I need a quick anatomy lesson

Posted by: Anonymous

I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/04/04 10:36 AM

This new thread comes in response to the last parts of fisherman's cool down thread.

Concerning the "pelvic floor": There seems to be two sets of muslces down there (that i can currently control). One closer to the tail bone and one more centered with the spine. I think the centered one is the hui yin (perineum). At first i was raising the muslces by the tailbone (sorry dont know the name of them), but have been trying to focus more on the hui yin. Sometimes this works, sometimes i end up raising them both at the same time.

One thing i noticed that was interesting, is the ability to control this seems depend on whether you are standing or sitting with legs crossed. I can directly access the hui yin separate from the tailbone muscles when sitting legs crossed. For me its much harder to do so when standing. Perhaps this is why they say qi can escape with reverse breathing if you arent sitting cross-legged?


My questions are:

Do the tailbone and perenium muslces together comprise what has been termed the pelvic floor?

In reverse breathing and other IMA exercises that access this region, what is the proper way to raise these muscles?

Should we be raising one of the muscle groups or both?

It know it can get confusing since there are chinese, japanese, indian, and english names for all of these muscles.

I would like to invite anyone to add their perspectives on these muscle groups which are important to IMA, and share their terminology. This could help us to understand one another in future disccusions.

Thanks in advance,

~ed
Posted by: Bossman

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/04/04 11:58 AM

Hi Ed

I was taught that the correct way to align the tailbone and close the hui yin was to pull in the lower abdominal muscles. This pulls the pubicoxygeal muscle in a natural way.

If you stand sideways on to a mirror you will see how effectively this works without destroying the rest of your posture.

I was taught that to pull the perenium muscle in an unnatural way was dangerous.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/04/04 06:30 PM

Ed
Bossman is right. There are muscle within the abdominal cavity that are attached to the bottom of the pelvis. I believe thaat these are call the soad or psoad (spelling?) muscles. They are muscles that you would not use under normal circumstances. I could be wrong, (my knowlege of the anatomy is not super in depth) but I belive that they help to hold up the organs.

Gotta get to class...

Chris
Posted by: nenipp

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/05/04 01:41 AM

Anatomy lesseon you asked for, anatomy lesson you'll get :O)

-the psoas muscle is a part of the hip flexor (the muscle that among other things lifts your leg, iliopsoas)

-pelvic floor muscles have various functions, such as
*holding up the organs of the abdominal cavity
*in coordination with the upper diaphragm regulate the intra-abdominal pressure.
Here comes into play also the (transversus abdominis) deep abdominal muscle, which is triggered via reflex upon activation of the pelvic floor (BTW p.f. can essentially be regarded as one, my guess is that the tailbone muscle you've found is the anal sphincter)
Next step (of importance to intra abdominal pressure and spinal stability) is tension (from contraction of transversus abdominis)
in the thoracolumbal fascia, which in turn (via reflex again) activates the deep dorsal muscles, such as the multifidi (among others)
*the pelvic floor muscles can also help you in times of need, when you're not close to a bathroom )

So you see, activating the pelvic floor muscles help you gain spinal stability via the deep muscular system, leaving the long, strong dynamic muscles relaxed and free to be utilised for movement.
This is imho more effective than pushing in your lower abdomen, because that cannot be done without activating more superficial parts of the abdominal muscles (rectus- and obliquus abdominis) and unnecessary tension in them will effect freedom of movement and breath.

If this post smells of besserwisser, it's just because I know so much )



[This message has been edited by nenipp (edited 08-05-2004).]
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/05/04 08:25 AM

Hey nenipp, great description!

"*the pelvic floor muscles can also help you in times of need, when you're not close to a bathroom"

LOL. Or on a long road trip I suppose

"This is imho more effective than pushing in your lower abdomen, because that cannot be done without activating more superficial parts of the abdominal muscles (rectus- and obliquus abdominis) and unnecessary tension in them will effect freedom of movement and breath."

Great point. This is why the movement is 'internal'.

Where exactly do you get your knowlege of anatomy if you don't mind me asking?

Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/05/04 09:01 AM

Thanks guys for the excellent replies.

anyways, the bathroom analogy worked, I know exactly where the pelvic floor muscle group is. I think the hui yin is part of that. Years of drinking too much water and gatorade, have tought me to use this well.

This brings up another question though,
When doing taoist breathing and holding up the hui yin and pelvic floor, have you ever noticed your abdominals start to tremble after 5-6 minutes of the breathing practice?
Is that normal and indictiave of training internal muscles or am i doing the breathing practice incorrectly?

~ED
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/05/04 08:56 PM

When I first started doing Bagua, I used to get these trembles all over my body. The best bet is to relax through them. Just as long as you don't feel any pain everything should be ok. Eventually the trembling should subside.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/06/04 02:06 AM

fisherman, sorry I can't give you a reference (book or www), it's just stuff I know (has to do with what I do for a living)

MrEd, the way I've been thaught to do taoist breathing is to completely relax when I exhale, perhaps you leave (intentionally or not) tension in the abdominal region, exhausting the muscles and thus making them tremble after a few minutes.
Unless you've been instructed otherwise, might I suggest trying to relax the abs and pelvic-floor muscles when you exhale?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/06/04 08:10 AM

I think you are both right. After my tai chi class the other day where the instructor talked about relaxation, it dawned on me that the trembling was counter to the relaxation that is the key to IMA. So i've tried to relax through them as you suggested. I have been releasing the pelvic floor on exhale wheni practice, but when i concentrate on the dan tien, i think my concentration causes me to tense the area slighlty. Oh, well, gotta keep practicing.

Maybe this deserves another thread, but how do you guys concentrate on areas such as the dan tien? When i concentrate, i imagine condensing the region and trying to focus on its center, and use visualization to imagine my breath/energy flowing in to it. I'm curious how other people do it....

Thanks for the info guys!

~ED
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/06/04 09:54 AM

...but when i concentrate on the dan tien, i think my concentration causes me to tense the area slighlty.

ED,
You may very well be right about this. Not long after I started doing Baguazhang, my teacher said this to me:
Don't think too much about feeling or all you will feel is your thinking.
I hope this makes sense, it took a while for it to sink in on me. IMO, if we put excessive focus on an area of the body it may cause it to tense. First comes relaxation, after you feel you are relaxed is when you can start to let your mind work. (Just a side note; don't loose feeling of the rest of your body when you are focusing on an area. We are looking for whole body connection right?)

...but how do you guys concentrate on areas such as the dan tien?

Last year I did a weekend seminar in Denver with Luo Dexiu. He said that this type of internal work is all about the mind and bringing it into the body.
It is the sensation that the mind is placed at the Tan Tien that you need to attain. When the mind is there and you are relaxed you should feel the natural movement of the body. It is a very subtle feeling, this is why you must be relaxed in order to feel it. If there is any tension within the body you will not be able to 'feel' the mind enter the Tan Tien.

Boy, I hope that this makes some sense. If there is further explanation needed just let me know. This is a rather deep subject (no pun intended), and it takes a while to grasp.

Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/06/04 10:56 AM

Fisherman,

Yes, that makes sense. If i understand you, it means that when focusing on an area, you have to focus on it and on relaxing it at the same time. I guess this is one of the uses of breath coordination, with each influx of oxygen, you can use it to re-achieve relaxation.

This discussion has also made me more confused, which is a good thing.

Is the concept of storing chi in the dan tien only synomous to increasing awareness of this area, or can you actually influence the electrical conductivity of the area?

When i started getting the trembling a few weeks back i marked it as progress in the realm of electrical storage, now that i have been relaxing past the contractions, my whole body feels very oxygenated after practicing taoist breathing, but no electricity in my belly so to speak. Maybe this part takes years to acquire.

In my mind, there seems to be two different approaches to IMA. The stable structure approach, and the store chi in dan tien and circulate (small/grand circulatoin). Maybe these two are the same or reach the same goal and i cant make the connection yet.

I'm too confused to ask a question at this point, but any feedback will be welcomed.

~ED
Posted by: nenipp

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/07/04 10:04 AM

On concentrating on points, I agree that you shouldn't be too "active" (think too much), more like passive, observing concentration.

On the other hand, having the feeling that you breathe through the point reminds me of a great exercise that I'd like to share with you:

Exercising some major points/areas of the microcosmic orbit (eg hui jin, ming men, middle gate, upper gate, bai hui, upper dan tien, middle dan tien and finally lower dan tien), "breathing" a few minutes through each point really helps develop a feel for the orbit.

It would be really hard to describe the feeling I get in the points (areas) when I concentrate on them, I don't think I could do it very well even in my native language, maybe it's better that anyone who is dedicated enough finds their own feeling, I don't know?

About:
"In my mind, there seems to be two different approaches to IMA. The stable structure approach, and the store chi in dan tien and circulate (small/grand circulatoin). Maybe these two are the same or reach the same goal and i cant make the connection yet"

Me neither, that's one reason I keep my qigong medical and my arts martial ) so to speak. Maybe some of the more seasoned members would be willing to comment?

[This message has been edited by nenipp (edited 08-07-2004).]
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/09/04 09:04 AM

Happy Monday...
Hope everyone had a great weekend!

ED wrote...
"Is the concept of storing chi in the dan tien only synomous to increasing awareness of this area, or can you actually influence the electrical conductivity of the area?"

Both. If you increase the awareness of an area you will begin to feel it more. The trick is, you can't 'cheat'. Cheating would be considered the flexing or application of tesion to a muscular group. In this, all you will feel is the muscle when you should be feeling the entire area.
After an amount of time the area will become more sensitive and this, IMO, is when you begin to feel a difference in the frequency of the electrical conductivity of the area.

ED wrote...
"When i started getting the trembling a few weeks back i marked it as progress in the realm of electrical storage, now that i have been relaxing past the contractions, my whole body feels very oxygenated after practicing taoist breathing, but no electricity in my belly so to speak. Maybe this part takes years to acquire. "

After you have practice the breath enough your body should start to become acustomed to it. IMO, this is where you begin to relax your attention on the breathing and try and 'empty your mind'. The more you can relax and think of nothing the more progress you will make in feeling the internal changes. Doing not doing - wei wu wei.

ED wrote...
"In my mind, there seems to be two different approaches to IMA. The stable structure approach, and the store chi in dan tien and circulate (small/grand circulatoin). Maybe these two are the same or reach the same goal and i cant make the connection yet."

I agree that there are 2 major approaches, the martial and esoteric. But at some point both of them must converge for training to make progress.
IMHO, there is a reason why internal methods have been both martial and healthy in the same practice. To neglect one is to neglect a vital piece of the art.

To me progress is setting a goal within my training. Once I have reached that goal I set another, more challenging goal. The methods that I need to use to acheive the goal can varry. It could be more martially involved or esoterically involved. This is why I must train on both side of the coin per say; so I may acheive my goals and get the entire coin, (what is the entire coin though, lol).

I guess the first thing to find out is what you want out of your training, set the goals to get there, and learn the different methods available to acheive those goals. And then get after it, we only have so much time here right?

Chris

[This message has been edited by Fisherman (edited 08-09-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/09/04 09:15 AM

Nicely put!

~MrEd
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/10/04 09:10 AM

One more quick anatomy question for you guys....

i have been recently focusing on breathing deep and light so that i can barely feel the air stream under my nose. But unfortnately when trying to coordinate that with abdominal movements, i'm finding its hard to get as much air into my lower lungs as with a more forced breath. It actually feels like i can breathe slow and light to a point and then it gets blocked and i cant fill to maximum capacity.

Question: Is this a matter of better training these muscles (to make them stronger, more open, and offer less resistance) to allow a slow breath to fill up easier? Or does this point to needing to relax more?

To go off on another one of my silly speculations, i think its a matter of training the muscles so they end up acting like an air pump, maybe this is more energetically efficicent then sucking air in through the nose and trachea as much.

Interested what everyone else thinks...

~MrEd
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson - 08/10/04 02:31 PM

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by MrEd
One thing i noticed that was interesting, is the ability to control this seems depend on whether you are standing or sitting with legs crossed. I can directly access the hui yin separate from the tailbone muscles when sitting legs crossed. For me its much harder to do so when standing. Perhaps this is why they say qi can escape with reverse breathing if you arent sitting cross-legged?
[/QUOTE]

This is due to the shape of the spine and pelvic area while sitting like this. When standing this becomes one of the most hotly contested areas of the IMA's.

To butt-tuck or not to butt-tuck. Both camps have their own reasons for stating why they do or don't but(no pun intended) there is only one correct way to do it. This becomes very evident when trying to issue power in Pi quan for example. The alignment of this area is key to issuing the spinal wave that gets its power from the twisting of the legs and waist. If this area is not 'held' correctly the power (chi) will leak here.
Also remember there are always two(2) way to look at things yin/yang. Reverse breathing is great to stimulate the correct tissue while performing qigong, but it is also the basis for power in our xingyi. When we express power this pulling in of the dan tien and the forceful expression and expansion of the dan tien are key to transferring the power to the upper body.


[QUOTE]Originally Posted by MrEd
When doing taoist breathing and holding up the hui yin and pelvic floor, have you ever noticed your abdominals start to tremble after 5-6 minutes of the breathing practice?
Is that normal and indictiave of training internal muscles or am i doing the breathing practice incorrectly?
[/QUOTE]

This is normal when beginning to train this area. You are stretching and energizing the connective tissue. This is what is supposed to happen. You just need to not involve the muscles of the abdomen when performing the breaths. Only invlove the connective tissue and fascia.
The trembling will go away (if done correctly) and be replaced by a warm tingling sensation.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by MrEd
One more quick anatomy question for you guys....


i have been recently focusing on breathing deep and light so that i can barely feel the air stream under my nose.
[/QUOTE]
Good,very good. Also try to pull the air in by pulling down with the diaphragm.


[QUOTE]Originally Posted by MrEd
But unfortnately when trying to coordinate that with abdominal movements, i'm finding its hard to get as much air into my lower lungs as with a more forced breath. It actually feels like i can breathe slow and light to a point and then it gets blocked and i cant fill to maximum capacity.
[/QUOTE]

The more you pull with the diaphragm the stronger this action will get and you won't want to breathe any other way.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by MrEd
Question: Is this a matter of better training these muscles (to make them stronger, more open, and offer less resistance) to allow a slow breath to fill up easier? Or does this point to needing to relax more?
/[/QUOTE]

Its not so much the muscles, but the diaphragm, connective tissue and fascia.


[QUOTE]Originally Posted by MrEd
To go off on another one of my silly speculations, i think its a matter of training the muscles so they end up acting like an air pump, maybe this is more energetically efficicent then sucking air in through the nose and trachea as much.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, this pump is the diaphragm, connective tissue and the fascia.

Great questions and great answers in this thread. I really feel like the forum is clicking right along now.


Kempoman

P.S.

Or you could just forget all this garbage and Power-up and throw a ki/jing ball/blast at them or maybe pyrokenesis their ass.