"KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study

Posted by: pathfinder7195

"KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/29/08 05:35 PM

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1193556

Studies have been on going the last 20 years for the search of "chi" "ki". Science is studying "chi" at several major colleges. This article is from Oxford University. Perhaps a few people on here could save these colleges bundles of $$$$$ by explaining to these scientists that they are wasting their time since they seem to know so much about this subject.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/29/08 06:16 PM

trial and error is the way we learn. Without proper study we can only speculate.
However goji(sp?) juice supposedly has the same effect on cancer cells in a petri dish
(The guy who did the study pointed out that the petri dish results probably wouldn't affect a full human)
Posted by: MattJ

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/29/08 07:13 PM

Interesting, but the very small test pool does not make this conclusive, IMHO. I would like to see more of the same test, or more people in test/control positions.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/29/08 07:37 PM

My sister gave me all sorts of remedies when I had testicular cancer. One word...placebo.

The chemotherapy worked( Cisplatin and Bp16) Damn near killed me,but it worked.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/29/08 11:40 PM

Brian,
after what my wife went through with chemotherapy, I offer my sincere sympathies.

Apparently, there are some studies being done re: Ki and cancer, and some other studies on the meridian systems that I found interesting. I've had some interesting "discussions" with some of the skeptics on the boards about meridian theory and ki, and their mantra is always "scientific study"...

The first is an abstract on the electrical properties of ki, and the link is to a study about the electrical properties of cancer cells. There was another one, but I lost the link, which researched ki applications at retarding tumor growth, and apparently it worked clinically in the lab, but only in a limited framework. I know better than to offer an opinion on the material, but I'll put it here for you to read...

Electrical properties of meridians
Kuo-Gen Chen
Dept. of Phys., Soochow Univ., Taipei;
An overview of the electrodermal screening test is given. An existing model of the electrical properties of the skin has been the accepted scientific standard for decades. But this model is based entirely on mechanistic principles and it fails to explain many biological phenomena, particularly those relating to acupuncture points and meridians. The author has developed a new model which, unlike the standard model, includes an active biological response and the fact that the electricity passes though different types of tissue, not just skin. This model not only explains much of acupuncture phenomena, in general, but can also be used to explain all possible EDST readings. The author has reviewed studies of electrodermal properties with studies of qualities specific to meridians. The author discovered that meridians have higher conductance, faster electromagnetic wave propagation, and patterns of preferential direction. Because of these factors, the meridian system acts as a particularly good network for the communication of bioinformation and thus plays an essential role in biological function. It is very interesting that much of what has been learned through studies using the most modern equipment and methodologies is in agreement with meridian theory dating from 100 B.C.E. and earlier

http://www.sanum-per-aquam.de/pdfs/spa-study-alkaline-14.pdf


Enjoy...

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 08:24 AM

These are just baby steps and early days yet. Give the scientists more time.

The study posted by Pathfinder says it might be infrared radiation and therefore has electromagnetic properties, which might explain why I have problems when I wear rubber sole shoes.

This is just what I have been looking for and gives me some helpful ideas to work on as recently I've been directing my chi to my eyes and if its really infrared radiation then......
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 07:22 PM

BP, you are right on. These studies are the foundation being built for science to better explain chi/ki. The big leap for the scientists is the advantage of now having major universities putting their name, time and money into these studies. Institutions such as Harvard and Oxford lead to higher degree of credibility for these kind of studies.

Wristtwister thanks for the link.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 08:07 PM

If this does turn out to be sucsessful, we will have discovered something that we've been trying to figure out for years, and I can only think of one scentence that really fits that situation.
"it was a tricky little [censored], but we got it"
Posted by: BrianS

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 08:09 PM

Quote:

BP, you are right on. These studies are the foundation being built for science to better explain chi/ki. The big leap for the scientists is the advantage of now having major universities putting their name, time and money into these studies. Institutions such as Harvard and Oxford lead to higher degree of credibility for these kind of studies.

Wristtwister thanks for the link.




Do you know how p1ssed off I'm going to be if I went through all of that and didn't have too!!
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 08:12 PM

pretty [censored] I'd imagine, almost lost your gonads when you could've just thought them back to health
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 09:43 PM

the promise of cancer research lies in genetics.

Homepathic treatments are for comforting the patient, not treating the cause. We don't see comforting treatments anymore for Smallpox...why? it's been irradicated. We are on the verge of genetic cure breakthough - when that happens, suddenly alternative treatments will have to find other reasons to get paid to make people feel better - and no doubt they will focus on the short-term pshychological cure for short-term afflictions like stress, mild depression, bereavement, etc.

I wouldn't plan on ancient belief systems to irradicate cancer...my money is on the future of genetic cures and/or perhaps even widepread use of nano-technology in our lifetime.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 11:13 PM

Quote:

pretty [censored] I'd imagine, almost lost your gonads when you could've just thought them back to health




It's of course not as simple as that.

It's one thing to have someone directing his chi to blast your cancer cells and another for you doing it yourself.

I went through chemotherapy, radiation treatment and surgery myself for my cancer which my doctors told me would have sent me off in 6 months. Well, being told that you have only 6 months to live does make you pay attention. It's been 11 years now.

Though I could circulate my chi since the early 70s when I started my IMA training, I neglected to continue training consistently because of work commitments and when the cancer struck, besides the conventional medical treatment (which has to be done because the malignant cells are so aggressive when full blown that I doubt a low level ability at chi generation would have been any match) I went all out to re-visit my chi training. Whether the training helps or not, there is no way I can say, more likely a combination of both; the conventional medical treatment knocked them off quickly and the chi training stops them from coming back as I believe the training builds up my immune system which is really the frontline defence system of the body. According to the doctors, you are pretty sure they would come back only if there is no relapse for the 3-5 years benchmark.

If a person has no prior training in chi generation to a certain level, learning to do it when the illness strikes is way too late. And getting a chi-master to blast them for you is, in my own present state of knowledge and training, not a viable option as the nature of cancer is that the ba$tard travels all over the body and gets into every nook and corner. No way a chi-master can sought them all out and even if you can kill 99.99% of them, all you need is just ONE cell to escape the massacre to start the war again.

The nature of chi-generation at a certain level of competence is that you can consciously and at will direct it to all parts of the body selectively in turn or just project it generally to the whole body as a whole, whether in the form of a overall wave-like motion or make it into a specific point projection. (What Nishima did in that cell-culture experiment was a specific point projection)

What exactly happens technically in terms of a physiological response when you generate chi in your own body that will be of any health benefits, I obviously cannot now say. What I can say at this moment is that any concentration of chi in any part of the body also brings with it a concentration of blood flow to that part of the body and therefore oxygen and nutrients to the cells (which is why old people find chi practice helps with aging problems) I've always used penile erection (which is basically due to a sudden surge of blood to the area during sexual arousal) as an illustration. The same thing happens to all parts of the body when you do general chi circulation. Try this. Pull your lower eye lid down (like when a doctor wants to see if you are anaemic) to expose the area below your eye-ball. As you breathe out imagine sending blood to that area. You will notice a sudden and noticeable reddening.

Chi projection for IMA training is another matter and definitely a more involved system of study and self-research because when you have reach a certain level, no one can help you and you have to chart a course for yourself, which is why you find that different high level masters are good at certain things and show peculiar abilities; and there seems to be no consistency of methodology and peer concensus; it has to be when most people you meet seems to know less than you and high level masters are few and far between and when they do meet, the tendency is to protect one's own knowledge gained over decades of hard work. I would not have taken my chi training seriously for the past 11 years if not for the cancer. Fate? Maybe, as Shakespeare said, 'there is a tide in the affairs of men.....'
Posted by: BrianS

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 11:26 PM

Quote:

pretty [censored] I'd imagine, almost lost your gonads when you could've just thought them back to health




Lost one, there was no saving it.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 11:27 PM

Quote:

the promise of cancer research lies in genetics.




Yes.

I do agree that for the general population, chi training is way too involved and time-consuming to undertake as a general form of desease cure. It lies more in the preventive areas of general health care, especially in the elderly owing to the many negative side effects of medication.

I do not agree that the 'feel good' factor is the only factor involved here.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/30/08 11:48 PM

what data do you base that on? do advanced IMAists live longer? do master Aikidoka not go to hospitals for treatment? do Zendo-ists not have health insurance?

or were you just lighting-up the thread?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 01:12 AM

I have never in any way discounted the efficacy of conventional medical treatment and advocated chi training as a panacea which I believe even conventional medicine dare not claim. I thought my previous post made that clear.

And as for "advanced IMAists & master Aikidoka" which numbers in the 1000s all over the world and whether they all have chi-training or not is another question, and even if they do, have I any where said that all people who study these arts have extra long lives, and that their training can cure all manner of illnesses and while that is certainly not the case, can conventional medicine claim otherwise?

I do not see this as a battle for medical supremacy in staking claims over curing human medical affictions which are just too complex and diverse for broad brush stroke statements which medical doctors and researchers themselves are loath to make, let alone us on a MA Forum. Whatever we say will be seen in this light by readers of this Forum as none of us are involved in any cutting-edge medical research. Do any of us really understand fully all those technical methodology and resultant data from the 'cancer cell-culture' experiment?

That experiment is of interest to us only because it points to the POSSIBILITY that "chi" maybe a minute form of bio-electromagnetic radiation towards the infrared spectrum. And that it APPEARS to have a discernable effect on human malignant cells is only a selected experimental methodology and no one is suggesting that a cure for cancer is found. But it is suggesting however that there seems to exist some form of controlled emission of radiation by a trained individual and that it appears not to penetrate aluminium suggests that it has electromagnetic properties. If any of us wants to dispute that can write in to the scientists involved. I see it as only a very small step towards a better understanding of what I am doing, and with that better understanding I can further chart my own course of training.

I am alive to-day due to conventional medical treatment and I am healthy now may or may not be due to my consistent chi training and I have also no stake in the commercial dissemination of any form of chi training.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 02:10 AM

wow..that almost read like a disclaimer. I was just wondering what you based your earlier comment on.

because this:
Quote:

I do agree that for the general population, chi training is way too involved and time-consuming to undertake as a general form of desease cure.




based on your word choice, makes it sound like you are saying there are a small percent of the population which have the secret and hard-fought knowledge and have developed the power of chi to the point of being able to heal their own disease.


that is what you meant, right? if so, how many do you know of that select few that have shown to do this?

did the subjects they use for the mentioned study only include those with high level chi-based training, no training, or some training?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 02:17 AM

in this 'study', the same author proports no-touch ki:
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nel004v1
Quote:


Another interesting observation at his school is the Taiki-practice (paired Ki-practice). During this practice, Nishino can ‘move’ his students without any physical contact. Many of them run, jump or roll on the floor when they receive his Ki-energy. We studied this and propose that ‘information’ is conveyed through the air between two individuals by Ki-energy. This may be called a five sense-independent, life-to-life communication by Ki. All of our results suggest that we should re-evaluate the Cartesian dualism (separation of mind and body) which has been a fundamental principle of modern science for the past three centuries





Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 02:36 AM

Kozo Nishino
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/4770020228/jsutherlasobj/103-1427892-1256602

http://www.nishinojuku.com/english/e_profile/e_pro_top.html

http://www.nishinojuku.com/english/e_keyword/pop_taiki/e_key_taiki_txt.html


uh-huh. yep, the studies are very scientific and have no affiliation to alternative medicine companies. of course, the stub studies are harmless since they don't mention OTHER things that affect cancer cells which have greater effect. I'm sure rubbing your feet on a carpet and discharging static also affects cancer cells - I'd like to compare that study with this one.

ok. ok. nevermind. I got it out of my system. have a happy thread. think happy thoughts...

Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 05:58 AM

I've enjoyed this thread guys....has made me giggle!
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 06:45 AM

Quote:

ok. ok. nevermind. I got it out of my system. have a happy thread. think happy thoughts...




Believe it or not, I am happy for you.


Gavin,

Yea, a giggle now and then is said to be good for health....ooopppsss....sorry, I've no scientific data whatsoever to back up that assertion.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 07:06 AM



http://www.holisticonline.com/Humor_Therapy/humor_therapy_benefits.htm
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 07:38 AM

Humor is bad for Tumor?

Nah... how can that be. So people who laugh a lot live longer (and desease-free) than people who don't or laugh less? Where is the population study data for that?

Sorry Ed, I know this is your role, but I just have nothing better to do.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 07:42 AM

...ther irony being that they list many more actual benefits from laughing than with many other forms of holistics - so there is the secret to alternative medicine: tell jokes while you are treating the customer.

brilliant.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 07:52 AM

FFS you people say you want science....now you say that science hasn't got all the answers and you want MORE science???? When the hell are we supposed to enjoy these insights into our great universe?

Bossman says, "I'm going to do what I do and wait for science to catch up!" and I like that attitude. If I were to wait for science to explain every detail of why my Shiatsu works the way it does I'll be dead. I'm quite happy to live my life and validate the things that happen to me through direct experience. I love to learn the mechanics behind things, but I'm not obsessed by them and I sure as hell ain't going to wait for a guy in a white coat to tell me what is possible, especially when I can conduct experiments within my own reality every nanosecond of my life....after all isn't that what we all do any hows? Some people just have better toys for measuring and recording their experiences.....

AND can we have the old ButterflyPalm back...I don't like this new one!
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 07:57 AM

I believe the most effective form of laughter is that which we direct at ourselves....has a wonderful way of separating the important stuff that really matters from the nonsensical crap that bums us out. It's the potential that humanity has to laugh at itself that endangers my living as a Shiatsu practitioner...genetics doesn't worry me at all! Once people stop taking themselves so seriously I'm going to be out of a job! Then again, I'll be too busy laughing to care!
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 08:05 AM

Quote:

AND can we have the old ButterflyPalm back...I don't like this new one!




Eh? that wasn't me. It must have been my parallel universe twin. A space-time continuum warp must have occurred in Cyberspace while I was in the toilet.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 08:11 AM

Fecking superposition theory hey????
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 08:27 AM

Yea, "he" even calls himself 'ButterflyPalmHeel', but I just call him the "Heel"
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 10:01 AM

I always knew evil was a foot
Posted by: Bossman

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 10:07 AM

Quote:

I always knew evil was a foot




What - a full 12 inches?
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 11:31 AM

When it comes to claims about chi, no one is a bigger skeptic than I am. However, I am all for subjecting chi to controlled, scientific experiments. Will negative findings convince chi-believers to revise their views? Not a chance. People believe in chi for the same reason people believe in angels and UFO abductions; they want to believe the universe is a magical place filled with mysterious events and unseen energies.

I would like to see this study followed up on--I'll bet dollars to donuts that if it is, the "findings" here will turn out to be meaningless.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 03:03 PM

nope a heel
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 08:26 PM

quote] by fileboy
Will negative findings convince chi-believers to revise their views? Not a chance. People believe in chi for the same reason people believe in angels and UFO abductions; they want to believe the universe is a magical place filled with mysterious events and unseen energies.


When there is scientific studies done on chi that show a positive correlation do you revise your view? No. You give a few reasons as to why people believe in chi, but do you have any scientific data to back that up? Again No. I hear you talk all the time about science in your replies but yet you offer more opinion than a chi master at a high priced retreat.

If chi is so easy to disprove why don't you or Ed put up the link, and not from skeptic.com. Neither one of you have offered any evidence from a Major college to disprove chi.

Also fileboy there are more unknown mysteries in our universe than that of which we do know.

Quantum Mechanics is still trying to explain how a atom can be a particle or a wave depending on the time it is measured
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 11:17 PM

I can't disprove UFO abductions either. guess the burden is on the person claiming it.

here are some questions to ask...

1. has anyone opened up a body and discovered meridian pathways? and don't say nerves and blood vessels, because if they were the same, then there would be no reason to distinguish the term 'meridian'.

2. has anyone been able to move things without touching them under test and observable conditions? If someone could do it, they have not stepped forward to collect the Randi prize.

3. Has anyone been able to demonstrate ANYTHING which a non-chi believer can't do? How many olympic athletes attribute their superior performance to chi-based training? If Chi can improve physical performance, then why don't we hear it being attributed to in all professional athletes? These guys are getting paid millions to be the best - they are constantly looking for anything to give edge...yet chi-based notions have never made it to center stage as something worthwhile to harness and incorporate in regular training? and if you can name a few athletes into CMA or TCM, then is their performance superior? if not, then theres not really anything that can be claimed.

points 1,2 &3 can't be disproven - I'm only saying that they have not be shown as apparent, therefore the most likely is that Chi-based training does not produce superior performance in any way shape or form other than perhaps feeling better about yourself and reaping placebo effect - which anyone else might equally get by praying to their beliefs, or simply believing in themselves.


The best case for Ki/Chi has been on the conceptual construct used as a visualization tool for learning complex body dynamics and optimization. I agree with that view. I can see how thinking in terms of a conceptual 'energy flow' can help deliver the lessons. however, there are other constructs for delivering the same lessons equally as well. it just depends on what best resonates with the particular student. If you don't believe me, look at Aikido schools of thought. There are Aikido groups which do not view ki as a spiritual or physical energy at all. The view it as a conceptual tool only. it's a sortof secular take on Aikido. Do those groups have less skill after the same amount of years than a true believer of supernatural ki based Aikido? I'd say however, that most Aikidoka seem to be somewhere in the middle of those two extreames.


What I discount, is the notion of Ki/Chi being a real physical force able to act and react to the physical world.

a conceptual thought cannot effect cancer cells any more than a wish and a prayer can make things so.

now, there is a acting psychology which produces a varied desired effect, called placebo. I'm not dicounting the benefits of placebo, nor do I know exactly the mechanisms that a person produces in order to achive those gains. Just because I can't explain it, doesn't mean I can jump to a conclusion that since it's unknown, it must be Chi flow. Why jump to that conclusion? maybe it's prayer that should be credited...maybe it's a chemical yet unknown that the body produces when the mind truely believes. who knows. How can it be evidence specifically accredited to Chi energy?

If this threads study was not slanted towards an outcome, then the study would include results of other belief systems side-by-side with ki. for instance does prayer affect cancer cells better or worse than ki? does Indian meditation? do people who are able to 'lay-on hands' in churches have results of affecting cancer cells? how do athletes fair? etc...


most studies that support TCM, seem to have some things in common:
- The funding and/or researcher have apparent agenda of supporting the case they seek to show.

- The study is done with an insufficient test base or non-blind tests.

- The affects shown as a benefit, do not take other factors into account. for instance, a study could easily show all sorts of health benefits in elders engaging in regular slow-moving tai-chi classes. people would say 'wow, there really is something to those CMA styles'. but then you compare the those benefits with another separate test elderly group engaging in very low impact square dancing...and it shows very similar health benefit results! duh, it's EXERCISE, ACTIVITY, SOCIAL MINGLING, etc which should be attributed...not the mysterious ancient chi healing force that companies paying for the slanted study want you to buy in to.

but you have to keep an open mind to see this. if you are already invested in a certain way of thinking, then I don't expect the giant leap it would take to view things in a larger scope.

plain and simple, in the larger picture, TCM is an industry. an industry survives with profits. profits are made with customers, customers are made by making them believers...and to make them returning customers, you need to get them addicted to pursuing the promises - which will deliver, but never above the level of placebo.

on the human side of it, before I'm accused of being mean. If people in the end feel better or learn how to believe in themselves thru empowerment, real or imaginined, then it was treatment well spent.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 01/31/08 11:42 PM

Ed, your passion for this mental masturbation on chi is quite amazing. Again you offer no science just Ed's opinion. You sound like a broken record on this. Ed, you are like the preacher who hates pornography but knows exactly where to find it. For something somebody does not believe in you sure like to argue about it.

There is some good analysis but it is all your opinion. Nothing other than your belief that the study is flawed. With a study that easy to find it should have been dis proven long ago.

[quote Ed morris] but you have to keep an open mind to see this. if you are already invested in a certain way of thinking, then I don't expect the giant leap it would take to view things in a larger scope

I'm glad we feel the same way.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 12:56 AM

The reason I doubt the validity of this study is because numerous other studies to validate chi have either failed outright or been found to have serious methodological flaws. Some are described in Skeptical Inquirer magazine, but I doubt you would accept that as a source. Google "chi," "ki," or "vitalism" if you are really interested.

And NOTHING can be scientifically disproven. Consider the famous example of the "Celestial Teapot." Science cannot disprove that, right now, a teapot is not in orbit around Mars. But does that mean we should assume there is?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 01:05 AM

well Kevin, common sense doesn't have a formula, thats why it's a 'sense'...so yes, it's my opinion just the same as it's anyones opinion who posts on a forum - tell you what, feel free not to accept my opinion and I'll feel free to ignore your insults that serve as your argument base.

my motivation, if you really must know people's psyche in place of making logical argument, is simply to help people think logically before putting their hand in boiling water. can't save the world though can we, Kev?


whats your motivation for insulting rather than making counter-argument? anyone can insult people....and you didn't even make it with humor. if you are going to insult, at the very least show some immagination and make people laugh for cripes sake.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 01:16 AM

Pathfinder,

This thread started from that experiment and if anyone considered that that experiment is not scientific enough for them or that there is some methodological flaw in it, perhaps they can tell us in what way it is so and if we on this Forum cannot answer them, then of course the next best thing is for them to ask those scientists for a full scientific explanation.

I understand that many among us have had some measure of scientific education and training and I therefore feel quite sure that they and the scientists will have lots to talk about.

BTW, I use the word 'scientists' to refer to those people involved in the experiment in a very loose general sense as I myself have no evidence to show whether they are real scientists or not.

BTW, just as there are McDojos, there are also Internal McMasters.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 01:32 AM

Quote:

well Kevin, common sense doesn't have a formula, thats why it's a 'sense'...


and "common" sense ain't that common either... If people mostly responded in a logical fashion, marketing would be a dead or dying art.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 01:33 AM

I gave my question:

Quote:

If this threads study was not slanted towards an outcome, then the study would include results of other belief systems side-by-side with ki. for instance does prayer affect cancer cells better or worse than ki? does Indian meditation? do people who are able to 'lay-on hands' in churches have results of affecting cancer cells? how do athletes fair? etc...




for example, take the whole study and do a search and replace on the word "Ki". replace it with the word "Prayer". will the findings be similar? would anyone be able to disprove it? does just general exercise produce similar results? I don't know. thats why I ask.


I ask those sort of questions first. I'm goofy like that.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 01:34 AM

Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 03:05 AM

Quote:

I gave my question:

Quote:

If this threads study was not slanted towards an outcome, then the study would include results of other belief systems side-by-side with ki. for instance does prayer affect cancer cells better or worse than ki? does Indian meditation? do people who are able to 'lay-on hands' in churches have results of affecting cancer cells? how do athletes fair? etc...




for example, take the whole study and do a search and replace on the word "Ki". replace it with the word "Prayer". will the findings be similar? would anyone be able to disprove it? does just general exercise produce similar results? I don't know. thats why I ask.


I ask those sort of questions first. I'm goofy like that.




How comes when you post your numerous links to scientific studies you don't require the same criteria to be met? By this reasoning all scientific experiments should have control groups representing every possible affected party. At least now I have a counter argument against the scientific studies that come out on the side of "science"...well you only tested science and chi. How's about prana, wicca, Jesus, Buddha and the teapot round Mars.

Funny t'aint it. You all assume all science has an ego investment in its studies, when all good science is just about learning the outcome and answering the question as to why. Funny how it's "Groupies" soon apply their same pessimistic wrath against scientific process when it don't go their way.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 05:11 AM

Quote:

I would like to see this study followed up on--I'll bet dollars to donuts that if it is, the "findings" here will turn out to be meaningless.




Below is some "findings" from the experiment:-

Quote:

S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi,1* Tomoko Ohnishi,2 Kozo Nishino,3 Yoshinori Tsurusaki,4 and Masayoshi Yamaguchi4

1Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute, Radnor, PA 19087, USA

2Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Phila, PA 19104, USA

3School of Nishino Breathing Method, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 150-0002

4Graduate School of Nutritional Sciences, University of Shizuoka, Yada, Shizuoka 422-8526, Japan

*For reprints and all correspondence: S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi, PhD, Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute, 502 King of Prussia Road, Radnor, PA 19087, USA. Tel: +1-610-688-6276; Fax: +1-610-254-9332; E-mail: stohnishi@aol.com

Abstract:-

‘Ki-energy’ (life-energy) is believed to increase the immune activity of its practitioners. It has also been shown to cause neuropsychological effects. We undertook this study to obtain objective and scientific evidence as to whether or not a ‘Ki-effect’ could inhibit the growth of cultured cancer cells. Cultured human liver carcinoma cells, HepG2, were used. A Japanese Ki-expert held his fingers toward the cells in culture dishes for 5 or 10 min. After culturing for 24 h, we measured cell numbers, protein concentration per cell, certain mRNA expressions and the synthesis of regucalcin. The results were compared with those for control cells (non-treated cells). We found that the number of cells in the Ki-exposed groups were less than those in the controls by 30.3 and 40.6% with 5 and 10 min Ki-exposure, respectively. The protein content per cell in the Ki-exposed groups (5 and 10 min) was higher than that in the control groups by 38.8 and 62.9%, respectively. These results were statistically significant. Using RT–PCR, we found that the mRNA expression for c-myc, a tumor stimulator gene, was decreased, while that for regucalcin, which suppresses DNA synthesis, was increased. Our molecular biological studies and mathematical model analysis demonstrated that Ki-energy inhibited cancer cell division. The data also indicate that the Ki-effects involve some form of infrared radiation from the human body. This study suggests the possibility that Ki-energy may be beneficial for cancer patients because it suppresses cancer cell growth, and at the same time, it stimulates immune functions of the patients.

Using human liver carcinoma cells, HepG2, we performed a series of simple, straightforward experiments to test whether the Ki-effect could be studied scientifically. Namely, cells in culture dishes were exposed to 5 or 10 min of Ki-emission from Nishino's fingers. They were subsequently incubated for 24 h to examine whether cell growth was reduced as compared to those in the control dishes to which no Ki was applied.

We searched to see if a specific protein was expressed in Ki-exposed cells, since that might relate to a mechanism of the Ki-effect. We also tested the possibility of whether or not Nishino's Ki-energy might penetrate skin and muscle to reach cancer-afflicted organs and attack cancer cells. From the study of the materials that pass or block the Ki-effect, we also tried to search for the nature of the Ki-energy.





Perhaps S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi, PhD, of the Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute, 502 King of Prussia Road, Radnor, PA 19087, USA. would like to hear from you how "meaningless" his experiment might turn out to be if followed up on.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 07:43 AM

Quote:

How comes when you post your numerous links to scientific studies you don't require the same criteria to be met?



numerous links? The very few that I have pointed to in 3 years are up for equal debate, always. A study without baseline (in this case they use 1 school where they already determined 'ki' to be cultivated), is suspect.
I'm not sure where you get this 'groupie' idea, never thought of the attempt of critical thinking as just some closed seminar of people within an affiliation.

want to apply the groupie term to something, apply it to the chi-believers (the ones believing chi is a physical energy force). They stay in closed circles and never come out. Ever see a chi-based believer win any physicaly competitive event? How about a 'ki-master' that is able to do incredable things in closed seminars, but then always sems to lose their power when put to a real test?

no, the only thing we see them excel at is attracting wishers to high-priced seminars and buying DVD's.

chi/ki is just a conceptual training tool but it's been hyped and sold as something else for so long that people (perpetuated by chi groupies) buy into it's mystique and are willing to automatically attribute any unknown or little-understood phenomenon as proof of it's 'energy'. Well, funny thing because if you go to another groupie group, they attribute the same phenomenon to THEIR pet 'energy' that they worship. Go to a trekkie convention and they would attribute this study to a Vulcan 'mind melding' or something. and you know something, you or I cannot prove them wrong either.

it's a load of BS. I base that on common sense. not studies. The reason why it's so difficult to even find ki/chi studies is that, until someone can demonstrate powers which others cannot do, then there is no real mystery to be studied.

all these ki power claims, yet no one can move a pencil on a desk without resorting to tricks? is that something worthy of further study and $$$ grants? lol

last time I checked, studies can only really be based on the observable and repeatable. if they aren't observable and repeatable, then there is nothing to study.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 07:44 AM

BP, you should know me better than that. I've already e-mailed him.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 09:47 AM

Any chance of us seeing what your E-mail says? so that we can have some co-relation to the answers.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 09:51 AM

It makes you question
Is that q-ray really a placebo?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 10:03 AM

Quote:

It makes you question
Is that q-ray really a placebo?




You mean whether a placebo effect can affect a human cancer cell in a petri dish?

We must see that experiment in the proper perspective.

It was not an experiment to:-

1. see whether chi/ki can have non-contact movements of physical objects;

2. see whether it can give superhuman strength to it's practitioners;

3. see whether it can actually cure someone of cancer;

4. see whether a death ray will issue out from a practitioner's fingers;

5. etc, etc, etc.

It was done on the narrow premise of whether, if any, a practitioner's claim of issuing chi/ki beyond his own body can have any effect on human cancer cells under laboratory conditions. To see anything more into it would be unfair to the scientists involved.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 10:28 AM

It does make you wonder though. If there is a noticeable effect, could there be other effects as well. The Q-ray is a bracelet which supposedly balances chi in your body. With experiments like these suggesting the existence of such a force, It is entirely likely that a person will think about other claims. The q-ray bracelet is unrelated to this study entirely, with the exception of Ki or Chi.

Most people claim Q-ray works. Others beleive it's a placebo because they don't beleive in chi. What I was saying was, With things like this popping up, It makes you wonder if other claims like the Q-ray are actually true or not.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 10:42 AM

and the baseline of the study is in question.

Quote:


Ohnishi Sensei,

I was interested in your article/study from 2005:

Growth Inhibition of Cultured Human Liver Carcinoma
Cells by Ki-energy (Life-energy): Scientific Evidence
for Ki-effects on Cancer Cells

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1193556


My question is if there were baseline data taken with
someone as a test subject who did not have ki
training, would the difference be as significant?
As I understand the wording in the study, it seems
your baseline is the cells standing alone in open air
with no human finger proximity.

I'm wondering if a better baseline would be a non-Ki
practitioner interacts with the cells the same way and
for the same amount of time as the Ki-affected
subject.

my question only serves my own curiosity.
Thank you in advance for your honest reply,

-Edward Morris





we'll see if there is a reply...maybe, maybe not. the study is 3 years old so who knows if he even has the same e-mail address.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 11:51 AM

Ed, I think this has been the greatest penalty to these types of tests. Not that the tests are marred by the way the data has been taken, but that these tests only format empircical evidence. There is no double blind testing involved and it would be hard to replicate since just a definition of "ki," let alone it's measurement, could be obtained to place in an experiment using a double blind format and then replicating it to see the results time and again....and then measuring whither the wind blows.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 12:33 PM

Quote:

Most people claim Q-ray works. Others beleive it's a placebo because they don't beleive in chi. What I was saying was, With things like this popping up, It makes you wonder if other claims like the Q-ray are actually true or not.




The general veracity of the placebo effect is not in dispute, and entrepreneurs being what they are will exploit this for commercial gains in all periods of human history. Scientists are now even questioning whether vitamin pills are as effective as the companies producing them claim. I read this sometime ago and cannot remember where, but it stuck in my mind.

All things must be seen in their proper context. To lump all and sundry and attribute it to chi/ki as a marketing tool whether by snake oil sellers or Internal Qi-Kung McMasters can only give fuel to critiques, and deservedly so. But who can stop these people, especially if yourself or a loved one is suffering from a terminal illness, and a glossy pamphlet promises hope? I drank juices from 13 kilos of carrots every week when I was undergoing my own cancer treatment. Did it help? how could I tell, but to just dismiss it as mere placebo effect is to over-simplify the issue. Because if there is even a possibility that it might help a loved one when it happens to us, would we just say nahh...it's all placebo?

The problem with chi/ki is that it is not something one can gain control of and manipulate overnight. I already found that out and to say it can all happen after a weekend seminar is as good as saying one can be a good cook by just reading a few cook books and watching some TV kitchen series. But then this is the Internet era, and anything not happening fast is not happening at all. I am only glad I started back in the '70s as hearing things like "...forget it if you do not intend to put in at least ten hard years" was a challenge rather than a put off. Try telling that to some weekend students at a chi-seminar. If it is all so simple, Dr. Yang Jwing Meng wouldn't need to start a retreat to train students who have to commit the next 10-15 years of their lives.

Before I could have such control more than 30 years ago, I too was sceptical and wondered as many people on this Forum wondered what exactly was it, did it even exist at all, how did it feel like when it happened, what did it mean to 'circulate and project' one's chi/ki as those who went before me used to tell me all those decades ago.

I say what I say and can only say them because I am at a certain level of competence. I don't see my level as being very high, but, with modesty, high enough to see where it all can lead to if I continue at the pace I am going now, as only I myself would know because it is my body and I have no problem people telling me it's all a figment of my placeboed imagination because it is not their bodies, and they have no right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my. I've not reached it yet and so telling you will only subject myself to justified ridicule. I will show it if and when I do achieve what I set out to achieve, not for any ego trip or to recruit students, but to show what the human mind and body can achieve with long dedicated training, which is really the key, whether in EMA or IMA, and hopefully to inspire others to reach for something beyond the narrow confines of the four walls of conventional wisdom.

I can of course fail miserably, but that's a chance I take, not blindly though, because I've gone beyond theory and can do what I can do.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 04:33 PM

looks like you are right, Brad.

here's the reply I just got from one of the authors of the study:
Quote:


Dear Dr. Edward Morris:

Thank you very much for your interesting question. When we wrote this paper, we were under the impression that non-practitioner cannot emit Ki. Actually, we have some data to show that this may be the case.

But recently, we have some data to show that even a non-practitioner can emit Ki to a certain degree.

If you could introduce me what part of the world you live in, and what type of work you do, I can tell you more about these recent discoveries. I believe you have some martial arts experience. Don't you?

Tsuyoshi





how did he know I have MA experience?? and why do I have to answer questions to get more info? I feel a kind of profiling going on here like the $20 fotune tellers do during the 'sizing-up' phase of the reading.



by the way, allow me to plug my new self-help book:
"STFU by Dr. Ed"

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 04:36 PM

so I replied back...

Quote:


Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I have a little Martial Arts experience. I live
in the Northeast, US and I'm a Software Engineer.

Do those answers qualify me to know more about the
secret studies?

Do you believe that you could Scientifically prove
that people can be 'no touch knocked out' ? Also, do
you think Chi-balls are real?

Thanks and sorry for so many questions...but there are
just so many mysteries!

-Ed Morris



Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 06:32 PM

I don't believe in no touch knockouts or chi balls. It seems the only people that do are the skeptics and teenagers. Why not ask him if he believes in chi and what it is. But I guess find the two most extreme questions to ask to make it look like a joke.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/01/08 08:31 PM

got a reply back already...

Quote:

Dear Ed:

I will send you this weekend the list of my papers which may answer some of your questions.

I don't know much about Chi-ball, but I met a lady who plays always with her friend with Ki-ball (something like make a Ki-ball, and throw it to her friend, and throw back). Interestingly, she was very sensitive to my Ki.

Could you please tell me what martial arts you practice (or teach) and how long?

Tsuyoshi





it would seem chi-ball tennis is not a joke to him. (sorry, Ki-ball. there is a difference apparently)


remember folks, this is the author of the study this thread is based on:
S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi PhD, Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute

The opening thread mentioned this was an Oxford University study. it is not.

"Published by Oxford University Press."

anyone can publish thru them. here are the guidelines for submission:
http://www.oxfordjournals.org/for_authors/

it doesn't give prices. but you can call to find out.


how 'scientific' was this study again? explain that to me please.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/02/08 12:21 AM

Ed, he is inviting you to play Ki-Ball tennis with him. Why don't you take him up on the offer and satisfy yourself once and for all? This is a golden opportunity, what have you got to lose, but everything to gain? I would if I live in the US. Perhaps some members who live in the Philo area can do it?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/02/08 01:27 AM

again BP, you mock me unjustly and prematurely. I would and will meet with him, if that's what he's offereing.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/02/08 02:52 AM

Quote:

again BP, you mock me unjustly and prematurely. I would and will meet with him, if that's what he's offereing.




"Mock?" again? Perhaps I was being jesty yes, because my mental image of you exchanging ki-balls with him was, well, funny, don't you think?

Actually, I was thinking that perhaps it is more convenient for everyone and certainly of interest to those of us who will not have the opportunity of a face-to-face meeting to invite him to join our discussions here and let him have a proper platform to defend himself and his experiments, rather then talking behind his back? I just feel it has not been fair to him. It appears he also have some interest in MA as well.

His views, good or bad, thrash or gems, will certainly liven up our place here.

What does everyone think? Shall we give the man his say?
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/02/08 10:54 AM

everyone has a right to speak, especially on a public forum, however...curious the topic is.
Warriors and scholars are we all, always looking for ways to either improve ourself, or help others.
I agree, We need something to chat about anyway.
Although as an professionally untrained MAist, My vote might not count.

Invite him, And let us all become that much more enlightened, one way or another.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/02/08 12:58 PM

good idea. ok, I sent him a link to this thread and mentioned others may have questions for him.


also, he has provided this info, for those interested:
Quote:


What is the Nishino Breathing Method?

The Nishino Breathing Method (NBM) was developed by a Japanese Ki-master, Kozo Nishino [see his books in the attached reference list]. He first studied medicine, and then studied ballet choreography at the Metropolitan Opera Ballet School in New York. After many successful years as the director and choreographer of the Nishino Ballet School in Japan, he decided to search for the secret of the Japanese martial art called Aikido at the age of 50. He quickly became a 7th degree black belt. Combining all of his experiences, namely, western medicine, western ballet and Japanese martial arts, he developed NBM and taught it to more than 10,000 students in Japan how to enhance their level of Ki-energy and improve the skill of communication.

Many professionals who learned how to enhance the level of Ki-energy through NBM became successful in their own fields. They are renowned musicians, singers, dancers, actors, athletes, artists, CEOs of many world class companies (Sony, Honda, NEC etc), university professors and hospital doctors. Many of them physically and spiritually maintained the vitality of youth, and are still working as front runners in their respective fields at the ages of 70 or even 80.

The most obvious benefit for the students has been that they all became physically and mentally youthful and healthy. Many Japanese couples experienced that their marriage relationship was much improved through the practice. Although Nishino did not treat patients or offer healing to those who were suffering from illnesses, many of his students have experienced that their physical problems were improved through their practice of NBM.

Books Written by Master Nishino:

Nishino, K: The Breath of Life: Using the Power of Ki for Maximum Vitality. Tokyo, New York, London: Kodansha International; 1997 This book (Price around $23) is out of print, but is available from Amazon.Com when someone wishes to sell; price $70-$150.
Nishino K: Le Souffle de Vie, Utiliser le Pouroir du Ki. Paris: Guy Tredaniel Editeur; 1998.
Nishino K: Il Respiro Della Vita, La massima vitalita dalla forza del Ki, Esercizi di Respirazione facili, effieaci, completamente illustrati. Rome, Italy: Edizioni Mediterranee, Via Flaminia; 1999.
The translation in Turkish will be published soon.
(Information on the School of the Nishino Breathing Method:

http://www.nishinojuku.com )

Scientific Studies on the Nishino Breathing Method.

Both S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi and Tomoko Ohnishi have studied the NBM since 1997.

(A) S.T. Ohnishi helped the publication on “Physiological Study,” which investigated immune activity and stress level of NBM students [ref 1].

(B) Both of them have conducted “Biomedical Studies” on NBM with the collaboration of other Japanese scientists and Master Nishino since 2000. Already 8 scientific papers were published. They demonstrated that the Ki-energy emitted from the finger of Master Nishino could inhibit the growth of cultured human liver cancer cells [ref 2]. The Ki energy could also protect isolated mitochondria from oxidative injury [ref 3]. Ki may be beneficial in preventing osteoporosis [ref 4]

(B) Both of them wanted to study “Physics Aspects” of NMB. However, Master Nishino was not interested in that type of study. Therefore, they pursued this avenue of research by themselves. So far, they published that “Ki-signals” would be composed of both “energy” and “entropy (information)” [ref. 5]; Ki is essentially a “non-linear” phenomenon [ref. 6]; Ki may be a laser-like radiation from fingers [ref. 7]; Philosophical, psychological, physics and practice aspects Ki was discussed [ref. 8].

All papers can be downloaded for free at the addresses shown below.

(A) Physiological Studies:

Beneficial Effects of the Nishino Breathing Method on the
Immune activity and stress level. J. Altern. Comp. Med. 11: 285-291 (2005)

http://members.aol.com/philabiomed/publication/kimura.pdf

(B) Biomedical Research Papers:

(2) Growth Inhibition of Cultured Human Liver Carcinoma Cells by

Ki-energy (Life-energy): Scientific Evidence for Ki-Effects on Cancer Cells. A scientific study of Ki-effect on cancer cells, Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine. 2: 378-383 (2005)

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/2/3/387

(3) Ki-energy (Life-energy) Protects Isolated Rat Liver Mitochondria from Oxidative Injury. Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine. 3: 475-482 (2006)

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/3/4/475

(4) Ohnishi ST, Nishino K, Uchiyama K, Ohnishi T, Yamaguchi M: Ki-energy (life-energy) stimulates osteoblastic cells and inhibits the formation of osteoclast-like cells in bone cell culture models. Evid-based Complement Altern Med 4:225-232 (2007)

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/nem037

(C) Physics-Related Studies:

(5) Ohnishi ST and Ohnishi T: Review: The Nishino Breathing Method and Ki-energy (Life-energy):A Challenge to Traditional Scientific Thinking. Evid-based Compl. Altern. Med., 3:191-200 (2006)

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/3/2/191

(6) Ohnishi ST: Ki: A key to transform the century of death to the century of life. Evid-based Complement Altern Med (2007)

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/nem021v1

(7) Ohnishi ST and Ohnishi T: How Far Can Ki-energy Reach? - A Hypothetical Mechanism for the Generation and Transmission of Ki-energy. Evid-based Complement Altern Med (2007)

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem102v1

(8) Ohnishi ST and Ohnishi T:

(Commentary) Philosophy, psychology, physics and practice of Ki

Evid-based Complement Altern Med (2008)

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/ nen005v1

These publications can be found either in “PubMed”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

or “Google Seach” http://www.google.com/search?q=%s

(Please type in “ohnishi s t” )




Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 06:02 PM

Going back to an earlier statement you made, Ed...
Quote:

the promise of cancer research lies in genetics.





During the three years of my wife's cancer treatment, there was not one mention made of this "fact". While it's well known that there is a genetic proclivity toward having cancer, I would be interested to know what your information on the "genetic cures" is.

Our local hospital has developed a vaccine for a particular type of uterine cancer, but it's a vaccine... not a genetic "cure", so I'm interested to know why you have the idea that "genetics" is going to be the path to curing cancer. Most diseases are cured by medicines, treatments, or vaccines, and it makes me wonder how a "genetic cure" would be applied... "restructured dna" shots to pregnant women?

Just curious...

Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 07:42 PM

from what I can gather with cancer, It's not a plague, it's a problem. sections of our genetic code break down but continue to replicate.
wether half of one molecule (held together by 'hydrogen bonding' I might add) is replaced by a benzene ring or the cell evolves to ward off harmful substances like tar or singlight. Our body rejects it and sends more nutrients to the surrounding area in hopes of killing it, the problem is, these cells get nutrients too, which means they replicate more.
You can't cure cancer, It's not some virus or definite protein code, It's our own bodies breaking down from within.
The only way to get rid of it is to either eliminate all the cells that have mutated or by repairing the cell.

After thought into my own theories, It would make sense that energy that is human in nature would fix that which is relatively human.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 08:20 PM

sunlight not singlight. I already have enough problems with the glare from those pop concerts
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 08:26 PM

Quote:

It's not a plague, it's a problem.




Well, if it's that simple, we should have already solved it... and three years of them treating a very common type of cancer in my wife tells me otherwise. The "vaccine" results of our local hospital also points in another direction from it being just a "problem".

My wife was "over 44" which seems to be a "breakthrough age" for breast cancer treatment... those under 44 have about a 70% cure rate, those over 44 have a much less cure rate and a different treatment regimen. They also have about 15 different ways to treat that one particular cancer, so if I'm guessing correctly, it's the insurance companies that are driving the "research" into cancer treatment... not the medical profession.

My take on the "cancer treatment" was that the doctors would do anything to her that they would get paid for... even up to and suggesting surgeries, etc. that they knew the insurance company would cover. My original question is still out there... where does the idea that genetic research is going to provide a cure for cancer come from?

Cancer can start anywhere in the body, so are we to assume that everybody has a propensity for developing cancer? Particular types of cancer seem to be genetically connected, but families tend to live in the same environments and do the same things, so how much of that is involved?

Ed made the statement that the key to curing cancer lies in genetics, so I just want to know where that comes from...

Posted by: MattJ

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 09:10 PM

Grady -

Very surprised that you haven't heard of gene therapy research for cancer. It has been ongoing for some time now:

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Therapy/gene

Scientific American and Discover magazine have been doing articles as well, for years.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 09:44 PM

where did I write 'fact'?
where did I write 'cure'?

I said the research shows promise TOWARDS the future of understanding how cancer works (and TOWARDS cure). do you think it brings us closer to understanding it thru 'ki' research from flakes pushing their books, products, seminars and wellnesss clinics?

I'm not the only or first one who has thought about the connection of genetics and cancer:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=genetics+future+cure+cancer

it is absolutely beyond me how someone could ignore legitimate genetic research while embracing these fringe studies like the obviously bogus and agenda-based one brought up at the beginning of the thread.


let's say someone gives you 1 billion dollars...but their only stipulation is that you must give it all to 1 particular field of cancer research. The part you have to decide is which particular field gets it.
Would I give it to a ballet instructor who discovered his 'ki' and salesman talent when 50? no. I'd choose to give it to genetic research. why? it's my opinion it's the particular field which shows the most promise.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 09:50 PM

No problem Matt... I just wondered what Ed meant by the answer to curing cancer being in genetic research. I knew that there were treatments being developed using carrier cells, etc. but they are "treatments", not cures.

I know I'm not a microbiologist, but I don't see feeding a virus to cancer as being a cure. In reading the fact sheet you posted, I see that most of the "gene therapy" is immunotherapy using gene structures and manipulations of the immune system to kill the cancer cells... and, again, they are treatments, not cures.

There have been a lot of SWAG's (Scientific Wild-A$$ed Guess) tried on cancer, and a lot of treatments generated, but there is a difference between finding actual cures and simply generating life-extending treatments. Chemotherapy kills some forms and types of cancer, but it isn't reliable as preventing recurrances... and for the half a million dollars that we spent on my wife, we probably earned her six months of life from all she endured... and it was all choreographed by the medical profession, who do whatever they can to the patients that they will get paid for. If we went back through all her records, she was probably given much more radiation than she needed, and lots of tests, etc. that proved absolutely nothing.

Posted by: MattJ

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 10:14 PM

Grady -

Quote:

No problem Matt... I just wondered what Ed meant by the answer to curing cancer being in genetic research. I knew that there were treatments being developed using carrier cells, etc. but they are "treatments", not cures.




Ed didn't say "cure". He said "research". Big difference.

Quote:

I know I'm not a microbiologist, but I don't see feeding a virus to cancer as being a cure.




Check it out some more. Very promising studies using the Herpes(!) virus to attack cancer cells.

Quote:

In reading the fact sheet you posted, I see that most of the "gene therapy" is immunotherapy using gene structures and manipulations of the immune system to kill the cancer cells... and, again, they are treatments, not cures.




Actually, it IS gene therapy using viral vectors. Again, YOU are the one saying "cure". And if the "treatment" does work, what does it matter? You are splitting hairs.

Quote:

There have been a lot of SWAG's (Scientific Wild-A$$ed Guess) tried on cancer, and a lot of treatments generated, but there is a difference between finding actual cures and simply generating life-extending treatments.




Not disagreeing, but I'm sure the patients will be happy either way.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/03/08 11:02 PM

Geez Ed, don't have a cow... my mistake.

Quote:

do you think it brings us closer to understanding it thru 'ki' research from flakes pushing their books, products, seminars and wellnesss clinics?



Where did I say that?

Quote:

it is absolutely beyond me how someone could ignore legitimate genetic research while embracing these fringe studies like the obviously bogus and agenda-based one brought up at the beginning of the thread.





Maybe they've looked beyond the "obvious", which is the good done by genetics research and looked at the other questions that pop up...

From the link Matt provided...

What are some of the social and ethical issues surrounding human gene therapy?
In large measure, the issues are the same as those faced whenever a powerful new technology is developed. Such technologies can accomplish great good, but they can also result in great harm if applied unwisely.
Gene therapy is currently focused on correcting genetic flaws and curing life-threatening disease, and regulations are in place for conducting these types of studies. But in the future, when the techniques of gene therapy have become simpler and more accessible, society will need to deal with more complex questions.
One such question is related to the possibility of genetically altering human eggs or sperm, the reproductive cells that pass genes on to future generations. (Because reproductive cells are also called germ cells, this type of gene therapy is referred to as germ-line therapy.) Another question is related to the potential for enhancing human capabilities—for example, improving memory and intelligence—by genetic intervention. Although both germ-line gene therapy and genetic enhancement have the potential to produce benefits, possible problems with these procedures worry many scientists. Germ-line gene therapy would forever change the genetic makeup of an individual’s descendants. Thus, the human gene pool would be permanently affected. Although these changes would presumably be for the better, an error in technology or judgment could have far-reaching consequences. The NIH does not approve germ-line gene therapy in humans.
In the case of genetic enhancement, there is concern that such manipulation could become a luxury available only to the rich and powerful. Some also fear that widespread use of this technology could lead to new definitions of “normal” that would exclude individuals who are, for example, of merely average intelligence. And, justly or not, some people associate all genetic manipulation with past abuses of the concept of “eugenics,” or the study of methods of improving genetic qualities through selective breeding.
What is being done to address these social and ethical issues?
Scientists working on the Human Genome Project (HGP), which completed mapping and sequencing all of the genes in humans, recognized that the information gained from this work would have profound implications for individuals, families, and society. The Ethical, Legal, and Social Implications (ELSI) Research Program was established in 1990 as part of the HGP to address these issues. The ELSI Research Program fosters basic and applied research on the ethical, legal, and social implications of genetic and genomic research for individuals, families, and communities. The ELSI Research Program sponsors and manages studies and supports workshops, research consortia, and policy conferences on these topics.

I'm sure that "all science is pure" and all "alternatives" are "agenda-driven"... but simply ignoring the bad side of your arguments always leaves the door open for a little deeper look into the actual "help" that science is providing.

If we didn't learn anything else from "Jurassic Park", it was that simply because science "can" do something doesn't mean that it should.(..and yes, I know it was fiction) Those same ethical questions, however, pop up with your simple acceptance of genetic answers to questions that can affect future generations... and not necessarily in a good way.

Matt was surprised that I "hadn't heard of genetic therapy"... simply because it was discussed as "immunotherapy", and since the medical profession didn't have a protocol for my wife, they didn't bother to offer it.

Reading through the link Matt posted caused me to have some serious second thoughts about "gene therapy"... especially when they started the "class warfare" discussion (only the rich will be able to afford it). Like global warming, it's another sales job to pile money on top of money with "the good of man" at it's premise.

Thanks for answering my question... sorry I misinterpreted what you actually said.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 12:06 AM

I guess I'm the type that thinks putting billions into research and understanding is much better towards the "good of man" than what I've seen billions being spent on in recent years.

maybe if more people started becoming more aware of whats fake and whats real, then we will head in the right direction towards solving real problems? just a thought.


btw, what does everyone think of the study that was presented in the opening of the thread?
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 06:26 AM

Quote:

I guess I'm the type that thinks putting billions into research and understanding is much better towards the "good of man" than what I've seen billions being spent on in recent years.




Well, if you're talking "government money" it's been spent on a lot of selfish programs... but don't just blame one person, blame Congress and the Senate.. and 20 million other people that aren't "entitled" to anything. If you're talking "corporate" money, it's been spent trying to turn a profit... and illegally in lots of cases.

If you're talking about "research money", which is usually "government money" it's been spent on whatever agenda the National Science Foundation happens to be funding at the time. Over the years, I've learned to be skeptical when I hear "for the good of man", or "for the children" coming out of the mouths of anybody puporting to "do good" for society. What that usually means, is Socialism... regardless of the issue.

Quote:

maybe if more people started becoming more aware of whats fake and whats real, then we will head in the right direction towards solving real problems? just a thought.





And maybe if they would stop thinking that "their way" is the only way, a lot of the conflict in life would be resolved. When you drop the agendas and simply deal with the facts of anything, it becomes simpler... and being a master crafter of language doesn't make anybody right... even if they can google-fu a million internet references of "like minded" thinkers.

I think we all want a better world... and we all see it differently. Too bad we don't see things only "one way".

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 06:34 AM

That's why it's better to be happy. You can never ever go wrong with happiness.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 08:47 AM

BFP
I'd be happy to prove you wrong, but that would technically BE wrong and thus in and of itslef, right.

others
Ki is free and that's good news to me. No expensive radioactive materials, no having tiny particles of gold injected into your blood to destroy cancer cells (don't ask me how it works, It was in NatGeo).
Nope, just get someone to point their finger at you for a while.

Why are we studying this remote possibility?
a)the concept has been around scince antiquity, It's worth a shot considering it's free.
b)as the ending theme from portal states (have at your science, we do what we must because we can)
c) it's a double edged study, a chance for cancer, a chance for ki
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 09:55 AM

wishing and praying are free too. some cultures used to sacrifice one healthy person to save the many sick in order to fullfill their wishful thinking. hey, you work with what you got. and if wishing is the best you can do, then keep doing whatever makes you feel better.


You can enjoy an immunized life while minimizing the thought process necessary which made that possible; and while you are living out your years beyond 35 on science-based borrowed time, it will afford you the luxury of seeking to drink from the secret ways of the ancient fountain of youth.

everyone needs a hobby.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 02:18 PM

If I were immortal however:
http://hhgproject.org/entries/wowbagger.html

I'd be pretty [censored] after living too long as well
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 04:28 PM

back to the study. so, we found out that the study is based solely on the abilities of this man:

Japanese Ki-master, Kozo Nishino. who developed the Nishino Breathing Method (NBM). http://www.nishinojuku.com/english/e_profile/e_nishi_.html

"born in 1926" so he's about 82.

says he started MA when he was 50. kung fu and aikido.

so that must have been about 1976. less than 9 years later, he obtains Shihan rank in both arts, starts his own school chains and develops his own breathing method.


my question is, are chi/ki powers bestowed upon people or do they have to be learned thru decades of training?
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 06:34 PM

The point of showing the study was not for cancer cures but to show the possibility of "ki". My father died of pancreatic cancer in 2005, lost a 23 yr old brother in-law with two kids to testicular cancer. His mother was a nurse. None of them tried any alternative treatments. My brother in law went to the mayo clinic for his treatment. I've seen the best there is in cancer research from a western point.

In no way would I suggest this "ki" power for treatment. Ed you say all this alternative medicine is for money. Same with western medicine, but worse. Take one pill and then you end up taking three more for the side effects. Stressed don't take care of the stress take a pill.

So Ed, one study you have some issues with because he also sells some books. Nothing wrong with making money. You will go on all day with anyone who will argue with you. I've seen several people on here like bossman, BP, wristtwister, and other's give very well written and detailed replies all in vain. So to just argue over one article seems rather pointless. If this stuff fascinates you so much go prove the Buddhist monks study as a fraud as well. But you found your red meat feast away.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/04/08 07:54 PM

Ed, if I had been a ballet dancer since 1951, and studied 9 years with any kind of martial arts master, I would expect to advance a heck of a lot faster than somebody walking off the street and starting from scratch. I don't think he could have done much better for a teacher than the Doshu, and his Kung Fu master was also well known and respected in Japan... so what's your problem with his gaining Shihan rank? Both arts are all about body mechanics... and I don't know that you have better body mechanics than any ballet dancer I've ever seen.

As for his "breathing method", I suspect that he worked on that all through his ballet training, as well as his martial arts. At 5th Dan in most schools in Japan, a teacher can go out on their own, so your objection of him starting his own chain of schools also puzzles me.

Quote:

my question is, are chi/ki powers bestowed upon people or do they have to be learned thru decades of training?




You're just Pi$$ed that nobody will show you the secret handshake that gives you the ki powers... maybe a visit to Japan to live with the current Doshu, and you might talk somebody into it... but you'd have to drop the "skeptical" attitude...

Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/05/08 02:39 PM

It's too bad, It's an awesome handshake.
By my own theories being able to control chi may be a talent as well as something you learn over years. Wolfgang Amadeus Motzart was practically born writinf music. Others had to develop it over time. It comes naturally to some. Others have a hard time grasping it
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/08/08 04:45 PM

the bottom line question that puts this 'scientific study' in question is the baseline used.

to make it 'more scientific' here are the recommendations:
1. choose a qualified person doing the study as someone not affiliated with the test subject.

2. the baseline was cells in open air vs. cells being affected by someone thought to posess ki energy. this is incomplete. they needed to have someone with no such training as the ki-master also do the same test, then compare that.

3. The pre-assumption that this is ki energy and not thermal energy, brain waves, power of the gods or telekinesis is exclusionary. a real study seeks to eliminate other possibilities. for instance, if a non-ki person did do this test and it was found to have similar results as the ki guy...I'd start going with the thermal interaction of a person's fingers with the cells.
....and cells do change when we introduce an increase of temperature, don't they.


but I'll always get attacked for posing reasonable questions like that. people can't address the questions, so they take it to the direction of trying to discredit the questioner. same ol, same ol.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/08/08 05:43 PM

Ed you'll only get attacked for being narrow minded. You claim to be a critical thinker, which is what I think I'd define as a free thinker. Have you ever done any research into the neurology of a free thinker? Very interesting when you start looking at associative states of thinking. About how true open minded thinkers, which is a term that I prefer over free and critical thinker, can access new neural pathways instead of utilising existing neural pathways and as such responding in a preconditioned manner to new stimulus. It's interesting to see how we can be duped into thinking we are thinking objectively when actually we are accessing the same pre-conditioned neurological patterns that blind faith cult members follow. Its funny that those claiming to be the most objective amongst us are probably, neurologically speaking, more subjective fixed thinkers than the crackpots they target with their so called scepticism.

I know I've mentioned it before, this science groupie thing, but its true. Groupies follow things fanatically and passionately yet usually without understanding. See there is a whole science behind the placebo effect that science is *just* discovering. Non-chi people say that what chi people do is just in their heads. When I hear this argument I tell people to research the statement from the classics that says, "Where the Yi goes the Qi will follow!" in that statement really lies the secret behind oriental medical and martial theory. Really really does.

The mind is a truly wonderful and profoundly powerful thing. As I said groupies cling to ideals, objective/critical/free thinkers approach wisdom objectively...firing up new neurons via new thought patterns and incorporating those new neurons and expanding their perception by building a more expansive and dynamic neural network from which perceive "Reality". Reality itself is an interesting term, both from a Quantum, neurological, metaphysical, philosophical and any other point of view you care to think from. Groupies annoy me really as they drag the good people down in the publics opinion and potential to understand.

I'm beginning, just beginning, to understand the nature of Qi, only just really honestly beginning to understand the possibilities it holds as a concept. To help understand this I've buried myself in both oriental and western thinking. Today in my lesson with Bossman, we were looking through an anatomical book looking at muscle contractions involved in our tai chi movements, we discussed superposition theory, looked at conception and governor vessel energetic pathways, methods of focussing and utilising intent, internal vibrations and their affect on the mind, gravity, biomechanics and web design. All these topics were explored intellectually and practically looking at kicking, kneeing and poking around with Steve's metal knees. We looked at how our mindset directly affects our lives at a cellular level and ripples up to a macro level that is observable to anyone with the perception to see it.

That was just one day in our lives, just over an hour to be precise. Actually we even discussed spirits and how some people might "see" ghosts...as I said previously I'm beginning to see the groupies as the ones with the issues!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/08/08 08:04 PM

really interesting. any thoughts on this scientific study that the thread is about?
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/08/08 09:46 PM

Quote:


2. the baseline was cells in open air vs. cells being affected by someone thought to posess ki energy. this is incomplete. they needed to have someone with no such training as the ki-master also do the same test, then compare that.






they did

"We also tested the effect of the hands of another person (who had no Ki training and who covered the dish as shown in Fig. 1B) on the Ki inhibition of cell growth. This is a test for evaluating the effect of an intervening human tissue when Ki is emitted aiming at an internal organ afflicted by cancer. Our experiments per day consisted of three sets of 5 min control and 5 min Ki-exposure experiments (n = 3), and one or two sets of 10 min experiments (n = 1 or 2). We limited the amount of Ki-emission for the purpose of maintaining the level of the emitter's Ki-energy. In order to accumulate more data points, we performed 5 min experiments on three different days (total n = 9). Although the exact cell numbers per dish were slightly different in each experiment, by taking the ratio between the control and the Ki-exposed group, and by analyzing it with appropriate statistics we were able to obtain statistically meaningful data."
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/08/08 10:43 PM

not quite.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1193556&rendertype=figure&id=fig1

what I'm talking about is having a non-ki trained person do the equivalent of the test on the left picture.

when I asked the author of this study if he had considered that, as you recall, he replied:
Quote:

Thank you very much for your interesting question. When we wrote this paper, we were under the impression that non-practitioner cannot emit Ki. Actually, we have some data to show that this may be the case.

But recently, we have some data to show that even a non-practitioner can emit Ki to a certain degree.





so thats perhaps a definite maybe, possibly. In short: no. they did not test that. therefore there is nothing scientific about this study since it doesn't meet a very basic baseline standard.



find out what this technology is based on (is it measuring ki emitted from the user's fingers?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp-y3ZNaCqs
Posted by: flynch

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/09/08 01:32 AM

Sorry i did not read the whole thread but my Tai chi instructor would teach to cancer patients and his point was that the practice would assist with pain management and loss of appetite while the patient was taking traditional medical treatemnts.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/09/08 02:57 AM

Quote:

really interesting. any thoughts on this scientific study that the thread is about?





Was an interesting read. Don't really effect me a whole lot.

Oh, and there is no such thing as a non-Ki person.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/09/08 07:50 AM

Quote:

Oh, and there is no such thing as a non-Ki person.



This study seems to assume the opposite.

but I understand there are multiple factions of ki-related beliefs. some believe it's an inherent energy in all living things. some say only sentient beings have it. others believe it's a trainable-only skill. then there is the mix of the views that everyone has ki potential energy, but only thru training can they channel it. I've heard it described as a force that is transmitted only thru interaction with another person, or by not touching them at all and from a distance. while another might say it's a convienent construct to describe multiple and natural physical forces acting and reacting with another in real time. Then there is the 'new age' healing descriptions of ki-flow management from auras to meridians.

but of course the easiest out is to just believe it's all of this, making the term ki pretty maleable for the user answering questions about it.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/09/08 08:40 AM

I've got some pretty insane views myself.

To say something isn't scientific is like saying synthetic diamond is not a rock (despite it being created by man, it is still a rock).
Sure some parts have been overlooked, but science is asking a question and finding an answer, getting other people to poke holes or fill them in does not mean that work was not done.
The best out look for this it to be flexible, Now we have less of a reason to say that it doesn't exist, but not nessecarily more of a reason to say it does. For the beleivers side, yes, there are too meny holes to take this study at face value.
for the non beleivers, it was tried and something DID happen.

By my own theories, everyone can emit their internal force, some have "more" of it than others to start with, some have less. It can be "trained". It is a natural force (technically). Our understanding of it has indeed evolved from our early days, in the most basic of forms.

Flynch,

we're aiming at the concept of internal force, as opposed to tai chi solely. Tai Chi has health benefits Physically, as well a theorized internal energy benefits.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 12:53 AM

Quote:

To say something isn't scientific is like saying synthetic diamond is not a rock (despite it being created by man, it is still a rock).



Convince a covetous fiancée of that analogy, and you may have something there.

Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 03:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Oh, and there is no such thing as a non-Ki person.



This study seems to assume the opposite.

but I understand there are multiple factions of ki-related beliefs. some believe it's an inherent energy in all living things. some say only sentient beings have it. others believe it's a trainable-only skill. then there is the mix of the views that everyone has ki potential energy, but only thru training can they channel it. I've heard it described as a force that is transmitted only thru interaction with another person, or by not touching them at all and from a distance. while another might say it's a convienent construct to describe multiple and natural physical forces acting and reacting with another in real time. Then there is the 'new age' healing descriptions of ki-flow management from auras to meridians.

but of course the easiest out is to just believe it's all of this, making the term ki pretty maleable for the user answering questions about it.




Too assume that there are non-ki people, and non-ki anythhing for that matter, shows the complete lack of understanding that most people have of Ki. It is not an internal or external energy, it just is energy. Ki is the direct manifestation of the paradoxical forces of yin and yang. Science has already proved that Ki is effective in tackling cancer cells. Radiation is just a particular manifestation of Ki. To say the term Ki is mailable is the same as accusing the concept that everything is made up of protons, neutrons and electrons is mailable....because it is, is the very build blocks of our physical universe....

Chatting with Bossman yesterday he said this thread is like a conversation where everyone is talking to themselves!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 11:22 AM

that wasn't my assumption. it was the assumption of the study's author. heat eminating from fingertips was not excluded as the cause. Thats a very obvious exclusion. so obvious in fact, that it almost seems deliberate to exclude it.

also, other explainations were not entertained such as testing someone claiming hands-on healing power bestowed upon them by their god(s). ie: the affect of a person's faith on cancer cells.


your quote:
Quote:

Science has already proved that Ki is effective in tackling cancer cells.



Proved? thats a strong statement. care to back that up with any kind of study?


after you point out that 'proof', you may want to update wikipedia's cancer page, where it addresses a section of complementary/alternative treatment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer#Complementary_and_alternative
Quote:


Complementary and alternative
Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) treatments are the diverse group of medical and health care systems, practices, and products that are not part of conventional medicine.[8] Oncology, the study of human cancer, has a long history of incorporating unconventional or botanical treatments into mainstream cancer therapy. Some examples of this phenomenon include the chemotherapy agent paclitaxel, which is derived from the bark of the Pacific Yew tree, and ATRA, all-trans retinoic acid, a derivative of Vitamin A that induces cures in an aggressive leukemia known as acute promyelocytic leukemia. Many "complementary" and "alternative" medicines for cancer have not been studied using the scientific method, such as in well-designed clinical trials, or they have only been studied in preclinical (animal or in-vitro) laboratory studies. Many times, "complementary" and "alternative" medicines are supported by marketing materials and testimonials from users of the substances. Frequently, when these treatments are subjected to rigorous scientific testing, they are found not to work. A recent example was reported at the 2007 annual meeting of the American Society of Clinical Oncology: a Phase III clinical trial comparing shark cartilage extract to placebo in non-small cell lung cancer demonstrated no benefit of the shark cartilage extract, AE-491.[9]

"Complementary medicine" refers to methods and substances used along with conventional medicine, while "alternative medicine" refers to compounds used instead of conventional medicine[10]. A study of CAM use in patients with cancer in the July 2000 issue of the Journal of Clinical Oncology found that 69% of 453 cancer patients had used at least one CAM therapy as part of their cancer treatment.[11]

Some complementary measures include botanical medicine, such as an NIH trial currently underway testing mistletoe extract combined with chemotherapy for the treatment of solid tumors; acupuncture for managing chemotherapy-associated nausea and vomiting and in controlling pain associated with surgery; and psychological approaches such as "imaging" or meditation to aid in pain relief or improve mood.[11]

A wide range of alternative treatments have been offered for cancer over the last century. The appeal of alternative cures arises from the daunting risks, costs, or potential side effects of many conventional treatments, or in the limited prospect for cure. Some people resort to these so-called "alternative" forms of treatment in desperation or as a last resort. However, no alternative therapies have been shown in any scientific study to effectively treat cancer. Some express the view that the promotion and sale of certain alternative modalities known to be ineffective constitute quackery.[12]





That quote from above are not my words, they are the collective of literally thousands of contributers since the entry first went up in 2001.

so if you are at odds with what most believe, then it's up to you to present your case logically and not based on unrepeatable miracles, emotional inferance, or your own commercial success bias....a growing number of people can see thru that.
but if you do have evidence of proof, it would be irresponsible of you to neglect updating that wiki entry since millions of potential and current Cancer patients who are researching it for themselves or loved ones will no doubt use that as a source of consideration.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 11:48 AM

The study is not a cure for cancer Ed. But stay on that topic because it suits your needs for your arguments. But you have no proof that the study is a fake either other than your belief/opinion. There are other studies on chi too Ed besides this one. I could show you a vast amounts of studies on chi but it would be all in vain because no matter what is given to you or said you will still not believe. Its like two people arguing over god one who believes and one who doesn't. Rather redundant.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 12:26 PM

Read what I said Ed. Radiation is a manifestation of Ki. Radiation is used in the treatment of cancer patients. Stop reading a mish mash of websites and actually do some concrete study on the subject you've been obsessing about for years. Either study science in a meaningful way so we can discuss it from that point of view or study oriental theory....at the moment trying to discuss this subject is like talking with a stubborn school kid with their first Science book. Not that it's not amusing, just a bit pointless.....
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 01:50 PM

never said it was. The only thing that will someday cure cancer is Science. not quacks, flakes, wannabes, and dropouts with ki-theories selling books, giving mall massages and filling newage-MA seminars with the young looking for superpowers and middle-aged looking for the fountain of youth.

I've only demonstrated that the study presented is flawed.

the flaw is in the fact the test did not include a baseline. Nor does it exclude other explainations for it's findings. it simply states that it was ki. ...when more likely, the cause of the findings is by the radiant heat we emit from our fingertips and hands.

that's what I demonstrated in this thread and I even asked the author of the study himself. his response was basically a marketing pitch for a ki breathing method.

what have we seen from the counter-argument in this thread? attempt after attempt to discredit me personally, while not addressing the study itself.


people, in order to debate, you have to show how the study is true...NOT by simply trying to make the questioners of it false.


gavin:
Quote:

Radiation is a manifestation of Ki


ok, point to the basis of that statement. and if you are asserting that ki is an fundamental force in physics, then it is ki-believers that have the burden of presenting their case to the world organizations of physicists. once ki-belief is accepted as a theory, then we can start a whole new conversation on a different level and you won't need to resort to devolving your arguments.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 03:40 PM

Ed there are people out there that have a lot more knowledge on this than either of us. I highly doubt that you Ed morris can prove him to be a flake, because you and I are not the only ones to see this study.

Yes there are flaws to the study. But being able to be the armchair quarterback is quite easy. I also think you are a little [censored] at the author for not answering you two silly questions on chi balls and no touch knockouts.

One study does not prove or disprove "chi" but you may think it does. There are many studies on "chi" I just don't post them all on one thread so we don't get overloaded on them. But in a week I will post another one we can talk about.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 04:36 PM

Quote:

you won't need to resort to devolving your arguments.





I ain't arguing with anyone Ed...you don't have a perspective from either an eastern or western approach that would warrant me arguing with you....besides arguing would denote I have something that I need to convince you of. I'm comfortable with both my world view and scientific understanding to not need to argue. This is just entertainment mate!
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 04:48 PM

Let it be said that madmen and scholars alike in search for truth will indefinitely rip apart every and all theory until they can argue no more,

It is possible that ki is a form of radiation, I'm not a physicist, but I have a feeling It's sub-infrared in terms of wavelength (wavelength is longer).

And Ed, It Even says that they did the same thing with someone who did not know how to control their Ki, and then tested it to see if it was heat by having the dish completely covered by a hand.

And for everyone else, We should take such arguments seriously, there's a slim chance we might actually learn something.

On another nore, Ed Is right, With the emergement of Ki there's gonna be all sorts of martial arts popping up left right and center with kids who want superpowers signing up in droves. Wether or not this is real, What are the consequences of releasing it if it is? Will Ki based diseases begin to pop up? What is The equillibrium to harnessing a potential source of energy that comes from our very hands allowing us to do feats we thought impossible?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 07:17 PM

Quote:

It Even says that they did the same thing with someone who did not know how to control their Ki, and then tested it to see if it was heat by having the dish completely covered by a hand.



That's exactly the flaw I'm talking about. This is key:

test 1: they have a ki-trained person project from fingertips to cells.

test 2: they have an untrained person cover the dish, and ki-trained person projects ki.


untested cause of test 1: heat eminating from ki-trained persons hand affected the cells.

untested cause of test 2: heat eminating from non-trained persons hand affected the cells.


in other words, the tests did not take into account even the possibility that it could have been heat transfer to the cells.

let's say they did determine it is heat that caused the cancer cells to react the way they did...that would eliminate the need to even mention ki in the study, right? exactly. thats why they didn't test with that sort of baseline. their whole reason for 'publishing' the study in the first place was to add weight to the ki-based material they are pushing: ki breathing methods with health benefit claims.

listen, I don't care who I rub the wrong way - or even if, god forbid, I lose Gavin's best friend status.
If my jotted down ramblings cause someone to think instead of blindly accept anything produced by anyone official sounding, that uses the word 'ki'...then it's worth a few ruffled feathers.

{hey, where is wristwister? about now is the time I'd expect him to pop in and give a drive-by semi-automatic insult. let's see, will he go with the 'google-fu' demeaning, the 'your just jealous of my powaz' angle, or will it be in the form of a "I know a guy..." ancedote? lol j/k WT}
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/10/08 09:27 PM

Quote:

It is possible that ki is a form of radiation, I'm not a physicist, but I have a feeling It's sub-infrared in terms of wavelength (wavelength is longer).





http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=73068

Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/11/08 03:55 AM

Quote:


listen, I don't care who I rub the wrong way - or even if, god forbid, I lose Gavin's best friend status.





No offence Ed, but best friend is probably a bit strong...favourite online sparring partner is more accurate.

Let's just have one more attempt at understanding why this whole subject is a bit silly, pointless and ultimately a waste of effort...coz we're approaching it from the wrong perspective.

Ok, in my previous life (and one that unfortunately isn't quite dead yet! )I've been a Network Engineer for a UK Internet Provider. Over the internet we send a whole host of applications like email, web browsing, downloading movies, playing games, talking to your Granny halfway around the world and some even more carnal activities. The thing is, at a network level, when your data hits the wire, at a base level, whatever your doing on the Internet (or on a computer in fact) can be broken down to either a "1" or a "0". By the time your Internet activities hit my level in the proceedings, be it email or porn, its binary. Whether its going out over a fibre optic cable as light, a copper cable as an electric charge or being broadcast out over a radio wave ultimately its perceived at either end as a 1 or a 0. By interpreting these huge strings of 1's and 0's our computers create the experience that we perceive as the internet. Everything we do on a computer, or anything digital, is at it's base level a 1 or 0. Regardless of how we perceive the way the 1's and 0's manifest, computer games, MP3's, a telephone conversation, anything can still be broken down to a logical binary sequence of information.

So long winded analogy aside, the fundamental governing principle behind Ki is Yin and Yang. In fact it is said that all Ki is merely the manifestation of the interaction of Yin and Yang, or the change between the two states of existence. It's that simple. Everything we perceive, experience, smell, touch, love and dismiss can be observed within the Yin/Yang state of existence. Physics can be observed within this model, Quantum physics can be observed, metaphysics can be observed, Philosophy can be observed, Art, Food, Health....

Science is governed by Yin and Yang, cause and effect. I study both Eastern and Western medical thought. The Western stuff I believe has the edge in discussing the physical anatomy of the human condition, the East is brilliant at discussing and understanding the physiology. The west can break down the physical and understanding the sum of the part, but is fuzzy and bitty when explaining the whole. The East is fantastic at understanding the holistic picture of the universe at all levels of existence.

I don't know I really can't explain it any more simply than that. It requires a paradigm shift in perception to understand the implications of the intertwining of the two worlds, and that is where many people have trouble understanding. Just as it would be hard for your average Joe to picture that an email and an MP3 file are actually the same at a base level, just different manifestations of 1's and 0's. Infrared and Sound waves are made up of exactly the same stuff we are, at a base level.....this works in classical physics, Quantum physics and Yin/Yang theory. I mentioned earlier (and it was dismissed as "interesting") about how interesting the concept of "free thought" is from a neurological point of view, but our brain is hardware for processing reality and as a consequence a tool for perceiving it. Unless we expand our universal view we will not be able to understand concepts that are new to us. It's interesting that through our thought processes we can re-wire our brain, and also strengthen patterns of previous perception. So if you approach a subject without entertaining the possibility change, you'll perceive new data using your brains existing wiring, and as such find it very difficult to change or expand your world view.

So long ramble over, arguing about the existence of Ki is very silly as it is merely the manifestation of the interplay between Yin and Yang, the 1's and 0's of life. So the wording of the experiment shouldn't be "Does Ki exist?" because that is a stupid question. We should ask, "Can a human being manifest a form of Ki, naturally, that is effective in treating Cancer?". Or you can reword that to suit western audiences better, "Can the human body emit a form of energy that is effective at treating Cancer?". We know that there are forms of energy, forms of Ki, that are effective in treatment, Sound waves, radiowaves, electromagnetic.....yada yada, question is can the human body, if harnessed properly, emit these energies and if so how. We know that it is possible within the Animal Kingdom to naturally emit various energies. Can humans be engineered, trained or developed to do so?

Forget trying to prove that Ki exists, because if you understand the concept that is given, get the people who do supernormal things and figure out how they do it and how to replicate it. Forget the people that have egotistical pursuits like knocking each other out from twenty foot away, figure out how some people make dramatic recoveries from supposedly fatal diseases and study those that achieve great things for man kind. That's what I want to see!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/11/08 07:12 AM

wow Gavin, how many years to come up with the 0-1 yin/yang analogy? thats deep.

so, I should be asking can humans train to emit a 420Mhz RF signal? or should I be asking if human ki transmitters need FCC approval?

Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/11/08 07:17 AM

Quote:

so, I should be asking can humans train to emit a 420Mhz RF signal?




Only if they're ultra high !

I think that'll conclude my participation here....
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/11/08 02:31 PM

that was pretty funny actually
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/12/08 06:13 AM

Don't know what's sadder...me actually remembering that frequency range or you for getting the joke???
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/12/08 02:27 PM

the former
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/12/08 03:30 PM

Posted by: eyrie

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/12/08 07:20 PM

Quote:

it is merely the manifestation of the interplay between Yin and Yang, the 1's and 0's of life.


Equating binary state representation to yin/yang is a bit of an over-simplification. Let's not forget that binary 1's and 0's is a state representation of analogue signals - it is the peaks (+) and troughs (-) of frequency amplitude that's used to arbitrarily represent discrete "states" of "on" or "off" - i.e. 1 or 0. Yes, even your "Digital" Video Disc works on the same principle of external analogue conversion to internal digital representation.

As you well know, the theoretical principle of yin/yang is not as black and white as 0's and 1's (pun intended). Sometimes, you need to see all the different shades of gray that make up the colorful spectrum of life (even worse pun). It is extreme to believe or insist that things exist only at the extremes - like hot and cold, there are degrees (really bad pun) in between.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/12/08 08:16 PM

Maybe it should be explained like breathing... you are always in either the act of inhaling or exhaling.. except for the point where you change over... once on the exhale, once on the inhale cycle. Your lungs are never quite "empty" and never quite "full"... but they continue to do the process of transferring oxygen and expelling CO2...

Oh hell... now I'm a polluter...



Sorry guys... I just couldn't pass that up...
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/12/08 09:20 PM

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V122/N1/1conf.1n.html

SITE MENU:
FRONT PAGE | NEWS | OPINION | ARTS | SPORTS | CAMPUS LIFE | PHOTOS | ADVERTISING INFO | ABOUT
Last Published: February 12, 2008Boston Weather: 29 °F | OvercastVolume 122 >> Issue 1 : Tuesday, February 5, 2002No PDF Available
MIT Group Promotes Alternative Medicines
By Pey-Hua Hwang
STAFF REPORTER

On Feb. 3, the MIT and Harvard Yan Xin Qigong Associations held a banquet to celebrate a successful conference from Dec. 8 to Dec. 9, 2001 which was attended by over 500 scientists and over 200 scientific papers and experimental reports were presented.

Provost Robert A. Brown, Vice President of Research and Associate Provost Alice P. Gast, and Dean for Graduate Students Isaac M. Colbert, all sent their support for this novel form of medical health treatment. Colbert even said that he would “recommend Yan Xin Qigong and as a possible Physical Education class.”

Yan Xin Qigong is an ancient method for healing and fitness. Its practice in Asia dates back 3500 to 5000 years. The rudimentary principles, which literally involve “working with energy” can be found in acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine, the martial arts, and many health disciplines.

What differentiates Yan Xin Qigong from other alternative medicines is that it has been subjected to many scientific experiments and has proved effective in reducing the poisonous effects of hydrogen peroxide and keeping neural cells from aging among other positive effects. Yajun Sang G said “this is the only qigong to my knowledge that pays attention to scientific research.”

Researchers praise practice

Dr. Ming Dao, Conference Co-Chair Advisor of MIT Yan Xin Qigong Association, opened the speakers list by commenting on the success of the conference and reading the messages of support from the various MIT deans. He then turned over the speaker to Ms. Na An, a lab manager in the MIT Biology Department who gave a personal testimonial about the positive effects of qigong on both her mental and physical health as well as on the mental and physical health of her family.

“My husband’s 30 year habit of drinking,” she said, “was completely reversed.”

Dr. Denise O'Hara, a principle research scientist at the Genetic Institute, gave a presentation on some of the various scientific testing that been performed on Yan Xin Qigong using treated and untreated tissue cultures and the exciting results. The ability of the Qi to kill cancer cell lines while leaving healthy cell lines untouched was particularly notable.

Deans support research

Associate Dean for Graduate Students Blanche Staton and Assistant Director and International Student Advisor Maria Brennan also spoke and voiced their support of the technique. “I’m looking forward to learning about [Yan Xin Qigong], and I’m sure you’ll be around to teach me,” she said

Dr. Yan Xin first visited Boston in the summer of 1990. Invited by research groups on life science at MIT, he delivered academic lectures on life science technology. Later he was invited a number of times to give academic lectures and conduct experiments at Harvard University.

Interested researchers from various departments of Harvard Medical School and MIT, including the Dana Farber Cancer Institute, the Harvard School of Public Health, and MIT's Biology Department attended the recent Harvard-MIT Yan Xin Life Science Technology Research Conference. One of the most important announcements to the researchers at the conference was the successful killing of 21 types of cancer cells by Yan Xin Life Science Technology serial product XY-Yang Sheng Su, a powder supposedly treated with Qi, and the external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong.

In a world where antibiotic resistance continues to increase and carcinogens are omnipresent, Yan Xin Qigong may become a new avenue to explore, with MIT researchers potentially leading the way.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/12/08 10:06 PM

"new" avenue to explore? that was from 2001 and so far, we haven't seen any qigong-treated miracles.

also, the Dali Lama also visited MIT and Harvard, does that make reincarnation proven?

anyway, here's another view...
Quote:


BACKGROUND: Practitioners of the alternative medical practice 'external Qigong' generally claim the ability to emit or direct "healing energy" to treat patients. We investigated the ability of experienced Qigong practitioners to enhance the healthy growth of cultured human cells in a series of studies, each following a rigorously designed protocol with randomization, blinding and controls for variability. METHODS: Qigong practitioners directed healing intentionality toward normal brain cell cultures in a basic science laboratory. Qigong treatments were delivered for 20 minutes from a minimum distance of 10 centimeters. Cell proliferation was measured by a standard colony-forming efficiency (CFE) assay and a CFE ratio (CFE for treated samples/CFE for sham samples) was the dependent measure for each experiment. RESULTS: During a pilot study (8 experiments), a trend of increased cell proliferation in Qigong-treated samples (CFE Qigong/sham ratios > 1.0) was observed (P = 0.162). In a formal study (28 experiments), a similar trend was observed, with Qigong-treated samples showing on average more colony formation than sham samples (P = 0.036). In a replication study (60 experiments), no significant difference between Qigong-treated samples and sham samples was observed (P = 0.465). CONCLUSION: We observed an apparent increase in the proliferation of cultured cells following external Qigong treatment by practitioners under strictly controlled conditions, but we did not observe this effect in a replication study. These results suggest the need for more controlled and thorough investigation of external Qigong before scientific validation is claimed.

full text at:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/4/5

As you can see from this extract, the results were negative. There were lots of controls, and Yount said that positive results in the Chinese literature didn't have such tight controls. Also, he feels that they did selective reporting. A look at his points in Fig. 1 of the paper shows that even when two controls were compared to each other, differences of between 10- and 100-fold could show up in the assay, showing the possibility for errors.

He then went on to describe another series of experiments. This time cells were followed by video cameras that took images every five minutes. Cell growth and death was monitored for individual cells. Instead of qigong, johrei, a Japanese technique, was used. Again, there were no significant effects of the healers. This study is also available on-line at:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/5/2

Next he talked about experiments where people try to "perceive the presence of cultured human cells without visual clues." The abstract is at:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...&query_hl=1

Again, the results were negative.

He noted that a study performed by other researchers also found no effect: Br J Cancer. 2005 Sep 5;93(5):538-43. The effect of spiritual healing on in vitro tumour cell proliferation and viability--an experimental study. Zachariae R, Hojgaard L, Zachariae C, Vaeth M, Bang B, Skov L.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...&query_hl=3

Throughout the talk he gave the impression of someone who really felt that the healers had some kind of power, and wanted to see positive effects, but he designed his experiments so carefully that nothing significant ever came out. Almost as if to give the audience some hope to cling to, he then presented a published study that did have positive results:

Brain Res. 2004 May 1;1006(2):198-206 (Erratum in: Brain Res. 2004 May 22;1008 (2)299-300.) Involvement of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase and insulin-like growth factor-I in YXLST-mediated neuroprotection. Yan X, Shen H, Zaharia M, Wang J, Wolf D, Li F, Lee GD, Cao W. American New Medicine Institute, New York, NY 10107, USA.

Abstract:
In the present study, we examine the neuroprotective role of the external Qi of YXLST in cultured retinal neurons. Primary retinal neuronal cultures were grown from retinas of 0-2-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Cultures were treated directly with external Qi of YXLST 30 min prior to H(2)O(2) exposure in most experiments. Cell viability was measured by 3,(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)2,5-diphenyl-tetrazolium bromide (MTT) assay. Apoptotic cell death was evaluated by the TdT-mediated digoxigenin-dUTP nick-end labeling TUNEL assay, and by DNA laddering analysis. Northern blot analysis was performed to examine the level of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) gene expression. Phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K) assay was performed to study the PI3K activity. The results showed that treatment of external Qi of YXLST significantly attenuated neuronal death that was induced by 24-h exposure to hydrogen peroxide, and greatly inhibited hydrogen peroxide-induced apoptosis. External Qi of YXLST also upregulated IGF-I gene expression and increased PI3K activity. These observations indicate that external Qi-mediated IGF-I expression and PI3K signaling could be one of the mechanisms in neuroprotection by YXLST.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...&query_hl=1

Although this paper is published in a regular medical journal, it has some strange aspects. First, it uses in the title and the abstract, with no explanation, an unconventional acronym, "YXLST." Not until the Introduction does the reader find out that this stands for Yan Xin Life Sciences and Technology, and Yan Xin is the first author of the paper (Yan is his family name, so he is listed as "Xin Yan" as author, but in the text he is called "Dr. Yan Xin"). Here is his web site, with testimonials such as "Dr. Yan Xin is a sage of our times" from President Bush in 1990:
http://www.yanxinqigong.net/

Second, and more important, the paper reports incredible results from a paranormal treatment: "The treatment of external Qi of YXLST involved in the emitting external Qi from Dr. Yan Xin toward the neuronal culture for 10 min in each session." In Fig. 1, external qi is shown to reduce cell killing by hydrogen peroxide. The treatment killed about 80% of the cells, but when hydrogen peroxide and external qi were combined, nearly 100% viability was maintained! In Fig. 2, apoptosis (programmed cell death) is measured. Control cells look like they have about 3%; hydrogen peroxide increases this to 44%; hydrogen peroxide plus qi give about 4%. In Fig. 3, phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K), an enzyme involved in regulation of cell metabolism and protection from apoptosis, is measured at various times after treatment of control cells by external qi. The activity increases about 4-fold after 0.5 h and 6-fold after 1 h. Fig. 4 looks at cells pretreated or not with qi, then given H2O2 or not for 24 h. H2O2 slightly reduced PI3K activity, qi increased it 2-fold; and H2O2 plus qi resulted in a 1.7-fold increase. Fig. 5 looks at expression of the gene for insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I); qi treatment causes about a 2-fold effect on gene expression 1 h later. Fig. 6 is like Fig. 4, only this time with IGF-I expression rather than PI3K activity; again, there is a slight negative effect of H2O2 which is overcome by qi.

The discussion notes the many wondrous properties of Yan Xin's qi: "The effects or existence of external Qi of YXLST can be physically confirmed using modern methodologies/instruments...It has been reported that external Qi of YXLST produces significant structural changes in water and aqueous solutions, alters the phase behavior of dipalmitoyl phosphatidyl choline liposome, and enables the growth of Fab protein crystals, and improves large-scale industrial productions of antibiotics. It has been demonstrated that external Qi of YXLST can modulate PI3K enzyme activity. It has also been reported that XY99-5038, a product of external Qi of YXLST, can prolong the survival of neurons and inhibit H2O2-induced apoptosis, and induce IGF-I gene expression detected by cDNA microarray analysis." In the introduction, it is also noted that it "can alter the rate of decay of radioactive isotopes, the polarization plane of a linearly polarized laser beam, the laser Raman spectrum and UV absorption of water...and the requisite conditions for gas phase chemical synthesis." (numbers of literature citations deleted from quotes)

With abilities like this, one wonders why Yan Xin doesn't demonstrate his powers for James Randi's $1 million prize.

The article concludes with acknowledgement of grant support - which included the Yan Xin Foundation, a grant from "Research to Prevent Blindness," and two grants from the National Institutes of Health! (Yount's research on qigong was also supported by NIH, through the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine).

Back to the seminar: after discussing the Yan Xin work, Yount concluded with some case report concerning Johrei. Then, remarkably for a seminar with an outside speaker, there was not a single question from the audience - perhaps because no data had been presented supporting the existence of spiritual healing of cancer cells.



Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 03:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

it is merely the manifestation of the interplay between Yin and Yang, the 1's and 0's of life.


Equating binary state representation to yin/yang is a bit of an over-simplification. Let's not forget that binary 1's and 0's is a state representation of analogue signals - it is the peaks (+) and troughs (-) of frequency amplitude that's used to arbitrarily represent discrete "states" of "on" or "off" - i.e. 1 or 0. Yes, even your "Digital" Video Disc works on the same principle of external analogue conversion to internal digital representation.

As you well know, the theoretical principle of yin/yang is not as black and white as 0's and 1's (pun intended). Sometimes, you need to see all the different shades of gray that make up the colorful spectrum of life (even worse pun). It is extreme to believe or insist that things exist only at the extremes - like hot and cold, there are degrees (really bad pun) in between.




Ultimately mate it is as simple as 1's and 0's. If at any one point in the manifestation of anything, be it thought, sound, love, anger, stars, galaxies, atoms, ducks, geese and even Ed you can freeze frame the procedure and clearly identify the Yin and Yang state within that manifestation. Then you can then take either the Yin or the Yang from that manifestation and find a Yin and Yang state within it also. Then you can take the manifestation of that manifestation and find more Yin and Yang states of existence. So, like binary, although simple at a base level it becomes infinitely complex when you start trying to track existence. It is when you actually start tracking the manifestations of Yin and Yang that you start noticing patterns and by observing these patterns the wonderfully accurate methods of observations such as the 5 Element Theory came about. Although you'll be aware that 5 element theory really is a bit of a red herring, I much prefer the more precise translation of 5 Transformation or 5 Phases, these being Water, Wood, Fire, Earth and Metal. With the 5 phases being a poetic, extremely precise, analysis of Yin/Yang transformations.

I kept it simple for the level it was being pitched at in the thread and to illustrate how silly some of the bickering was. Seemingly it didn't work, the same old tired narrow minded arguments just spring up as soon as they can. Still it's entertaining watching narrow minded people hop from one foot to the t'other t'aint it???? Groupies, huh?
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 07:47 AM

Ed I would rather take the advice of MIT and Harvard researchers over people who have no background in this. Like myself or you.

Gavin good posts.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 08:28 AM

whats more entertaining is seeing meatheads who barely finished HS trying to use big words like 'manifestation' in sentences.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 08:29 AM

well, when you find a study done by researchers, let us know.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 08:44 AM

Good luck Ed.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 05:50 PM

Ed, when you find universities better than MIT or Harvard that can live up to your scientific background let me know. It's good to know Ed that you have the qualifications to disprove their studies. Lets see who has more respect from the scientific community Ed Morris or Harvard/Herbert Benson? The fact that these colleges keep studying something you find silly says enough. Look at how much "chi" effects you Ed. Something you do not even believe in but yet you spend so much time posting about it. It's like a atheist on christian forum.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 06:10 PM

opposing viewpoints are useful. Whatever insight can be provided is often useful. We should not blindly follow this brand-name science, but ask questions of it.
Just like these institutes ask questions about something that many in the scientific community deny, It is good to have someone in turn question them. Thusly we all grow together as a whole, each learning from the other.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 06:34 PM

I think it's great people question things. But when you do not have the qualifications to disprove a study then it is only opinion. There's no prominent scientists calling these people frauds only non scientists are. It's like a middle school flag football coach trying to sound like a high paid professional coach, not legit.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 07:57 PM

look around on these forums. I see that everyone has opinions. it would be pretty dull if people just posted links to studies and didn't comment or discuss with opinion. not that it makes me qualified any more or less, but I attended Harvard grad. school if it makes you feel better to know I'm sharing opinion, just like you give your opinion of deeming who is qualified or not. well, you aren't qualified to deem my opinion unqualified. you are like a high school student trying to tell everyone who is or isn't college educated...not legit.


by the way, if you read posts instead of reacting with emotions - I'm not saying Harvard & MIT don't have qualified researchers- I'm saying the studies you have presented are not produced by researchers...they are produced and funded by people who have a vested interest in promoting alternative medicine. The first study, I demonstrated with proof that the vested interest was pushing their ki product. This 'latest' (circa 2001) study, the apparent agenda is beefing their Qigong health benefits.

besides all that, I've not heard one opinion from you that qualifies as a logical argument. the best you and the hopers on this thread can do is put down the people questioning instead of addressing the arguements with logic - as if you are trying to win a popularity contest instead of engaging in debate.

when you are ready to debate, let me know. until then, you are just another dullard of magical thinking, going with opinions you wish to be true but not able to articulate why.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 08:35 PM

Opinion means nothing to you Ed. Enough people on here have given their opinion to you and for what, to be mocked and ridiculed for what they believe in. To be told to "prove it". I don't need to give my opinion on here about this topic. Herbert Benson has much better qualifications than I do or you Ed. You may call what you do a debate, but really its just to goad and mock people. Why else would a person spend so much time on something they don't believe in?

Again Ed. Just your opinion without anymore background in this than myself. Magical thinker? Maybe but still better than a troll. But a troll with opinions. Gee that's something new Ed.

Debating with me is rather pointless since neither one of us garnish any sway whatsoever with the scientific community on this topic. And I think people's beliefs on topic are already in place regardless what either one of us say.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 09:46 PM

"Opinions are like a$$holes, we all have one and they all stink!"
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 09:59 PM

ok, anonymous. if you stop posting studies, then I'll stop giving opinion on them - that sound good and fair to you, anonymous?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 10:09 PM

besides, it's not only my opinion these guys are whacked with agenda.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28808.html

even Harvard gets it wrong when funds are right sometimes.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 10:30 PM

"The likely truth is that Eisenberg was hoodwinked. His fellow Qi investigator Dr. Herbert Benson, who appears in Encounters With Qi and now directs Harvard's Mind/Body Medical Institute, says of external Qi Gong: "I've traveled to China to study this. I've seen nothing that defied physical laws.""


And Dr. Benson is the one name I keep mentioning. Nothing bad was said about him in that article. I never once posted anything from his counterpart. Thanks for helping me give some credit to Dr. Benson.

Yes there are several quacks in this field. The research is still new. With more funding comes better designed tests more insight and it will slowly weed out the quacks.

Ed, I know there is nothing I can say that will make any difference, but every year there is more and more research being done. The good news for me is that Harvard, Cambridge, and Oxford are interested in this and trying to do the best they can.

Yes Ed I am a little bit anonymous. Our posts total clearly tell that. Brian said it quite well about opinions. I just don't need to stink up the air as much as others.

By the way the author Chris Mooney has several books for sale. Since he has a financial stake in what he says, does that make it any less legit? Because I have heard that point being made somewhere.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 10:42 PM

perhaps you didn't get the gist of the article. People like Eisenberg who are mainly concerned with legitimacy, not scientific method, are well funded and using legit universities to lobby for state license...despite the lack of scientific foundation in claims of treatment. Dr. Benson's niche isn't qi-based, it's faith-based, but he's using the same mechanism to push his agenda via Eisenberg's bubble.

it's big, and you have to see it with a bird's eye view or you miss what's going on.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 10:49 PM

Ed, I got the gist. Chris Mooney is a author. He is not a doctor. He writes books for a living. Tries to sell them to a certain group of people. Tries to put out the best product he probably can. And make some money.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 11:09 PM

thats where your/my/all judgement calls and opinions come in. we look at what both sides are presenting as an argument and then make up our own minds. you and I just happen to come to different conclusions. that's fine with me....I just find it hypocritical to rely on Science's medical breakthrus, yet praise the fringe when they self-report unsubstantiated faith-healing miracles in their larger quest towards institutional legitimacy....but hey, thats just me.
While people are screwing around with paying a fortune for some witch-doctor to poke needles in them, Science will be quietly continuing to add years to the average life expectancy.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/13/08 11:19 PM

"While people are screwing around with paying a fortune for some witch-doctor to poke needles in them, Science will be quietly continuing to add years to the average life expectancy."

It's best to stay away from the heroin "witch doctors".
I could use a couple extra years in this life. More time for golf.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/14/08 05:24 AM

Quote:

Opinion means nothing to you Ed. Enough people on here have given their opinion to you and for what, to be mocked and ridiculed for what they believe in. To be told to "prove it". I don't need to give my opinion on here about this topic. Herbert Benson has much better qualifications than I do or you Ed. You may call what you do a debate, but really its just to goad and mock people. Why else would a person spend so much time on something they don't believe in?

Again Ed. Just your opinion without anymore background in this than myself. Magical thinker? Maybe but still better than a troll. But a troll with opinions. Gee that's something new Ed.

Debating with me is rather pointless since neither one of us garnish any sway whatsoever with the scientific community on this topic. And I think people's beliefs on topic are already in place regardless what either one of us say.




Quote of the thread for me.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/14/08 07:36 AM

my favorite was this manifestation:
Quote:

you can freeze frame the procedure and clearly identify the Yin and Yang state within that manifestation. Then you can then take either the Yin or the Yang from that manifestation and find a Yin and Yang state within it also. Then you can take the manifestation of that manifestation and find more Yin and Yang states of existence.


Posted by: MattJ

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/14/08 09:22 AM


Quote:

you can freeze frame the procedure and clearly identify the Yin and Yang state within that manifestation. Then you can then take either the Yin or the Yang from that manifestation and find a Yin and Yang state within it also. Then you can take the manifestation of that manifestation and find more Yin and Yang states of existence.




Sounds like Quantum theory!
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/14/08 09:22 AM

Glad you liked it Ed. As I said mate, Good luck!
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/14/08 09:27 AM

Quote:

Sounds like Quantum theory!





Posted by: bonjopi

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/17/08 11:40 PM

I always get a little upset when I glance at these public forums involving martial arts and mediation. So much doubt.
When you start to train in martial arts there are two things
you need to get started. Faith and imagination. There is such
an energy as Chi or Qi or whatever you want to use. You have to have faith that this energy exists. You need imagination
in the beginning, that is the tool that explains how the real tools work. The reason that no one can come up with a
demonstration of how chi operates that could be appreciated
by the science community, is that chi operates at a level that is outside of most peoples awareness. When you train
in martial arts and meditation, everything you do is to get
your awareness up. You need a real master to take you to the level of "Energy Awareness". That is where chi operates.
This level of movement is invisible to most people. So is air and electricity and magnetism; some of the most powerful
forces we know about. You could do internal movements in a crowd of people and no one would know what you are doing.
The only people that can show you that stuff are the masters. They don't show you anything until you get there because they know you would not understand otherwise. So this is the predicament of martial arts and mediation. If you can't tell weather someone is a master or not, how should you proceed.
My notions of martial arts when I started compared to now are so far apart - different world's, the only two aspects that remain from the beginning are faith and imagination.
Chi is something that has to be cultivated. Like growing a flower, requires time and effort. You could start out right away by using your imagination to channel your chi where you
need the help. Imagination is one of the keys that unlocks the doors. So to all those thinkers out there trying to
dissect martial arts and meditation. These skills are above
your opinions. They were put together long before modern science showed up on the scene.
The training in martial arts is designed to be very hard
because getting the body relaxed enough to flow Chi properly
is the goal. When you do Tai Chi slowly for years and years
the reason for that is that your body learns how to align the techniques properly. If you throw a high speed technique
improperly you can do internal damage.
I'll give you an example of internal movement from my own experience, so you'll have a reference point.
I was doing a lot of Tai Chi and meditation training in my early years. I was at home alone, no one else in the house, doing a Tai Chi form and something punched me. I felt the blow the same way you would if someone actually hit you. I stopped training for six months.
This type of movement is nothing like what you hear about
in the books or movies or forums. If you scare easily stay away from Martial Arts.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 03:10 AM

Unfortuantely mate, whilst I can see where you're coming from I think you're about to get torn to pieces by our resident sceptics. It's best, when discussing things such as this its best to stick mainly with the nuts and bolts rather than the stuff that you notice and experience as a result of those nuts and bolts. As you said its all a matter of awareness and most won't appreciate where you are coming through and you'll probably experience ridicule more than discussion.
Posted by: bonjopi

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 03:49 AM

One of the techniques Kung Fu people use when they get
annoyed is to explain what cost them dearly and you
can pretend the information is irrelevant. This is a martial arts forum. There are very few people with access to "awareness energy". There are a lot of people that have
very bad energy flow, very negative.
I have witnessed more than I care to share in the field
of people affecting each other, good and bad.
Chi and martial arts are nothing like you could ever imagine. There are very few people with the courage to look.
Of all the people I have shown internal martial arts techniques to, none have come back for a second look.
I apologize for my abruptness, I realized a long time
ago this stuff is fun and games for most. The reason I posted was to express my concern, if the information is
irrelevant, you should be able to easily forget about it.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 07:36 AM

If asking rational questions is considered ridicule or negative, then don't answer them.
I guess the first question you could ask yourself is, did you post in order to recieve questions or were you announcing?

here are my other questions for you, if you are brave enough to address them:
1. any thoughts about the topic of the thread?

2. Can someone believing and harnessing chi live longer than someone who does not?

3. Can someone believing and harnessing the energy force you are talking about, defend themselves/fight/do anything more effectively than someone who does not ?

4. If there are no physical or external observable effects from harnessing the energy you describe, then are these effects confined to the spiritual?

thanks in advance.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 08:29 AM

1
2 So far so good
3 there's a chance
4 I think there's something a little "outside" our current studies in science, not too long ago we learned that protons, electrons, and other quarks and subatoms actually decay into radiation, something we never quite realized before

Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if some day some bored monk walks out of the himilayas and kamehameha's india,
ok yeah I would be surprised, I be downright flabbergasted, but mainly because he blew up india
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 09:24 AM

just to be clear - is it your belief that people harnessing/training in a chi-based discipline, live longer lives?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 09:43 AM

Am I correct in thinking that you're materialistic enough to believe quantity equals quality????
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 09:50 AM

addressing either is ok. does a chi-based discipline improve the quality of life over and above other diciplines? my only point for asking is, there is no indication whatsoever that studying/mastering chi-based diciplines provide any type of advantage which other discipline 'frameworks' do not - therefore it simply boils down to preference. Similar to religeous preference. since you can't say one faith provides a better quality/quantity of life than another.

would you agree?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 10:00 AM

Ultimately Ed, there'll all the same..just looked at from a different perspectives. Some are more precise with their results than others, some gloss over important parts of the puzzle. Hence why I study a multitude of different approaches to ensure a complete picture. As I've continued to say it's all Chi in my world, others have different names, but some find ways to interact with it better than others. Some spend so much time arguing about it that they hardly interact with it at all. It's all in the mind. All reality ends up getting built there...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 10:13 AM

I agree with you.
Posted by: bonjopi

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 10:27 AM

The way chi and physical movement combine in martial arts
is the same way the body and mind connect in meditation.
Everyones body has chi. When people upset you emotionally
or you feel bad about being around a particular person the chi
is what is getting affected. The reverse is also true. Being around a person who is brimming with life is usually an uplifting experience.

If you look at the techniques in a Hung Gar form - the Tiger/Crane form for example, you will wonder why these
techniques seem so nasty, so deadly, so unpleasant to do to
somebody.
With that in mind here is a quick answer to your questions.
The chi can affect every cell of your body, positively or negatively. If you get sick (and there aren't too many people
that get through life unscathed), chi will help protect you. Can chi help with cancer?. My mother died of cancer. I was sitting around the table with her at dinner one evening
and she said "I have to get my little rabbits to eat my cancer cells" something she heard in the books she read about cancer.
Chi doesn't work like that. Chi works at the level that nothing should be allowed to come into your body from the outside. The better you get the less affected you get
by the outside world. Most people if you listen to them talk
when they are sick, they will say stuff like, I have cancer, or I own this disease or that ailment. Most people flow the world into themselves. They absorb like sponges the junk
that is floating around. To harness and use chi you have to
reverse that flow. You have to flow from the inside out.
If you get sick you should tell yourself that you have
superpowers, you can win, your worth the effort. Medical science is only part of the equation.
Chi can help in every way, if you read any books about
internal arts you will usually come across the statement
that if the flow of chi is impeded the body will eventually
get sick. So simple logic; and a lot of martial arts can be
reduced to some fairly simple statements - simple logic says; if the chi flows freely the body will stay healthy.
If you stay healthy, you live longer. If your more aware
of the dangers of everyday life your less likely to get
caught unprotected.
I didn't know enough to help my mother. My father I have helped. He turns 90 next month.
The reason most people flounder with martial art is because
the version they get is so watered down you can't taste it.
I asked two Masters the same question because the situation
in my life seemed more combative that I thought it should be. I got the same answer from both of them. When someone
attacks you unprovoked, what is the right coarse of action?
The way I got the answer was to attack both of them unprovoked, (you'll only get one chance to do that)
In the process I became aware of how they protected themselves. In both cases the consequences to me were very bad. I needed the answer and the answer wasn't pretty.
Back to the first part of this equation; why do martial art
techniques seem so nasty.
Answer; because if you have the stomach to see how nasty
people can be and how upset people get when you show them
that you can beat them you'll have a better appreciation
for where martial arts is coming from.
The big problem with chi is that; what you come into this
world with, needs cleaning. To clean something you have to
get involved with the dirt. You have to stay with the dirt
until you get the mess cleaned up. When you get up there
to where that starts getting cleaned up, you see the difference between clean and dirty and you realize how to clean and how much work is involved; that is when the
notion that if you don't get dirty in the first place life
will be a lot more relaxing comes into play.
So what do the masters teach, you think they teach martial
arts and meditation and stuff like that. The real masters will only show you one thing; the consequences of what you do. Something very few people study.
Question 3; can someone use chi to fight?
Chi isn't something separate from yourself. When you listen
to these forums and people talk the conversation is usually
setup to view chi as something separate, something you have
to get, some type of magic power that cool people possess.
Chi is part of the package. When I was with my teacher he didn't talk about chi. You want to know about that stuff, they show you. The real guys can actually show you. The way chi works with people starting out in a martial art type of
environment is that someone shows you a technique by doing
the technique on you. That is how you clue into that type
of activity. If you think you can learn martial art from
somebody that doesn't know any martial art; you get what you
pay for.
You have to start out with the physical. You use your body
to teach your awareness. At the higher levels your awareness
teaches your body.
I have been with people when I was training and done internal movements somewhat inadvertently in the coarse
of everyday activities such as working. The results of that
is that the people usually get very upset with you.
Not all fun and games. They think you are really [censored] off
about something or that you are weird.
When someone asks a question and an answer comes forth, that is considered a normal situation. When someone asks a question and an internal movement happens that is a
different type of experience. Something a lot of people are
uncomfortable with. Chi can be used to fight, defend yourself, do anything more effectively, more relaxed, more
efficiently.
question 4; there are two world's that I am aware of, the world of form and the world of non form. The world of form is the everyday world everyone is somewhat familiar with.
The world of non form is exactly as stated: a world where
form is not important.
The theory of Tai Chi states that; Everything comes from something and something comes from nothing. What that is referring to is that; the world of form comes from the world of non form. Can you see this world of non form? Am I full of [censored]? Ask yourself this question.
Do some readup on the origins of martial art and meditation;
What are these people saying?
They are saying a lot of very esoteric, unimaginable stuff.
And they are also saying there is a way to figure this stuff
out. They are not saying they think they have it figured out, they are saying there is a way to figure this stuff out. They are either lying or they are telling the truth.
The spiritual world is a place you bump into, not a place you want to hang around.
The reason you can't see any physical or observable effects
from this energy (which is the wrong type of understanding) is because your awareness does not encompass that level of activity.
People are very, very arrogant.
You think you are aware of everything that is going on around you. I trained in martial arts and meditation for over tens years before I started getting scared. I didn't realize there was anything to be worried about.
If you would like some help, here is my offering to you.
Don't think or worry about chi and all the stuff that goes
with that show. Study movement. The reference point that
works in every situation is movement. All the stuff that I
have experienced that the English language cannot deal with properly can be referenced in the field of movement.
When you meditate you pay attention to movement, even though
you are not physically moving. Chi, the spirit world, magic tricks, not that important. If you want to learn, study the world of movement. The opposite of movement is death.
Good health, good movement. Martial arts techniques and forms are supposed to be very high quality movement. Why did
these guys that put this stuff together consider movement
to be so important. Movement is life.
A thought has no form until you decide to initiate a movement based on that thought. The world of form comes from
the world of non form. Have you ever done anything that did not require an initial movement. Martial arts trains you to look for and study these very small initial movements. If you can see the very beginning of a movement, when the movement is small and has no momentum, you will see that you can easily affect the direction of that movement.
A fight has to start somewhere. A sickness can't come from somewhere without leaving some kind of a trail.
Awareness is movement. Movement is awareness. The good fighters don't worry about affecting your movement, they affect your awareness. When you crash they are long gone.
Movement is the key, everything you can experience as a human being can be referenced in the field of movement.
Drop the labels, forget about the fancy explanations. If
you really want to learn, study movement. Don't ever
think about stillness and non action and such. Non action
is kind of an inside joke in martial arts. You'll get affected, you won't understand how. Movement explains
everything. People require reference points to figure stuff
out. Yin and Yang theory. The mind cannot think about anything without a reference point. Internal movements and chi and energy and all the esoteric stuff can only be referenced properly with movement.
If you ever experience something for which you do not have
a reference point, at least acknowledge that a movement occurred. Movement, awareness. Use your imagination to get started.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 10:39 AM

I like the 'study movement' take. thanks for sharing your thoughts. can I ask how old you are and what art you study?
Posted by: bonjopi

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:07 AM

I studied Hung Gar Kung Fu and Tai Chi and meditation.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:23 AM

thanks. didn't mean to seem rude, but just to get a generational context, how old are you if I may ask?
Posted by: bonjopi

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:34 AM

51
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 12:25 PM

thanks and sorry to press. on topic, do you believe chi-based disciplines either lengthen or improve quality/quantity of lives, that is to say over and above non-chi based exercise, resonable diet and a disimilar spiritual fulfillment?

if no one can claim any imperical advantage, then it becomes a matter of preference, does it not? and therefore personal claims are just that: personal and incomparable.

The underlying theme of threads like this are the believers and followers of a chi-based disciplines attempting to speak from a position of superior method, telling others how much they don't understand and miss out. while it may be true that they/we don't have an immersive understanding of Chinese-based folk beliefs (and there are a great many Chinese who feel you must be Chinese to understand Chi), it is very much arguable that a life of exercise, good diet, emotional intellectual and spiritual fullfillment while having access to western medical care and reasonably violent-free environments - gives every bit as much a shot at a full happy and long life, than what one particular way you believe in offers in claim.

If it comes down to preference, and you currently know no other way than the way you have decided to follow, then why push it as something that is being missed out on? couldn't everyone take that same position with their own path of choice?

The answer is, absolutely yes. I believe pushing a point of view comes from a sense of insecurity - it's a type of 'recruitment' that speaks to the need for people to have others that think the way they do for a type of reassurance. ie. the more people that believe the same thing, the more 'real' the belief becomes. I'm certainly not immune to that as well, nor do I exclude myself from that observation.

something for all of us to be aware of. and something I often forget.

To argue beliefs and choices in path is not the point of threads like this. The arguement here is about what is real and what is not - independant of belief. People's beliefs are real, but do those beliefs kill cancer cells? is the question.

If the answer is no, then it does not negate or minimize that person's beleifs in ki/chi...it simply and unemotionally addressing the question by imperical observation. not to seek the belief is invalid, but to either show or not show the apparent validity of the claim of that belief - while having the common sense to take built-in biases into account as well.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 12:35 PM

can't Spell China without Chi
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 12:48 PM

Yep Ed, your right. Can we move on now???
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 01:03 PM

that depeneds, do we have anything left to say or discuss on chi effects on cancer
Posted by: bonjopi

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 01:16 PM

You should never mess around with a person's belief system.
I don't propose to be the authority on martial arts or anything else here. I'm talking about my experience with martial arts and meditation and Tai Chi. You are right when
you say people with a background in internal styles like to
Lord that over other people. I played the same game with some of my friends.
That is why I shifted my reference point to movement instead
of style.
"People's beliefs are real, but do those beliefs kill cancer cells? is the question."
Everyone that gets cancer, doesn't necessarily die
from cancer. Some people recover, some quite well.
How do they recover, why do they recover. You would have
to ask people that had cancer and recovered from it to get
those answers.
You say people's beliefs are real. That is a really vague
sort of statement. The word real means a lot of different
things to a lot of different people.
I have seen plenty of examples in my life where people
told me my understanding wasn't relevant.
Doesn't mean they are right, doesn't mean they are wrong.
Means they have no need to deal with my understanding.
There are 6 billion people on this planet that don't care
what I think.
If there was a simple and easy answer to your question
someone would have come up with that by now.
I personally believe from my own experience that
chi can cure any ailment and assist with any problem.
Problem is you can't just snap your fingers and
summon up some extra chi for the occasion without
some serious effort somewhere along the road.
Everything you do in your adult life has some element of
choice in there. You live by the choices that you make.
Chi and how that functions is not something that is
easily figured out, is my standpoint. Do you have to
learn internal arts to get somewhere?
There are people I have met that don't know any
martial arts and they manage to get along in the world.
I've seen people with no martial arts training
affect other peoples lives very dramatically, good and bad.
You have to go through the external to get to the internal.
So internal martial styles should encourage people
that there is something beyond the physical if they
ever come to a roadblock because of age or ill health.
The art of martial art says that: "The mind moves the chi
and the chi moves the body:" If you don't believe in
that statement, realize this; The people that came up
with that information are considered to be the source
of modern martial arts.
If the source of martial arts is of no value then you
should consider the possibility that you have
never done or attempted to do any martial arts.
And as far as cancer cells go, you can't kill something
that is already dead.
The mind moves the chi and the chi moves the body.
Mind, chi, body.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 01:55 PM

ah, but you are taking a position of superiority, even if subconsciously.

"The mind moves the chi
and the chi moves the body:"

instead of 'chi' in your sentance, many use the word 'intent'...some use the word 'spirit' or 'soul', etc by utilizing your point in your terms (actually, not your terms, terms from ancient China that have evolved, molded and adapted in meaning since their first use), you are inadvertantly dismissing from your definition all of those who study martial arts in non-chi terms.
you have become so attached to the terminology and ideology of it's framework, that it is unfathomable for you to recognize a viable alternative.

my view is, if you can't demonstrate, illustrate or argue a position outside of personal belief that imperically makes your case of one training framework over another, then there really isn't anything to discuss.

for instance, is there any physical feat that someone having trained in a chi-based discipline is able to do which a non-chi trained person is unable to do?

do an overwhelming majority of chi-disciplined people outlive others or somehow have a better quality of life?

do chi-displined people transcend to a higher consciousness than other spiritual paths?

can chi-disciplines heal the body with a better effectiveness than modern western medicine?


etc...these are the imperical questions. some more difficult than others to 'prove' - the easiest being the medical claims...which are time and time again shown to be within the limits of what is known as placebo. This places it firmly in the realm of faith healing. I've seen people say acupuncture makes them feel better - and I've seen honest people stand up from wheelchairs at church. The mind and intent can do great things, especially clearing the "cant do" psychological blockages we all have. science can't explain the mechanisms of placebo any more than explaining people's belief systems, they can only observe it's success rate and compare it to conventional treatment.

when side by side, what it shows is placebo is placebo. placebo from believing chi can heal you has no better or worse success rate than people who believe in prayer to their god.
Posted by: bonjopi

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 02:07 PM

you are way too talented for me to deal with
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 02:16 PM

well, sorry you feel that way.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 02:49 PM

hey Bonjopi, after reading all that, I forgot the begining and where It was going.
Can I have the short version? or thematic statement
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 08:00 PM

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=13453&ch=biztech

http://www.helium.com/tm/660939/years-magazine-reported-million

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/11/16/cnna.sara.lazar/

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-2191.html

"The research into meditation has also turned up some interesting physical results. Areas of the brain which deal with attention and processing sensory input have been found to actually thicken. Sara Lazar, a psychologist at Harvard Medical School noted, "These increases are proportional to the time a person has been meditating during their lives". She went on to report, "This suggests that the thickness differences are acquired through extensive [meditation] practice and not simply due to differences between meditators and non-meditators."
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 08:51 PM

meditation is definitely a must for reducing all sorts of little cumulative afflictions. of course, meditation doesn't necessarily need to be taught, nor has a pre-requisite in any one belief. Interestingly, the oldest record of meditation practice was from India to simply cultivate insight or Vipassana. not cultivate an energy - that idea was superimposed later when Chinese monks imported the practice.


"The physical act of meditation generally consists of simply sitting quietly, focusing on one's breath, a word or phrase."
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 09:32 PM

Quote:

I believe pushing a point of view comes from a sense of insecurity - it's a type of 'recruitment' that speaks to the need for people to have others that think the way they do for a type of reassurance. ie. the more people that believe the same thing, the more 'real' the belief becomes. I'm certainly not immune to that as well, nor do I exclude myself from that observation.




Ed, I always wondered why you were so animate that chi didn't exist... it doesn't exist because you're afraid that it really does and you haven't connected with it... fair assessment?

Quote:

The argument here is about what is real and what is not - independant of belief. People's beliefs are real, but do those beliefs kill cancer cells? is the question.





Interesting, since you challenge any empirical study data that uses a person with chi training... you can't have it both ways... either they use chi or they don't. Any scientific study has to allow for the existence of the motive force it's studying, if only to disprove it's existance. You cleverly craft the argument that chi doesn't exist because you can't prove it does, and conversely, you can't prove that it doesn't either... but you challenge it only on the basis that someone can't prove it does exist, so it doesn't. You've never considered the idea that science simply might not have advanced to the point to be ABLE to measure chi empirically.

If I remember correctly, flight is a recent "discovery" of man... and it's amazing how far that particular science has developed just in my lifetime... and they are constantly finding animals that are supposed to be extinct in the jungles and ocean... so where's the "empirical data" to support those discoveries... in the discoveries themselves. Perhaps chi is just another of like kind...

There are charlatans in every area of life, and martial arts are rift with them... that doesn't mean that the basis of all of all arts is bogus just because some clown takes some of the training and starts scamming people with it. We see it every week with the "feel good" karate and jujutsu that we see practiced all over the place. It's all about "sweating" and with little or no actual knowledge of technique or power delivery... but you talk to those players, and they all tell you they "take karate". I have other names for it, but I'll pass on those for now...

Good martial arts are almost effortless. They are powerful, and the body dynamics are "correct"... and those are "tools" to develop chi... but they are not "chi" itself. Qigong builds chi, but it is not chi itself. Body structure is a tool of chi... but, again, it's not chi itself... it's not a "static" quantity or element, and while you can paste scientific names on it like "centrifugal force" or centripetal force, or strength... just pick one, it's not just that one element. There are lots of things that go into chi development... just like kata isn't just made up of only one technique... but let's make that analogy...

Say chi is a straight punch... what elements make that up?
Stance? of course... body position? of course... mechanical movement? of course... balance? of course... total body involvement? of course... proper breathing? of course... rotational movement? of course... retraction? of course...
proper fist? of course... proper alignment of the shoulders and arm? of course...

Get the idea? All of those things are pieces of the technique, and all of them contribute to it's functional use... but no one of them is "the" technique itself... and chi is functional in the same manner.

Can cancer cells be affected by chi... I have no doubt they can... but just like the current state of martial arts training, I doubt that there are enough "true masters" of chi or chi projection around to make it a functional method of cancer treatment.

I just spent three years helping my wife endure her cancer until she passed away, and she told me on many occasions that she could "feel my energy". If I had known how to cure her, we'd be having a different conversation... but, of course, being the resident skeptic, you'd have had a reason why it didn't actually happen that way. At some point, you have to believe in something... if not, you believe in nothing. What an empty life that would be...

Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 10:04 PM

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chi
Definition of Chi. Which means breath. Click on noun 2.

In Chinese thought it is when you unite your three treasures(san bao), 1.Chi(breath, vital energy, vitality), 2.Jing(essence, sperm, hormones), 3.Shen(spirit, mind) that your being will be in the best health. By abusing any one of these will lead to a less healthy lifestyle, and will have effects on the other two.

Sorry to hear about your wife wristtwister. Lost two close family members to cancer. Brother in law and my father. My brother in law had the same doctors as Lance Armstrong did for his testicular cancer. I fully support and believe in western science. I don't understand when you believe in some alternative medicine certain people immeditaly assume you cannot believe in western medicine as well.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 10:29 PM

you are obviously emotionally attached to your beliefs and cannot conduct a rational discussion by stepping outside yourself and looking at things the way they are instead of what you feel they are. It's understandable, not many can do it. it takes being comfortable with discoving we are wrong more often than right. If we can't do that, and when that comfort is jostled, the natural reaction is emotion and the feeling to attack it. On a much larger scale, it's fueled many wars in history.


everything you say can easily be turned around into just as valid an opinion.
"I always wondered why you were so animate that chi does exist... it exists because you're afraid that it really doesn't and you have wasted your time pursuing it... fair assessment?"


and....

"At some point, you have to see things for what they are and not what you hope they are... if not, you see nothing. What a blind life that would be..."


so conversations go nowhere - which is what I've been trying to get across, but no one wants to let it go at that. There is no one capable/willing here to present an argument devoid of emotion. wonder why? could it be because it actually is a faith-based system trying to be argued? it certainly follows the same lines as that sort of discussion.

one thing I ask you to consider is what if this thread's study was repeated exactly the same way with exactly the same findings...the only difference was that it was conducted using a priest trained in exorcism instead of a ki-master?

hypothetically, would you change your mind? would you entertain the possiblity that it's something other than the pre-conception of the study that it must be ki? because that is what was not tested. The only subject was a ki-trained person.
If they didn't use the word 'ki' and instead used the word 'faith', you'd see my point of there being no baseline in the test. but you can't see that, because your emotional attachment to the term 'ki' leaves you blind.

nobody here is willing to argue that, so the subject changes to an emotional call of my misunderstanding, lack of faith and emptyness. can't promote the case, so demote the argument. it's a transparent tactic, and you probably don't mean it maliciously, you are just protecting your comfort.


There is the possibility it was love, not ki energy which was felt...not a bad way to go, not bad at all. There is a good kind of 'blindness' - the simplicity of your child's hug or the way the dog looks at you when you come home. The harmful blindness is believing you can overcome boiling water on a bare hand....or that prayer cures cancer.

despite how I come across in arguments while separating emotion, you can trust me when I say separating emotion is a skill, not a lifestyle - so can we please drop the assumptions of what we think we know about each other?


Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 10:58 PM

"so conversations go nowhere - which is what I've been trying to get across, but no one wants to let it go at that"

Including you Ed. Masquerading your sarcasm as debate seems to be a underlying theme in your posts. What you want from here no one can offer you. People have tried to debate you here on this. Only to be told it's not enough. But I do like how you waste so much of your life on something you find silly. But I guess you really think you are giving us some valuable insight on something you know nothing about and try to find the answers on a forum? Give up the charade Ed. We all know you as the biggest chi troll. Again. Why do you care so much about this? Mental masturbation that's all folks.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:12 PM

Quote:

I don't understand when you believe in some alternative medicine certain people immeditaly assume you cannot believe in western medicine as well.



not the point. the point of studies is to isolate the treatment's worth so that doctors/people/patients are informed. This study and ones like it which do not test for alternative causes, fails to do that. It was presuppossed that ki, in exclusion of all else, was the cause of these findings. not test to eliminate the possibility that there was heat transfer or other more conventional explainations. not even a comparrison of someone of another faith or discipline to compare that possibility. No, it was automatically and exclusively put in terms of Ki from the outset. looking further, we find a commercial connection between the author of the paper and subject of the test. the setting for an unbiased study, didn't look promising.
Those points were ignored. instead, at best, what people argued is the belief itself instead of keeping to presenting a case of the study. at worst, are the regression to insults. Had the study been in terms of another energy, such as heat transfer of somebody's hand, this thread wouldn't even exist and no one would be hopeful and defending the power of bodily heat convection.

I would say that a non-ki trained person holding a loved one would transfer alot more than what can be demonstrated by a ki-master touching a petre dish. making the argument, in this case for ki, quite mute.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:21 PM

feel free to not read or contribute if it bothers you. Wouldn't want people getting upset over a silly forum discussion.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:23 PM

Yes Ed. I guess because of this one study, it now cancels out all the research that has been done on chi and is now being done on chi. One study does not disprove anything here. Flawed? YES. Here let me say it again FLAWED? YES. People learn from their flaws and others.

Since you brought it up. Please find me one study where heat from someones finger tips affected cultured cells. I see scientist handling these all the time in studies with their fingers. Is this your "theory" or do you have some evidence of this?
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:26 PM

I looked for it already and found nothing about heat from finger tips affecting cultured cells. But since that is you evidence please prove it.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:29 PM

All in fun Ed.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/18/08 11:31 PM

no. I was just suggesting that it was not eliminated as a possibility in the study.

also, if you read without letting your emotions cloud your judgement, I mentioned a few times that pointing out the flaws in the study does not negate people's beliefs in ki.

as far spending so much time in this thread, check this one out - it's twice as long:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...00#Post15985256

sometimes we entertain imagination, sometimes argument. It's all good, but I notice you are more concerned with defending ki than defending against a zombie armagedon scenario.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 12:10 AM

Quote:

no. I was just suggesting that it was not eliminated as a possibility in the study.




It heat could do it, then I don't see why conventional cancer treatment needed to use radioactive based methods, just a good hot hair-dryer would have surficed.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 12:18 AM

sure. all you have to do is first gather all the cancer cells from within the body and put them in a petre dish.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 12:34 AM

Quote:

sure. all you have to do is first gather all the cancer cells from within the body and put them in a petre dish.




Is that what they do in radiological cancer treatment?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 01:48 AM

I think you mean radiation therapy. radiology is an imaging method. two different things.

but no, since removing the cancer cells would take care of the problem in it's own right. besides, I doubt you'd want to compare who lives longer, a cancer patient who undergoes only ki treatment or one who undergoes only radiation.

it would be the difference of buying them a wig vs. a casket for their next birthday.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 02:15 AM

Folks, we've got a few people who have a genuine interest it this stuff. Have the ability to think freely and actually research topics openly from a scientific perspective and also an eastern. I think we have a golden actually start some meaning conversation here. Ed lacks all of these abilities. I have a solution to that problem. Do the following:

Click on his name to view his profile and then click on the "Ignore User" Option. Works a treat. Ed, honestly you've become that annoying that I have now followed that course of action, so please don't bother replying to this as, well you understand.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 03:56 AM

BTW I typed that extremely early pre-coffee!
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 06:40 AM

It would be rather grim if Ed was chosen herald of the apocalypse, and we all had him on ignore.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 06:48 AM

Quote:

you are obviously emotionally attached to your beliefs and cannot conduct a rational discussion by stepping outside yourself and looking at things the way they are instead of what you feel they are.




Nice try, Ed... the old "create a bias on the debater's part when you have no argument against the information"... not the first time you've tried it, either.

Pathfinder's definition is pretty accurate, about the uniting of the mind, body and spirit, and I've spent 45 years training to do that. I think that trumps your "emotional attachment" argument a bit... and, as usual, you present nothing to defend your case that it's just something of love. Maybe it is... who the hell knows? You certainly can't prove it either way, yourself.

From my notes "on being a black belt"... "the black belt is not only the measure of skills in fighting, but the measure of a person with a large, and forgiving heart. Deadly skills are entrusted to you, and the responsibility to use them correctly, not only for your own self defense, but the good of society. In training others, you must impart that balance between the ability to kill others and to forgive their foolishness and tauntings... for people who do not understand the basis of your arts will have perceptiions that are both foolish and errant.

Love your students and those that you contact during your training... for they are often disparaged from failures, lack of understanding, and inability to do what you do as a teacher. You will meet many people in martial arts... some who are very skilled, some who are not... but at heart, they are still all good people. You will impart much to them, and gain much from them... it is a two way street. Learn from everyone, absorb their energies, and transmit yours to those that prove themselves worthy."

A bit of a far cry from voodoo, wouldn't you say? Yes, I have an emotional attachment to everyone... not just my wife, and her problems... but to everyone I come in contact with. It is often negative... but I push through that to extend myself and hopefully turn that negative energy into something that benefits us both.

You're all about "western medicine", but my experience with it has been more that they are only willing to make you more comfortable dying in their effort to cure cancer. They can tell you what treatments you can have based on when the insurance runs out... and fortunately, ours was limitless... so if Western Medicine was that great, my wife should have lived well beyond what she did. "Statistically" she died a full year before she should have.

You're right about one thing, however... I didn't have the "clinical attitude" we got from the doctors and staff who were protecting themselves from "emotional involvement" in her treatment. Perhaps if they'd had a bit more of it, she might have lived even longer. Who's to say?

Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 09:25 AM

Quote:

It would be rather grim if Ed was chosen herald of the apocalypse, and we all had him on ignore.




If the world was really going to come to an end would you really want to know? I try to live my life on a day to day basis anyhow and try to do everything I need to do and tell the people in my life the things I need to tell them. I'd probably not do that much differently come the apocalypse..besides holding up a big sign saying, "Please take me to your Mother-ship!" and probably cancel the Papers!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 11:54 AM

I notice there are not many who are admitting that this thread's study is flawed.

ok, I'll play the magical thinkers game. could be fun. I'll stop making on-topic comments about the study and just resort to insults.


remember folks, look for the following pattern of magical thinkers: instead of addressing the points made, insult the person making them.

another trait of the magical thinker is the loss of control over emotions and seemingly off the charts estrogen levels.

are any of you guys growing man cans or feeling particularly fickle?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 12:32 PM

Quote:

so if Western Medicine was that great, my wife should have lived well beyond what she did.





Grady, I do again offer my deepest sympathies about your wife. But you cannot blame "western medicine" for being infallible. There has never been a claim that it was. Religious processes do not apply to science. It is very easy to think that if God has all the answers, then science must as well, if science is comparably "legit" (or whatever you want to call it). But science doesn't make claims of infallibility or perfection. Science is a method, meaning that some questions go unanswered, some questions get answered with more questions, and some questions DO finally get a reasonably certain answer.

It is a process, not a solution, even though it works out that way sometimes. Remember that modern, computer-assisted scientific research is still relatively new, and to imply that because all the answers are not known at this time is no reflection on the scientific process.

Insurance companies are a whole other subject.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 05:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It would be rather grim if Ed was chosen herald of the apocalypse, and we all had him on ignore.




If the world was really going to come to an end would you really want to know? I try to live my life on a day to day basis anyhow and try to do everything I need to do and tell the people in my life the things I need to tell them. I'd probably not do that much differently come the apocalypse..besides holding up a big sign saying, "Please take me to your Mother-ship!" and probably cancel the Papers!




I'd stock up on cheetos and buy a lawn chair
sit back and watch the fireworks,
give people water and shelter if they want it, just so long as they don't touch my "going out of business" stock
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 05:30 PM

"ok, I'll play the magical thinkers game. could be fun. I'll stop making on-topic comments about the study and just resort to insults."


Ed I would rather be insulted than be lied to by someone saying they are just "debating" the topic. Ed you insult people all the time on here. When it happens to you boo who who poor Ed. Maybe Ed, rather than giving any scientific reasons for the flawed study you could give your opinion. Oh wait that's all you have done this whole thread is give opinion rather then producing one piece of evidence that the researchers are frauds. You like to argue like someone who is you full of estrogen.
Posted by: harlan

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 05:40 PM

You know...I really don't appreciate the original estrogen comment, or the follow-up. Someone please point to a study that verifies that people with high estrogen levels (and I'm going to assume that probably encompasses all females), are subject to 'magical' thinking. Implying, of course, that females are irrational.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 06:02 PM

He is trying to point out that they didn't do the study properly, alright, good times, let's get on with our lives.

He is asking us to not take this at face value. When we counter-attack, he is defending himself. Is that so wrong?
Who here honestly will step up and say that they are wrong? Who here will, given an argument that turns their entire logical process to wasted time, admit they are inferior?

(personnally, I will. "try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo")

So yeah new point of discussion seeing as we've covered who's doing it, who published it, and a few points of how they were doing it. We've touched on religion, but not many people seemed to like to talk about moral problems or controversy when I brought it up earlier...Most of us have stated what side of the line we are on, and we've had a few history lessons.

If, that if internal force was harvestable, would we be able to use it on other problems? Or can we use it on bacterial diseases? Viral ones? What about other problems like osteoperosis?
Posted by: butterfly

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 06:33 PM

Yeah, sometimes Ed can be an ass, but so can everyone, including myself. And I like him anyway. But regardless, he has valid points about the study. This type of experiment would never work in a rigorous clinical study presented in a premier medical journal for all the reasons mentioned, let alone not having a definition of KI and first even verifying its existence, let alone having a device to measure its strength.

Below is an article, that while not directed at the study in question and decrying homeopathy in particular, does focus on the weakness of much Evidence Based/CAM studies.

Not saying this research isn't valuable, but a bit of disinterest may be valuable to us all.
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:ZVc...cd=13&gl=us
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 07:05 PM

Quote:

you cannot blame "western medicine" for being infallible. There has never been a claim that it was.




Matt, I haven't attempted to say anyone said it was... but by implication, Western Medicine is the only way that works, because it somehow has a magical "scientific" basis... that's a bit suspect too. I spent three years up to my elbows in lab tests, radiation treatments, surgeries... and can probably do more than most nurses in treating open wounds or reading x-rays. I didn't start from zero when my wife was sick, and with limitless insurance, I got the crash course on what's "available" for treatment. My considered opinion is that Western Medicine has no more of a handle on curing cancer than it does on curing anything else... it simply isn't in their interest to do so. My wife's oncologist took pride in telling us that he would "burn up our insurance", but that "he was willing to work with us to make sure she got what she needed". He had no idea how good our insurance was, and "stumbled" a bit when I told him it covered 100 percent of everything... so cost was not a leverage on me.

Quote:

But science doesn't make claims of infallibility or perfection.




Read the statistics... science claims all the time to have "wiped out" particular diseases, etc. only to find out that they didn't "quite" get it done... like tuberculosis, which is making a major comeback. Measles... lots of other vaccines are becoming "less effective", and the diseases are resurging with antibiotic resistances unseen before... to the point of creating new strains of bacteria, like MRSA staph (hope that's the right acronym).

I've worked as an engineer most of my life in chemical plants, medical facilities, and engineering companies... so I'm quite familiar with the "scientific process" of medicine... hell, I built batch plants to manufacture antibiotics.

Quote:

to imply that because all the answers are not known at this time is no reflection on the scientific process.




Good scientists don't discount anything... they simply take notes and watch trends. If a pattern develops, they track it to see where it goes and keep researching with a goal in mind. "Curing cancer" is a relative term... for there are many kinds of cancer, different protocols for treating them, and different medicines which are the current "miracle drugs". Our local hospital system can even brag about developing a vaccine against uterine cancer which is proving very effective in curing uterine cancer. I have no problem with that... but there are other methods for the patients who might not have such a 100 percent cure rate that gives them a better quality of what life they have left... and I have my own ideas about some of those.

I appreciate everyone's sympathy for the loss of my wife, but nothing will ever replace her, or make me think that the medical community didn't just view her as another statistic to be plugged into their "numbers". The attitudes, processes, protocols, etc. were all geared to "delaying death", not curing her... and no one can ever know the heartbreak of sitting there while a doctor tells your "better half" that she has 18 months to live... his words were "that's the book on your particular type of cancer"...

All that sympathy was so deep that no one concerned with her treatment either attended her memorial service or has had any contact with us since she died. They had her hoodwinked into really believing how "commited" they were to her cure, but some people have the sense to scrape that off when they step in it. They were running a game, and it's all about the money. Patients are merely "fresh meat" for the insurance.

As far as "cancer research" is concerned, I think rubbing shoe polish on your boo-boo is about as effective as most of today's "herculean efforts in cancer research"... just send money... I would have had much more respect for the medical community if I hadn't been so closely associated with her care... for being there all the time let me see everything that went on... not just the summaries.

Ed equates "alternative methods" as "magical thinking", but having been there from day one through the three years it took my wife to die, the only "magic" involved seems to be the medical community's ability to make money disappear. I'm sure if they could have kept her alive for 10 more "procedures" they would have... because they each cost thousands... so they can't even help when it's in their own best interest.

We spend endless hours railing on the "McDojo" scams, and then bow politely to the holy grail of "medicine"... so long as it's Western, and so long as it's "scientific"...
When it comes to who's the "true believers" as Ed likes to call them... who are you guys kidding?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 07:22 PM

sorry harlan. The joke, while distasteful, was from a couple angles: it's well know that there is 'estrogen therapy' for treating cancer, which also happens to be similar/related to sex-change procedure. see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormonal_therapy_%28oncology%29
chi-based theology and disciplines have been accused of being male-centric and outright sexist. see the first article in the latest issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts which was referenced earlier. now add to that the stereotype of estrogen levels and mood swings - and you get the tasteless comical image I was trying to communicate with - thinking if they can't understand reason, maybe schoolyard humor might find a voice. by the way, where was the outrage when I was staying on topic while others were flinging poo?

Brad, yep I'm an ass...that doesn't change the fact that the study is flawed. I liked the reference you gave - I learned new terminology: "woo-based therapies" funny.
Posted by: harlan

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 07:43 PM

No problems, Ed. (guess nobody saw the *wink*??)

Part of my estrogen related irrational thinking is that I can't follow long threads. I'll let you guys play chi-ball...I've got to look into renting space for an upcoming seminar for Sifu Liu Chang. That whole 'one-inch' punch thing.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 07:43 PM

put it this way - if there is someday going to be a cure for cancer - it likely ain't coming from a ki-master, witch doctor, faith healer, shamen, prayer, obeah doctor, woo-based therapist or meditator.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 08:05 PM

Quote:

If, that if internal force was harvestable, would we be able to use it on other problems? Or can we use it on bacterial diseases? Viral ones? What about other problems like osteoperosis?



why stop there? I think the chi elixer can be harvested for imortality.

Quote:

In ancient China, Emperor Ching Shi
Hwang-Di spent his life hoping to avoid death. He commissioned doctors to concoct
potions and sent ships out to sea in search of islands where immortals supposedly lived.
Fearful that his efforts might ultimately fail, he enlisted more than a half-million
conscripts to build a magnificent underground tomb, surrounded by over seventhousand
life-size terracotta soldiers in military formation. Upon the emperor's death,
living servants were also buried with him.
http://www.flightfromdeath.com/media/ffd_transcript_sample.pdf





I've always wondered why he didn't just seek out the best chi-healer ?
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 08:43 PM

you'll notice that all the chi healers are dead

Cept of course Zhang sanfeng. I was playing ultimate frizbee with him the other day

Ed's last argument
long ways to go yet, Who knows, you might be right XD
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 09:07 PM

Ed, you have a great propensity to mischaracterize everything. Nobody is claiming that chi is a cure for cancer, but like most other arguments you make about chi or your lack therof, you bait the arguments with a flavor of outright lying about what others have said. The study link I posted was about a study that stated that a medical study was being done about the effects of chi on cancer cells... period. Nobody claimed that they had "the cure"... nobody claimed anything except that it was being studied. YOU are the one who keeps claiming that somebody else said all those things and then start lambasting us with your usual "magical thinking", witch doctor tripe.

Do I believe that chi cures cancer... I don't know... and neither do you. Do I have confidence that "the cure" will come from Western Medicine?... not so much as you... and I've been exposed to "Western Medicine's" cancer treatments... and I wasn't impressed. I feel that its more of a money game than a "cure".

I don't see anything coming out about the cure for cancer that isn't "praise based" on the Cancer Societies' moneymaking drives. Like any good scam, they're always "just inches away from a cure"... and I've been hearing that for nearly 50 years...

Like "sentinel node" treatment, it's a lab experiment that hasn't "quite reached clinical use" yet. When my wife was sick, I researched everything that was a possible cure for her type of breast cancer. The most promising information was on "sentinel node" procedures, which could track cancer down and kill it at the cellular level... it was a matter of filtering the blood of a cancer patient, and zapping the t-cells with a laser... A great experiment, but of no practical use... but it was touted as the "new research finding" of the cancer researchers... so while they have lots of "experiments", they have few results... only propaganda telling us what a great job they're doing.

What they need to do is actually cure something... then, I'll be impressed. Til then, chi's as good as as a good scam job...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 09:29 PM

you need help with English sometimes. read again:
Quote:

if there is someday going to be a cure for cancer - it likely ain't coming from a ki-master, witch doctor, faith healer, shamen, prayer, obeah doctor, woo-based therapist or meditator.




keywords: IF, SOMEDAY, LIKELY

where did I say it was claimed that chi is a cure for cancer? I believe you were the one who suggested it. and quite clearly:
Quote:

Can cancer cells be affected by chi... I have no doubt they can... but just like the current state of martial arts training, I doubt that there are enough "true masters" of chi or chi projection around to make it a functional method of cancer treatment.




so in other words, 'true masters' of chi can cure cancer, but there aren't enough to lay hands on to all cancer patients each year? thats what the implication of your statement is, right? the way you worded it was in terms of there not being 'enough' true chi masters. so given one true chi master and one patient, then that one person's cancer can be cured?

maybe not what you meant, but your wording is suggesting such.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 09:41 PM

just this statement shows what we are dealing with here:
Quote:

Can cancer cells be affected by chi... I have no doubt they can




if a person has 'no doubt' then that means they base that on evidence. if there is no evidence, then it falls firmly in the realm of belief.

well, this thread's study is the only known study I know of that even conducted such a test. and the study is cut to ribbons in flaw. so in effect, you are saying despite evidence to the contrary you still have 'no doubt'. That indicates to me, our argument is flawed since you are defending a personal belief and I'm pointing out apparent fact.

so this argument is dead, really.
Posted by: oldman

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/19/08 10:34 PM

Quote:

so this argument is dead, really.





I have "no doubt" it will be resurrected.
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 12:00 AM

Thanks for all the replies.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 12:19 AM

and remember: This thread and beliefs therein do not substitute for medical care. Please consult your MD.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 01:44 AM

Ed,

I think it comes down to "I'm better than you". "I know more,am more experienced, better qualified.." etc...

If you don't know enough about ki, then you are obviously an amateur. Stick to kicking and punching, then maybe in 10 yrs you will be ready to learn,lol.

It's all theory until someone can prove it. It's up to the individual to buy into it or not. I'm not buying into it myself.

I believe in alot of things that I cannot see or prove,but ki is not one of them.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 03:52 AM

Please do not take this as another mock, but when are you planning to play tennis with Onishi? (not sure about the spelling)

I think it's really worth the effort inspite of what you consider flaws in his experiments. Reading a book or watching a movie and meeting the author or actor in person can be very different, as it can go either way.

Ed, there is something in this chi thing (the problem is not chi/ki itself, but like most things coming out of the "mystic" east biased perceptions of it, mostly from people who have not actually done any training to acquire awareness and control of it) I am not referring to anyone in particular, as even an opinion from a serious trainee on this subject is only as good as the level of competency achieved at the time the opinion is expressed.

Winning or losing an argument (or showing that an experiment is flawed in one aspect of it) has, in the final analysis, no bearing on chi/ki's existence or otherwise. It exist or not exist all on it's own. And of course we have problems with words here. If the chinese had from the very beginning started calling it "bio-electromagnetic radiation" then it would be seen in a different light (pun not intended)

Onishi's ready acceptance of non-adherence to a strict application of a standard baseline (which by itself may not be fatal to the general conclusions drawn from the experiment, only that you opined a possibility) is positive testimony of academic integrity. I don't believe he is a witch-doctor, magician, voodoo faith healer, pimple-faced cyber-warrior, etc. He may actually turned out to be a serious scientist who happens to have an interest and training in Ki development, which is good actually as these people are quite rare in academic/research circles, and should not be summarily held against him.

He should be given the benefit of the doubt and the fact that he pushed the "ki-is-good-for-your-health" line should not detract us too much from the general experimental conclusions drawn or the man. As I said right from the beginning, these are just baby steps, much like in the early 1900s when theories of quantum physics rattled the Einstienian establishment.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 05:59 AM

dude, you're a day late an a buck short...we stopped arguing
......for now
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 06:39 AM

Quote:

if a person has 'no doubt' then that means they base that on evidence. if there is no evidence, then it falls firmly in the realm of belief.




It's interesting that you always discount anything that offers proof, such as the study cited and return to your "beliefs" argument. I said I believed that cancer cells were affected by chi... not that it cured it or any other claim... incidently, that's the finding of the study cited.

Quote:

this thread's study is the only known study I know of that even conducted such a test. and the study is cut to ribbons in flaw.




Again, you make assumptions that have no basis in fact... Oh, I get it... only studies YOU find "worthy" are believeable... I get it. We'll send anything being examined or discussed through you to find out if its findings "meet with your approval" before showing it here.

Quote:

That indicates to me, our argument is flawed since you are defending a personal belief and I'm pointing out apparent fact.




Okay... where's the study that shows that? You need to meet the same criteria that you make everybody else live up to, so where's the study showing that chi DOESN'T affect cancer cells?

I hit my head on a board about two weeks ago and have a gash on top of my skull... and anyone can understand that a severe blow to the head can kill you... so why ain't I dead?
Oh... you mean there are "degrees" of something being affected... silly me... I was taking the approach that I had outlived science since everything with you is 100 percent or nothing... I never realized that something could be affected without actually being "cured"...

You're right about one thing, Ed... the argument is dead... but you have a way about you that gets so tiresome that nobody wants to continue discussing things with you.

Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 06:51 AM

WT hit the ignore button man, it's a wonderful invention! Saves you wasting you're Chi!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 07:34 AM

I mean the arguement is dead because it's obviously an emotional topic for you and others here. I'm not a therapist and didn't participate in this thread to provide therapy, just debate.

Gavin's advice is the best for you...and too bad you couldn't put whole threads on ignore.

BP comments are neither here nor there and not worth addressing. you don't need to be buddies and get to know the person making a privatly-funded study public in order to debate it's method/findings. The guy might also be a war hero, respected church leader or a person on Prozac ...does that change whats in the study or his obvious connection to promotion of a product?

I just read a study that shows spending time with a pet for 10 minutes a day reduces stress with a success rate that comparitively blows accupuncture out of the water. oh and spending time with a pet is about $150 per hour less expensive.

I'd recommend to the people here to get a pet. better therepy for you than participating in these threads, thats for sure. forget the ignore button - unplug your computer and a take a walk with your dog. That way too, I wouldn't have to keep receiving e-mails from people here appologizing to me and explaining their physical/mental problems. I'm not a therapist.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 12:08 PM

Well, Ed, I'm glad you're not a therapist... you'd starve.

Just as a footnote, there was a trailer on the news this morning that the American Cancer Center reported that cancer deaths went up by 5,000 in 2005... not down as had been the trend. Sounds like you need to get back to the lab...

Posted by: MattJ

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 12:47 PM

Not quite accurate, Grady. Some cancer rates are up, while others are declining:

http://progressreport.cancer.gov/highlights.asp
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 01:48 PM

also, how many of those thousands were for reasons of discontinued health care coverage? A problem separate from science, and more to do with political leadership (or lack thereof).

The recent university shooting was from a student off his meds after his coverage expired. so from that, will you say that science makes people go on shooting sprees? because thats sortof the level of logic you are using.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 01:58 PM

Quote:

also, how many of those thousands were for reasons of discontinued health care coverage? A problem separate from science, and more to do with political leadership (or lack thereof).




Exactly, Ed. Same point I made earlier about insurance companies. Nothing to do with the science.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/20/08 09:16 PM

I take no responsibility for what runs on the news...

Quote:

there was a trailer on the news this morning that the American Cancer Center reported that cancer deaths went up by 5,000 in 2005... not down as had been the trend.




I was merely stating what ran on the news trailer...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/21/08 12:09 AM

Quote:

I was merely stating what ran on the news trailer...





sure you were. thats why you added this:
Quote:

Sounds like you need to get back to the lab...



Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/21/08 03:32 AM

Quote:

BP comments are neither here nor there and not worth addressing. you don't need to be buddies and get to know the person making a privatly-funded study public in order to debate it's method/findings. The guy might also be a war hero, respected church leader or a person on Prozac ...does that change whats in the study or his obvious connection to promotion of a product?




Well, you did say sometime back that you would and will meet up with him, as he claimed to be able to extend his Ki far enough to affect a person at a distance. I was thinking maybe you could meet him and debunk him once and for all, that way this "emotional" Thread can have some measure of "closure"?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/21/08 08:59 AM

thats correct, but unfortunately after he was made aware of this thread, he has not returned messages or communicated further.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/26/08 03:42 AM

This see how this one gets twisted to suit everyone's agenda! Have fun:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7263494.stm
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/26/08 07:24 AM

maybe that would be a new thread in the general section, since your link has nothing to do with ki, cancer or martial arts? or even better, make a new thread about placebo itself.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/26/08 09:58 AM

btw, here's the study you refer to: http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlser...050045&ct=1
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/29/08 04:34 PM

For everybody here,
If you had the slightest shred of a chance to help Jonnyboxcutter, regardless of what the masses told you, wouldn't you do everything you could to give him his life back? If someone said, "Hey, I have an Idea, It might help your friend!" would you simply tear it apart and try to prove it wrong, Or, if you could, while he wasn't being treated with regular medicine, would you allow him to be subject to this?
It's a question of ponderance, in case you are wondering, just another thing for you to take as fresh meat.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 02/29/08 05:01 PM

an attempted low blow. The argument of the study referenced in the opening post has nothing to do with emotions.

not everyone is willing to involk their dying friends/family names in order to make a case. can't do it logically, so play the emotion card?

thats a low functioning argument.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 03/04/08 03:18 PM

I apoligize.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study - 03/13/08 12:10 AM

scientists may have found a real 'Master' that does affect cancer cells:

"Kohwi-Shigematsu's research is part of a new wave of cancer studies focusing on the genetic origins of the disease."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080312/ts_afp/healthdiseasecancerbiotechdrugs_080312181303
Quote:


PARIS (AFP) - Geneticists have identified a super gene which causes breast cancer to metastasise, the deadly process by which the disease spreads to other organs, according to a study released Wednesday.

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Described by the US researchers as a "master regulator," the SATB1 gene alters the behaviour of at least 1,000 other genes within tumour cells, said the study, published in the British journal Nature.

When over-activated it makes cancer cells proliferate, and when neutralised the gene stops the cells from dividing and migrating, the study reported.
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"SATB1 will be a remarkable target for cancer therapy," lead scientist Termumi Kohwi-Shigematsu of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, California, told AFP.
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The findings could not only pave the way to diagnostic tools that show the likelihood of the disease spreading, she said, but to drugs that could prevent or treat metastasis in breast cancer as well.
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Up to now, it was impossible to predict whether cancer cells in a tumour were destined to invade neighboring tissue, travel through the blood system and form secondary tumours elsewhere in the body.
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But the SATB1 protein is just such a marker. A tumour in which it is activated "is destined to metastasise," said Kohwi-Shigematsu.
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Metastasis is the overwhelming cause of death in patients with solid tumours. Less than 10 percent of women with metastatic breast cancer survive beyond a decade, and just over a quarter make it past five years.
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SATB1's normal role in organising other genes -- especially related to T-cells that play a critical role in the immune system -- was already well known, thanks in part to pioneering research by Kohwi-Shigematsu in the 1990s.
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The gene had also been identified in breast tumours.
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But the new study is the first to establish that "SATB1 is both necessary and sufficient for breast cancer cells to become metastatic," she said.
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In experiments on mice, Kohwi-Shigematsu and colleagues "knocked down", or deactivated, the SATB1 gene by removing certain RNAs in the tumour cells upon which the gene depends for multiplying.
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Messenger RNAs are tiny strings of nucleotides -- the basic building blocks of DNA -- that ferry the blueprints for constructing proteins from DNA genes to the cell's ribosomes, the factories where proteins are made.
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The results, compared to control mice also infected with human metastatic breast cancer cells, were dramatic.
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Between 125 and 160 metastatic nodules formed in each lung of all the control mice. But in the rodents in which SATB1 was suppressed, the number was between zero and five.
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Deliberately over-expressing the gene had the opposite effect, causing the cancer cells to rapidly reproduce and run amok.
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Translating the study's findings into an effective treatment for cancer would require targeting only the tumours in which the SATB1 gene has become overly active.
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A drug that blocked the gene throughout the body would compromise its critical -- and normal -- role in activating the immune system.
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Kohwi-Shigematsu is working on a means for delivering an inhibitor via microscopic nanocapsules, and said trials on humans could start within a couple of years. Prognostic tools could be available within a year.
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Kohwi-Shigematsu's research is part of a new wave of cancer studies focusing on the genetic origins of the disease.
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Scientists have come to realise, she said, that there are gene expression patterns called prognosis signatures, genetic profiles found across primary tumours that have metastatic potential.
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"And now we have identified the protein master regulator for metastatis," she said.
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But the most basic question remains to be answered, she added. "What turns SATB1 on during the course of breast cancer progression? We just don't know."
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According to the American Cancer Society, about 1.3 million women worldwide are diagnosed each year with breast cancer, and nearly half-a-million succumb to the disease.





Looks like promising research. seems being honest with what they don't know leads to the pursuit of finding out.