sorry guys, just not true

Posted by: Anonymous

sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 01:07 PM

http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/an_empty_force.htm

since there's no evidence to support these invisible forces, it's almost redundant trying to disprove them, but some people are tenacious, and of course wont even believe documented science experiments.
the youngest published scientist of her time was 12 years old, and was easily able to show that invisible forces such as touch therapy were fake using a double blind experiment.
Embarrassed enough? Look at experiments in transcendental meditation, and while your at it, feng shui
theres nothing as unreliable as your own perception
Posted by: laf7773

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 01:44 PM

I don't believe you can move things or people with out touching them either. That is NOT a function of chi.

If the medical benefits of chi were a fabrication or a figment of the imagination. Then why are hospitals paying for certain members of staff to attend a 3+yr college for acupuncture? Why does the military offer tae chi and yoga for pain and stress relief?

What experience do you personally have with internal arts?

What purpose does your post serve? Other than to reaffirm what has already been said HERE on this very board?

As for no evidence supporting the existence of chi. We could go back and forth all day posting links to "academic" sources for both sides of the argument.

Please feel free to post any experiments that PROVE acupuncture doesn't work.

I've been on the receiving end of PP KOs. While i'm not a supporter of using such techniques effectively in a real situation i'm also not one to "play the game" in order to convince others something works.

The problem is people like you take a test like this one, that has NOTHING to do with chi, and try to apply it to a broader scale. This article doesn’t disprove the existence of chi. It only proves what we have been saying all along, you can’t use chi to move things or people. Chi is not a supernatural power, nor does it constitute any kind of “psychic event”.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 02:16 PM

Wow! So the empty force had some kind of an effect on 2 people? Lol, just kidding. I for one never thought ki could move an object. No.

I saw that test on therapuetic touch done by the little girl on a show on TV. On the same program they performed a test to see if external qi could influence the growth of bacteria in a petri dish. They used a supposed advanced qigong teacher, a sham qigong practitioner, and therepuetic touch practitioners for a control and comparison, the same therapuetic touch practioners who falied the girls experiment. The results indicated that only the external qi qigong teacher could influnce the bacteria, either positively or negatively. But the show admitted itself that the result do not show conclusive proof. It would require much more study and analysis and larger groups to study. They made a point of that on the show when talking about the external qi experiment. However, they totally downplayed that fact during the segment on the therapeutic touch and the little girls experiment.

Here is an article which explains how the logic of skeptic debunkers, such as the Amazing Randi, is incorrect and not really scientific at all.
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/GTaylor1.php

I'm not saying I beleive qi can move people in a real situation, but only that many aspects of it are not at all disproven, and shown to be useful. Saying it is, would be like saying an IMAist could never beat an MMAist, you don't know for sure, it's never really happened. I think the problem is people think it is actually about creating qi balls and throwing them, and that is not the case at all.

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Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 02:23 PM

Also, if a scientist proved a philosphy or practice in western medicine was not quite correct, or an understanding of a disease wasn't totally right, they will change it. It does not prove them to be nonsense. Just cause therapeutic touch had some understandings that may not be toally right does not totally disprove the practice as nothing more than placeobo. That takes scientific analyses, not just saying, " you didn't do exactly what you said you would do by your own standards and claims, so that makes you a fraud" . You can't just test method in simplistic ways, and then claim because it does not totally conform to the person being tested's understanding of it, that it is false.

Here are some articles of tests just as scientific, and just as double blind as a skeptic debunker test anyways. Neither are final conclusive proof, only preliminary http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/psufalundafa/homepage/meditation%20&%20medical%20research .htm

Of course, being skeptical of ki blasts is a good thing. But qigong is not that

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Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 02:50 PM

The first published study, to ever show behavour can have a positive effect on immunity to viruses, studied Tai Chi. http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/A/20036202.html

From a site called PubMed, National Library of medicine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1353653&dopt=Abstract

Articles about energy development technology http://spectrum.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/3/149 http://www.diamondhead.net/sbtm.htm http://www.somatics.de/Oshman.htm

Heat and electricity seem part of the spectrum of qi. It is why hot will go to cold and vice versa, and not something else. Energy expresses itself according to qi balance. http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8070042
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 02:55 PM

We could go back and forth all day posting links to academic sources for both sides of the argument.
humor me

the following is a quote by robert l park, a leading authority on voodoo science / pseudo science / junk science
Much of what is termed alternative medi cine is part of this ancient wisdom myth. We are somehow expected to believe, for example, that long before it was known that blood circulates or that germs cause disease, people had determined the precise locations of hundreds of acupuncture points, and catalogued the diseases that can be treated by stimulating them. In fact, long before vivisection was first practiced, Chinese medicine included elaborate charts showing meridians on the human body, imaginary lines along which the acupuncture points are distributed. The problem is simply that nothing can be found in actual human physiology that corresponds in any way to these meridians.
basic rule of thumb: if it's not testable, it's not true
Are you conceeding that chi exists, but it has no measureable effect?

Also, read up on placebo effects, they do more than you'd think.
The military offers tai chi and yoga because it relieves pain and stress, you answered your own question.
(maybe the military could offer masturbation classes?)

does acupuncture on animals disprove the placebo effect? no!
read up on good student / expectant teacher effects in a psychology book next time you're in the science section of your library (god forbid).

the effects of accupuncture can be felt by any sort of needle stuck into the same general viscinity because of the chemicals it causes the body to release.

Millions of dollars are spent investing on voodoo science, even by the government(/hospitals/etc.). If they prove false, then theyre out some money... if they win, they win big, so its an investment that is worth it in their eyes.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 02:57 PM

IMA is not DGBZ

Here is post quoted from another discussion board, posted by my friend who I know, who teaches TCM.-

" Qi has been subjected to this kind of cross cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity. No-one who understood what is implied by Qi would say they don't beleive in it. Saying you don't beleive in Qi is like saying you don't beleive in 'relationship' or "influence".

Qi is an old idea. The model I will try to explain is at least 2300 years old as it is clearly laid out in the Huangdi Neijing, the seminal work of chinese medicine. While essentially a medical text it also lays out a metaphysical model that is basic to chinese philosophy. The oldest character for Qi represented vapours rising. In time the radical for grain was placed below to show the steam that rises from cooking millet. What happens when you smell food cooking? Your body responds; stomach gurgles, mouth waters, etc. So something about cooking food exerted influence on you. Qi.

What is the nature of this influence? It requires that we introduce two other philosophical concepts that have been subject to ideational mutilation, Yin and Yang. We often see the simplistic folk models of Yin and Yang that are lists of things associated with the two concepts. ( Yin is feminine, cool, dark, receptive/ Yang is masculine, warm, light, creative). These lists are not strictly wrong, yet they obscure the reason the lists were made in the first place.

' Between heaven and earth are qi and it's laws' ; between Yin and Yang are Qi and it's laws'. This classic statement points to the most important aspect of Qi, it's context. So qi is the interplay of Yin and Yang. This brings us back to the nature of Yin and Yang.

Yin is the tendency of things in the universe to coalesce and slow down. Yin is the tendency to crystalization and struction. Yin is the tendacy of matter to fall down and shadows to form in opposition to light.

Yang is the tendency for things to change and become other things. The tendency to dissolve and tendency to grow. The tendency for clouds to boil and skin to tan.

All objects of sense experience are an interplay of Yin and Yang. This includes individual things as well as systems. This is why the concept of Taiji is the great terminus or the grand ultimate, because it includes all things in the universe. Yin and Yang are linked and one cannot be discussed without invoking the other. Structure cannot be divorced from function.

They stand in mutual opposition.
They are rooted in each other.
They define each others limit.
They transform into one another.

When we discuss the balance of Yin and Yang at any given moment or in any given state we are talking about Qi. It is important to understand that Yin and Yang are not absolute states of being, rather they are part of a moving frame that can applied in a variety of ways to any situation. There are many situations where the place of Yin and Yang is considered to be understood and relatively predictable so they are left out of the discussion. One of these places is in the context of the relationship between body and mind.

When we look at the basic idea of body and mind in Chinese philosophy we are talking about Jing(essense), and Shen( spirit, or summation of mental-emotional aspects of the individual). The relative interaction of Jing and Shen is the normal context for the discussion of Qi in martial arts. When someone says 'lead qi to your fingertips" the implication is to focus the mind on the fingertips to perceive the interaction between Jing and Shen at that point, hence qi. However, you could also say, ' absorb the opponents force to use their strength against them.' In this case Yin is found in the reception and relaxed connection of the defender ( song) , and the Yang is found in the aggresor's force( Li). The resulting Qi is how the interaction plays out. If the defender is subtle and skilled the qi will be the qi of a throw perhaps. If the aggressor is more subtle or skilled the result may be the qi of a successful hit.. If the aggressor is very subtle they may be able to become more Yin that the defender and so invert the frame of Yin and Yang.

So to come back to the idea 'Do you beleive in qi?' may be more usefully phrased, ' Do you beleive in the interplay of structure and fuction? Do you beleive in the interaction of order and chaos?"

Anyways, that's one post I found interesting. So it sounds like one of the first classifications of Yin and Yang, supposedly had to do with sunlight vs. a shadow, or light vs, dark. This is because through history, teachers would teach mankind through oracles such as the I ching, and possibly used prisms to teach about oneness. Such as how everything is vibration , and octaves. Galaxies, stars, planets, moons, humans, light, matter, vapour, sound. The emperors had no problem with this as long as they could become immortal, lead be turned to gold, or if their futures could be predicted.

Qigong is cultivation of the mind's place in the universe, to be open to all power all creation, flowing. Buddhas, and cultivators of buddhahood do a meditation posture in which the first finger bends down to connect to the thumb, symbolising the ego's will bowing to the will of heaven. The Tao has the way of wu wei, action through non action, doing things in accordance with the eternal Tao and nature, and not through self, or the human mind's will. Jesus said you reap what you sow, but that it would be full, pressed down and overflowing. In a Path that became religous over time, there was a saying( in reference to the universal spirit), " your will be done, not mine, in me and through me", and goes on to say, " show me what I must do this day to be a channel of your blessing to all." The more consciouss of the eternal manifestiation of the great priciple, that which creates, consitutes, governs, sustains and contains all, the more in accordance to it's way and flow someone can be, in my understanding. Which can use both physical and mental activities.

I think the Taoist cultivation is quite concerned with pre natal qi- http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/IChing_and_dna.htm

These clips show that Taiji is related to opening and closing the chest and internal body. Creating Yin and Yang( up and down) from Taiji. And also related to breathing, as well as opening and closing, microcosmic circular energy flow http://vc4.hit.bg/taiji_cinna_1.avi http://vc4.hit.bg/taiji_cinna_2.avi

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Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 03:08 PM

Also, read up on placebo effects, they do more than you'd think.
The military offers tai chi and yoga because it relieves pain and stress, you answered your own question.

Do they offer sugar pills too?

Qi can be felt quite strongly in practice, and this is not at all hypnotism or wanting to beleive. So since I feel it and practice it, I will not be convinced it is a placebo that simply.

IMO and as I understand-
The great principle, is that which creates, constitutes, governs, sustains, and contains all within all.

There are laws of the absolute, and laws of the relative.

Absolute laws or the Great Law. The same law governs everything from biggest to smallest, beginning and end. Life, mind, truth, love, is all, four points of the base of a pyrymid in a specific order with spirit at the tip as one. All is vibration.

The laws of the relative are law of polarity, law of rythm, law of cause and effect, law of gender.

There is also the law of evolution, like 10 steps forwrd 9.9 steps back, SORT OF, and law of love.

There is a so called principle of inter- generation, inter-inhibition. And creation, stasis, degeneration, destruction.

Ultimately ki is related to the principle of the oldest name of God. Yod He Vau He. It is know in many cultures, Yawheh, jehova, and Ya Ho Wa Ho are afew. The interplay father, mother, son, and universal holy spirit reborn. All is vibration, and octaves of it. http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/trigrams/archetypes.htm

IMO qigong is ancient and prehistoric culture. The perfect condition is inflowing and outflowing cultivation at the same time. Some qigong starts by connecting to the universe, through the palms, feet, ba hui, or even fingers in mudra positions( fingers are like antennas). Some qigong is very concerned with inward cultivation and sealing the senses, cultivating lotus position and pointing fingers inwards towards the wrists like a hollow fist or hands at dantien. But I think perhaps cultivating lotus position, with energy flowing out the hands is a more advanced posture.

Qi practices also circulate energy and connect flows and acupoints, this is why if you bend forward you will next bend back, if you open you will next close.

So atlantis and ancient civilisations were destroyed, but some remnants of the culture remained. The knowledge had to be kept hidden to kings and emperors while the people with the knowledge could still work in society, either teaching about spirituality, or working to improve the world in other ways. Gypsies had the tarot card, which start and end with the fool card, a fool for the universal will. The Kaballah is also related as well as the I ching.
http://www.prs.org/gallery-kabblh.htm
http://chikungintl.com/+-trigramcl.jpg
http://kabooom.com/laterheaven2.gif
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec16.html http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/facult...ry/chemistr.htm

There were many prophecies in the past about the current age. Many qigong methods were to be kept absolutely secret until this millenium.
http://www.keysofenoch.org/html/giza_update.html http://www.lyghtforce.com/Giza/ http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/edgar_cayce.htm

Ancient spiritual groups in the past

http://essenes.net/lifein.html http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html http://www.edgarcayce.org/ancient_mysteries/ancient_index.html

Some cool clips here from 1700 year old qigong from China and Tibet http://www.threegeese.com/qipage3.html http://www.possiblesociety.org/dayanqigong.htm

Hopi prophecy http://www.crystalinks.com/hopi2.html http://www.clearwisdom.net/eng/2000/nov/20/scf112000_1.html http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/21/6096.html http://www.railriders.com/store/article/18?&archive_link=yes
http://www.atlantis.to/spirituality-articles.htm

History to repeat itself? http://www.climatehotmap.org/photos/index.html

Check out how similar the Dayan qigong posture at the very bottom of this page, is to Yoga http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html

And WKK's 18 Lohan hands are very similar to Yoga http://wongkk.com/chikung/lohan.html

Yoga http://www.yoga-videos.net/ http://www.atlantis.to/Products/about-tibetan-yoga.htm http://www.yoga-tibet.com/index.html

Qigong http://www.threegeese.com/qipage3.html http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong.html http://www.qinway.org http://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm

All these styles have been kept very secret throughout history

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Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 03:58 PM

it's pleasant idea and all, but how is the history of qi and ideas of yin and yang helping your discussion?
chi is related to elecricity? there's nothing magnetic in our body!
::sigh::
it's super cool that you're linking me to yoga videos and all, but now resting all of chi on an ultimate and omnipotent god doesnt provide any more truth.
i thought this board would be fun
Posted by: laf7773

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 04:42 PM

How old are you? You don't seem to be able to follow what we are saying. Your opinion of this seems to only come from discussions and testing that you don't seem to understand.

So how exactly has chi been disproved? How is doing tai chi and yoga for pain relief a placebo?

Maybe you can explain the physical effects felt from doing qigong exercises? Mind you i was never told what to look for. When i first started this type of exercise all i was given was the steps of the exercise and told to write and tell him what i felt. How could be experience be the same as every other practitioner if i didn't know what they felt?

Like i said, what experience do YOU have with any of this? People are real quick to judge something till they experience it themselves.

One more thing. I hope you have more business here than this, otherwise your trolling. So come up with some valid proof or go study for your driving test.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 04:46 PM

All is vibration. Kabbalah and I ching are probably connected. Divination oracles, concerned with a path back to oneness in the universe literally. The founder of calculus, and binary mathematics studied the I ching apparently. It is a real system of Qi.
http://www.69yinyang.com/ICscience/scientists.html
http://www.bioching.com/iching/
http://www.gwizdala.art.pl/a3/rgb/hexagramms.php

QIgong is from advanced culture, not superstition or primitive thinking I beleive.

Underwater Megaliths in Atlantic Ocean bearing man made features- http://www.medioambiente.cu/museo/exmar5i.htm

Internal cross- http://www.medioambiente.cu/museo/exmar6i.htm

Picture- http://www.sptimes.com/2002/11/17/photos/wire-habit.jpg

Info on Underwater finds- http://www.nii.net/~obie/historygold.htm

High level, perhaps dangerous level power, terra forming? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/992589/posts http://www.s8int.com/water1.html http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/galleries/belize/photo2.html http://www.ambergriscaye.com/pages/town/greatbluehole.html http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2003/4/28/1582.html http://www.s8int.com/atomic1.html http://www.s8int.com/atomic2.html http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html

Redating the sphinx http://members.aol.com/davidpb4/sphinx1.html http://www.lyghtforce.com/Giza/

Giza Power- http://www.gizapower.com/Articles/door2.html http://www.gizapower.com/ http://www.gizapower.com/Articles/door.html
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 04:58 PM

I am not especially knowlegdeable about electricity or magnetism, but this article claim molecules are in essence, magnetic.
http://www.yorkkarate.com/Articles/Q%20i&%20Bioelectromagetic%20Energy.pdf

Here is an article about a device I have tried called the neuro scenar, it uses a from of energy on your body, through experience I say it feeld very similar to qi and is related. Perhaps someone more knowlegbale in such things can explain how a Scenar or even a TENS machine works with electricity on someone's body. The main difference is if you remove the machine the sensation immediately dissapears, whereas qi comes on gradually, but still gets just as strong or stronger. http://www.diamondhead.net/sbtm.htm

WHy do we percieve things in terms of up and down, hot and cold, and why do the two dissolve and change into one another. Could it not be written donw in a theoretical path?

Also, ancient cultures had incredible knowledge of the earth and feng shui. You don't know that all cultures in the past thought earth was flat. The ancient people of Teotahuacan created their Pyramid in proprtions on P{lanetary meridians. I beleive the layout of Teotahuacan is a perfect cube in the proprtions of 1/ 100th of the earths surface. No one can say for sure how they measured it. Meridian in english, usually refers to planetary lines. The Tao shool of qigong views the human body to be a microcosm of the bigger universe.
http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2.htm

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Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 05:06 PM

since there's no evidence to support these invisible forces, it's almost redundant trying to disprove them

This was the first thing said on the thread. I don't intend to flame, but I think this could be an example of the flawed thinking of extraordinary claims need extraordinary prove
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 05:55 PM

This guys just a troll, I wouldnt bother talking to him.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 06:28 PM

This was the first thing said on the thread. I don't intend to flame, but I think this could be an example of the flawed thinking of extraordinary claims need extraordinary prove

something with no proof needs no disproof, yet disproof has been provided because of people who are adamant about these kinds of things. i'm not trying to be a troll.
do i have experience with any of this?
i'd say i do, my father ascribes to qi gong and has spent many years at yoga temples, and practices both, and my mothers has been doing yoga all her life as well.

the result? stretching is great, yoga and qi gong are calming, but this has done nothing for their physical health other than flexibility, and most certainly nothing for their mental health. how the hell can you be relaxed when there are so many unseen forces acting on your life? lets pay triple the money for plain baking soda and sea salt because it comes from the health food store and says natural on it.

Your opinion of this seems to only come from discussions

what?

some food for thought:
Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope (The Placebo Prescription by Margaret Talbot, New York Times Magazine, January 9, 2000).

*burp*

go study for your driving test.

dont need to, seeing as i already passed when i was a kid
Posted by: laf7773

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 06:50 PM

Try not to misquote me.

[QUOTE]Your opinion of this seems to only come from discussions and testing that you don't seem to understand.[/QUOTE]

Again, what experience do YOU have? How old are you? Everything you have posted is purely opinion or has nothing to do with chi.

Either provide proof from an accredited academic source that chi doesn't exist or this discussion is over.

I have asked you two specific questions. You have answered neither. Stop trolling or get out of this forum section.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 09:24 PM

Skeptic22.

Just for the record, the discussion here is held, in my time-zone, at about 12.15 p.m. on Dec. 28th, 2004. So even from different parts of the world, we see time differently -- I am living in the future from your point of view. Nothing radical here, just a simple observation. But, a lot of phenomena and their existence or otherwise are nothing but observations, and what is observed and what can be concluded from those observations are two very different things and ultimately also depends on the observer's standpoint.

So, If I am correct to conclude from what you have posted, you do not believe or rather have evidence to support that 'chi' as understood by IMA students do not exist; or put another way, there is no evidence that 'chi' exist. Lets leave out voodoo which has no relevance here.

From the standpoint of the non-existence of having a scientific 'chi-detecting' instrument at this moment in the history of modern science does not mean or that a definite conclusion can be drawn that 'chi' does not exist. It does not prove that 'chi' does not exist; only its non-detection by the scientific instruments presently available. The human body can detect infrared radiation (heat) and ultra-violet rays (when we get a sunburn) so why not 'chi'; unless of course you wish to conclude or is concluding or implying that all IMA students are suffering from a wide-spread world-wide collective self-delusion? bordering perhaps on pandemic insanity and that you or others like you are the only sane ones left to carry the human race scientifically forward; perhaps you are, I have the open-mindedness not to discount even that.

X-Rays, Gamma Rays, Ultra-Violet Rays, Micro-Waves and recently Neutrinos have been bombarding the planet Earth for as long as the planet has been in existence (perhaps a few billion years?) and when did scientific humans invent the scientific instruments sensitive enough to detect them? Perhaps we can conclude that prior to the invention of these instruments, all the above rays and waves did not exist? This will follow from what you said earlier, namely, "...if it is not testable, it is not true..."

As great a scientific mind as Albert Einstein himself had through out a great part of his life tried to disprove or argued against the principles formulated in quantum physics and, as history have since shown, failed. But that does not in any way down grade his scientific genius, only that he was mistaken; or that scientific knowledge during his life-time was still rudimentary on the subject in question.

It is the height of arrogance to conclude that we, at this early scientific juncture of our evolution, know all there is to know on a subject like, say, 'chi' based on a few 'debunking experiments' However I do agree that these experiments, however distastefull to IMA students, should continue.

Remember, the practice of 'chi' involves the mind in its subtle interaction with the body. You may not agree that 'chi' as understood by IMA students exist because you probably have not done any serious long-term practice or cultivation of it (say I am wrong if that is not the case) but I am sure you will agree at the very least that we are still very very far away from concluding we know all there is to know about the fundamental aspects of the human mind itself, let alone its subtle interaction with the body which holds it.

Just one last question -- please explain in some detail your conclusion that acupuncture on animals do not disprove the placebo effect.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 10:57 PM

Quote from Butterfly Palm: "From the standpoint of the non-existence of having a scientific 'chi-detecting' instrument at this moment in the history of modern science does not mean or that a definite conclusion can be drawn that 'chi' does not exist."

There is probably technology for detecting chi/ki energy in secret government bases like Area 51 and Dulce, New Mexico. Look it up on a search engine and you will probably find some files on it.

-Joe-
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/27/04 11:02 PM

Even if you dont think you are a troll you are. You came in and made inflammitory comments, and proved a points armed with the weapons of ignorance and assumption.

An troll is any individual that goes onto a forum and posts inflamitory remarks only ot create an argument. If this isnt what you are intending, then what the hell do you think your doing?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/28/04 02:30 AM

Huh.

If the placebo is that powerful, then there is alot to it! Do not say it's JUST a placebo.

Also, Taiji and qigong can physically vitalise IME.



[This message has been edited by serious pain (edited 12-28-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/28/04 05:48 AM

it's all bullbutter...plleease.. you watch too much tv
Posted by: nenipp

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/28/04 11:40 AM

As someone described already, the feeling of qi is very strong when training qigong (not from day one, obviously), so what could be more real for me than something I experiance and feel myself?
I believe in many phenomena/things with far less evidence than that.
The relaxation and breathing in itself guarantee that the training is beneficial to my health, for that I'm not dependant on qi to be objectically (is that a word?) real, but the training wouldn't be interesting enough for me without the qi-feeling... and come to think of it, I'd train even without the health effects.
So I guess what I'm saying is:
take away the health effects and I'll go on training, but take away the qi-feeling and I'll do something else next month for sure!
Posted by: Reiki

Re: sorry guys, just not true - 12/28/04 01:26 PM

Nicely put guys. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Lane: I apologise for the following observations but I had to comment.

This guy's obviously from another planet or has the broken record that keeps going "prove it.. prove it..." and keeps missing the point either intentionally or because he doesn't read / understand the points you've made.

I'm sure you could tell all the patients I have treated with reiki that they were feeling nothing while I was treating them, [they all said they felt like they were being heated up from the inside, even the ones that DIDN'T believe in ki] but hey you know everything so I'm sure that this will come as no surprise. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

So then you come on this forum making inflamatory comments about the other serious IMA here. If you are a serious martial artist then get back to training and stop being a pain in the butt for the mods. Maybe you should consider learning an IMA, I'm sure that it would help you with your anger management.