Iron Shirt

Posted by: pmac798

Iron Shirt - 12/31/00 07:44 PM

Hi,

I recently came across a book on Iron Shirt Chi Kung. The premise of the book looks interesting, but I am not sure what makes this "style" different than the others. Does anyone else have experience with Iron Shirt?
Posted by: Brewer

Re: Iron Shirt - 02/01/01 11:27 AM

You can find information on iron shirt type techniques in a book called,Kung Fu, History,Philosophy and Technique.I hope this helps.
Brewer
Posted by: qimaster

Re: Iron Shirt - 03/13/01 07:05 PM

regards Iron Shirt, never ever attempt to learn it from a book. there are a few places where you can learn it rather openly,
such as Juko Kai schools, and also Wing Lams
Hung Gar schools.

to try and attempt self study will only invite serious long term injury or death.

rm
Posted by: Brently Keen

Re: Iron Shirt - 06/15/01 01:53 PM

Better to spend your time learning how not to get hit.

BK
Posted by: Brewer

Re: Iron Shirt - 08/03/01 02:37 PM

Hello pmac798,
Never close your eyes to learning,no matter what it is that you are learning from,Books,video's and instuctors are all good sources of information.I've heard it said alot of times.You shouldn't learn or try to learn from a book,you have to find an instructor.Well, how did the originator of the style learn.He sure didn't have an instructor if he was the very first one to come up with the art.
Your Brother in the Arts [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Iron Shirt - 03/30/03 07:19 AM

A fellow by the name of Professor Thomas Keen has produced a book and video combo of Iron Vest Qigong, it is inexpensive and is of very good quality. The material is some of the best that I have seen. Broken down into very easy to follow sections and even has a log to chart your progress. Includes meditations, too. Iron Vest is not just for the making a body resilient to blows but helps cure and strengthen the body by promoting chi circulation throughout the entire body. The postures can help a bad back or neck, reduce high blood pressure, help cure a host of maladies like arthritis symptoms, etc and is a great substitute for weight training because it develops you internally, not externally, so you have real strength, especially if you combine the sets with the Iron Vest herbal formulation. Makes you strong like a bull. Good stuff [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Iron Shirt - 03/30/03 02:02 PM

Brewer, perhaps the originator learned from watching inexperienced people get hurt, then saying "Okay, that was the WRONG way."
Posted by: diadicic

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/05/03 10:30 AM

Ashton,

Do you know where to get the video book combo?

Thanks
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/05/03 04:02 PM

Iron shirt/vest/Golden Bell is a very dangerous qigong and should not be trained without supervision.
Posted by: swords

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/22/03 06:41 PM

don't feel bad bruce lee learned a lot from books and scrolls and diagrams just learn thorough well you know what I mean
Posted by: Ender

Re: Iron Shirt - 06/03/03 05:53 PM

Why not do both? Find an instructor AND read a book?

theres a solution, or maybe Im just crazy?
Posted by: Scholar

Re: Iron Shirt - 07/05/03 03:34 AM

I have read the book. The danger I believe is due to the Golden Buffalo, Golden Turtle positions, where extended forward bend over of torso affects veinous circultion. There is very good parts in there about standing posture and the sacral and cranial pumps.
Posted by: KC

Re: Iron Shirt - 08/17/03 02:59 PM

the iron shirt is very real but u will not find
the complete studies in a book or video.
u need to find a teaher but one must study
many years in order for the teaher to divulge
the infor related to the iron shirt i tell
u this it all start by first learning to
breathe from your abdomen and visualizing
the chi in it center,from there learning
to access the microcosmic orbit with a series
of anus tensing , sound homo ha this is not a
joke do your research. hope this was helpful
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Iron Shirt - 08/18/03 10:05 AM

3 key things here:
1. Some Qi Gong exercises are dangerous, no matter what some folks belive. I t can cause excessive heat in organs or in the head and can quite literally drive you crazy.
2. Find a qualified teacher and ask if they teach it.
3. Read a book to supplement what your teacher is showing you.
- It is vital to be under supervision by a qualified instructor. Many books (Iron Shirt Chi Kung - Mantak Chia) even state that they are not liable for negative side effects to improper practice.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Iron Shirt - 08/18/03 04:31 PM

Great advice Fisherman,

I have found mantak chia's books especially problematic. His Iron Shirt tends to cause running fire symptoms.

You can't learn this stuff from a book. Period.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Iron Shirt - 08/19/03 08:15 AM

Amen Kempoman
Most of Mantak Chia's 'Iron Shirt Chi Kung' is rather hard to interpret.
I think it is probably best to start with some basic Qi Gong like the 8 Brocades before moving on to the advanced stuff. This alows time for your mind and body to adjust.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/19/05 02:36 PM

I wonder if any one really knows if iron shirt techniques actually work or not..has ne one heard or the 7 secrets?? it's mostly breathing techniques which appear to work very well...has ne one used them? what did you think??
regards
tang soo
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/19/05 09:50 PM

Yes, iron shirt works...as does the golden bell and a method I call the YiLi shield.

Those who say that you cannot learn it from books are right.

Is it a big secret? Not at all...It's just that most don't want to undergo the training, once they find out it requires a period of celibacy.

chufeng
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/19/05 11:25 PM

I agree with qimaster kempo and fish this is a very dangerous style of chi gung and should only be done with a qualified instructor.
Posted by: BaguaMonk

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/07/05 05:31 PM

I would learn it from authentic Shaolin teachers and nowhere else. Hung Gar is a good place to learn it, the Iron Wire form alone will develop it. But guess what, you must have been practicing for a LONG time, have the endurance and stamina, because it WILL kill you other wise.
Posted by: keodras

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/20/05 12:44 AM

Yes i do have experience with this technique "iron shirt" i use it often and i did self teach it makes it worth more to me if i teach myself as its a lesson ill soon never forget... i have used this tech many times in combat why bother dodgeing or trying not to get hit when you can let them hit you all they want only only do harm to themselfs its a useful tech when you know how to use it without leaving yourself open in any spot
Posted by: laf7773

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/20/05 01:45 AM

Some how i doubt your claims in iron shirt keodras. I really hope you have reviewed the ground rules at the top of the section.
Posted by: Rumble

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/20/05 08:40 PM

Iron shirt or robe technique will not make you impervious to injury. What it will do is to help you to take or absorb the hit better with minimal damage. I have learned some Iron robe technique with my Sifu and I can now take a hit from a wooden baseball bat with minimal damage. But no way can I not get seriously hurt by any sharp objects not even my sifu can do that. Oh and by the way I heard some stories from some poeple where they said there master could take a bullet with out getting hurt to me thats Bull sh!@#. The only person who can take a bullet and not get hurt is Superman lol.
Posted by: BaguaMonk

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/21/05 12:08 AM

Yes, bullets move too fast to not be hit with. It won't stop an experienced knife fighter from hitting you either. There are two methods, one of which is more physical based Iron shirt, and Golden Bell, which is a more internal. THe idea is that in Iron shirt, you are stiff and tense on the outside, but energy calmly flowing on the inside. While Golden Bell your skin is like cotton (The way it absorbs the energy being thrown at it) but inside your energy is furious with movement.

A shaolin monk once described his method that he was taught from his father, as being able to absorb the blow, literally into his "chi flow."

It won't make you superman, and it won't help much with headhits, except for some conditioning. The determination that comes from such rigorous training will certainly help in taking any blows. The idea is not to sit there while people hit on you, but it can certainly be used. For example, learning how to bounce and exhale the opponents fist right as it hits you is important, and many times their fist will break on you.

Also, it is not impervious to internal strikes.
Posted by: Hunter

Re: Iron Shirt - 05/21/05 03:11 PM

I started doing my research on Iron shirt. There IS alot of emphasis in the Iron shirt about strengthening the body for sudden and unexpected injury. Its an EXTREAMLY advanced tecnique and extreamly hard to learn. But it would be usefull in a fight, or just every day life.
Posted by: Tengri

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/02/07 12:45 AM

Quote:

A fellow by the name of Professor Thomas Keen has produced a book and video combo of Iron Vest Qigong, it is inexpensive and is of very good quality.




Thomas keen has two DVD with workbook. But the iron shirt is the green dragon iron vest. Its done, unlike the other sets they teach with NO tension. From the 18 daoist palms system he also has a Hay gung DVD which is 4 meditations. 2 hay gung and 2 neigong with % breath sequences. You do the closed eyed meditations back to back to activate the qi of the preceding hay gung which move the qi through the meridians or whatever the case may be with the exercise. It does not say it on those dvd but they were originally for resisting cuts from swords and blows from wooden objects. But done according to instructions, 5 minutes each meditation then the haygung, they are for health. This is a common theme with these sets and the iron body effect, although real can be over exaggerated. A meditation that opens the meridians can aid in health, but to deposit an excess of qi to store there to strengthen the areas covered by the meridians is a different story.

No one is going to develop iron body with wai dan hay gung alone. But its rare to find forms with the neigong, of which this set has. The green dragon iron vest has the neigong at the END. This exercise is called "old man makes medicine". It has movement so its not pure neigong but. You can simply sit with the hands formed the way illustrated on the knee's for inordinate periods of time BEFORE doing any hay gung and realize the more higher level benefits later on. The neigong builds up the energy and the haygung moves it around. This is the basic formula. However there are several ways of attaining, some better than others, some more strict than others. Basic health benefits simply mean 15-30 minutes a day. No sweat. Hours and hours of neigong for years before moving the qi around is another story.
Posted by: Tengri

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/02/07 12:55 AM

Quote:

Hi,

I recently came across a book on Iron Shirt Chi Kung. The premise of the book looks interesting, but I am not sure what makes this "style" different than the others. Does anyone else have experience with Iron Shirt?




This is a difficult issue. Mantak chia's methods are difficult to train. I could write a similar instruction with stick figures and fill only both sides of a pieces of normal sized paper. This would be a "water path" method using similar structure. That being said, the title iron shirt is someone, unintentionally (?) deceptive. What is shown as the animal exercises and postures are simply qi mustering exercises often found in other systems. Why we get iron vest from wai qi liaofa or kong jing or yizhichan qigong, I dont now. Well I do know but what I am saying is how are people using these "secret" forms when they are used for something else entirely? Perhaps the secret is that if your comparing notes with someone, you'll find your art has a health exercise that his art is teaching makes you invincible. In the yizhichan qigong there is always the same emphasis. Opening or stimulating the Renmai, Dumai and Daimai. This is "hidden" in the postures which effect these channels in some way. When you look at it at another perspective, a good qi flow and storage in these meridians will produce a iron vest. However this seems kind of silly and deceptive. If someone is implying that a routine for qi emission can make you invincible they have 2 problems. 1) so many people do the exercises throughout different arts. 2) if qi flow produces the iron vest effect then you must first have skill in detecting and sensing the flow of qi, ect, ect. Actually I think there are more than 2 issues there but why go through all of them. It will make sense the more you collect and research the methods. When you comprehend them, then it is safe for you to train them. Imagine having the recipie to make a cake but not knowing about the logical order of events nor the time needed for each section. You have the kitchen and oven and ingredients, or can gather then over time. But you wont produce the cake without knowing that you dont mix the oil into the flour without adding the other wet ingredients first. And about whipping the eggs or flouring the pan, ect. What you will end up is a mess. Thats the secret. Even with the book, kitchen and ingredients, not everyone can cook. Even with a teacher.
Posted by: Tengri

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/02/07 01:03 AM

Quote:

regards Iron Shirt, never ever attempt to learn it from a book. there are a few places where you can learn it rather openly,
such as Juko Kai schools, and also Wing Lams
Hung Gar schools.

to try and attempt self study will only invite serious long term injury or death.

rm




I would say as to the sets I have collected and researched and seen demonstrated they are mostly harmless. What is harmful is the ideas. A guy hits himself with an object and some fool says "he's hardnening his body for blows". But where is he hitting and why? Its disturbing to see people look and see only what they can comprehend. Hitting isnt nessessarily conditioning but taponment or palpation.

The dangerous techniques involve the eyes and striking and chopping the sides of the neck. The testicles, striking over the kidneys, and also the head. The cranial sutures never fully seal over. They are supposed to move and vibrate. Applying pressure to the skull and hitting it causes calcium deposits to build up in the sutures forcing them into a static condition.

Then you have dynamic tension which I feel has nothing to do at all with the results. Some have claimed that people performing the stone warrior without full tension have not produced results while others have. This does not prove or validate anything.

Adding tension to a qi emission skill set does not equal iron body or iron vest in my book. In fact the tension was added by a master perhaps to prevent rough and tumble types from discovering the qi flow. And instead the flow is restrained and stagnated into muscular armoring.

Which is another issue altogether. Modifyed health forms often become, magically, martial arts qigong methods. Interesting how that works.
Posted by: Tengri

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/02/07 01:08 AM

Quote:

Iron shirt/vest/Golden Bell is a very dangerous qigong and should not be trained without supervision.




Teaching health, dance, yoga and religous movements as killing arts to impressionable minds, with weapons and mish mash of mumbo jumbo thrown in with questionable historys, legends and teaching of modifyed techniques as blocks, punches and kicks is where the real danger is. A clenched fist, sure what else would that be. A leg kicked out, sure what else would that be but a kick right? Sure, if thats where your mind is at. That does not mean thats the only way or the way.
Posted by: Tengri

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/02/07 01:13 AM

Quote:

I have read the book. The danger I believe is due to the Golden Buffalo, Golden Turtle positions, where extended forward bend over of torso affects veinous circultion. There is very good parts in there about standing posture and the sacral and cranial pumps.




I know people that co-wrote or knew the editor. What wasnt left out of the book, the original copy was modifyed. And it was intended to supplement the seminars. Blah, blah same old story right?

The older forms of "qigong" were meaned to effect venous circulation or the flow of CS fluid. Which required extreme angles and use of gravity and pressue. This is just an example of that idea. When you start changing something to be safer, you often also throw the baby away and keep the bathwater.
Posted by: Tengri

Re: Iron Shirt - 04/02/07 01:22 AM

Quote:

Iron shirt or robe technique will not make you impervious to injury. What it will do is to help you to take or absorb the hit better with minimal damage. I have learned some Iron robe technique with my Sifu and I can now take a hit from a wooden baseball bat with minimal damage. But no way can I not get seriously hurt by any sharp objects not even my sifu can do that. Oh and by the way I heard some stories from some poeple where they said there master could take a bullet with out getting hurt to me thats Bull sh!@#. The only person who can take a bullet and not get hurt is Superman lol.




The bullets were old style musket balls. Also, resistant to cuts is a different form (diamond body or spirit armor). Its actually quite easy in theory. Its based on energy, color and visualization. Underneath the skin energy flows and comes out of the pores. A certain type of energy can make the skin resist cut of a metallic object. But this is not real kung fu. Its religon or kooky magic. People that imply that universal qi and breathing and hardnening makes them resist cuts, and blows and all this are simply mixing metafors. They dont really understand what they are saying. In the old days people would mix 5-6 different methods. Prayer, incense, writing symbols on your body, eating odd things, rolling in sand, meditation, tension, ect. Sun da is an example. There are remnants even today. Altars and magic potions. Magic hand signals, secret handshakes. Bowing to a dead master. Calling for the monkey king, drinking from a goblet, it goes on and on. This is where you get into dangerous and delusional territory. Why wouldnt a teacher feed of some of it? It serves his interests to have his picture on the wall next to buddha and to get red money packets. And have people pretend to be dedicated and huble so he might one day teach a secret of adjusting your pain threshold.
Posted by: Shae

Re: Iron Shirt - 07/04/07 11:16 AM

I've done Q'i gong research for ten years now and Serious practice for 3 the Iron shirt/body is part myth part fact the bullet thing was a scam used to make fearless soldiers durring the Golden Fist Rebelion so groups of men with "magic vests" could attack British Riflemen. Liang's and Wen's book Q'i Gong Empowerment has a meathod of training in the Iron Shirt and I've practiced the NeiKung and have side effect from the training so approach at your own risk
Posted by: VietPanda

Re: Iron Shirt - 07/05/07 08:50 PM

I reckon learning for words alone should only be for finding out the theory, and if your interested, later go and learn from a teacher

Besides, learning about MA is quite fun!