Chi:Shoes & Metal parts

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 02:27 PM

Hello Steve:

"Agonist" vs. Antagonist musculature understood.... contraction is mandatory humans can never have "full-relaxation" or as bipeds we would fall down. (I like the boiled noodle image for its obvious over softness) As for elasticated, spirilling we speak in essentially similar terms... though I'd love to inquire further in some respects another time.

When you spoke of generating chi (in spite of your recent plural knee replacements) as you understand your art (the concept of chi inherent to it) ~foreign bodies~ whether good (eg artificial vertabrae, knees, hips, bone etc.) or bad (ie bullets, arrows, shrapnel, etc.) do nothing to inhibit either the strength or flow of those energies?

Apologies for being repetitive, I am yet unclear... forgive me.

Jeff

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 02:53 PM

Quote:

There's a trick to it, but it's not ki magic - it's physics 101. Plain and simple.

Sooooooo........how do you do the trick? What you are describing is impossible.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 03:07 PM

Quote:

Hello Steve:

"Agonist" vs. Antagonist musculature understood.... contraction is mandatory humans can never have "full-relaxation" or as bipeds we would fall down. (I like the boiled noodle image for its obvious over softness) As for elasticated, spirilling we speak in essentially similar terms... though I'd love to inquire further in some respects another time.

When you spoke of generating chi (in spite of your recent plural knee replacements) as you understand your art (the concept of chi inherent to it) ~foreign bodies~ whether good (eg artificial vertabrae, knees, hips, bone etc.) or bad (ie bullets, arrows, shrapnel, etc.) do nothing to inhibit either the strength or flow of those energies?

Apologies for being repetitive, I am yet unclear... forgive me.

Jeff

No problem Jeff.

I have found absolutely no problem in the generation or flow of energy through shoes or the titanium and polythene that makes up my artificial knees.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 07:33 PM

Quote:

Sooooooo........how do you do the trick? What you are describing is impossible.

Hard to do, but not impossible. The concept itself is very simple. Think Newton's 3rd law... every action has an equal and OPPOSITE reaction.

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 08:40 PM

Quote:

Hard to do, but not impossible. The concept itself is very simple. Think Newton's 3rd law... every action has an equal and OPPOSITE reaction.

OK, I'll try again. What exactly are you moving to make the oopponent "bounce off" if it's not your arms, legs, waist, etc. Must be something, right? You said "physics 101".

So what is it?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 10:32 PM

Not moving anything Matt.... it's a simple body trick using Newton's 3 Laws... You're smart... you'll work it out.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 11:54 PM

Quote:

Here's what I mean... stand in a relaxed stance, shoulder width apart. Extend your left arm out and have a partner push on it gently, but with consistent pressure. Without moving your feet, or arm or turning the waist or transferring your weight... see if you can bounce them off your arm.

There's a trick to it, but it's not ki magic - it's physics 101. Plain and simple.

Hi
In physics terms
For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force.
The problem with that is in this scenario there has to be resistance.
A fish will swim because its actions are pushing on water

So back to the task set.
Has this something to do with the term rooting to the earth via the feet?
As in the energy from the push (as might be said) absorbed and bounced? back via dynamic/isometric tension in the legs ? (and seemingly the extended arm)

This is pure observation based.
I read of the mystical part of some arts.
I then read of and observe the exercises practiced by some practioners to achieve what some people might term as mystical.
One legged squats
One finger pressups
Some form of intense weight/ against resistance training
etc etc.

Jude

Jude

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/02/07 11:56 PM

Hello Steve:
Appreciate your (obvious) patience. I thank you sincerely,

Jeff

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 12:01 AM

you didn't mention from which direction someone is pushing on your extended arm. side, up, down or straight-on?

however, demo tricks are fun, but not important. don't fall into it Matt. Like a magician being persuaded to reveiling his tricks, the conversation goes nowhere.

The thing that really interests me, and one of the things I've been focusing on for the past year training, is basically this...

not so off-the-wall hypothetical:
you are in clinch/grappling range and you have a split second opening to the head area - your hands are tied up, but you have just a bit of elbow/forearm play. right from the awkward position you happen to be in, you deliver a very short-distance jolt that connects to target. usually, this would be just brushed off as a low-power glancing slap. but there is a way to train to make the jolting strike enough to do damage or at least cause a reaction which opens something else up....which you exploit right away.

The closest concept is what the Chinese call 'fajing'...but it does not need to be in those terms in order to train for it or understand it.

it's a physical skill that is specifically trained for towards efficiency. period.

you don't need to know IMA concepts, you don't need to meditate, and it works even with either non-conductive rubber soles on or space-walk gravity boots. lol

Matt, the only reason people of IMA-based arts will always speak as if you don't get it, regardless of whether they have seen you train in person or not, is because of art snobery.
I bet if a mediocre-skilled stranger came on and spoke in likable terms, the IMA-ists would pat him on the back and say he's one that understands. yet, have someone show up in the conversation who actually does have good skill, who speaks in dislikable terms and suddenly they don't get it.

see, IMA is a 'club' as much as a conceptual training method. it doesn't matter how well you can 'do'....it matters how well you play ball.

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 12:09 AM

Hello Ed:

I have an idea (half baked perhaps) how to offer a glimpse of context for such actions, activities of which you mention a few. A hypothesis on my part, pure conjecture I grant you. But maybe, just maybe it might bring us back to the intent of my original question...

Chi with/within original context. Hopefully, however the hour is late so tomorrow it shall have to be... be well and thank you for contributing, engaging in an... ~uncomfortable~ topic for many, myself definately included.

Until tomorrow, be well...
Jeff

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 12:27 AM

Quote:

you didn't mention from which direction someone is pushing on your extended arm. side, up, down or straight-on?

Doesn't matter. If you know how it works, you'll know why it doesn't matter. Since you OBVIOUSLY don't know... my engineering-minded friend, I would suggest you go back to basic physics and force vectors...

Quote:

however, demo tricks are fun, but not important. don't fall into it Matt.

Like so many, you want to run before you can crawl...

If you can't do this simple body trick under static load, or you don't even understand how it works, how can you hope to apply it dynamically in any given situation? It all starts (and ends) with THE basics. Dynamic application is based on the same principles as static practice. Why wouldn't it?

Quote:

The closest concept is what the Chinese call 'fajing'...but it does not need to be in those terms in order to train for it or understand it.

Yeah, you obviously don't even know what this means either...

Quote:

it's a physical skill that is specifically trained for towards efficiency. period.

That much is obvious. But like Gavin said, it's unlearning all those BAD habits (using force, tension etc.) and re-wiring your body to move differently. Gav knows precisely what I'm talking about.

Quote:

you don't need to know IMA concepts, you don't need to meditate, and it works even with either non-conductive rubber soles on or space-walk gravity boots. lol

Yeah... whateva... :rolleyes:

Quote:

see, IMA is a 'club' as much as a conceptual training method. it doesn't matter how well you can 'do'....it matters how well you play ball.

If you understood, you'd be in the "in-club" too.

BTW, jude nearly got it...

The ground exerts a reaction force (ki of the earth) thru your skeletal structure does it not? So how would you absorb the force to the ground and use that idea? For the "bounce" - think Newton's 2nd law....

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 12:40 AM

that arm trick has as much to do with Martial Arts as David Blane levitating.

"it's all physics" - it sure is.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 12:47 AM

Quote:

BTW, jude nearly got it...
The ground exerts a reaction force (ki of the earth) thru your skeletal structure does it not? So how would you absorb the force to the ground and use that idea? For the "bounce" - think Newton's 2nd law....

Spring Force

Ermm isnt it the 3rd law?
for every external force that acts on an object there is a force of equal magnitude but opposite direction which acts back on the object which exerted that external force,
If this law is being applied there is also the additional energy from the muscle contraction/absorbtion/defelection of energy from the muscles of the person being pushed in question.

Jude

Chi = a term for energy.

Jude

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 01:20 AM

Getting there... think in terms of vector forces rather than "energy".

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 06:27 AM

Quote:

you didn't mention from which direction someone is pushing on your extended arm. side, up, down or straight-on?

however, demo tricks are fun, but not important. don't fall into it Matt. Like a magician being persuaded to reveiling his tricks, the conversation goes nowhere.

The thing that really interests me, and one of the things I've been focusing on for the past year training, is basically this...

not so off-the-wall hypothetical:
you are in clinch/grappling range and you have a split second opening to the head area - your hands are tied up, but you have just a bit of elbow/forearm play. right from the awkward position you happen to be in, you deliver a very short-distance jolt that connects to target. usually, this would be just brushed off as a low-power glancing slap. but there is a way to train to make the jolting strike enough to do damage or at least cause a reaction which opens something else up....which you exploit right away.

The closest concept is what the Chinese call 'fajing'...but it does not need to be in those terms in order to train for it or understand it.

it's a physical skill that is specifically trained for towards efficiency. period.

you don't need to know IMA concepts, you don't need to meditate, and it works even with either non-conductive rubber soles on or space-walk gravity boots. lol

Matt, the only reason people of IMA-based arts will always speak as if you don't get it, regardless of whether they have seen you train in person or not, is because of art snobery.
I bet if a mediocre-skilled stranger came on and spoke in likable terms, the IMA-ists would pat him on the back and say he's one that understands. yet, have someone show up in the conversation who actually does have good skill, who speaks in dislikable terms and suddenly they don't get it.

see, IMA is a 'club' as much as a conceptual training method. it doesn't matter how well you can 'do'....it matters how well you play ball.

Probably difficult to describe on a forum Ed - but I'll try to help.

Presumably your feet will be in a slightly 'rotated' position (like sanchin) this will give them a spiraling action to the floor and up through the body. your posture will be aligned with the chin in and the back of the neck lightly stretched. The chest will be 'sunk' (by releasing all excessive tension) helping the open the back with the shoulder blades apart and pulled down. The ribcage will be rolled down quite intensely with the lats sliding forward and the lower abdomen will be pulled in and up very intensely (like trying to zip up a tight pair of jeans) until you feel the chest and lower abdomen 'connect' internally. Your bodyweight will be held in the muscles and not the joints (by softening down into the legs until you feel it in the thigh muscles, bypassing the knees and down into the arches of the feet).

You then pulse in a spiraling action from rear to front foot this energy comes up through the body to the waist, release the 'connection' from chest to waist and you feel this like an explosion going off in the body - you 'figure 8' the waist to power the strike to the elbow, at the point of contact you also employ the hips in a vibrating' action to give the 'dig' to the strike.

Remember to not lose any of the alignments or connections throughout the movement.

Obviously this takes practice and we use a host of specialist exercises for each part of this chain, but you wanted a normal practical explanation and that's the best I can do.

Gavins been on the receiving end of a few so he can discuss how it feels.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 08:20 AM

Quote:

Getting there... think in terms of vector forces rather than "energy".

HI
Been to work.
Just trained.
My mind has gone into fog mode!! It isnt absorbing to many intellectual things at this precise moment.
Would be easier if you explained it!!

Hi Bossman.

The body position your refering to. I imagine it would take some time to perfect. Where would this appear? In a form of some description?

Jude

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 08:27 AM

good description. sounds like what's going on in full-speed 'kung li' exercises.
I'll add a couple things, and you can tell me if it relates to your understanding as well.
when stuff like this is described, it has to be imagined as exagurated and in slow motion, but then just felt full speed with minimal movement.
the tight 'figure-8' of the waist is only one of the dimensions where the power comes from. your spine also acts as a bow being released, and an almost imperceptable 'ripple' from the floor to the strike, simulataneously powers as a whip, while also powering the draw of the bowed spine.
so you've got a bit of counter-touque, elastic and whipping power all working together....and everything stays 'relaxed' until the point of impact. the feeling of doing it full-speed feels like a structured/controlled twitch.

and yes, there are exercises to isolate somewhat several of it's 'components'.

the impact to a bag doesn't look like much, and shouldn't be a push but a jolt, so when people say things go flying backward from their chi/ki, I'm skeptical that it's the same mechanics going on.

also, one curious thing I noticed. when you do this while not hitting anything, it makes the floor vibrate a little....but when you connect to something heavy, like a bag, there is little to no vibration in the floor. I'm guessing thats due to transfer? I would think that would be opposite though...

anyway, sound similar to what you are doing?

as an aside to our Goju folk, when combined with full-speed Tensho techniques/principles, it gives one of those real and rare, 'ah-ha' moments.

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 08:49 AM

Quote by Bossman -

Quote:

You then pulse in a spiraling action from rear to front foot this energy comes up through the body to the waist, release the 'connection' from chest to waist and you feel this like an explosion going off in the body - you 'figure 8' the waist to power the strike to the elbow, at the point of contact you also employ the hips in a vibrating' action to give the 'dig' to the strike.

Ah. So there is some hip movement. Thanks for the description Bossman. Unsure if Eyrie didn't want or didn't know how to explain it, but I think I understand the concept now.

Cheers!

Posted by: harlan

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 10:56 AM

This kata came up over at your forum. I'm curious, since I don't know this kata (not sure if it's part of our curriculum or not)...can you point to a good online version that illustrates your point?

Quote:

The sequences...in karate you'd find it in Naihanchi.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 12:40 PM

Just been through the extensive youtube list and I'm afraid I can't...

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 04:57 PM

Quote:

Hi Bossman.

The body position your refering to. I imagine it would take some time to perfect. Where would this appear? In a form of some description?

Jude

Hi Jude

The sequences would be found in the Yang tai chi form and in karate you'd find it in Naihanchi.

Hi Bossman.
Naihanchi?
Nice!
This might be one of those further discussion points.

Jude

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 05:26 PM

Quote:

Getting there... think in terms of vector forces rather than "energy".

Judes best guess? After the fog had cleared.

Ermmm. Vector means maybe in this case energy changing direction?

Pushing against an arm? = as in pushing hands maybe?

Neutralise an incoming force (push)

In tai chi terms

By redirecting (thus the term vector) it into the ground(Earth)

Done by the correct body alignment( as explained by Bossman?)

and relaxation of the body( the person who is being pushed)

so there is no firm resistance against the force(push) on its way to the floor(Earth?)

The legs acts as springs( thus the use of one legged squats and other resistance exercises done by IMA's and others)

Spring energy is the name of the energy returned to the pusher.

The term root is said to be the contact between the person and the ground.(Earth)

Personaly I guess it has to do with the amount of strength and correct use of the legs/body muscles as to the amount of power obtained??

Jude

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 07:54 PM

Quote:

Ah. So there is some hip movement. Thanks for the description Bossman. Unsure if Eyrie didn't want or didn't know how to explain it, but I think I understand the concept now.

The problem is there are so many ways to do it. Steve's description is one way. I was giving Ed a really basic way with "no" movement whatsoever. Why complicate things?

You can put the hip behind the bounce/strike, or put your dantien in your hands. Either way there is obviously going to be *some* movement. Ever tried standing still? There is still *some* movement right? Your body's balance mechanism is constantly self-adjusting.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/03/07 09:18 PM

Back to the topic, the issue is going to be how "purely" you can feel the ground... so the type of shoes, metal bits etc. is going to affect different people differently.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 04:05 AM

Hi

So was I close?

Jude

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 05:15 AM

Close... real close...

> Vector means maybe in this case energy changing direction?

Vector as in directional force vectors. Energy is too vague. And I think is a different formula in physics terms.

> Pushing against an arm? = as in pushing hands maybe?

Think "peng".

> Neutralise an incoming force (push)

This is where sensitivity (listening jin) is important.

> By redirecting (thus the term vector) it into the ground(Earth)

Oooh....

Now how to bounce it back...?

> Done by the correct body alignment( as explained by Bossman?) and relaxation of the body( the person who is being pushed)

These go hand-in-hand...

> so there is no firm resistance against the force(push) on its way to the floor(Earth?)

Tension... not resistance... when you tense your shoulders (to resist), you get pushed over. If you are too floppy, you collapse and then get pushed over. Tension is somewhere in between loose and tensed. (See previous point re: body alignment and being "relaxed").

> The legs acts as springs( thus the use of one legged squats and other resistance exercises done by IMA's and others)

Leg strength is important, very important. Get off the computer and sit in mabu.

> The term root is said to be the contact between the person and the ground.(Earth)

Yes, you need a good root...

> Personaly I guess it has to do with the amount of strength and correct use of the legs/body muscles as to the amount of power obtained??

It depends on WHERE the power is sourced from that makes it "internal" or "external". Large muscle groups is external... true internal is sourced from the feet and dantien. And then you have varying degrees of everything in between.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 05:25 AM

Hi

Ok will look/research further. Thanks.

Jude

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 05:30 AM

Quote:

Just been through the extensive youtube list and I'm afraid I can't...

There is a video of some karate ka on okinawa doing the kata as a conditioning /testing kata? I shall try to find it.

Dynamic tension and the striking/testing of the limbs type?
As Goju/Uechi karate ka do with sanchin?
Does that sound familure?

Just a thought

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 05:55 AM

Sanchin is a shaolin-derived "hard" qigong. That's why you see it in Fujian White Crane and karate derived from Southern Chinese gongfu. Sometime ago, someone posted a Youtube link of 4 masters performing sanchin - all of them doing it differently. Makes you wonder, no...?

BTW, Kenji Ushiro (Uechi-ryu) does it a lot softer than I've seen most Uechi people do it.

I guess the question one should be asking is - what is the difference between sanchin as a qigong exercise and other forms of qigong. Especially, all the qi detractors out there. If you don't believe qi exists, then why are you practising sanchin - a qigong exercise????

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 10:31 AM

simple. Sanchin needn't be thought of as a qigong exercise. and qigong needn't be thought of in terms of qi.

The reason is since 'qi' is a relative term based on whose describing it as a conceptual model AND what time period they are in (have you read descriptions of qi written 100+ years ago? - wow, talk about 'out there', kinda makes you wonder just how wide-spead the opium crisis really was

).

'qi' as a learning tool term is inspecific and widely misinterpreted - I would even venture to say 'outdated'.

people often describe qi in terms of metaphorical paradox and circular reasoning - which only serves to illustrate THEIR confusion....and no two people are confused in quite the same way, which is why we always have 30+ page qi threads.

despite all the back-n-forth over a conceptual model, it is entirely possible to teach MA without techncial terms or metaphysical concepts at all. and qi is loaded with metaphysical description. in fact, an interesting note of qi's trend thru the centuries of how the term was used, seems to show that the further back you go, the more ontological and cosmological qi becomes.

it appears to have followed the same path from superstition, being modified along the way in an attempt to fit the need and the times. the concept hasn't driven reality - the reality has driven the concept. it's after the fact, therefore not necessary.

you see qi in martial artists of high caliber reguardless of whether they trained thru qi terms or understand their concepts, yes? since they perhaps did not train thru your conceptual model, how could they have possibly attained the high level they have? it must follow that apparently, the concepts and training methods are interchangable - I believe they are. from wrestling to aikido, when I see a high level practitioner, I see efficiency. You can superimpose qi as explaining that efficiency, but it's not necessarily a reflection of that skilled practioners training method.

you see Qigong exercises in Sanchin, I see exercises in refining basics.

Posted by: butterfly

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 11:44 AM

Quote:

you see qi in martial artists of high caliber reguardless of whether they trained thru qi terms or understand their concepts, yes? since they perhaps did not train thru your conceptual model, how could they have possibly attained the high level they have? it must follow that apparently, the concepts and training methods are interchangable - I believe they are. from wrestling to aikido, when I see a high level practitioner, I see efficiency. You can superimpose qi as explaining that efficiency, but it's not necessarily a reflection of that skilled practioners training method.

Exactomundo!!!

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 11:49 AM

Quote:

Sanchin is a shaolin-derived "hard" qigong. That's why you see it in Fujian White Crane and karate derived from Southern Chinese gongfu. Sometime ago, someone posted a Youtube link of 4 masters performing sanchin - all of them doing it differently. Makes you wonder, no...?

BTW, Kenji Ushiro (Uechi-ryu) does it a lot softer than I've seen most Uechi people do it.

I guess the question one should be asking is - what is the difference between sanchin as a qigong exercise and other forms of qigong. Especially, all the qi detractors out there. If you don't believe qi exists, then why are you practising sanchin - a qigong exercise????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xmo9BiYiH8

The guy( no disrespect intended) performing this kata is to the best of my knowledge 79 years of age?

Qigong or chi kung is an aspect of traditional Chinese medicine involving the coordination of different breathing patterns with various physical postures and motions of the body

So on effect this part of the use of a kata is a method to/ way of keeping health.?

Qi, [ IPA phonetic spelling needed here ] also commonly spelled ch'i (in Wade-Giles romanization) or ki (in romanized Japanese), is a fundamental concept of traditional Chinese culture. Qi is believed to be part of every living thing that exists, as a kind of “life force” or “spiritual energy”. It is frequently translated as “energy flow", or literally as “air” or “breath

If I believe in this or not I will/ should also get the other beneficial aspects and the bunkia/ fighting methods in any kata.

Surely the posture as bossman decribed is going to be in some of these katas as they are practiced?
If yourself or Bossman would care to observe the above kata and see if it present that would be good.

Jude

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 12:36 PM

I prefer this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hn_v3-cMoo

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 12:54 PM

Quote:

I prefer this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hn_v3-cMoo

Thanks

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/04/07 05:10 PM

Qi in this context simply means "breath", and qigong means breath work. If you don't know what the importance of breath work is to the IMA, then I don't think you're doing IMA. You're just doing some external form of "breathing" and you might as well be hyperventilating....

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 12:26 AM

Quote:

Qi in this context simply means "breath", and qigong means breath work. If you don't know what the importance of breath work is to the IMA then I don't think you're doing IMA. You're just doing some external form of "breathing" and you might as well be hyperventilating....

I dont think I am doing IMA's and to be honest I dont understand what the difference is? This isnt me critiscising it just not understanding it.

I observe practioners of the so called IMA's doing/ showing
as part of their training some what I consider good body strengthening exercises.

I read of the different western meanings of chi and dont comprehend it.

It seems some tai chi chuan masters were having arguments about the full tansmission of knowledge??

The video I have posted of the 79 year old?
What kind of breathing would you say he is doing?
I am asking because I can only guess.
Bear in mind the guy is still training like some 32 year old at 79years old.

Zuo Lai Feng? Is that a system of the internal arts?

Jude

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 12:29 AM

Quote:

I prefer this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hn_v3-cMoo

If I have this correct the guy is using the posture( It looks that way) as you described while practicing the kata?

Jude

A bit of history for anyone who might be interested

Kanban Uechi(Of uechi ryu. The practioner on the video)

left his home in Okinawa and went to Fuken Province, China, in 1898. Okinawa is a small chain of islands between China and Japan. Okinawa is much like our Hawaiian Islands. Kanban Uechi initially went to the Kojo Dojo, but is treated poorly because of a speech problem, apparently he spoke with a lisp. A few months later he met Shu Shiwa, a local kung-fu master, who was very famous in Southern China. Kanban Uechi then left the Kojo dojo and began studying under Master Shu Shiwa. Shu Shiwa was a master of three animal styles, tiger, dragon and crane. It was very rare to be a master of more than one animal style at that time. Shu Shiwa’s system of kung fu was called Pai Gai Noon Chaun Fa. Pai Gai Noon means half hard and half soft. Chaun-fa means law of the fist or way of the fist and is used the way we use the term "boxing". Chaun-fa is basically what we call Kung fu in English and is also called Kempo in Japanese, so these three terms are used interchangeably.

http://www.fcac.com/lkc/docs/uechihistory.htm

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 12:39 AM

Quote:

If you don't know what the importance of breath work is to the IMA, then I don't think you're doing IMA.

If you don't know the importance of breath work in utility, then I don't think you are training for utility.

The trappings with training towards a conceptual model (IMA), is that the model you are working with might not bring you closer to utility (if you decide utility is important).

(not 'you' literally, eyrie)

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 01:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If you don't know what the importance of breath work is to the IMA, then I don't think you're doing IMA.

If you don't know the importance of breath work in utility, then I don't think you are training for utility.

The trappings with training towards a conceptual model (IMA), is that the model you are working with might not bring you closer to utility (if you decide utility is important).

(not 'you' literally, eyrie)

Simplified.
If the Importance/method of breathing isn’t understood in its part in a physical exercise.
Then that person isn’t training to reach the practical purpose of the exercise.

The problem with working to a theorectical ideal? Is that (in that case) the training might not achieve the goal of the physical training. If that person decides that is their goal.

So could both be trained at the same time? If they were
both understood or even not understood just yet?

Jude

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 01:51 AM

Ok, Ed, what do you understand about breathing? Utility for what Function and Purpose? How do you do it? What are you focusing on in breath work? What are you looking to accomplish as a result of breath work?

And don't just say "inhale/exhale". Give us the meat.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 02:09 AM

Quote:

Ok, Ed, what do you understand about breathing? Utility for what Function and Purpose? How do you do it? What are you focusing on in breath work? What are you looking to accomplish as a result of breath work?

And don't just say "inhale/exhale". Give us the meat.

Hi
Just a suggestion.
Could you guys give a simple explanation of the jist of it along with the in depth word-oelegy ( does that word exist?)

Sometimes it takes (admittedly well spent) time to work out what some of you guys are getting at. (This can be done later)
Tend to lose track of the conversation.

Jude

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 08:46 AM

Quote:

Ok, Ed, what do you understand about breathing? Utility for what Function and Purpose? How do you do it? What are you focusing on in breath work? What are you looking to accomplish as a result of breath work?

And don't just say "inhale/exhale". Give us the meat.

What are your answers, Eyrie?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 08:08 PM

What's your answer? Ed's answer? I asked first. Show me why you think what you do is "internal" and based on non-esoteric concepts, since my answers are obviously unsatisfactory.

BTW, have you tried the simple exercise I described a few posts ago? Can you do it? Without using "muscle strength" and shoulder? Since you and Ed obviously are not completely satisfied that my descriptions are rooted in physics and not "qi" esoterica, why can't YOU do it? Or even figure out how it works?

If you can't, then my saying anything further regarding breathing or anything else seems pointless. Maybe you should find that arbitrary initiation ritual and try it first before dismissing it out of hand, or keep doing what you're doing since you obviously think you know what you're doing is no different to internal stuff.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/05/07 11:51 PM

first, I wasn't directing at you personally - think I even mentioned that.

The point I was getting at is that you can train breathing drills towards an ideal - but if the ideal is off, then it won't do a heck of a lotta good in application.

An untrained person tends to hold their breath and/or have erratic and constricted tense patterns based on stress level and unawareness.

A trained person (and this seems to go accross the boards of all arts), never holds their breath, has smooth breathing pattern along with learned technique of controlled bursts, near simulataneous inhale/exhale when warrented, relaxed not constricted upper body, and timing optimized to movement. in a sentence: smoothness, timing and control translate into quicker response, better power transfer, and energy conservation.

A western boxer, for instance, learns all these intrinsicly and to the point of instictiveness without even knowing how to pronounce the term 'Qi'....and the only 'baggage' while doing so, is the one hanging from the ceiling or feeling bad after hitting a sparring partner too hard.

It is possible to go beyond whats practical and get so wrapped up in the esoteric, that the practical gets lost to the idealism of it all.

Someone could train all the breathing pattern drills that IMA has to offer, yet if she/he's never had the stakes raised when doing 2-person drills/sparring with the risk of actually being hit - or recovering from getting hit - his refined breathing patterns aren't going to overcome the negatives of the newly introduced stress level...negating his decades of theory-based ideological training. but nobody can say he/she doesn't understand IMA concepts though - I'll give you that.

p.s. which all comes down to one singularity: controling/maintaining/channeling FEAR. as an illustrative example semi-related: after growing up with integrated learned breathing, meditation and relaxation method - being afraid of heights and looking down from 6,000 feet up before exiting a perfectly good airplane - I was stiff as a board, white as a ghost, tunnelvision, pit in the stomach, could have thrown up, held my breath and jumped out....all prior training of control was negated by a newly introduced fear.
How do you train for control of something like that other than actually doing it? can you emulate tramatic fear in the dojo? is someone *really* trying to hit you, or did you just learn to trust your partners?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 12:05 AM

In other words, you have no idea - apart from a cursory and surface level understanding of basic breath control.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 12:17 AM

sorry, added the p.s. after your post.

thats right eyrie. I have no idea. think I mentioned that too at some point in this thread. now you can go back to feeling superior and all is well.

you can be sure that because you understand IMA concepts, that your training in them will remain intact even in the face of tramatic fear.

or you could be like the no-touch 'ki master' in that video where he looks at his nose-blodied hand like it's the first time he's ever seen himself bleed. wonder how his breathing patterns were after getting hit.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 12:37 AM

You openly admit you don't know, yet you somehow feel qualified to dismiss things because they don't fit neatly into your limited paradigm.

The difference between you and I, Ed, is that you operate from a position of fear and ignorant bliss. So save your sarcasm.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 12:58 AM

could be true. but just sharing alternate view, eyrie.

ok...your turn. let's have the 'meat' as you say. give us your view of the very same questions you asked me of breathing principles. actually your exact questions were:

Quote:

what do you understand about breathing? Utility for what Function and Purpose? How do you do it? What are you focusing on in breath work? What are you looking to accomplish as a result of breath work?

And don't just say "inhale/exhale". Give us the meat.

I think I addressed each of those to my understanding. so have at it....

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 01:07 AM

Maybe you should do your own research... why should I share anything with you, and your sarcastic, Mr-know-it-all attitude?

Besides, even if I did explain it, what's to stop you from twisting it around and putting words in my mouth, as you always do?

Instead of coming here and thinking you know it all and can explain this from your non-qi perspective, go do some research and maybe you won't have to ask me to explain it.

As for the exercise earlier... can you do it? Can you explain it?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 01:30 AM

don't explain it just for me eyrie. explain it for your own sense of honesty to the thread.

you asked me those questions.
then Matt asked for your opinion of your own questions.
then you said that since you asked first, I'd have to give my opinion first (insinuating to Matt, that if I gave opinion first, then you'd give yours)

now that I've given mine, are you now hedging? if so, isn't that deceptive and dishonest? why should anyone now believe you know the answer to your own 'retorical' questions?

you underscore my unqualified and oversimplistic opinion, without qualifying yours? what kind of lameness is that?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 01:43 AM

Why? So you can tear it down with your twisted sarcastic remarks?

So what if you think I'm hedging or being dishonest or deceptive? I couldn't care less what you think.

You want an explanation? Fine... breathe thru your skin.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 01:52 AM

Quote:

Why? So you can tear it down with your twisted sarcastic remarks?

So what if you think I'm hedging or being dishonest or deceptive? I couldn't care less what you think.

You want an explanation? Fine... breathe thru your skin.

well, live and learn. now I know that when you ask questions, you get angry when the same questions are directed to you.

and relax, eyrie...whydoncha learn to breathe so you can apply it to everyday life.

'breathing thru your skin' is physically impossible. I like simplicity with real life visualization and application. as oppossed to conceptual double-talk that is designed to confuse more than enlighten....but thats just my opinion, if I'm allowed to have one.

If 'breathe thru your skin' is the meat, I'll opt to order from the vegitarian menu. lol

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 02:06 AM

See, I just gave you the basic intent of IMA breathing, and what do you do...???

And you're pretty sure breathing thru the skin is a physical impossibility? Ya willing to bet money on it?

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 03:08 AM

Quote:

If 'breathe thru your skin' is the meat, I'll opt to order from the vegitarian menu. lol

Eyrie, Mr. Ed Morris is being real soft on you; at least he didn't say "arbitrary initiation ritual" (I can't even say that in one 'breath')

Actually for a while there I had my doubts whether you really know what's all about, but with that "breathe thru your skin" bit, I now have no more doubts, assuming you can actually do it of course and not just theorising or reading about someone else doing it. As you well might know, this form of breath-body-training is not anything 'advanced', it is actually beginner's stuff, something anyone doing Sanchin/Tensho as a form of chi gung will know, and if not, then not.

BTW, it's OK, no need to get all heated up; anyone, including Ed is allowed to say what he/she knows; everybody, ourselves included, speak from personal experiences and knowledge available to that person at any particular point in time, and opinions (including ours of course) can and frequently do change over the course of a person's lifetime.

What we know and say today is what we know today.

I think all of us should now go train whatever it is that we are training today and if anytime in the future our opinion changes due to the training, we can always have another discussion.

Jude, if you think I know what I am talking about, well then, smile, if not, there is always You Tube, which, I might add, will also bring on a smile, to me at least.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 03:48 AM

Well, BP, I'm really only a beginner and I don't know much about anything. What I do know is I still have a long way to go. Getting the hairs to stand on end is still a bit of a trick... one I have not yet mastered.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 04:55 AM

Quote:

arbitrary initiation ritual"
Illogical initiation ritual?

Jude, if you think I know what I am talking about, well then, smile, if not, there is always You Tube, which, I might add, will also bring on a smile, to me at least.

My immediate response if I allow my (theorectical?)inhereted? homo-erectus genetic coding to show through would be;

Huh??
What?
You might know the type. If asked what "arbitrary initiation ritual" could mean the answer might be

Huh? a new type of beer?

But if I swiftly cancel that genetic coding and attempt to use the given additional ability to learn on a higher(?)
level given to ( but not always used) homo - sapians.

I am glad it brings a smile to your face.

arbitrary initiation ritual"
Illogical initiation ritual?

Lost me on that one.

Can you some of you guys not argue with out getting touchy?

Breathing in means oxygen
Skipping the process in between
The end product of the process is energy
The kind of energy that cant be seen. Energy obtained from the output of the changing of molocules. A bit like the output of x-rays.

Maybe this is what the IMA's are getting at.
Jude

Internal energy?.

Please notice the icon? That means I am guessing.

Jude

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 05:50 AM

Ref
"Can you some of you guys not argue with out getting touchy"?

Should have read Can some of you guys not argue with out getting touchy?

Didnt mean you personaly in that statement.

The first "you" was a typing error

Jude

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 06:59 AM

Quote:

Please notice the icon? That means I am guessing.

Why do you want to quess when it's right in front of your eyes, or rather your face?

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 07:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Please notice the icon? That means I am guessing.

Why do you want to quess when it's right in front of your eyes, or rather your face?

I am a bit slow on the uptake today.

Explain?

Jude

Posted by: harlan

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 07:49 AM

Jude...below your post there are 4 images/icons. The third one to the right is 'notify moderator'...if you are so inclined.

But it's still early...pistols anyone?

Posted by: harlan

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 07:51 AM

Bet money? Not me.

Define 'breathing'. Obviously on a cellular level there are things going on, and I think I've read somethere that some species perform respiration through the skin.

Quote:

And you're pretty sure breathing thru the skin is a physical impossibility? Ya willing to bet money on it?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 07:55 AM

Quote:

And you're pretty sure breathing thru the skin is a physical impossibility? Ya willing to bet money on it?

and even after I get confrimation from medical professionals that have studied the human body inside and out for decades, have them sign a written statement as fact that someone can't facilitate breathing thru their skin - then going one step further and placing you in a tank of water and seeing if you can produce bubbles from your skin (and from around your butthole doesn't count).

- juding by your behavior, you wouldn't pay up anyway and would then change your position by saying: "well, of course I didn't mean it literally".

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 08:03 AM

Quote:

Maybe you should do your own research... why should I share anything with you, and your sarcastic, Mr-know-it-all attitude?

Besides, even if I did explain it, what's to stop you from twisting it around and putting words in my mouth, as you always do?

Instead of coming here and thinking you know it all and can explain this from your non-qi perspective, go do some research and maybe you won't have to ask me to explain it.

As for the exercise earlier... can you do it? Can you explain it?

Funny.....I thought I was the one that asked you, Eyrie.

And no, obviously I can't do or explain the exercise you mentioned. That's why I'm asking.

What do you mean "breathe thru your skin?" I know that humans do pass oxygen through the skin - but not enough to stay alive in lieu of normal respiration. I don't get your point.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 08:07 AM

Quote:

Jude...below your post there are 4 images/icons. The third one to the right is 'notify moderator'...if you are so inclined.

But it's still early...pistols anyone?

I presume that is the embarressed icon?

Ta'= Northern English expression for thanks.

Jude

Footnote

Breathing in means oxygen
Skipping the process in between
The end product of the process is energy
The kind of energy that cant be seen. Energy obtained from the output of the changing of molocules. A bit like the output of x-rays.

Maybe this is what the IMA's are getting at.

Internal energy?.

Seems like it isnt. Seems I should be looking at the human brain to find the answer. Ed, Matt I think Eyrie does have a functional point.

Jude

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 11:03 AM

huh? you are being hypnotized.

think rationally for a sec...

breathing:

Quote:

Breathing in, or inhaling, is usually an active movement, with the contraction of the diaphragm muscles needed. At rest, breathing out, or exhaling, is normally a passive process powered by the elastic recoil of the chest, similar to a deflating balloon. The following organs are used in respiration: mouth, nose, gullet, windpipe, lungs, diaphragm.

I don't see 'skin' listed there. and skin is the largest organ.
Even if talking about what powers breathing itself, it's the diaphragm muscles...not the skin.

but lets suppose all of western medicine and physiology is wrong. let's put the concept of 'breathing thru your skin' to the literal test....shall we:

since skin has a much larger cubic surface area than what the mouth and nose can take in, then you should have no problem continuing to get air to your lungs while you are being choked, right?

If you can breathe thru your skin, here is another test: put a plastic bag over your head and seal it....if you last 8 minutes without passing out or 10 minutes without dying/severe brain damage, then you win the bet and western science has to rewrite their books.

see, thats the problem with using flowery concepts in place of exact language....they can stray from reality so far, that you forget what you are really doing and get lost in the concepts themselves for their own sake. everything has to ultimately resolve to external function, or it is function without purpose.
ie: if you can't DO anything with it, then you are engaging in esoteric exercise.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/06/07 05:12 PM

Hi Ed.

I didn’t say I believed in breathing through the skin.
I am trying to work out how the IMA's generate their power as opposed to external arts.

Jude

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 06:55 PM

Quote:

And no, obviously I can't do or explain the exercise you mentioned. That's why I'm asking.

Matt, I nearly gave you the solution! Newton's 3 laws? Jude nearly got it in one post - but then I don't think he really understood what it is he got. But he will one day... hopefully. The solution itself is simple. Doing it is the hard part, but it can be done. And if it can be done statically, it can be done dynamically and therefore, applicable in technique application.

Quote:

What do you mean "breathe thru your skin?" I know that humans do pass oxygen through the skin - but not enough to stay alive in lieu of normal respiration. I don't get your point.

It's too detailed to go into, and I'm not going to do this here on an open forum. Suffice to say, humans are capable of skin respiration, not to the same extent that some other species are capable of - and certainly not to the level of absurdity that Ed makes it out to be.

However, the point is not about actually breathing thru your skin (the absurd point that Ed is insinuating), but to exercise micro-level control over specific body functions. Such micro control (using the breath - since it is the only autonomic function that is under our conscious control), is not the end in itself, but a means to exercise overall control of our bodies on an internal level.

Such overall control leads to, overall, more efficiency in movement and power generation. Power generation in IMA is different to EMA. But like the hard/soft dichotomy, it is not a purely this or that distinction - there will be varying degrees of internal/external along the continuum. Most arts will have some elements of both internal/external, some more so than others in various ways. I think this needs to be clear. It is not simply a case of "oh, we also do that...so what's the difference?", and certainly not for discussion purposes.

For starters, breath pressure manipulation of internal structures is merely a power augmentation device, but it's not as simple as inhale and exhale on output. It's a lot more complicated than that.

And then there's the rest of it - peppered throughout this and other threads. Look for the gems.

That's all I'm saying on this issue.

I'll just add that if one practices sanchin/tensho and does not fully know or understand what it is they are practising, then chances are, they are merely replicating an internally-bereft fascimile. Same goes for taiji forms or what have you forms - aikido techniques included.

Knowing and understanding what you are practicing helps add the correct intent and focus on your practice, true?

Otherwise, you might as well be better off hitting the weights and getting stronger that way. It's still strength training right?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 08:14 PM

your questions:

Quote:

what do you understand about breathing? Utility for what Function and Purpose? How do you do it? What are you focusing on in breath work? What are you looking to accomplish as a result of breath work?

And don't just say "inhale/exhale". Give us the meat.

The 'meat' answer to your own questions:

Quote:

... breathe thru your skin.

and now:

Quote:

However, the point is not about actually breathing thru your skin

thanks for clearing that up, totally makes sense now.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 09:05 PM

What a lot of fuss.

Why does chi have to translate to a western, and scientific paradigm? If it's not something you want to base your arts on...don't. I guess I don't get the point. *confused*

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 09:08 PM

If you're going to quote me, at least have the decency to not take it out of context:

the point is not about actually breathing thru your skin (the absurd point that Ed is insinuating)

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 09:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And no, obviously I can't do or explain the exercise you mentioned. That's why I'm asking.

Matt, I nearly gave you the solution! Newton's 3 laws? Jude nearly got it in one post - but then I don't think he really understood what it is he got. But he will one day... hopefully. The solution itself is simple. Doing it is the hard part, but it can be done. And if it can be done statically, it can be done dynamically and therefore, applicable in technique application.
1st law: "An object tends to stay at rest or continue at a constant velocity unless acted upon by an external force"
2nd law: F = m x a
3rd law: "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction".

ALL as they relate to MA are internal cause and external effect.

Quote:

What do you mean "breathe thru your skin?" I know that humans do pass oxygen through the skin - but not enough to stay alive in lieu of normal respiration. I don't get your point.

It's too detailed to go into, and I'm not going to do this here on an open forum. Suffice to say, humans are capable of skin respiration, not to the same extent that some other species are capable of - and certainly not to the level of absurdity that Ed makes it out to be.
"too detailed." "not in open forum." shhh...secrets. don't question the man behind the curtain!

"humans are capable of skin respiration" - lol. and you call me absurd?

However, the point is not about actually breathing thru your skin (the absurd point that Ed is insinuating), but to exercise micro-level control over specific body functions. Such micro control (using the breath - since it is the only autonomic function that is under our conscious control), is not the end in itself, but a means to exercise overall control of our bodies on an internal level.
So now you ARE changing your position? first you say it's the 'meat', now you are saying it's not the point?

Such overall control leads to, overall, more efficiency in movement and power generation. Power generation in IMA is different to EMA. But like the hard/soft dichotomy, it is not a purely this or that distinction - there will be varying degrees of internal/external along the continuum. Most arts will have some elements of both internal/external, some more so than others in various ways. I think this needs to be clear. It is not simply a case of "oh, we also do that...so what's the difference?", and certainly not for discussion purposes.
I agree everything has elements of yeilding and reactive forces.

For starters, breath pressure manipulation of internal structures is merely a power augmentation device, but it's not as simple as inhale and exhale on output. It's a lot more complicated than that.
Many IMA don't describe it as internal air pressure regulation (which you can't physically do since we don't have the biological mechanisims to facilitate internal atmospheric pressure). instead, many IMA's describe the manipulation of the diaphram muscle, which IS controllable. manipulating it to affect balance and timing...which, after really researching this topic, is exactly what boxers are doing except do not extract a conceptual framework for - it's inherent to their training. kind of a 'learned on the job' skill aquisition.

And then there's the rest of it - peppered throughout this and other threads. Look for the gems.
yeah Matt, sift through the hundreds of posts not knowing what to look for and then ask me again in 10 years....

That's all I'm saying on this issue.
shhhh....I've said too much already.

I'll just add that if one practices sanchin/tensho and does not fully know or understand what it is they are practising, then chances are, they are merely replicating an internally-bereft fascimile. Same goes for taiji forms or what have you forms - aikido techniques included.
similarly, if IMAists have nothing to externaly apply from their internal training which non-IMAist cannot do, then they are simply engaged in an alternate training method at best, and an empty practice at worst.

Knowing and understanding what you are practicing helps add the correct intent and focus on your practice, true?
exactly! which is why explaining things as 'breathe thru your skin' will do nothing to illustrate what the intent of thinking to do so will give you.

Otherwise, you might as well be better off hitting the weights and getting stronger that way. It's still strength training right?
don't berate raw strength building until after you defeat a gorilla with your bare hands.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 09:43 PM

You can tell when someone is grasping at straws when they start attacking you point by point - like an 800lb gorilla.

I've seen the same old tired arguments from you before. I have nothing to prove to you or need to convince you otherwise. You will continue to believe what you want to believe, irrespective of what I say.

Best to you...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 09:48 PM

glad you got the gorilla reference

all the best eyrie. you slip away once again with mistique and all-knowing aloofness intact.

good luck with your continued success in befuddling wide-eyed noobs.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 10:01 PM

If you think that is going to bait me into sharing anything with you, you are sorely mistaken. It just makes you look like a pregnant female gorilla's a$$.

So, were you bullied in school, or were you the bully?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 10:42 PM

darnit. thought my ploy would get you to share your secrets of frog-style skin breathing.

nah, in school I only bullied and was bullied by the teachers by constantly asking for references and proofs....which discovered most of them were just regurgitating without knowing the validity of their teachings, and turned on me when cornered, in an attempt to 'save face'. The art of 'class clowning' was not a foreign concept to me. it's a refined artform.

with fellow classmates, I just partied...no bullying going on in either direction. in school, I remember arguing with teachers and laughing with friends.

didn't get any gorilla's pregnant though, thank gezuz...

do you always ask questions and expect an answer from people without any inkling ever returning to share your own view/experience? instead you give crypic and widely interpretive generalities that read like Nostrodamus quatranes. don't you feel like you have to take a shower after being that deceptive and dishonest? it's enough to clog the pores, inhibiting your skin breathing, eyrie.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/06/07 11:21 PM

I see.... you were the smart arse

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 03:29 AM

Quote:

What a lot of fuss.

Why does chi have to translate to a western, and scientific paradigm? If it's not something you want to base your arts on...don't. I guess I don't get the point. *confused*

Hi

The point is homosapian males seemingly want to establish their dominance in one form or another. It seems to draw a parrellel with the animal world where hare's( the rabbit kind) will "rut" to further their own line.( pass on their genes)

The problem with that is while the dominant ones are rutting a physicaly sub dominant one might sneak off and further his line.( further his gene's)

All I am interested in is discussing power generation through IMA's.

Jude

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 03:57 AM

Anyway.... the energy does seem to travel through shoes and metal body parts

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 04:02 AM

Energy exists? Prove it!

*Gav remembers he has a lesson on Friday!*

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 04:13 AM

Just another hole in the wall eh?

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 04:21 AM

Mmmmmmmmmm...walls! Better than the stairs you nearly pushed me down last week!

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 04:23 AM

Steve, I know a good plasterer...

Gav, I know a good dit ta sifu...

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 04:30 AM

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 07:22 AM

Quote:

Anyway.... the energy does seem to travel through shoes and metal body parts

yes, it is even reportedly amplified thru tin foil heads.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 07:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Anyway.... the energy does seem to travel through shoes and metal body parts

yes, it is even reportedly amplified thru tin foil heads.

NOW you're getting the idea....

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 07:48 AM

Quote:

Mmmmmmmmmm...walls! Better than the stairs you nearly pushed me down last week!

I can't push anything yet with my dodgy knees....

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 07:56 AM

Gavin's point in another thread about obsessing on a subject is well taken. think I'll stop here.

Everyone 'gets it' their own way (or not). The best way I've found for me is without any terms or metaphores used at all. "like this" - what type of 'hands on' learning is that called? doesn't matter. whatever it's called, works for me.

peace or peices, baby!

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 08:31 AM

I think the point is Ed we all use metaphors is our everyday life. We understand complex processes by explaining them using metaphor. Take for example, "a light bulb moment". It's a common metaphor used to describe a moment of realization, such as in, "My light bulb moment came when he showed me...". This simple use of a metaphor describes the complex task of when we actually understand something, try describing a moment of realization and insight using scientific terms!

Other metaphors like, "It jumped out of the page at me!" or "The news hit me like an arrow!" all convey fairly precise complex ideas, and that its exactly what the use of poetic, seemingly esoteric, language used the IMA's does.

The whole art of poetry is based around the same concept, simple words can be used to convey the depths of human existence. And I suppose Tai Chi is very much like poetry, a seemingly simple collection of simple concepts are merely key points for use to explore and extrapolate their true meaning, and like a good Zen riddle you could spend a life time exploring its meaning.

I suppose thats how I see Tai Chi. as a physical poetry. But the point many miss is that it is "physical" poetry and as such still governed by the laws of the physical world, which is why I always say that there is nothing that can be done by someone that can't be done by another...but they might just not know how to do it. I consider this poetic exploration of the IMA's to be the reason why *some* IMA instructors gain very very indepth and seemingly mystical abilities, just because than have explored the meaning of the poem to a level that surpasses the understanding of the average Joe. To an english professor some poetry is a subtle and deliberate use of language to convey a myriad of ideas, to me, being an illiterate oaf, it's just some ponce spouting on about flowers and other womanly subjects!

But the romantic in me still reads poetry for the hope of a deeper understanding...and I think that is where the obsession of the IMA's come from, its the romantic insight seeker in us longing for deeper knowledge. Trouble is we need someone who can show us how to unlock the meaning of the poem. In the poetry world there are far too many people who learn it to a base level so that they can fool some people and use it as a means for getting laid...unfortunately in the IMA's most poets are also just trying to get laid as well (getting laid is being used in the metaphorical sense here!

)!

If anyone ever gets the chance, study with Bossman...you won't regret it!

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 10:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Mmmmmmmmmm...walls! Better than the stairs you nearly pushed me down last week!

I can't push anything yet with my dodgy knees....

Hi
So after the recovery period then you will be back training?
If so then I think that is great.
Respect you for that Bossman.
Jude

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes & Metal parts - 11/07/07 12:54 PM

I'm training now, about 90 mins a day, physio exercises, 'core' workout, qigong and a little form, stepping between 2 chairs and taking some of the weight on my hands. I just can't take all my weight on a bent leg and step out with the other yet, but it won't be long. I'm teaching every night (I run a full time centre) and give private lessons each day, I have also taught 2 courses abroad and am back in Czech the first week in December - just much of it 'from the bench' and without much demonstration! I went to and taught on the summer course in Czech in a wheelchair and on crutches!

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 03:27 AM

Hi Bossman.

I take my hat off to your will and your courage.
All respects.

Quote:

Jude, if you think I know what I am talking about, well then, smile, if not, there is always You Tube, which, I might add, will also bring on a smile, to me at least.

Hi

Yes I watch you tube.
The more I watch the more I see the top guys from many martial arts.
The more I look at the top guys from some IMA's the more I see while IMA's are classed as internal they seem also to be to a greater degree , external.

Power generation through their legs.
Isometric contraction.
Instructor (Master) who looks to me like he has undergone some form of extensive weight/ restistance training in his life and knows how to get the correct body alignment to achieve good power generation.

High gripping strength/ skills.
Knowledge of anatomy.
High knowledge of off balancing the opponnent.Getting to their blind side
Parrellel lines with ju jitsu techniques, throws etc

I could go on .

I still cant see where the internal part comes in.

So would anybody please care to explain what exactly is the internal part of IMA's?

Jude.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 04:14 AM

I don't see where the confusion is, we have to have both internal and external - you can't have one without the other! Any movement is going to start with the mind, breath nerves,core muscles and then be expressed outwards. The question is how efficiently you can do it. according to what you are doing you may have to become more of one and less of the other.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 04:36 AM

Quote:

I don't see where the confusion is, we have to have both internal and external - you can't have one without the other! Any movement is going to start with the mind, breath nerves,core muscles and then be expressed outwards. The question is how efficiently you can do it. according to what you are doing you may have to become more of one and less of the other.

That makes senses. So could we take this a bit further then beggining with the mind in internal arts. Moving meditation?

How is this carried out?

Jude

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 04:50 AM

You can't meditate until you have a disciplined and skilled mind. First you have to nourish it physically with good breath and posture, then learn to focus it by learning to concentrate on one thing. This requires sitting or standing in alignment with good breathing and dispassionately bringing an undisciplined mind back to one point. This can be done in standing post and the form. The form quickly tells you when your mind has wandered and the mind skills are then learned in layers.

With a skilled and disciplined mind you are able 'meditate' (study and explore with the right brain) any subject from all the aspects of movement, thinking, strategy to what life and the universe is all about

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 05:21 AM

Quote:

You can't meditate until you have a disciplined and skilled mind. First you have to nourish it physically with good breath and posture, then learn to focus it by learning to concentrate on one thing. This requires sitting or standing in alignment with good breathing and dispassionately bringing an undisciplined mind back to one point. This can be done in standing post and the form. The form quickly tells you when your mind has wandered and the mind skills are then learned in layers.

With a skilled and disciplined mind you are able 'meditate' (study and explore with the right brain) any subject from all the aspects of movement, thinking, strategy to what life and the universe is all about

Concentrate on one thing?
I will come back to you in 10 years time.

No, realy I think I am begginng( right at the beggining) to get the jist by what people mean by internal.
That will take some practice Bossman.

Jude.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 06:29 AM

Why not just view it as the inside and outside of movement? There's no point trying to train the body without training the mind an emotions.

The story of the rose is that the scientist took it away and wanted to break it down into it's component parts and make it less to see what it was, the artist saw the rose and wanted to paint it and write poetry about it to make it more than it was, the 'sage' simply saw the hand of the universe. In other words he saw it for exactly what it was. Science is good in the MA's 'art' and 'mystery' are good as tools of learning, but in the end, you need to be able to see it for exactly what it is in perspective with everything else.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 07:03 AM

Quote:

There's no point trying to train the body without training the mind an emotions.

How about starting with 'arbitrary initiation ritual'?

Actually Mr. Ed Morris was not too far wrong; "Arbitrary Initiation Ritual" (AIR = breath = chi)

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 07:47 AM

funny. I agree with bossman that you can't start with meditation. training starts with shaping the body 'molding the clay' to use metaphore.

this has to come before 'shaping the mind'....or else the mind has no point of reference as to what it's shaping towards.

'visualization' is a training tool for the mind - if you don't know what you are visualizing, then what is it doing?

by arbitrary initiation ritual, what I mean is, starting a beginner off with exercises like "meditate with fingertips touching or while smiling for lengths of time" - since they haven't engaged in the physical aspect, how exactly will that enlighten them towards it? it becomes arbitrary without a frame of reference.

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 08:12 AM

Some would argue that you first need to get the mind in a place where it can perceive the teaching it's about to receive. The flow stops where the tension begins...everything starts in the mind before its converted into a neurological impulse. Our state of mind has a very distinct affect on our physiology and our brains ability to communicate with the body via the nervous system. In Shiatsu we often talk about "addressing an underlying energetic pattern" but in western terms this could be thought of as a pre-existing learnt neurological pattern. To address this via physical manipulation we communicate new patterns of movement to brain via the nervous system. To open up a dialog with the brain via the nervous system, we need to get the clients body in a state of relaxation and calm so this communication can be heard and acted upon. So, it's feasible to imagine that getting the mind in a state of stillness is a reasonable state to start teaching it something new. Unfortunately we've only touched upon that sort of stuff this year on my course, but a lot of next years syllabus is based around communicating new patterns to the brain via external physical interaction...can't wait!

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 09:02 AM

Yin Yang, Yang Yin, which ever way you start, it ends up the same. The physical part is the Yang part and the mental part is the Yin. When they come together and become 'One', it becomes Tai Chi, the black and white double, entwined fish; "hard/soft, soft/hard" sounds familiar?

When I said 'start' I meant starting the mental side of things; most people when they start on IMA, they usually already have years of EMA behind them, and even for true beginners, it's just about getting to feel comfortable about exploring methods of mental concentration, which will come in handy when the physical part kicks in, as by then you have to worry about the mind and the body simultaneously and every physical action is 'energised' (if we were to skip the word chi) by a "mental pulse" This is the best I can explain it in words because this is how it 'feels' like and therefore the power that is generated thus comes from the 'inside' being a fast wave-like sensation that travels through the body when directed by the mind (more than mere 'intent' as it is an actual physical sensation) and so it's 'internal' and the up-shot is the need to use less pure and obvious muscular power and the resultant whole-body alignment is that much more easier to achieve and maintain simply because you are not one big hard lump of rocky muscle. This happens when the 'hard/soft' melt together so that there is 'external strength' (the hard part) and the 'internal energy', the 'wave' (the soft part) that together propels the whole bodily action involved in whatever technique that is being used. I can only explain what is meant by internal this way.

This is the 'funny' part that is understandable through training, like breathing thru the skin, (which Eyrie in a fit of anger neglects to make clear) is part (I emphasise part) of the training to get the ability to send that wave-like sensation to the skin and being able to do that at the speed of thought, or else it would not be of much use in combat. This wave-like sensation does feel like as though the air from your lungs is 'exiting' through the skin because it is done on the out-breath (which was why it was called "chi", "breath", because that's what it feels like)

And with more training, this 'wave' also does seem to extend beyond the skin and if done near to something like a wall, it seems to 'bounce' off the wall and actually physically pushes your body back. Don't laugh, this is where I am at now. Now, this is where we get real quantum because the logic is if that can happen, and I have no doubt it does because I can do it, then it is merely a question of magnitude and amplitude as to what can happen next. This I do not know yet as I am only at the generating part. Before I get to this stage I too have doubts and not being able to actually feel it, I didn't know it was even possible.

The question to ask from a scientific point of view is what exactly is this wave-like thing; is it electromagnetic or what, as our whole body works on electrical impulses, otherwise the heart would not beat. The next question is if it is electromagnetic in nature, what are it's properties and what or how it will react or rather what are the reactive consequences it produces by it's relative motion.

I've been wanting to consult some physicist on this but thought I'll increase the magnitude a bit more first.

I suppose by now you are rolling on the floor and begging for mercy?

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 09:26 AM

Hi

Judes thoughts.
This is turning into a good informative thread.

Jude

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 10:12 AM

actually, no. I'm not rolling my eyes.

this part:

Quote:

is part (I emphasise part) of the training to get the ability to send that wave-like sensation to the skin and being able to do that at the speed of thought, or else it would not be of much use in combat. This wave-like sensation does feel like as though the air from your lungs is 'exiting' through the skin because it is done on the out-breath (which was why it was called "chi", "breath", because that's what it feels like)

I can visualize that. I don't think there is a term for it, but in Japanese arts, it's a component of 'kime'. it's basically imagining your mass as being projected into the target at the moment of impact. I suppose you can get the same effect if the imagery is that there is air pressure being projected/released from your skin.

as to the other phenonomenon you mention, we feel what the mind 'sees' sometimes. Blindfold and earplug yourself and have someone randomly either guide you to a place near a wall, or put you in the middle of the room. Then have your friend record when you feel the recoil from the wall or not each time. If you sense the recoil only when you were near a wall, then you'll have something. If not, I'd look to psychological origins of that bounce sensation.

We take so many subconscious cues from our other senses, that we really believe 'X' is going on...but when blind-tested, we might find out 'Y'.

dare yourself to do tests like that. get to the bottom of it without letting yourself cheat.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 10:47 AM

Quote:

...it's basically imagining your mass as being projected into the target at the moment of impact. I suppose you can get the same effect if the imagery is that there is air pressure being projected/released from your skin.

Herein lies the problem. You have to explain it this way because you have not felt it and therefore have no real physical point of reference except to look for some explanation that will conform to a point of view. I too consider myself as rational and as able to see what is and what is not real. I know what 'kime' means as well. It is not a question of 'imaginning it', it is a trained condition that results from a specific training methodology with a real physical sensation as part of IMA training, not something I picked up from some guru in a feel-good seminar. I can only convince someone if that person trains with me for a year or so and then and only then can a true appraisal be made; otherwise one can only 'explain' it from a non-experiential perspective.

Quote:

...dare yourself to do tests like that. get to the bottom of it without letting yourself cheat.

I am way ahead of you. I did question it in the beginning and so I started some distance away from the wall and with my eyes closed walked slowly towards it and sure enough I felt the bounce about a foot or so away.

Though I know what to do with it for my IMA/EMA training, this 'esoteric' part is something new and I will pursue it to see where it leads; that is the only way to find out, by doing it.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 10:54 AM

I am going for my beauty sleep now and will not be replying until tomorrow, my time zone. Goodnight.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 05:48 PM

Quote:

This is the 'funny' part that is understandable through training, like breathing thru the skin, (which Eyrie in a fit of anger neglects to make clear) is part (I emphasise part) of the training to get the ability to send that wave-like sensation to the skin and being able to do that at the speed of thought, or else it would not be of much use in combat. This wave-like sensation does feel like as though the air from your lungs is 'exiting' through the skin because it is done on the out-breath (which was why it was called "chi", "breath", because that's what it feels like)

Let me make one thing clear... I can be short, annoyed, but never angry. It takes a lot more to get me really riled. I intentionally left out a lot of information, simply because, and as you well know... without having experienced it and actually FEELING it, it is hard to describe it to someone who has no point of reference with which to comprehend what you mean.

That is entirely different to being vague or using obscure terminology. It's like trying to describe what sounds "sound" like to a deaf person. The deaf person has no frame of reference to understand what you mean, since they have not heard sound. Describing sounds as vibrations, or changes in frequency, amplitude or pitch, may mean something if they can feel the vibrations, but that is simply a poor substitute for physically hearing the richness of sound. And that makes it even more amazing, considering how Beethoven composed music without ever hearing what his symphonies sounded like.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 05:56 PM

Quote:

Some would argue that you first need to get the mind in a place where it can perceive the teaching it's about to receive. The flow stops where the tension begins...everything starts in the mind before its converted into a neurological impulse.

I tend to agree with the mind first approach, although the obverse is also workable - it largely depends on the person I think. Everyone's wired differently.

I tend to look at it from the perspective that if the mind is quiet and still, the body can start to feel and be sensitive to a range of natural phenomena that one normally takes for granted.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/08/07 09:34 PM

I agree with teaching/pointing out self-awareness. whether it's thru meditation and/or during drills, it does depend on what resonates the best with each person - so I agree there too! howboutthat. If you go back a few pages, thats all I was saying.

one thing that they always stressed in College is that in H.S. they teach WHAT to learn...but in College they try to teach HOW to learn.

similarly, self-awareness in MA study teaches you how to learn.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/09/07 01:50 AM

Quote:

I can be short, annoyed, but never angry. It takes a lot more to get me really riled.

I am not trying to get you really riled, but I didn't notice that your physical height was in issue? Ohh...you mean 'short' as in short-tempered? You deliberately left this part out as well?

Quote:

It's like trying to describe what sounds "sound" like to a deaf person.

Lets try something closer to home; how about describing to and get someone who has never had a sexual orgasm before to 'visualise' what it FEELS like. But just one experience is worth a zillion words. Except of course in the breathing thru skin, it is entirely within your mental and physical control in time and space when applied in IMA.

On the point of which to do first; mental or physical; in my case of course I already had years of physical tension training before I was taught and worked on the mental part, and achieve a sort of mini enlightenment moment when both harmoniously came and gel together and I said to myself, SO THIS IS WHAT IT IS!

I would expect that a rank beginner who do the mental part first or simultaneously with the physical (as there is really no need to postpone the physical part) or even to do the physical part much later, to have the same mini enlightenment moment because it is when BOTH harmoniously come and gel together that things happen. The mental part alone merely gives you some conscious control over your mental processes to generate internal sensitivity and awareness but without any physical element to express it and so can then be termed 'non-utilitarian' in a martial context; but can however be a stepping stone to other non-martial applications.

The physical part merely gives you the trained ability to have tensive control over your tendonial, muscular, skeletal structure and it ends there, though of course still achieve a strong measure of physical power, but it remains "external" which gives you the so-called "whipping" power in your technique.

No way am I saying that one is superior to the other, for this external 'whipping' power can floor many a Tai Chi master. But under certain circumstances, the ability to apply "soft tensive power" has it's uses, and of course when you get to 50 years old or more, this soft tensive power is all you have, which accounts for stories of oldmen giving a good account of themselves.

Still on the subject of the martial application of the mental side of IMA, I'll just touch on the subsidiary issue of the so-called "iron shirt" training. This will partly answer the perenial question "what or what else can you do with "Chi?"

This part of training can be found in the external and internal systems, depending on which system you happen to be taught and so may be biased towards one or the other in a discussion. The external ones can be seen in the shaolin monks (called oxymoronically "hard chi gung") and are similar to the Okinawan systems. As we are talking about the internal art, lets concentrate on this.

The "wave" motion mentioned above when "not in motion", by this I mean you consciously stop it and let it remain in one spot of the body as a 'static spiral' meaning it is spiralling but not going anywhere (I am inventing terms as I go along because when training no terms are mentioned, it was just do it like this and it happens; not so simple of course as it is part of a long process of step-by-step training to reach this stage)

This static spiral when concentrated on a specific SLIGHTLY tensed part of the body, over time, has the built-up effect of hardening the muscles there it, (WITHOUT any corresponding increase in muscular size/mass) but with the advantage of not having to do the vein-popping tensive excersizes and hard body slapping and hitting and weight training of the external systems. Without any massive gain in bulky muscle mass will also give you a certain "tai chi grace and smoothness" and yet with a visible sense of power in your movements and technique and still can take some blunt trauma while appearing quite relaxed. Some years ago, it was reported that Russian/Soviet olympic athletes were applying mild electrical shocks to their hand and leg muscles to strengthen them without having to do intensive weight training, which for certain sporting events is more of a hindrance. In the case of the IMA, it is done mentally.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/09/07 04:36 AM

I'm pretty average... in height that is. (Thought I'd clarify that bit... in case... ) :P

IYO, BP... would it be fair to say that "mentally willing forces" is what distinguishes IMA from EMA?

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/09/07 08:26 AM

"mentally willing forces"

This is where you may get some disagreement from the external people (actually in a sense we all are) because their training obviuosly cannot be devoid of any 'mental' element in the sense that 'thinking' and the concomitant element of "will" cannot be a monopoly of anybody and also if "force" is any physical impact resultant upon meeting resistance, then this is common to all as well.

What you have to show to distinquish between the two is that in the internal systems, the "force" we are talking about is not a physical force, but a "mentally willed" or generated "wave" of energy that spreads itself into the tendons, muscles and skeletal structure and when this force, which obviously cannot have an independant existence, but harmonises (the best word I can think of) itself with the visible movement of the physical body, that we can say that the internal element of a martial art system is present. That's why Hsing Yi Chuan and Yi Chuan called themselves by the gradiose name of "mental/mind boxing" to indicate the crucial role the mind play in the generation of internal power, not "boxing with the mind"

I suppose the ancient Chinese have no better word than "chi" (in this sense meaning "breath") to express this 'force' because of all the extensive breathing exercizes involved (and also coinciding, whether by design or not, with the Indian root word 'prana' which also have the yogic meaning of breath; who knows what kind of cross-cultural contact and transmission of esoteric knowledge took place between these two very ancient civilisations who are close geographical neighbors) and using these breath-exercizes to generate this "internal force" I really can't blame them because it really does feel as though the "breath" is moving around the body when taken in by the mouth and into the lungs. What else could they have called it all those centuries ago? --- a bio-electromagnetic wave?

What fascinates me is not what it's called, but how the ancient Indians and Chinese and perhaps other equally ancient civilisations came upon it. It does not occur naturally as an in-born human trait (though it must be present in all of us at the moment of conception) like the sense of smell for instance, but requires structured training over a period of time to consciously make contact with it and control it for various purposes, and IMA is just but one of the purposes. Even now tell a person, no matter how intelligent, now go and train and acquire this energy without any guidance given; he doesn't know where to start and even if he makes a best guess, he has no idea whether it will lead him in the right direction because of the time-period involved. Just like Isaac Newton (pay some homage to the man since his Laws were mentioned in this thread) who had to invent calculus in order to make sense of the maths involved.

Posted by: Reiki

Chi - 11/09/07 04:39 PM

Here's a thought for you all to ponder

If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi - 11/09/07 06:35 PM

My boyhood dream was to become an astronaut. I just need a spaceship with sufficient warp capability to get me there.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi - 11/10/07 03:57 AM

Quote:

Here's a thought for you all to ponder

If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there?

If you don't know where you're going, you must be there.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chi - 11/10/07 04:15 AM

somewhere between this:

"wherever you go, there you are."

and this:

"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time."

...lays the truth.

(quotes by Steven Wright (Boston Comedian))

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi - 11/10/07 07:52 AM

Quote:

My boyhood dream was to become an astronaut.

You mean the word 'astronaut' was in common use when you were a boy?

Reiki,

If we know where we are going, we may not even start the journey.

Posted by: Reiki

Re: Chi - 11/10/07 09:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My boyhood dream was to become an astronaut.

You mean the word 'astronaut' was in common use when you were a boy?

Reiki,

If we know where we are going, we may not even start the journey.

ah, but we can't resist making that journey can we?

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chi - 11/11/07 10:03 AM

[quote[ ah, but we can't resist making that journey can we?

Ah, now we know why Eve was so easily tempted.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/19/07 01:09 AM

Quote:

No way am I saying that one is superior to the other, for this external 'whipping' power can floor many a Tai Chi master. But under certain circumstances, the ability to apply "soft tensive power" has it's uses, and of course when you get to 50 years old or more, this soft tensive power is all you have, which accounts for stories of oldmen giving a good account of themselves.

Judes thoughts.
From a students view.
I dont believe that on reaching 50 that is all a person can have.
For the average person who hasnt/doesnt train this might be the case but judging by the some of the older guys on okinawa 65 to 79 years old?
Who have trained ( and are still training) in what I think you refer to as external methods they still have it.

79 Years old? Still doing the same kind of body conditioning as some 25 year old who does the same training.
He takes part in the vein popping , weigth training ,being physicaly hit, and so called hyperventilated breathing as some one used on here to describe it.
79 years old!!

The thing is his training can also be proven( apart from making a journey to Okinawa) because its on video.
Google or You tube.

I dont understand the internal system. I would like to.
The only thing I am grasping is it starts with the mind
(Yes I can see that, and I could do with some of it)
There is a use of isometric/ static muscle contraction.
Some of IMA guys I have observed seem to do some form of progressive "weigth training"

Quote:

The "wave" motion mentioned above when "not in motion", by this I mean you consciously stop it and let it remain in one spot of the body as a 'static spiral' meaning it is spiralling but not going anywhere (I am inventing terms as I go along because when training no terms are mentioned, it was just do it like this and it happens; not so simple of course as it is part of a long process of step-by-step training to reach this stage)

This static spiral when concentrated on a specific SLIGHTLY tensed part of the body, over time, has the built-up effect of hardening the muscles there it, (WITHOUT any corresponding increase in muscular size/mass) but with the advantage of not having to do the vein-popping tensive excersizes and hard body slapping and hitting and weight training of the external systems. Without any massive gain in bulky muscle mass will also give you a certain "tai chi grace and smoothness" and yet with a visible sense of power in your movements and technique and still can take some blunt trauma while appearing quite relaxed. Some years ago, it was reported that Russian/Soviet olympic athletes were applying mild electrical shocks to their hand and leg muscles to strengthen them without having to do intensive weight training, which for certain sporting events is more of a hindrance. In the case of the IMA, it is done mentally.

I cant get your point on weigth training being a hinderance?
For which sport is it a hinderance?
I think what your refering to keeps reminding me of isometric training.

Qoutes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_exercise

Isometrics are thousands of years old and examples can be found in the static holds in certain branches of yoga or Chinese martial arts.

End of quotes

It is one way of training. Fine, it has its uses.It can be( and indeed is to a lesser degree) incorperated to a greater degree in to the vein popping
method. But a person is never going to be able to use 160 kg free weigth on the bench or lift everday heavy objects just using isometric alone.It has to be incorperated.

Quote

Generally speaking however, people who train isometrically don't train through a full range of motion as the strength gained at the training joint angle is where they require it. Interestingly, a study has shown that while dynamic exercises are 5% better at enhancing the twitch force of a muscle than isometric exercises, isometrics are 32% better than dynamic exercises at increasing maximal muscle power.
End of quote.

Russian atheletes were thought to be very much in to drug use e.g steriods, bone growth restriction, etc win at all costs, so I tend to take their findings with a pinch of salt.

Jude

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/19/07 03:26 AM

From my observations, there are a few very naturally talented people who are able to continue hard external training late in life. most people give up in their '40's and those that last into their '50's usually have to adjust their training and old injuries often take their toll (as we discussed earlier I've had both knees replaced). I'm 57 and can usually keep up with the youngsters but with more use of skill to make up for other losses.

IMO the softer and more skillful arts are of great benefit to older people and those that are not natural athletes.

Tai Chi has it's own form of training that eliminates the need for weights, dynamic pushing aligns and pumps the body and weapons add a martial form of extra loading to the body.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/19/07 04:20 AM

Quote:

From my observations, there are a few very naturally talented people who are able to continue hard external training late in life. most people give up in their '40's and those that last into their '50's usually have to adjust their training and old injuries often take their toll (as we discussed earlier I've had both knees replaced). I'm 57 and can usually keep up with the youngsters but with more use of skill to make up for other losses.

IMO the softer and more skillful arts are of great benefit to older people and those that are not natural athletes.

Tai Chi has it's own form of training that eliminates the need for weights, dynamic pushing aligns and pumps the body and weapons add a martial form of extra loading to the body.

This might turn in to a touchy conversation with some people.

I hope it doesnt.

Hi.
I doubt if the need of weight training/ full motion restistance training can be eliminated if a person wishes to be still training hard late on in life.

But I can see your valid points.

From my experience people who use weight training and keep an eye on their diet can still train hard even at 65.

Charles Atlas died at the age of 72 jogging on the beach.
His heart gave out. He was still training right up untill his death.

There has been experiments on muscle degeneration

One school of thought says that the formation of the molecule ADP is lacking in people as they get older.
This might be through diat/or lack of food absorbtion.

The diat in okinawa is different.
They seem to live longer and train longer.

Joints, connective tissue, bones ditto.
Seems like further research is required.

Yes there will be a market for IMA in the older generation.
That doesnt change what I observe though.

Jude

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/19/07 04:31 AM

Breathwork (i.e. qigong) IS a form of "weight" training - without the weights. Working with "long" weapons - like a bo, or anything longer around 8-9ft is also a form of weight training. Same with stretching (as in yoga), twisting, winding, spiraling , reeling silk.

These are things one can do well into their old age. BTW, there's a video of an older Ueshiba floating around on YouTube doing the "jo trick" - which is a demo of ki/qi strength. And it's not as easy as he makes it look... :eek:

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/19/07 05:08 AM

Hi

Wrong he ( Charles Atlas) was 79 years old

Charles Atlas at 76.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

Jude

Posted by: trevek

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/21/07 06:37 AM

Charles Atlas acted against advice. He was recovering from a heart attack but continued to train.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/21/07 11:17 AM

Quote:

Charles Atlas acted against advice. He was recovering from a heart attack but continued to train.

At 79 years old?
Good on him.
If I go then that is the way to go. Right after completing reps with a 160kg bench press (free weight) or sprinting on a beach. Another way I might consider going is perhaps when I am 79 years old being caught by a 25 year old man because I had been with his 25 year old girl friend .
There again I might win?

Cant see the point in lingering around waiting somehow.

Jude

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/21/07 04:38 PM

Hello Butterflypalm:

Wanted to send a PM to you but your mailbox will not accept any messages. Please contact me, when you have a moment.

Jeff

Posted by: trevek

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/22/07 04:43 PM

Bossman, although I've nowhere near your experience, I've found that somehow I can often do as much as the young-pups through energy conservation. Was doing TKD a few months back and found I could run as much (although I'm hellishly unfit these days) throgh using different body mechanisms and softer techniques (as in internal).

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/22/07 05:06 PM

Exactly trevek - it's all about optimum use of the body.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/22/07 05:08 PM

my main question is, why did it take me so long, and a knackered back, to learn about it?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/22/07 05:25 PM

The thing about injuries is that it forces you to find the optimum way to use your body because you can no longer use it the way you would "normally" use it. IOW, you compensate due to injury... sometimes in better ways, but usually not.

The trick is learning how to use it optimally, without having an injury to tell you that you're not moving optimally.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/22/07 06:09 PM

Quote:

Was doing TKD a few months back and found I could run as much (although I'm hellishly unfit these days) throgh using different body mechanisms and softer techniques (as in internal).

Hi
How ?. As in using the shoulders to aid momentum to the legs?
How can you run internal?
Its not like the description of walking in bagau is it?

Jude
With a remote feeling this might be confusing.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/23/07 03:02 AM

Hi Jude

I spend a long time teaching people how to stand, then walk and then run so that they are practicing the 'internal' side of the MA 24/7. It would take an article to begin to describe it - but as I'm due to write one this w/e - you've chosen my subject for me - so I'll post it here as soon as it's written.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/23/07 01:27 PM

While I think of it - a funny story. My wife arranged a meal at the home of one of her friends a few years ago whose partner was a 3rd Dan kickboxer in his early twenties. When we arrived this guy was literally fizzing with fitness and his martial art. During the meal he said to me "let's face it, tai chi is alright but if I really went for you - it wouldn't work would it?"

I let that and the following jibes pass - I had come out to have a meal and a pleasant time, but he wouldn't let go. So as we got up from the meal I looked at him, he was strong and muscular but had no inner body awareness, his head wasn't aligned properly, his chest was 'puffed out' disconnecting upper and lower body, his bodyweight was in his joints as opposed to the muscles and tendons and his weight was on his heels.

So I said "okay - go for it".

He said "what?"

I said "do it - do whatever you would do do to 'go fo me'"

He was suprised which made him a little unsure and then as he went to move I stuck my index finger on his chest so that he couldn't get his weight into his feet to move forward. He hovered, but couldn't get his balance, suddenly a grin spread over his face and he said "I can't move".

"I said "that's how tai chi works"...

I just remembered that reading this thread... I've still to write the article but just knowing how stand and walk is vital in tai chi, as a kickboxer he only thought in terms of fighting stance, guard and then fitness etc...

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/23/07 07:35 PM

Thanks for the funny story Bossman... the problem is people won't believe until they feel it. When they cannot move their feet, transfer weight, generate power or move to hit you, and they don't know how you've robbed them of their power, it is both enlightening and humbling at the same time (for them).

Looking forward to your article.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/23/07 09:30 PM

Quote:

Hi Jude

I spend a long time teaching people how to stand, then walk and then run so that they are practicing the 'internal' side of the MA 24/7. It would take an article to begin to describe it - but as I'm due to write one this w/e - you've chosen my subject for me - so I'll post it here as soon as it's written. [/quote)

......
Nice

Posted by: trevek

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/24/07 08:11 AM

Jude, to be honest, I don't know. Over the last few years I've also done things like traditional Polish dancing where I had to retrain my body, as the TKD body I had interfered with the dancing (I would spring to high in polkas and lose the beat!).

I think it has something to do with lowering my centre of balance. I have also unconsciously changed my running technique in that I no longer take the long strides which I used to, I take smaller, more rapid steps but more generated from the waist (I think). Funnily enough, I noticed when running with some Chinese actors that this was the kind of thing they did (in contrast to my 'western' striding run).

Don't know if this helps answer the question.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/24/07 12:33 PM

cool story, Bossman. I also heard about the guy who told his TC counterpart "Nothing can stop my side-kick". To prove it he let fly with one. The TC guy swivelled his hips and the kick missed... "Nothing!"

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/24/07 01:05 PM

Quote:

Jude, to be honest, I don't know. Over the last few years I've also done things like traditional Polish dancing where I had to retrain my body, as the TKD body I had interfered with the dancing (I would spring to high in polkas and lose the beat!).

I should imagine that would have created problems. Could it be said that any sudden rise would go down well with the female dancing partners?

Quote:

I think it has something to do with lowering my centre of balance. I have also unconsciously changed my running technique in that I no longer take the long strides which I used to, I take smaller, more rapid steps but more generated from the waist (I think). Funnily enough, I noticed when running with some Chinese actors that this was the kind of thing they did (in contrast to my 'western' striding run).

I wouldnt be to sure how I actualy run as in longer slower running. When I do sprint I run like I run. I have watched coaches saying not to use the shoulders. I do use the shoulders. I do try and lift my knees higher. Point of contact is the front part of my foot. I am going to have to study some sprinters.

Quote:

Don't know if this helps answer the question.

I believe in training the body to its best use. Surely this will differ depending on peoples different bone lengths?
Some one who is tall with long legs will be have a different technique than someone who is shorter?

Or maybe not?

Jude

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/24/07 05:39 PM

Quote:

Hi Jude

I spend a long time teaching people how to stand, then walk and then run so that they are practicing the 'internal' side of the MA 24/7. It would take an article to begin to describe it - but as I'm due to write one this w/e - you've chosen my subject for me - so I'll post it here as soon as it's written.

And here's the first draft....

Quote:

“Tonight, I’m going to teach you how to stand, walk and then run,” sifu waited for the statement to sink in.

“Well excuse me sifu, I’ve only been practising that for the last 24 years,” said Jamie with an air of mock sarcasm.

“And you’re not very good at it, are you….” Sifu answered with a statement more than a question. “This is the problem, standing, walking and running are everyday uses of the human body, when we can do this skilfully, we are practicing our martial arts all of the time – and importantly, improving our health and vigour. If we perform these functions mindlessly, then we are unskilful more than we are skilful, this is going to make learning martial arts hard work. A couple of hours a week learning to move skilfully and then 166 hours a week standing, walking, running, sitting and laying unskilfully will tip the balance towards the unskilful favour every time…”

“I never looked at it that way,” Jamie said thoughtfully.

“If you can’t stand properly, how the hell can you expect to do any martial arts with any level of skill asked sifu?”

“That’s true – let’s get it on” exclaimed Jamie with great enthusiasm.

“Okay everyone, face the direction you feel ‘drawn’ to and stand naturally with your feet in line with your shoulders, feeling all the surface of your feet on the floor, be aware of the arch of each foot and the power point at the rear centre of the arch and the kidney point at the front centre. When we are ‘standing’ and not becoming active, we want to ‘open the gates’ and allow energy to flow naturally through the body utilising its own intelligence without any interference from our mind, so for this purpose we stand on the ‘top’ of the arches so as to not activate anything through the feet.

As we press from the feet to make our body fully upright, stretch the spine upwards - as if being pulled up by a rope attached to the crown of the head. Open the gap at the base of the skull by tucking the chin in and pulling the head upwards. Whilst standing tall with your bones, soften the tissue covering the structure so it ‘hangs’ on an upright skeleton.

Now join the governor and conception vessels at the top end by placing the tongue to the top palette just behind the teeth and gently press. Join them at the bottom by using the ‘zip and tuck’ method – as if trying to zip yourself into a tight pair of jeans, pull your lower abdomen in and upwards.

Sink and hollow the chest by releasing tension, there are five stages of ‘letting go’ that will eventually connect that point to the feet. This also opens the back, enabling the shoulder blades to be pulled apart and slightly down. Breathe from the stomach and feel as if you are filling the stomach with air and then the back by ‘flaring’ the lat muscles.

Sink your bodyweight into the muscles and tendons as opposed to the joints by releasing the ankles, knees, hips and chest. Sense which side of the body is yin and which is yang in the equally weighted posture.

Now we use the ‘standing posture’ to increase our sensitivity.

Close your eyes if you feel comfortable, or just let them drift out of focus, this will help you to focus on your other senses. The classics say there must be ‘activity within inactivity’ and ‘inactivity within activity’. Sharpen your other senses and feel the location of everything and everyone around you, increasing your depth of perception and hearing the sounds and feeling all movement that you would otherwise not sense.

Increasing sensitivity is the key. Feel as if all your energy is bought to the skin increasing its sensitivity and feel as if someone touched you they would get an electric shock.

Your mind is like sandpaper, in everyday life it is coarse and only picks up on the necessary stimulus for you to carry out mundane tasks or deal with an emergency, everything else gets screened out, so like the sandpaper we need to gradually make it finer. Your ‘activity in inactivity’ here is to sharpen your senses and be able to pick up on the signs that everybody else misses.”

“But you can’t walk with that kind of mind can you”, asked Jamie?

“Not exactly, but you can have all your senses sharpened for everyday life”, answered sifu. “But let’s get on to walking…

To create motion, direct your bodyweight at an angle of 45 degrees backwards into the previously mentioned ‘power point’ ‘zip and tuck’ and sink the chest to roll the ribcage down creating a pump in the waist, pulse from power point to the kidney point the yin foot taking the head to the yang foot and weighting it, with the waist spiralling around to unpeel the yin foot off the floor. The foot comes off the floor with a final pulse and slight ‘flinch’ to ensure that it is fully empty and light in movement. The step forward feels like something being thrown off a spiral into a straight line. As you walk slightly swing your arms in the same order as a soldier would when marching, leading to the spiralling motion of the waist and the slight turn of the head into each foot.

This way, the entire internal system is being ‘pumped’ with each step and you are using the same stepping motion that you use in your martial arts. You will also become more internally sensitive as time goes by and be constantly developing your power sources and awareness..”

The students had been following sifu’s instructions and were now walking around the kwoon, almost like prisoners in a prison yard.

“All you need now sifu is the mirrored sunglasses and shotgun!” Jamie just couldn’t resist the analogy.

“Okay guys now to run, speed the process so that the pulse from the feet is driving the head forward and the head leads the body, use the waist to pump the legs.

No problem….”

“This is nothing like I was doing before,” exclaimed Jamie.

“Absolutely” replied sifu – “now you can adapt tai chi to every movement you make in life and be training all the time as you move, stand and then apply it to sitting and lying, the four positions the Buddha recommended for meditation - meaning you should be mindful all of the time…”

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/24/07 08:12 PM

Hi

Is this the simple version?

Just kidding.

Fine

Following everything.

Jude

Awaiting the next instalment.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/24/07 09:53 PM

How does this thread manage to not get locked up? Do we have mods who are chi junkies or something? Seriously! What gives here?

Sort of tells you about the state of this site when the largest thread has to do with freakin CHI: shoes and metal parts!

People, get lives. Actually train. Do something. Get in touch with the Amazing Randi. Anything.

Posted by: Bossman

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/25/07 02:23 AM

Shows the diversity of the MA John, shame tolerance only goes one way isn't it?

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/25/07 05:30 AM

Quote:

How does this thread manage to not get locked up? Do we have mods who are chi junkies or something? Seriously! What gives here?

Sort of tells you about the state of this site when the largest thread has to do with freakin CHI: shoes and metal parts!

People, get lives. Actually train. Do something. Get in touch with the Amazing Randi. Anything.

Do train John.
Train hard. I would like it to be harder but need to recover sometimes.
But I think the correct body alignment is important
for maximum power?

I also think the use of the waist/hips for power is neglected in running leading to lactic acid build up in the calfs.

From what I see the greco roman wrestlers get good power in their throws/supplex? when their body is in the correct alignment for the throw?.

This more than likely applies to running? Some coaches say to sprint without using shoulders for momentum.
I find using the momentum from the shoulders I can sprint faster. I find on doing longer runs massive lactic acid build up in the calfs. This means I am finding it hard to get my goal.

Can I ask about your thoughts on sprinting, running and lactic acid build up in the calfs? Techniques in running?
My goal is a mile and a half running in under 11 minutes on the longer runs.

That is what bossman is discussing. Body alignment for Running. It might lead to more productive training.

Jude

Posted by: trevek

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 11/25/07 11:51 AM

Quote:

Could it be said that any sudden rise would go down well with the female dancing partners?

depends where the rise is and how close the dance partner is

Posted by: jude33

Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts - 12/04/07 10:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Could it be said that any sudden rise would go down well with the female dancing partners?

depends where the rise is and how close the dance partner is

Well actualy I meant a rise in the body heat.

Just an update. tried incorperating some of the things Bossman stated. The physical things. Lactic acid seems to be less. I can feel the ache more in my legs than my calfs.
Seem to be using more of my body on longer runs.

Early days yet.

Just a quick question. Seeing as this is IMA's therefore bagau , tai chi etc .
There are some parrellel lines with other arts.
Anybody wish to discuss them?

I would start a new thread but I am not realy sure how to.

Jude

Chi:Shoes & Metal parts