Help with Qi/Ki........

Posted by: Kage_Meijin

Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/18/07 12:34 AM

Hello. Like a previous post by a boy of my same age, I would like to get as much information about feeling ki and chanelling it as possible. I do not have any childish thoughts about using my energy as a weapon, I just would like to learn how to be in-tune to it. I have already done some intense rsearch on the matter and I am also involved in Aikido (which involves ki a lot). I have been an Aikidoka for about 6 months and have attained the rank of 5th kyu. Although my sempai and sensei have given me advice about chanelling ki and them including it in their lessons, I still am not able to feel my ki or chanel it. Any information oabout this topic and/or relating to it will be welcome. Thankyou for your responses.
Posted by: laf7773

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/18/07 02:33 AM

Be patient, things take a bit more than 6 months to develope and understand. I'm sure your instructors are providing information proper for your level of training. It's not always a good idea to "jump the gun" when it comes to training. Curiosity is normal but there is a reason for having a teacher, they have already "been there" and can guide you through your training properly without getting too far ahead. Take your time, you have a life of training ahead of you.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/18/07 03:33 AM

A good start would be to ask your sensei... what should you be feeling? How would you know if you are channeling ki?
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/18/07 10:04 AM

Ask your sensei, and try to understand yourself in the process. If you're looking for written help, the information is going to be hidden in everything written about ki.

Here's my attempt to describe it...
http://groups.msn.com/MunenMusoRyuJujits...448860772859201

Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/18/07 12:29 PM

Welcome Kage_Meijin,

As the others that posted before me said, you need to ask your teacher your questions about qi and how it relates to what you are doing. You teacher should be your best resourse when trying to gain knowledge about qi and how it relates to the particular art you study.
The more I train in Bagua and Qigong the more I feel I understand about qi and how it relates to what I do. However, we do not do the same things so it may be difficult to understand each others conception of qi, what it is and how it works.
Quote:

I just would like to learn how to be in-tune to it



The best way to get on track with this is to ask your teacher and be patient. Do not look for immediate results. Internal arts and qi related exercises etc. are not things that give immediate results especially in regards to how energy is felt, stored, and expressed. It takes a good deal of time to condition the body and mind so that they are in-tune with qi.
The best advice I ever received about feeling qi and gaining a better understanding of it was to be patient and train as much as possible. Do not be greedy for results. Have your teacher explain what to look for, train they way they instruct you to, but do not try and CREATE feelings. They are something that have to happen on their own through diligent practice.
Posted by: Kage_Meijin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/19/07 01:24 AM

Thankyou for your input. My sensei only teaches the advanced classes at our dojo and is often out of town. I only attend the general and beginner classes so I rarely speak to her and don't have a good relationship with her. I was wondering if I might be able to acquire some information here to help me practice until I gain a higher rank and am able to speak to my sensei about it. By the way, my sensei's name is Bernice Tom,6th dan. She was awarded with a scroll signifying that she was best in the world with the Jo and Bokken (for aikido that is).
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/19/07 04:30 AM

Ask the senior instructor... if they don't know keep asking until someone does...

PS: You might have to ask OUTSIDE of your dojo as a last resort.
Posted by: laf7773

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/19/07 05:00 AM

When it comes to energy work it's not always a good idea to try and "jump ahead". It's rare for a "good" instructor to tell you what feelings to look for, kinda defeats the purpose. Your recognition of certain feelings on your own without knowing what to look for is one gauge your instructor might look for to determine your progress. I'd suggest not worrying too much about it and just take in what you are being taught for the moment. Things will start to unfold to you on their own in time. Ki is only one aspect of aikido or any other art, the mechanics are just as if not more important.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/19/07 07:24 PM

Whoever's teaching your classes probably needs to be your contact then. Being a 20 year player in Aikido, I would suggest that you work on body mechanics and blending, so that your ki applications are effective. Once you do that, you'll find that you are using your ki more effectively than you realize. Lots of kokyu ho practice will help as well.

When my students have problems with Aikido or jujutsu, I just tell them to "relax harder"...

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/19/07 08:01 PM

Quote:

Lots of kokyu ho practice will help as well.




True.... but there's a right way and wrong way to practice kokyu ho.... I'm willing to bet most people are doing it wrong.... so no amount of practice is going to help if he's doing it wrong.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/19/07 09:40 PM

Can you describe what kokyu ho is.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/19/07 10:41 PM

I'll go u one better... here's a pic form Karl Friday's book.
http://neijia.com/KokyuHo.jpg

Also variously called reiki-no-ho and more accurately kokyu-tanden-ho.

Basically, the idea is to use your dantien/tanden to come under the person's power. Essentially, the same idea with all internal skills... fang sung, use the dantien, use the ground, use the mind to will the force (yes, Luke, use the Force), use the breath to augment etc. etc. etc.
Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/20/07 03:42 PM

^ I call that a seated powerclean Okay, that's a little different...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/21/07 07:46 AM

or is that more an exercise of leveraging with a cooperating partner who maintains a wrist-grab in order to complete the waza? kidding

there's a simplier and less etherial way of thinking about kokyu-ho that spans breathing principles from all fighting Arts: inhale when receiving momentum, exhale when transmitting it.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/21/07 09:13 AM

Thanks for the link.
So would you say that this is using your center of gravity to get under the persons base of power and break their root?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/21/07 06:27 PM

Ed,

Synchronizing the breath cycle with the movement has little to do with it. You can be holding your breath and still make it work.

Chris,

Think of it this way.... the triangular base of the seated posture provides 3 points (knees and feet) and 2 edges (shins) of contact with the ground. Force acting on the structure is directed to the ground and bounced back - internally - thru your structure into their structure. Changing the vector of the GRF is what causes the other person to uproot...all by themselves.

So the harder they push, the more they uproot themselves - depending on how well you can hold your structure and redirect the GRF thru the holes in their structure.

So, no, Ed, you don't need a cooperative uke to do this, although having one in the early learning stages helps.... simply because the opposite is also true. Even if I as uke am grabbing, if I can find a path vector under your power to your "holes", I can easily uproot you.

Sometimes, there is a pin/hold down at the end when you uproot the other person.... if you lose the connection with the ground whilst pinning, or cannot maintain your structure and the ground path, the person being pinned on the ground can also uproot you - if they know how.

Does that make sense?

So what does this have to do with qi/ki? I'll let you guys figure that one out...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/21/07 09:08 PM

Quote:

the triangular base of the seated posture provides 3 points (knees and feet) and 2 edges (shins) of contact with the ground. Force acting on the structure is directed to the ground and bounced back - internally - thru your structure into their structure. Changing the vector of the GRF is what causes the other person to uproot...all by themselves.



ie. 'leveraging'.

if someone can hold their breath and do this as you say - then an equal argument is saying someone can do this technique without concepts such as 'ki'....but if it's conveinent to do so, why not.

receive/inhale/float - whatever term you like for softening or redirecting the attackers incoming momentum (or vectors). transmit/exhale/sink - or whichever term for projecting your momentum or vectors. Both using angles, timing, 'loose' structure, and a host of subtlties that are impossible to get with words and only can be understood by feel. all of those things aren't separate.


Ki is the balanced manipulation of momentum and force vectors....one part of doing that is with breathing - along with a thousand other things that don't amount to much just reading about it.

but knowing me, I probably have it all wrong - so it's better to stick to what each of our sensei teaches.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/21/07 10:28 PM

Quote:

ie. 'leveraging'.




Oh, I get it... you mean 'leveraging' as in borrowing 'energy' as leverage, rather than in the sense of fulcrums and levers...

Quote:

if someone can hold their breath and do this as you say - then an equal argument is saying someone can do this technique without concepts such as 'ki'....but if it's conveinent to do so, why not.




I prefer the Force(TM) myself... but yeah... Luke... woteva

Quote:

receive/inhale/float - whatever term you like for softening or redirecting the attackers incoming momentum (or vectors). transmit/exhale/sink - or whichever term for projecting your momentum or vectors. Both using angles, timing, 'loose' structure, and a host of subtlties that are impossible to get with words and only can be understood by feel. all of those things aren't separate.




All of which are additive and adjuncts... to the basic mechanics... see Lane's post and Grady's post. And yes, you have to FEEL it... understanding what you feel is an entirely different matter though...

Quote:

Ki is the balanced manipulation of momentum and force vectors....one part of doing that is with breathing - along with a thousand other things that don't amount to much just reading about it.




One reason I don't like using the word qi/ki is because it is too nebulous and broad as a descriptive term for what we're talking about. "Energetics" might be a closer term, but again, it's too nebulous for me. Force - not THE Force(TM) - and vectors OTOH, is far more concrete... to get your head around the basic idea.

Bottom line, the basic principles are the same. The variations are simply a "preferred" way to do it... if you like.

So, yeah... just keep doing what your sensei says.... hence my initial response... ask your sensei.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/22/07 09:41 AM

If it's not too much of a derail, I found this video pretty interesting (the top/down camera shots of body movement):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y8XMWG4Leo

Shimada sensei states that "Ritsuzen (standing meditation) is 80% on the inside and 20% on the outside."
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/22/07 06:38 PM

I dunno harlan.... I feel Shimada is... TOO "external". For comparison, have a look at this video and tell me what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&mode=related&search=

And while you're at it, you might want to casually ask your teacher about Toumei na Chikara...
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/22/07 07:23 PM

Well, my problem is like all newbies: have to see it first. Your video leaves me clueless...another old guy with a baggy shirt. For all I know his students are faking it...because video is a poor medium and doesn't capture it.

Shimada at least gets the mental gears working in a certain direction.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/22/07 08:26 PM

And my point is, even if you DO see it, what CAN you REALLY see? IF it's happening *internally*... HOW can you??? Noob or otherwise....???

Hence my point... regarding asking the teacher... this stuff has to be FELT. Seeing is one thing. Feeling it done to you is another.

And, no, I don't think his students are faking it.

Toumei na Chikara... or what the Chinese IMA calls 'hidden power' (an jing), except this dude is at the next level up of what's called 'mysterious power' (hua jing).

Shimada...?? I would call that 'obvious power' (ming jing)... the *lowest* level of what I'm talking about...

But I guess we all gotta start *somewhere*....
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/22/07 10:43 PM

sorry, not buying the video eyrie. I know I'm over-critical, but you gotta be brain-dead (or brain-washed) to watch that with a believing eye that it wasn't exagurated on the uke's part. respect is a powerful thing. they showed respect by over-reacting to satisfy what the old man was showing is effective. maybe not scripted, but over-dramatized...and they probably would have reacted the same way without knowing there was a camera.

How do I know? I don't. opinions are wonderful things aren't they

There are two separate things going on: what people believe is possible and what is actually possible.

I have no interest (other than intellectually) in what people believe is possible. people can do incredible things when they believe something....question is, will it work on the non-vested attacker that doesn't believe in it?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/22/07 11:09 PM

Probably both Ed... brain dead AND brainwashed... OR maybe you need to examine YOUR own beliefs and perceptions about your preconceived notions of "effectiveness", physical limitations... and perhaps contemplate what true human potential could entail.

Perhaps, lots of things defy explanation, and many people believed certain things were improbable and impossible... like... flying (from da Vinci to the Wrights), much less flying to the moon, or that the Earth is not flat and revolves around the Sun.

But hey, whether you believe or don't believe is up to you.... and better if you don't. If you are happy with whatever level of accomplishment you're at, then more power to you.

Me? At least I have something higher to aim for... and if I miss, well so what?

BTW, have you gone to see Dan yet???? Or maybe you're just happy not venturing out of your own comfortable little box?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/23/07 12:09 AM

It would be too easy to counter those attempted jabs....but who wants to make it personal?

my own fault. you'd think I'd learn that when topics go over people's heads (including and especially mine) it leads to trading less and less subtle digs....probably due to the evasive and interpretive nature of the subject.

but whats this verbal sparring say about each other's understanding of Ki? I'll let YOU figure it out.

I stand with my original interpretation for the thread-bearer: Ki is the manipulation of momentum and force vectors - thats all you need to know...the rest is feeling it. That study is subtle and deep enough for me. sorry if thats not etherial enough to reach the stratosphere of understanding humans are potentially capable of - but theres my down-to-earth contribution on practical Ki....the rest, I believe, is psychology.

btw, to the original question...just in case: 'honing in of ki' is not tapping into some energy source circulating in the body - it's training the efficiency of manipulating your own and your opponent's momentum and force vectors. (I say 'force vector' to distinguish it from the misinterpreted 'force' term). My opinion only: ignore the term Ki and just practice efficient movement.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/23/07 06:59 AM

No Ed, it's not personal... I'm merely suggesting that there are different "levels" of ability to manipulate forces... take it anyway you want. Open mind or closed mind... I don't really care... I think it was de Bono, not sure... minds are like parachutes.... works better opened.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/23/07 09:50 AM

true...but at the end of the day, the hardest and/or first to hit wins.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/23/07 10:10 AM

That depends on the purpose of training doesn't it?

It's a whole different way of moving. Yes, it has certain limitations, but then muscular strength is also limited.... as you get older. One of the side benefits of this type of training is that you can hit harder and take harder hits. Another is getting "stronger" as you get older...

I say "side benefits" because my primary purpose for training is not fighting, but to preserve life...

But hey, if you think you can hit faster and harder at your level of comfort, more power to you.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/23/07 10:56 AM

nah...I plan on just lifting weights into my 90's from the safety of my box. lol
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/24/07 02:29 AM

Quote:

I'm merely suggesting that there are different "levels" of ability to manipulate forces...





YIN


Quote:

Ki is the manipulation of momentum and force vectors - thats all you need to know...the rest is feeling it.





YANG
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/24/07 09:21 AM

Ed, I looked at the Shimada video and wasn't impressed, but the one that came up behind it was. It was Shioda Sensei teaching an Aikido class.

While I respect your opinion about "force vectors",etc. from lots of practice I can tell you that's not all there is to it. While we have the ability to think, we do not have a full explanation of "thinking", and ki is very similar to that. "It just 'does'..." as one teacher taught us.

The force vectors and angles of engagement have a part in it, but it's only one clue in the mystery. As Eyrie said, "it has to be felt"... JMHO.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/24/07 11:49 AM

Quote:

And, no, I don't think his students are faking it.




Those were not his students. It was more of strangers asking for a demonstration. The conversation started with the old guy saying to the guy in black, welcome, anyone can come, it makes no difference (meaning anyone can come to see me or test)

At one stage the old guy said, all I need to do is use my mind together with my body and I can direct / redirect any force. I just need to think about it. My body can redirect it anywhere. His accent was a bit unfamiliar to me and I couldn't catch everything.

At no stage, as far as this clip is concerned (which seems to continue on, ending with the old guy asking the one in black to pull his hand) was the word "chi" used. It should be interesting to see the whole clip where hopefully the old guy were to discuss some more theory or training methods.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/25/07 04:47 AM

Thanks for the translation BP...

To be honest, I couldn't catch a word of what he said... his accent was so thick (plus, it's been nearly 15-20 years since I last spoke any Mandarin).

Yes, it would've been interesting to see the rest of the video... for just that... theory and training methods. But I doubt he would have done that in a public venue and to strangers. Maybe...??
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/25/07 09:59 AM

I only watched the Shimada video half way thru and didn't comment on it.


Quote:

The force vectors and angles of engagement have a part in it, but it's only one clue in the mystery. As Eyrie said, "it has to be felt"... JMHO.





so you mean we all have the same opinion, since I wrote this a few days ago:
Quote:

....Both using angles, timing, 'loose' structure, and a host of subtlties that are impossible to get with words and only can be understood by feel.




an unlikely subject to agree on - but I think we are all saying the same thing.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/25/07 03:26 PM

It's a sure sign of the apocalypse...

Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/25/07 10:56 PM

I have to admit, the second vid looked like Pro Wrestling to me. Even if we assume his skill to be yin, then it still takes yang to produce the movement of the opponent, -that yang can be found by looking at the kid. It's not that I'm saying it's not possible for a man of his age to have developed skills like that, I'm just saying that if we recognize this due to the openess of our minds, we have to recognize every radki kid's beliefs as well. Where do we draw the line? The contact this old man made with these kids was so light, no-touch is not much of a stretch.

Look at the vid at 1:45-1:47. Watch carefully over and over again, the kid actually coiled down a tiny bit, preparing himself to jump, he lifts his right foot off the ground fist, then jumps with his left, the very last thing that happens is that he looses physical contact with the old man. What is absolutely clear, is that the power which propelled the kid was issued through his left leg. Now I can't prove that the old man didn't control the yang movement of the kid's leg without having any yang connection with the arms, and that the old man didn't prepare the kid to jump, and I can't prove that the old man didn't control the kid's mind making him jump, but what I can do is say 'prove it'. Why do I want proof? Because you made a claim, directly or indirectly. You must prove a claim before I must prove a claim wrong. That's how it's done. I know you'll have some explanation of why it's not important that you prove it to me, but then, I can come up with an explanation of why it's not important for you to post that vid.

Why bother looking at the old man to see what secret skills he is hiding when you can look at the kid and see what he's showing? The one in the black hides his movements better, but the other kid moves much different than the one in the black every time, he looks like a pro-wrestler trying to fake a head stomp. Why would the old man send one kid moving differently than the other guy consistanty like that? Couldn't it just be that they are both showing their own way of moving with their own force of movement? Seriously, the kid with the lighter colored shirt always jumps up upward and out. Why doesn't this happent to the other guy?


Sorry, I'm not buying it. I can't buy it because I don't believe that the old man would go that far out of his way to make the kid look like he is faking it.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/25/07 11:26 PM

keen observations. did you also notice the shoulders of the uke rising first? his shoulders rise at the same time as lifting the right leg, then his body contorts like it's being blown backwards and propelled by the left leg as you say. thats two different directions of reaction to a single force - up and then in....up and then in...up and then in. (lol ref: JFK movie).
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 12:01 AM

What the heck r u guys talking about? Mind posting the vid link so we can all join in?
Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 12:39 AM

Quote:

What the heck r u guys talking about? Mind posting the vid link so we can all join in?



Wow, just wow
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 01:05 AM

Quote:

I have to admit, the second vid looked like Pro Wrestling to me.




This is where I got confused... Pro Wrestling?????

Quote:

Look at the vid at 1:45-1:47. Watch carefully over and over again, the kid actually coiled down a tiny bit


Kid? What kid? Where I come from, that would be a grown man....

Quote:

I can come up with an explanation of why it's not important for you to post that vid.




If you're talking about the 94 yr old Bagua gentleman, I posted the vid - not wristtwister, whom you addressed this post to.

Maybe I'm having a really slow day... I'm not following... or hey, maybe I'm braindead... I've been accused of that too.
Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 01:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have to admit, the second vid looked like Pro Wrestling to me.




This is where I got confused... Pro Wrestling?????




Yeah, you know when they stomp their foot on the ground and pretend to hit someone?
Quote:

[
Quote:

Look at the vid at 1:45-1:47. Watch carefully over and over again, the kid actually coiled down a tiny bit


Kid? What kid? Where I come from, that would be a grown man....



He has a kiddish looking face, I figured he was in his late teens, it doesn't really matter though.

Quote:

Quote:

I can come up with an explanation of why it's not important for you to post that vid.




If you're talking about the 94 yr old Bagua gentleman, I posted the vid - not wristtwister, whom you addressed this post to.



nah, I just hit the last reply button on the last post when I was done reading the thread. I didn't realize that it addressed a specific person, I thought only the quote button would do that. My bad on that one.
Quote:


Maybe I'm having a really slow day... I'm not following... or hey, maybe I'm braindead... I've been accused of that too.



Nah, not braindead. I wasn't too clear on my post.. but plain and simple, the vid you posted isn't too convincing to me. Out of all the unlikely things people ask me to believe in, I see no reason why I should believe that this particular vid is legit, when there are far more signs as to why it's not.

Sorry about the mixup and confusion in communication. Some of that is deffinately my fault.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 03:35 AM

Quote:

I wasn't too clear on my post.. but plain and simple, the vid you posted isn't too convincing to me. Out of all the unlikely things people ask me to believe in, I see no reason why I should believe that this particular vid is legit, when there are far more signs as to why it's not.

Sorry about the mixup and confusion in communication. Some of that is deffinately my fault.




Aw, crap LW... why didn't ya just say so...

OK, so you don't believe it... that's fine. Not asking anyone to.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 07:31 AM

btw, those weren't just random uke volunteers off the street...
their website:
http://www.qigonghealingtreatment.com/

with 'disciples': http://www.qigonghealingtreatment.com/TieLao.htm



if BP's translation was correct, why did they act like they were asking for volunteers? answer: to give an impression other than what it was.

besides, what did the video have to do with healing?

what does Ki have to do with healing? if there are ever any medical studies that show a better success rate with Qi/Chi/Ki than placebo, I'd be interested in reading it and eating my words. I'd love to be shown I'm wrong.

A cottage industry as large as Qi healing practices must work since it's so wide-spread and popular...right?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 09:44 AM

Here we go round the mulberry bush
The mulberry bush, the mulberry bush
Here we go round......
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 01:18 PM

who would have thought a thread in the Internal Arts forum could be silenced with a nursery rhyme...then again, I've seen thread arguments go unanswered in the Self-Defense forum with "I know you are, but what am I."

It's an effective tactic for silencing critical thought anyway....which I can only assume is the goal.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 01:30 PM

No Ed its not critical thought...its the same old tired routine that you've been involved in many many times before. A direct quote "You have to feel it to believe!". That's it argument over. Debate over. Until you've felt it you have no basis from which to make an objective critical analysis of it. Instead of actually going out and there and trying to experience this you'll waste your time with long threads that go round in circles. This obviously interests you, otherwise you've got a lot of excess energy (pun intended! ). If its purely a intellectual interest then my friend you're wasting you time in these threads...really truly and honestly you are. If its more than that then go and train with someone who might be able to show you it...then come back and we'll have a brilliant thread!

Mary had a little lamb...
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 01:36 PM

We are attracted to the things we need to understand...even if on a subliminal level. What is the saying...'the greatest critic is the one that needs to believe.'
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 02:12 PM

Gavin,

I don't quite buy the "have to feel to believe" concept. There has to be more to it than that and a scientific explanation as well. Otherwise, you risk people believing in aliens without proof. You risk legitimizing one faith over another since of course one’s felt beliefs trump another’s.

Look at all the vague and goofy ki videos that others give as proof of someone’s abilities since their students act as wonderful acrobats to the Grand Master’s terrific, nearly-telekinetic powers. The students, I think, really believe in and feel the “power”….but persuasion and charismatic leaders can do many things when faith in that power allow the self-induced outcome. On the other hand, the proof is not only in the pudding when only specific persons eat it, its when others, including its detractors, can verify ability to do what is proposed when placed in a venue when strict application is being determined. Not just that it is felt. I am afraid this is just not good enough.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 02:18 PM

I do completely agree...but there is only so much you can put in writing...there is only so many ways to describe a tea pot, but if someone still won't take your word for it they just have to go and buy a teapot. None of our exhaustive explanations have satisfied Ed in the past...he most definitely needs to buy a tea pot now!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 03:36 PM

you aren't going to sing " I'm a little tea pot, short and stout...." are ya? lol

Gavin, I can't see where the problem is.

The 95 year old guy on the Qigong video didn't make the younger guy jump. It was fake. If that was fake, then what's the chances he heals people with his Qi?


Healing is healing - it can be scientifically shown. and with Qi healing it has been scientifically proven....it has a success rate consistant with placebo. Thats a fact my friend.

Qi as being able to throw someone into the air without moving: parlor tricks. The proof is in common sense.

despite those versions of Qi (consequently, the money making yet unprovable versions) - The term can also be used to accurately describe interaction between momentum and vector forces.

but by all means, enjoy the placebo and magical thinking.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 05:16 PM

"I'm a little tea pot short and spout!"

When you're over in the UK, I'll bring my futon...you can have a shiatsu! That'll learn ya!

"Walkie round the garden like a teddy bear!"
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 06:31 PM

lol...you've got a good humorous chi aura about you Gavin - you're good people I suspect.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 08:09 PM

.... here is my handle... here is my spout....

Quote:

I don't quite buy the "have to feel to believe" concept. There has to be more to it than that and a scientific explanation as well.




You guys need to get out more...

Quote:

Otherwise, you risk people believing in aliens without proof. You risk legitimizing one faith over another since of course one’s felt beliefs trump another’s.




It's got nothing to do with faith, beliefs, or suspending either... you really do have to feel it. Gav's right... all this armchair analysis and conjecture ain't gunna cut it... unless you've felt it - then at least you have some sort of basis for analysis, comparison and hopefully, meaningful discussion.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 08:39 PM

Eyrie,

I understand what you are getting at, except that the goal of any cyber forum is basically to list out posts and to deliver video sans the functional ability to to get the "reality" of what you are showing or explaining in person.

The problem is not with disparate ideas, but that it must be done in a place where the intellectual ability to explain and show logically what is being presented is of paramount importance, otherwise, if I had my druthers, I could walk on over to your home and bring a 18 year old single malt and we could laugh and discuss it while you "showed" me.

However, we are left in an environment where it is really necessary to try to get across as much as we can without that interaction and, in cases like me, by explaining in limited terms to the uneducated and uninitiated---or there is little merit to presenting anything.

I am trying to understand, but the just got "to feel it" approach is a bit wanting for me in the description and fucntional concept department.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 08:51 PM

Quote by Lucid Warrior -

Quote:

Why bother looking at the old man to see what secret skills he is hiding when you can look at the kid and see what he's showing?




Excellent. LW, you have truly earned your screen name here.

Quote by Eyrie -

Quote:

You guys need to get out more...




That may be true. But considering that several of us skeptics have 20+ years of training, don't you think it's likely that we would have encountered something (directly OR indirectly) that would lead us more to believe instead of not believe, by now?

And I hate to pull the UFC card here, but wouldn't MMA folks be all over this if it was possible?

I do apologize for going there. But since the chi/ki demos shown in the 94 y/o video were not deadly, I see no reason why they couldn't be used in another format.

I have yet to see anything about chi/ki that cannot be explained by synergistic movement (hip torque, body weight transfer, joint alignment, etc). Nothing magical.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 09:06 PM

Quote:

I understand what you are getting at, except that the goal of any cyber forum is basically to list out posts and to deliver video sans the functional ability to to get the "reality" of what you are showing or explaining in person.




Define "reality"? "Whose" reality? Since our respective "realities" are limited by our individual experiences, how can one not having felt it, be in a position to even comment on, much less criticize? Without the benefit of that particular experience and perception of that reality, what qualifies anyone to make such a criticism?

Quote:

The problem is not with disparate ideas, but that it must be done in a place where the intellectual ability to explain and show logically what is being presented is of paramount importance, otherwise, if I had my druthers, I could walk on over to your home and bring a 18 year old single malt and we could laugh and discuss it while you "showed" me.




So... whatya waiting for? Git yo hairy a$$ down here and that bottle of single malt and we'll intellectualize, physicalize, and then attempt to rationalize, and maybe even have a few laughs....

Quote:

However, we are left in an environment where it is really necessary to try to get across as much as we can without that interaction and, in cases like me, by explaining in limited terms to the uneducated and uninitiated---or there is little merit to presenting anything.




As I said... you need to get out more...

Quote:

I am trying to understand, but the just got "to feel it" approach is a bit wanting for me in the description and fucntional concept department.




Fine. Describe what water feels like without using the word "wet". Describe what the wind feels like in your hair... hard isn't it????
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 09:22 PM

Quote:

That may be true. But considering that several of us skeptics have 20+ years of training, don't you think it's likely that we would have encountered something (directly OR indirectly) that would lead us more to believe instead of not believe, by now?




Well, that kinda depends on how far out of your woods you're game to venture? To what extent have you sought out good IMA people???

Quote:

And I hate to pull the UFC card here, but wouldn't MMA folks be all over this if it was possible?




Who says they aren't??? I've already mentioned one name in particular to Ed... another is Rob John and a dude called Akuzawa in Tokyo that are using this stuff (albeit in a slightly different format) in an MMA venue. The fact that neither compete in UFC is irrelevant. AFAIK, Akuzawa does sanda... a Chinese equivalent of the UFC if you like - with different rules.

Quote:

I do apologize for going there. But since the chi/ki demos shown in the 94 y/o video were not deadly, I see no reason why they couldn't be used in another format.




Again.... your perception of "reality"... that it has to be "d34dly".... even in a friendly training scenario!!!!!??????

Quote:

I have yet to see anything about chi/ki that cannot be explained by synergistic movement (hip torque, body weight transfer, joint alignment, etc). Nothing magical.




Oh, that's just the "beginning" mate... as I said... there are "levels" that build off these base skills...
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 10:32 PM

Eyrie,
you and I both know that a good Yonkyo will make somebody almost jump over you, and any movie of it would look much like the old man extending ki and blowing away his "accomplice", but the guy on the receiving end of it KNOWS that something happened, and everybody else is just guessing. The issue here is really "experiencing ki"... not whether it exists or not. Experiencing is believing...

Matt contends that if he's been studying MA for over 20 years that he would have "seen or experienced" something to make him "a believer"... but I've been around in MA for 45 years in September, and seen a whole lot of things done during that period that haven't been around for the past 20, at least not in the general view of MA training... and it depends on how big your pond is as to what kind of fish you see in it.

My training partner speaking fluent Japanese and being plugged into the Japanese University system has brought me into contact with a lot of people who did amazing things, which would not be found just in having a 20 year resume of martial arts training. I've met kendo and kyudo masters that did some amazing things, along with teachers from the Kodokan, numerous karate styles, and serious zen masters, whose control of their bodies and body functions would amaze anyone.

A simple trip to see the Shaolin Monks, who travel and put on an exibition, should convince anyone that there's more to ki than just body alignment, muscle development, and "angles". If it was that simple, then why develop "breathing exercises" to build ki development? It would make more sense to do pushups and aerobics... but every ki instruction class I've ever been in focused on breathing... not all those other things. Wonder why?

The concept of ki only being focused as an offensive weapon is ridiculous. I have a number of pistols, but unless I use them with intent to be offensive with them, they are just something that shoots a bullet. Are they dangerous, yes. Can they kill... yes. Are they necessarily offensive... no. Can they be used offensively... of course.
Do I have to use one to defend myself?... not necessarily.

Everyone wants to attribute ki to some kind of magical power, but you and I both know that it's an "internal energy" that can be increased, applied, and used effectively in many different ways. It can be "directed" or "redirected" by something as simple as pointing a finger, or opening your palm... or simply using the rowing exercise to create a wave in it.

Now with 20 years experience, a good martial artist still wouldn't have a clue about what I've just discussed unless they have experienced some of it, so I would suggest that if the skeptics want to prove us wrong, go out and get the proof in the dojo. I've trained as a skeptic for many years, and don't just buy into what's said because somebody is supposed to be a master of it, but I've seen a lot of amazing things done by people who you would never expect to be able to do them. My suggestion for the skeptics out there is to "go get some"... then come back and talk about the results.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 10:40 PM

eyrie, is there a way we can pin down a quantifiable way to determine if someone is utilizing a knowledge of Ki or not? is there a quantifiable way to determine if someone was healed with Reiki methods? no there isn't. as you and Gavin say, there really is no argument....so why bother making any suggestions that physical knowledge of Ki is somehow esoteric knowledge having more to offer?

You hinted at the advanced and profound knowledge of Chi with the posting of that 95 year old Qigong teacher. contrasting it with Harlan's suggested video as if to mean your video was closer to the ideals. well, if thats true...then I'd go with Harlan's video as closer to ideal for something functional - since it's less full of BS.


how about this: I know I can break 3 non-spaced boards with a vertical 6-inch punch...did I require 'Ki' ? or did it require just learning how to punch efficiently? can you do that?

if western medicine heals with quantifiable and predictable outcome and with a much greater than placebo sucess...why would anyone seek otherwise? same with efficiency of movement - I have no problem with refering to 'it' as Ki/Chi/Qi - heck, I think it's a useful term to describe the complexities (and simplicities) of whats going on for certain body mechanics.
sure, we can think in terms of some kind of energy circulating if it helps visualize dynamics. I choose not to, but why not, some people do. but in and of itself 'Ki' is only a concept - a description of whats going on - a description of the feel.

That 'feel' can be present even in artists who never heard of the term or know about auras/chakras/chi circulation, etc. similarly, people can learn efficient power generation without understanding force vectors, center of gravity, tangental acceleration...etc - they don't need the terms - they just need the feel.

how is that possible? the 'feel' is efficient movement. anything etherial, stratospheric or ancient added to it's description only serves to sortof deceive yourself and others. you'll still get as much efficient movement as the non-Ki guy with the same dilligent practice - so it's not a self-destructive deception....but it's baggage.

To get the point across in another, more exaggurated way...how do people describe the feeling of a roller coaster: 'like butterflys in the stomach'. floating, sinking while your center of gravity gets messed with by the sudden changes in acceleration and direction. people can choose to believe actual butterflies are fluttering in their stomach...or they can choose to understand the physical forces at work. either way, it's the same effect. enjoy the ride.

p.s. since the forces are being acted upon you in a roller coaster (as oppossed to them being initiated)...would that be a sortof 'anti-Ki' ?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 10:48 PM

nowhere have I said "chi"... my Mandarin isn't totally non-existent, and from BP's account as well, neither did the old man once mention "qi". For the record, neither did any of my instructors or teacher EVER used that word...

So, I don't think it's even worthwhile justifying your post with a response.... get out of your little pond and go West young man (or East). Then having had some experience of what it feels like, come back and I'll happily discuss it in non-mystical/esoteric terms...

Until then, it's only going to be "round the mulberry bush"....
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 10:48 PM

I'll go out on a limb and guess that the only reason you or eyrie don't make a video of these abilities is because you can't do them. If you can't personally do them, then they don't exist in this thread.

can you break 3 boards with a 6inch punch? you should be able to, right? I mean since I can without using Ki.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 11:02 PM

backpeddler. no problem...there I go 'round the bush and into my pond.

btw, do you want me to find the past threads/posts where you use Ki/Chi/Qi interchangebly? and did you miss the watermark on the old gentleman's video? QIgongforhealth. suddenly in this post there is this profound difference between the terms. I see....my pond is looking better.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 11:05 PM

Crap.. I don't even know that I really have THAT much experience.... well... in real terms... or even in mat time...

I know Rob John hasn't had as much mat time as I, yet, from various accounts, he has in a very short space of time, gotten to where many who have had many more years mat time, can only dream of. So there are ways of training this stuff, in a much quicker way than simply "breathing".... which BTW, is a slow, but safe and fairly tried and true method - from India to Korea.

Yonkyo is nothing.... try nikkyo and dumping the guy straight down without even locking his wrist! I did that once to a 2 yr BJJ fella... dropped him on the spot without putting on the pain factor. His response? Don't go "easy" on him.... Well, the fact that I chose NOT to apply in a "d34dly" manner and still got him down should have had a few red lights go off.... but some people, you just have to hurt coz otherwise it's not "real"....

And when it came to his turn, he tried as much as he could to whack the same lock on me to no effect... I was just standing there letting him find it. Meanwhile, I coulda decked him a few times.... but that wasn't the point of LEARNING was it? And this guy was training for "King of the Hill"....

The fact that you can use this stuff in an offensive (or defensive) manner goes without saying. Whether you do or not is a CHOICE. I like to think I'm a good person at heart... and this type of training makes you far more "sensitive" than most people are willing to experience.

I certainly wouldn't want to have to show someone how effective this *could* be by merely "proving a point"....

You and I both know that good basic mechanics gets your foot in the door. But there's a whole another level beyond that. And another one beyond that... and another... mind body integration isn't just having "good mechanics".
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 11:22 PM

Quote:

backpeddler. no problem...there I go 'round the bush and into my pond.

btw, do you want me to find the past threads/posts where you use Ki/Chi/Qi interchangebly? and did you miss the watermark on the old gentleman's video? QIgongforhealth. suddenly in this post there is this profound difference between the terms. I see....my pond is looking better.




That's it Ed... take it out of context. Why not... you've done that time and time again.

So what if it did??? That has no bearing on what we're discussing here. And as I've already explained on the other thread that you're referencing.... qigong simply and quite literally means "breath work"....

Now here's the kicker... Systema has it's own brand of what....???? To do what...????
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 11:24 PM

your right, it isn't just efficient body mechanics. it's about being a decent person; helping others learn and helping them teach you; respect; control of fear and ego...the list goes on as far as a student is willing to find it....and in each one of those, just as the physical pursuits, breathing is a fundamental - we all have to breathe. be in control of breathing and you control your mental/physical and emotional state.

are those components of 'Ki' ? if you want them to be part of a 'Ki' definition, sure. and curiously, those components seem to become more important at points in the conversation such as this. Ki can be everything...for some 'Ki' can even be God.

like I said, if you aren't willing to nail it down...why even attempt to talk about it or bother to defend bogus demonstrations.


one last question, and as a show of respect, I'm not going to reply to your answer...the old gentleman's video: real, staged or exaggurated?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 11:29 PM

Quote:

I'll go out on a limb and guess that the only reason you or eyrie don't make a video of these abilities is because you can't do them. If you can't personally do them, then they don't exist in this thread.

can you break 3 boards with a 6inch punch? you should be able to, right? I mean since I can without using Ki.




I'm still waiting on the Sony DCRSR40 you said you were going to send me for X'mas.... that and find me a couple of guys that you know aren't going to "fake" it, and I'll send you the vid. How's that????

Or how about, you just get your fat ugly hairy butt over here and I'll learn you a thing or two?

Or alternatively, send me a plane ticket and I'm there already. Tell you what... get the rest of the guys to chip in for the ticket, and we'll have a mini-workshop/seminar.... or as many as you like... I'm yours. And I'm staying at YOUR place... no less. I promise, we'll have a load of fun....

Seriously...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 11:35 PM

no, I'm too scared. Probably better (and cheaper) just to try it and tell me if you did it or not....we'd trust ya.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/26/07 11:58 PM

so....real, staged or exaggurated?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 12:16 AM

Quote:

no, I'm too scared. Probably better (and cheaper) just to try it and tell me if you did it or not....we'd trust ya.




Not game to venture out of your little pond?

Try what? Breaking? Man, does it always have to be so overtly destructive?? How about this then? As a counter challenge, can you do this...

Get a piece of newspaper.... get someone to hold it up firmly. Then get a bokken and see if you can "cut" the newspaper. If you rip it - like a jagged tear, keep trying... until you get a clean cut....

If you understand how this works, you're on your way to understanding how different this stuff is to the overtly destructive exercise you offered. Whether it is more "effective" than what you propose, I'll leave that up to you to decide.

Meanwhile, I'll see if I can round up some bits of timber...

real...staged... or exaggerated? I believe it was a venue whereby the proponents were attempting to learn or glean something from the old man... so... is a training session real, staged or exaggerated? Whaddya think?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 03:01 AM

Ok for the record as I said earlier I don't know about that old git.

To answer Matt, yes they do use all the theories I learn in IMA to fight.

To answer Ed...no its not just about moving energy. It is very simply (Look at my Study of Energetics post a while back) a method of understanding the interaction of a energetic transference from thought, to feeling, to action to result. Your "mental" energy or mindset effects the performance of your brain. Fear will cause you to try and withdraw in on yourself, your "energy" will turn inward and you see the extreme version of this when people go foetal! What happens when your angry?

Oh just read this...a very poor attempt by myself to help put it in terms that normal people might understand: http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...e=0&fpart=1
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 07:40 AM

good article Gavin, see my questions there.

the whole discussion, for me, comes down to the question "do the concepts have ANY physical (internal or external) effect that can't be reproduced by others without such concepts?"

for health: longevity is a measurable statistic ...did people in ancient China live longer or shorter than today? Quality of life is a elusive but still quantifiable measure...are people 'happier' with x concept vs. y concept?

for Martial Arts: Defensively, are people better equipt to evade or withstand an attack with concept x vs. concept y?
Offensively, can people produce more measurable damage with concept x vs. concept y?

those are the kinds of measurable things I care about...if concept x doesn't gain anything from concept y, then the only real difference is in semantics.

if concept x DID have gain in some way...then it has to be illustrated/shown - otherwise it's just opinion. Do you see where I'm coming from?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 09:26 AM

Quote by Eyrie -

Quote:

Well, that kinda depends on how far out of your woods you're game to venture? To what extent have you sought out good IMA people???




Not far - but I have yet to see anything that leads me to beleive there is much more than the body mechanics I have described already.

Quote:

Who says they aren't??? I've already mentioned one name in particular to Ed... another is Rob John and a dude called Akuzawa in Tokyo that are using this stuff (albeit in a slightly different format) in an MMA venue. The fact that neither compete in UFC is irrelevant. AFAIK, Akuzawa does sanda... a Chinese equivalent of the UFC if you like - with different rules.




None of the MMA folk I have read about are making those claims, so it would seem that the majority of them don't. But I would be interested to see if there are any technical differences with the folks you named.

Quote:

Again.... your perception of "reality"... that it has to be "d34dly".... even in a friendly training scenario!!!!!??????




You missed my point completely. I'm saying that if it can be used in a non-deadly manner (as in the video), it should be able to be used in a sporting context. YOU are the one skewing reality here.

Quote:

Oh, that's just the "beginning" mate... as I said... there are "levels" that build off these base skills...




Again, I would be interested in seeing useful, structured applications of these advanced skills.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 09:44 AM

Now we're getting somewhere!

For me that is the big question...can the results of so called energetic principles manifest themselves in a way that the west will be able to recognise, understand and reproduce? My answer is yes, probably, but not quite yet and most probably not as elegantly.

My fields are both martial and healing so I'll give my opinion on why both work. Despite my apparent immense intellect I'm actually a bit thick (sorry to burst any bubbles) in reality therefore require simple explanations for complex things.

Think back to your training, when hitting a pad your told to "hit through it"! Why? How does this make us hit harder? The answer from a western point of view requires an immense understanding of psychology, neurology, anatomy, physiology and physics to even begin to start explaining the process that makes it happen. Not only do you have to understand each individual part you also have to understand how each science interacts...that's a few years worth of study.

All of those sciences are relevant to both martial arts and healing. The west is just starting to understand the affects emotional and psychological problems have on our physical well being and vice versa...the Chinese and many of the older shamanic traditions of the world have spotted and been treating for thousands of years to a greater or lesser extent. There is no debate that these treatments work, the west is just trying to explain now. Simply writing it off to a placebo effect is a bit of a cope out. If it is the case of just placebo, how comes the same results can't be achieved by the person simply wishing themselves better? The complex interaction of the various systems of our bodies and environment as a whole is the simple answer.

The west is concerned with the how...the why...the minute details. Chinese medicine is more concern with the "it does" and the process needed to get the "it does" working...this is exactly the same in the Martial Arts.

There are so many different groups out there trying to put together pieces of the puzzle whilst missing lots of pieces. Some are concentrating on power generation, some on mindset, some on form and technique, some on heavy contact sparring, some on achieve totally no-mindedness (there's a good question for the west...How and why does Mushin work?)...All of these pieces are part of the same puzzle. To me this is what the IMA's, well the good ones that haven't corrupted by clueless hippy f*ckwits, have. All the other systems of martial arts I've encountered only have parts of the puzzle and try to fudge the complete package by messing round with the pieces.

In a nutshell, to me thats it.

From a healing point of view here is my shiatsu thread over at the shikon forum. It has details of those that have been for treatments with and discussing their experiences and having a just on shiatsu in general. Some funny bits, some interesting and some utter nonsense.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 09:52 AM

'Hit through it'. So, you are saying that visualizing is a shortcut?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 10:05 AM

I believe everyone has had their say and so perhaps my saying something now would not rudely disrupt the flow of the arguments.

My take on the matter of 'chi', not just as a matter of a mere conceptual aid for bio-mechanical function and nothing more (as was argued by Ed, he can only argue of course as he has not seriously trained in the development of chi), but as a form of bio-(?) energy (a question mark because I do not have a scientific term for it yet, the lack of which by itself, I submit, does not necessarily negate its existence) having properties that seems to exert itself beyond the confines of the human body, and I do mean the whole body and not just a particular part only (here again how do I explain it if not "felt"?)

It is not magic, it can be felt with correct instructed training over a long period of time. It is a slow many stepped process and any impatience for quick results will only serves to retard rather than speeding it up, which is why people who have achieved significant results can be counted on the fingers of one hand in any generation of practitioners.

I do not need to give or recieve clever arguements to convince or detract me from my continuing training; I do what I do and I train what I train and I know what I know and if 'chi' really does not exist then it is a waste of my time and effort and no bodyelse's. However, if it does exist and have or can have properties in ways which present scientific principles do not have equivalents for(historically nothing new in this and all the more so as it involves the human brain which science is just literally scratching the surface) then it is my gain as well.

As I've said sometime ago on this Forum, I am giving myself up to my 60th year (2 years away) to achieve a full realisation of my training and until I am satisfied with my achievements, I shall not be showing it to anybody.

As for the old guy in that video, the coincidence of just those 3 same people who "tested" the old guy also appearing in the photo as disciples, suggest to me that they became disciples after the testing and not before. I do not subscribe to the notion that it was faked, because what I hope to achieve goes beyond what the old guy can do.

Don't ask me what or how yet, I will show it when I am ready.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 10:06 AM

The Chinese say "Where the Yi goes the Chi will follow!". The Yi can be translated as intention and Chi as energy. So where our intention goes so will our energy. So visualisation, or more importantly the intent IMHO is one piece of the puzzle.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 11:12 AM

the question is: does the person beleiving in terms of chi have any effect different from the person just visualizing their hand going thru? I bet not.

Quote:

If it is the case of just placebo, how comes the same results can't be achieved by the person simply wishing themselves better?



ahhh...but they can. sounds like you haven't read up on how placebo works. check it out sometime...find a source of information you are comfortable with and really read up on how and why it works - keep an open yet critical mind.

BP: If I can hit harder than you, does it prove I have a higher knowledge of channeling my Chi? if not...then what IS the test?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 12:19 PM

Quote:

...what IS the test?




I am replying because I do not want to appear rude by remaining silent.

Many many decades ago I was told that, like everything else in the multifarious sphere of human endeavours, the study and achievements in the IMA depends very much on fate. I, as a young man then, thought it was BS of course; what has fate got to do with it? Now after having lived 58 years, I begin to see the hidden wisdom of those words which came from an oldman who has been there and done that. My regret therefore is that I wasted more than 25 years of my life away from IMA due to work commitments, the cruel hand of fate.

I am not coping out on your specific question with some soppy biography, but to restate my previous post about my own timing of showing the results of my training and that "the test" as you put it will, if fate wills it, be made clear to you or other members of this Forum in due course of time. I may even make a special trip to the US (as I have a sister married to an American and living there)

Meanwhile on your question, even Eyrie can answer that; hitting harder than me has nothing to do with the purpose of "channelling chi" It's like saying I can spell Mississippi and you can't and so I am smarter (though at a very elementary level of chi training, you do get a stronger punch as an initial by-product of chi training simply because your musculature, tendons, bones (without increasing in size) underwent a "change" (that's why Bodhidarma, if he did invented it, called it "the Muscle/Tendon Changing Exercise") but it is not the ultimate goal)

So every attempt to artificially co-relate the effects of "chi training" into mere physical terms will get you no where simply because we are not talking about physio-mechanical properties here.(understandable of course since you have no idea what chi really is, and only long serious training can bring about true understanding)
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 12:53 PM

But BP, this is the same sentiment and similar words that charlatans and saints have been giving with equal equivocation over the centuries.

The point being made, I think, is that one can believe whatever one wants, but in this MA venue, the use of Ki/Qui has a distinct martial accent. Therefore, can someone prove its existence and then prove its utility within the confines of a martial arts application? If not, then there is little point to the use of unprovables as when Fate and its ultimate goal to bring understanding to the individual conspires to do such a thing.

What I see happening is that what is being stated has been wrested from MA utility to gain a foothold in some vague plane...nearly a religious understanding...that only the initiated may seek to enter. In this case, all bets are off since it becomes a personal issue of "felt" belief rather than one of empirical evidence open to all for the viewing. And when this happens, then there is still no evidence that what is being presented is real or not...despite the associated, personal belief that it is.

When we had a bunch of loons in San Diego (educated computer programmers, no less) that believed that they were going to the mothership behind a close by commet...well they all drank the Koolaid and despotited their tennis shoe wearing bodies on this side of the physical curtain. But before they made their last goodbyes...I am sure they all "believed" in the alien space ship. And I can't prove that they didn't get on it....but they're not here to tell me they did. That's faith, baby!
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 12:55 PM

If you come to the states, and don't visit...I'm going to be awfully mad.

Somewhat on track: how does...breathing...figure into this?

Here is a 'master' of breath control. Although a different venue/discipline, I'm certain his 'ki' was probably very developed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hX-8KSVOo
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 01:43 PM

Quote:

...can someone prove its existence and then prove its utility within the confines of a martial arts application?




Yes, what I said was I will prove it in my own time, when I am satisfied with what I have achieved.


Quote:

...that only the initiated may seek to enter





It is a rather exclusive club simply because the people who can teach it are getting lesser and those willing to put in the time and effort to learn are lesser still. You don't see any young people having high level skills.


Quote:

In this case, all bets are off since it becomes a personal issue of "felt" belief rather than one of empirical evidence open to all for the viewing...And when this happens, then there is still no evidence that what is being presented is real or not...despite the associated, personal belief that it is





If that is true then we have to say that throughout the whole history of the IMA, all the past practitioners who claimed to have used it for personal combat were deluding themselves and their opponents.


Quote:

That's faith, baby!





IMA does not depend on faith, who says it does? If it does, it would have died out a long time ago. I started my own training more than 35 years ago with as much scepticism as anyone who had absolutely no idea what chi was all about. I don't believe I am stupid, but it took me a long long time just to have some inkling of it. No amount of words however lucid can substitude for real training, you should know that by now. If you are lucky enough or fated to find a real master and put in the time and effort, then the discussion would be more meaningful to you.

Until then, if fate wills it, we may meet and you can draw your own conclusions. If not, it makes no difference to me.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:12 PM

BP, my 7th grade physics teacher could have beat up your college metaphysics teacher.

your non-argument kindof follows this logic:

if 3 people are meditating...one person's favorite color is blue, another's is yellow, and the 3rd person's is green. Which one is the most enlightened? The one who likes yellow of course!

geez...can't argue with logic that.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:15 PM

Quote:

Somewhat on track: how does...breathing...figure into this?





Breathing, "correct" or otherwise does not by itself development the awareness of chi in your body, hence the confusion and the constant popping up of this question.

Chi exist in your body already, the problem is HOW do you make conscious contact with it?

The breath is the one and only "thing" (leaving out food/water) that you take into and expel from your body with conscious control. Thus it is the natural avenue for your mind to manipulate the breath as it enters and leaves, together with structured movements of the body to make contact with the chi as it circulates. So two co-ordinated "movements" are necessary -- the breath and bodily movements; and tension of the body makes it difficult to co-ordinate the two movements in the beginning and so the constant harping on 'relax' or 'song' However at the advanced stage it makes no difference any more as contact has already being made with the chi. If you need to be "song" forever how the hell can you use it in any way?

This is step one. After you have made contact with the chi and can manipulate it at will at the speed of thought, the advanced aspects of its "utility" in IMA application starts now and not before; which is why teaching "bunkai" of the Tai Chi forms to beginners is ridiculous. I suppose in these days of keen commercial competition the master has no choice. Give them something or you lose them to someone else.

To reach this stage would have taken you close to 5 years with daily training. And this is only the start.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:21 PM

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Personally, I've no burning desire to research this topic (my focus in on the mind, and awareness), but it has been interesting to hear various perspectives on the subject.

Quote:

To reach this stage would have taken you close to 5 years with daily training. And this is only the start.


Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:24 PM

Quote:

Yes, what I said was I will prove it in my own time, when I am satisfied with what I have achieved.



(are you for real?)

well...if it's not quantifiable, how will you know what you 'achieved' ? or do you have crystals from the ancients telling you when it's time to don the bulletproof suit and save the world from itself?

my assumption in this thread is that we are talking about this concept as it applies to Martial Arts and perhaps mental/physical health ....is there something other than those things that are benefited by it's practice/understanding?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:30 PM

Not to be pedantic, but I question this:

Quote:

The breath is the one and only "thing" (leaving out food/water) that you take into and expel from your body with conscious control.




Hmmm. Breathing is an autonomic function like heartbeat or peristalsis. While it can be controlled to a degree, to say that people consciously control their breathing all the time is somewhat misleading.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:40 PM



BF,

By the way, no harm and no foul. I don’t mean this as anything personal here, so I hope you don’t take what I have stated in that way. Basically, what I am saying, and what Ed has stated, is that anyone can claim anything. And many can lay claims to self-fulfilling prophecies that go both ways. Motivation, self-hypnosis, faith, curses…all things that can bolster or denigrate one’s activities, but which are still not things that prove a metaphysical agency is responsible for one’s actions. And, when it comes down to it, besides those who believe in a super-physical sense of ki application, there has been no verifiable, scientific, empirical evidence to suggest that it exists and that it exists in a sense to expand anyone’s ability beyond what physics can show as probable by proper training.

In the past, people have had faith that something works a certain way or that an ancient battle was won with divine intervention, it will be the internalized perspective of the winners to promote that assumption---but it doesn’t make it real. What it does do is make those whom wish to say Ki helped me do something….to promote that idea. It doesn’t prove it.

Independent verification has to be promoted as a general guide to examine something. Otherwise whatever anyone says has to be taken at face value and the use of criticism goes out the window. If a great pianist says that he plays well because of a mystical force…well so be it. He claimed it…he is good, but doesn’t actually mean that mystical force helped him to play that piano. But it may assuage his mind in how this music comes out of him and give him some way to administer his playing within his own mind. But again, it doesn’t mean that in reality it works that way…or that verification of that “mystical” essence should be taken at face value.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:44 PM

That's right....rather then leaving it as an automatic function in normal unconscious breathing, you breathe in a controlled manner (during training of course) so that it functions as a bridge / a link between your mind and the internal aspects of your body and this controlled breathing coupled with structured bodily movements is how you make contact with the chi.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 02:59 PM

making that connection improves what exactly? in other words, if an instructor is teaching a student to make these connections...what would the instructor look for as signs of improvement?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 03:06 PM

Ed, Butterfly, we'll have to wait and see, won't we? Credit me with some intelligence, please

There are many ways to fight and punching hard is only one way.

By the way, Butterfly, science have always needed to catch up with human imagination, not the other way round. If Einstein needed to wait for the bomb over Hiroshima to explode first before......you know what I mean.

In my case it's easier; others have already half opened a door, it's a narrow one and not many people are willing to squeeze thro' it.

Guys, its 4 a.m. over here and even high level chi masters need to sleep, good night or good morning !!!!
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 03:09 PM

Quote:

making that connection improves what exactly? in other words, if an instructor is teaching a student to make these connections...what would the instructor look for as signs of improvement?





If I go any further I'll have to open a cyber dojo. Good Morning!!!!
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 03:10 PM

BF (and others):

There is an exercise that we do where one simply 'drops' an arm/hand on another. Depending on mind/focus, it is either felt by the uke lightly, or more like 'BAM'. There is no torque, body movement...it is simply 'dropping'.

Does this fit into 'ki' anywhere?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 04:39 PM

...but we aren't suppossed to hold our breath, are we BP?


can't show something in the physical world? then it exists only in your mind.

...and showing what exists in your mind is pretty cool!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=418avmwfx3Y
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 06:19 PM

Quote:

By the way, Butterfly, science have always needed to catch up with human imagination, not the other way round. If Einstein needed to wait for the bomb over Hiroshima to explode first before......you know what I mean.





That's part of the point that I would make as well. It isn't that phenomena can't be scrutinized first and then looked at underneath the unflinching eye of science. But that if you are going to decipher something into bite sized lumps and make them palatable in a fashion where they are repeatable and understood...you have to make that comprehensible leap into a scientific explanation that is repeatable and do-able by all who follow the same criteria to make a certain action come to pass--regardless if they accept the notion or not...not just the acolytes of a certain tradition.

-B
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 06:24 PM

Quote:

BF (and others):

There is an exercise that we do where one simply 'drops' an arm/hand on another. Depending on mind/focus, it is either felt by the uke lightly, or more like 'BAM'. There is no torque, body movement...it is simply 'dropping'.

Does this fit into 'ki' anywhere?




Forget about *ki* for the moment. In simple *mechanistic* terms, you are just at the early stages of learning how to use "down" power in a relaxed manner. This is one of the MOST important ways to learn how to *release* power. And everyone starts learning down power first.

So mechanically, you're dropping your entire body weight thru the arm/hand down. Everyone has to start *mechanically* in some fashion - so exaggerated BIG movements are indispensable as a visual means to convey what *should* be an *internal* "feeling".

As you get better at finding this feeling.... you'd want to have that *same* feeling but using a much smaller and tighter movement. And just so you know where some of us are going with this... so much so that you can automatically and instinctively apply this down power just by mere contact.

One of the examples I use to demonstrate this is the "nikkyo" wrist lock. (As I mentioned previously). Starting from the already locked position, you put "down" power thru the other person. No torque, no body movement... Drops the person like a ton of bricks. (The fact that you can crush someone's wrist like that is a CHOICE).

The point to note is that it is no different to the exercise you described above. It is the SAME principle of down power - except you're at one "level" of expression, and I'm using it at a different level. Who says it *has* to be an overt strike? And would you want to feel what an overt strike from me feels like if that were the case?

Make sense?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 06:37 PM

Quote:

Not far - but I have yet to see anything that leads me to beleive there is much more than the body mechanics I have described already.



Well, Matt, you obviously need to widen your scope.

Quote:

:q None of the MMA folk I have read about are making those claims, so it would seem that the majority of them don't. But I would be interested to see if there are any technical differences with the folks you named.



Well, Rob John (MMA) and Mike Sigman (CMA) just did a series of mini-workshops across your country - from DC to North VA, to Seattle, WA. Widen your scope, get out there and feel it! Ya ain't gunna feel it by reading about it! You asked if it was being used in an MMA venue and I answered. MMA is fighting skills - you need that. But MMA+IMA gives you an "edge" in fighting. What gives you an edge isn't going to be well publicized now is it???

Quote:

Again, I would be interested in seeing useful, structured applications of these advanced skills.



Define "structured applications"? You mean how to beat someone's a$$ using this? My point is, it's not "advanced"... it's BASIC... the applications might seem advanced, but they're BUILT on the same basics and fundamental principles.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 10:53 PM

Quote:

...a certain action come to pass--regardless if they accept the notion or not...not just the acolytes of a certain tradition.





If you have not or not willing to try, how would you ever know?

If I were to teach it to anyone (which I had to some members of my family who have no background in IMA or EMA whom I have taught only the very basics just to test the very notion you mentioned) it is repeatable in a way exactly as I predicted it. Like I said, credit me with some intelligence

Look at the forest, don't let the trees get in the way.

Ed,
.....holding your breath for 2 years? So you've finally come round to making a serious start to train in IMA?

Take what I said in any way you want; I'll do what I planned to do in my own time.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/27/07 11:31 PM

Eyrie,
some of the logic here is hilarious... "I don't believe in ki, so if you do and you can't prove it's existance, you're nuts... but I'm not going out of my dojo to find out if it exists... I'm too busy training...". On the other side, "everything's ki... it's the magic substance of everything"...

Let's change "Ki's name to Fred"... do you believe in Fred? I've never seen Fred, so he can't exist... Other people claim to use Fred to practice, but since I don't believe in him, I don't believe them. Fred's supposed to be very easily seen, but since I haven't personally seen or used Fred in applications, there is absolutely no way that Fred is for real... None of the MMA guys train with Fred, so he can't exist, and his supposed techniques couldn't possibly work.

Now, I've seen Ai-Fred-do, and it seems to be a very dynamic art, but since Fred doesn't exist, those techniques don't work and can't be used for anything purposeful... beginning to get the idea?

I have the same belief about tatoos... the more tatoos you have, the tougher you are, so once your body is tatooed all over, you can't get any tougher. Martial arts competitions should be broken into the "no tatoos", "a few tatoos", and "multiple tatoos" divisions, so that competition is fair. Face and neck tatoos get you into the division with Mike Tyson...



Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 12:05 AM

Yeah... except Fred is really Artie... Artie McStrawman...

See.... even though I've not used the word "ki" in any of my explanations, I'm still copping the sh!t. I dunno...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 12:59 AM

you are saying the nikkyo wrist lock is an example of Ki? of course it drops a person like a ton of bricks - it's leveraging against some of the smallest bones in a person's body. after a few years, it gets so efficient that it looks like the person is hardly doing anything to make it happen. and efficiency means putting less effort in on your part, whith equal or greater effect. actually, thats a good half of what makes Aikido, or any art for that matter, look so elegant.

here's where it changes to what I'm calling 'magical thinking'...and this is the only part I have a problem with:

extrapolate that fact (yes, I acknowledge increased efficiency from training as fact), and it's easy to imagine making someone leap into the air from just touching your arm without any perceptible motion on your part. of course, that kind of efficency would take multiple decades - which is why we would generally believe it's an old man's skill level. we see a 20-something doing the same thing, and we immediately call BS....an old guy does it, and it's suddenly 'plausable'. In both cases, old and young, we know nothing of the either person's martial training background.

It was translated that the old man asked for anyone to demonstrate...yet I later illustrated strong evidence that the 'anonymous uke' is actually a disciple of the old man.

thats deceptive...yet it gets glazed over and not addressed. (equivalent to throwing out the bad data...keeping the good data that underlines your point). I didn't hear anyone question the accuracy of the translation - maybe he actually said 'can I have one on my disciples come up here please'.

The point is, again and again, we see this pattern in these kinds of threads. same selective reasoning with Chi healing, psychic therepy, fortunetelling, etc - throw out the failures, report the sucesses. Thats a luxury science doesn't have, as a method of determining worth, the sucesses AND failures have to be taken into account and weighed.

If you are claiming that efficiency can be so refined, that someone can make a bag jump by just touch and without visibly moving their arm or body...that my friend, is magical thinking until you are willing to demonstrate it yourself.

matter of fact, I'd like to see you make a bag jump with just a full blown front kick. lol

I don't talk in theories. unless stated otherwise, I only claim what I'm able to do today, which isn't magic. how 'bout you? If you yourself can't do what the old man showed, then how can you label it true?

even though I can't do it, if I claim David Blaine uses Chi/Ki/Qi or Fred to levitate...how would you prove me wrong?

p.s.
hey Ki guys, why don't you post a video? nah...didn't think so. lol
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 01:15 AM

suddenly you want to break out the logical arguments...why start now?

not saying you guys aren't good at what you do...I'll take it on faith that you are at least semi-trained (since you won't post video, have never met with others on this forum, but talk a good game).

let's try this Grady...or shall I call you 'Fred'?
Give me a task that YOU can do, but I wouldn't be able to do if I had no knowledge of 'Ki' concepts or Ki-based training. k? let's try that for a logical argument.

have fun coming up with something.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 02:32 AM

Quote:

you are saying the nikkyo wrist lock is an example of Ki?


Now you're being an a$$... you're illogically associating what I said and superimposing your biased perspective over it and reframing in a context that suits your argument. The only "ki" here is the hot air blowing out your rear end....

Quote:

of course it drops a person like a ton of bricks - it's leveraging against some of the smallest bones in a person's body.


Not the way I do it... I guarantee..., unlike one from wristtwister, you won't feel the pain... and you'll won't be able to help yourself and you WILL drop to your knee and bow to me... I'm willing to bet $$$ on it. But then you'd have to get your hairy a$$ over here to try to collect the $$$.

Quote:

after a few years, it gets so efficient that it looks like the person is hardly doing anything to make it happen. and efficiency means putting less effort in on your part, whith equal or greater effect.


Really? The BJJ/JJ dudes aren't exactly what you'd call "cooperative" ukes... go on... explain THAT one...

Quote:

here's where it changes to what I'm calling 'magical thinking'...and this is the only part I have a problem with:


Here's what I call "sloppy thinking"...on your part...

Quote:

we see a 20-something doing the same thing, and we immediately call BS....an old guy does it, and it's suddenly 'plausable'.


Rob is in his 20-30s... ask him to show you. PM me for his contact details if u like...

<snipped rest of inane post>

You're just being a horses a$$ Ed.... your arguments are clearly limited within the realm of YOUR experience... because you haven't yet experienced it, it's not, in your limited framework, possible....
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 03:18 AM

Is it mulberry bushes time again?

IT'S NOT F*CKING MAGICAL! IMA's in a nutshell. If there is any unneeded tension in your body it will impede the flow of energy through the body, using whatever means you decide to view the world, kinetically, ki/cki/prana'ly or pixie f*cking fairy dustly. To prove the point, right this minute tense your bicep and tricep as hard as you can now throw a punch. Any feedback into the upper thorasic cavity? Learning body structure and appropriate tension is one level (where I'm at with my taiji now). Tension in the mind is another baaaad thing. Think of someone kidnapping your kid. Think of someone doing evil vile things to them. Really vividly picture that in your head. Once your really worked up hows that effected your body? Another level of tension and another level of training. Now look at you breath. Now look at the coordination of the articulations of the joints. Now look at the role of the muscles in that process. Learn in minute detail the anatognistic muscles that have a negative effect on the movement. Now look at accessing the reptilian part of the brain and how the higher brain level functions impede it's ability to access and harness our survival instincts hardwired into the back of our brains. NOW combine all those together and get them coordinated!

Now ALL of those things and more are needed to practice your martial arts to the fullest...now I'm talking about real martial arts not hobby horse martial arts here. The only person whom I have ever heard of who has taken their level of understanding of all the principles that IMA's teach from a western point of view is a UK guy called Steve Morris (http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/). It's taken him 40+ years of full time training and study to achieve his results. And to hear him talk is exactly like hearing my Taiji instructor talk. Same terms, same way of explaining things.

For those that bothered to take anything of what I have said, Chi theory is a elegant simple method of looking at the way things interact. You treat us like f*cking idiots because we choose a simply method of analysis that provides a model that can explore highly complex interactions at a level that would take a western scientist decades to understand theoretically let alone try and replicate physically. When someone comes on this forum trying to understand karate without an instructor we tell them, "You need to find an instructor!". Well guys as I've said in the past this is our ball park and your n00bs here. FIND A F*CKING INSTRUCTOR!

Another thing that also makes me laugh is that everyone is arguing western science against us, but I put money that your knowledge of the Western scientific principles powering your martial arts is as lacking as your Chinese knowledge. Your arguing against something that you know nothing about barring a couple of hours reading a wikipedia and a bit of googleing. If you really are interested in learning this stuff or just experiencing it then for f*ck sake go and do it. If your not why waste everyones time in meaningless ill informed arguments. I'm affraid folks, until someone can argue in terms of of an educated western science principle (which I enjoy greatly and when you do actually talk to someone who knows what they are talking about (rather than a Google Science education) the two worlds marry up very nicely!), rather than a f*ckwit with access to the internet I'm bailing any IMA discussion on this forum!
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 04:29 AM

Holy crap Gav... I sincerely hope that wasn't really addressed to me.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 04:40 AM

Sorry dude...just clicked reply. You're balanced enough to realise its not aimed at you! Or was it????
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:24 AM

Well, I've been accused of being brainwashed and braindead... to which I freely admit.... so no skin off my nose... we should get to play sometime.... if you ever want to escape your UK winter.... come and experience a real summer down under!
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 06:27 AM

Mate I promise you one day I'll definitely try take advantage of that offer. We can compare our blind faith black magic and I'll even bring my pixie dust! We'll show these non-believing heathens!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 07:59 AM

guys, breathe, relax and stop letting your emotions post for you...geez, I have to tell IMAists that?


so, I'll take it you'll just ignore this:
Quote:

Give me a task that YOU can do, but I wouldn't be able to do if I had no knowledge of 'Ki' concepts or Ki-based training. k? let's try that for a logical argument.





Gavin, I haven't a problem with IMA or CMA's...or even notion of Ki, and I'm not lumping it all into 'magic'. Thats not what I'm saying at all.

I resent the air of superiority of concept x vs. concept y without qualification.

regardless of concepts, kinesthetic learning is the basis of martial art skill...NOT which concept you have constructed for it. saying one concept is better than another is a bit like arguing which is the best religion....doesn't matter which belief you have - what matters is, is the person a decent and moral one.

beliefs themselves isn't what gives skill...which is why there are non-Ki-centric practioners who are every bit as skilled as the Ki-centered one. It all depends how many hours the've put in, their physical capabilities, their quality of teachers, etc ...all variables separate from the concept of choice.

to isolate the point in one task, you know darn well that if I demonstrated power generation with obvious more effective force than you guys, you'd say I was using Ki but didn't know it. If I didn't produce an effect near yours, you'd trumpet Ki as the underlying reason.

Thats not critical thinking...it's called magical thinking. (which doesn't have anything to do with 'magic'...in the term 'magical thinking' it's just a term to describe when someone believes something is true regardless of conflicting evidence).

thats as clear as I can put it really. I'm not a mod here, but do try to keep your emotions in check guys...this is just a discussion. if we keep level-headed and not resort to ass-kicking threats to make points, all may learn something.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 08:17 AM



Guys...do you think it's enough of a derail already? The guy asked how to feel ki...not whether it exists. As usual, it has degenerated into a science/vs magical thinking slugfest.

BTW: thank you Eyrie for answering my question on 'dropping'. For me, my teacher showing me a simple exercise was enough to point out something... to 'feeling'...something. I don't call 'it' chi...I like Gavin's way of explaining things...'tension' and releases.

Quote:

Hello. Like a previous post by a boy of my same age, I would like to get as much information about feeling ki and chanelling it as possible. I do not have any childish thoughts about using my energy as a weapon, I just would like to learn how to be in-tune to it. I have already done some intense rsearch on the matter and I am also involved in Aikido (which involves ki a lot). I have been an Aikidoka for about 6 months and have attained the rank of 5th kyu. Although my sempai and sensei have given me advice about chanelling ki and them including it in their lessons, I still am not able to feel my ki or chanel it. Any information oabout this topic and/or relating to it will be welcome. Thankyou for your responses.


Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 08:19 AM

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 11:02 AM

Quote by Eyrie -

Quote:

Well, Matt, you obviously need to widen your scope.




Possibly. Or perhaps you need to narrow the scope of your sarcasm and explain your answers a bit more? BTW - have YOU trained with ME that you know the scope of my training?

I am not making personal assumptions (complete with sarcasm) about what you do or your effectiveness - just looking for some specifics. How is what you do different from mechanics?

Quote by Wristtwister -

Quote:

I don't believe in ki, so if you do and you can't prove it's existance, you're nuts... but I'm not going out of my dojo to find out if it exists... I'm too busy training.




Grady, again, I'm not trying to be an ass. It just works out that way.

But scientific theory is such that if you present an idea, it is YOUR burden to prove it - not mine. I am not bound to go out of my way to prove every theory that I hear - especially if I don't agree with it to begin with. You saying that you "feel" it doesn't constitute proof. But I haven't said that I don't think "ki" exists - I just haven't seen anything about ki that makes it any different from regular body mechanics. Even Gav's last post seems to read that way. BTW - Thank you Gav for at least trying to explain in a non-condesending manner.

If it is, then can somebody prove it - or even explain HOW to prove it?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 11:30 AM

Matt it is regular body mechanics, just most people don't have a clue about bio-mechanics. It is regular psychology. It is regular physics. But it's also the way each of those sciences interact and how their "energies" manifest and affect everything else. As I said in my article we didn't just wake up and discover chi. It's just a simple way of observing things that are complex. Yin and Yang, the law of complimentary opposites, is a beautiful theory which without failure fits into everything you care to encounter.

I have a friend who is an advanced mathematics and physic Phd student that I spent many drunken Sunday afternoons last year talking to about physics from both of our points of view. The world is made of the same stuff no matter how you explain it. I went to a physio last year just to see how they done things and ended up chatting to him about energetic imbalances of the emotions and the spirit manifesting physically. He was fascinated with the energetic patterns.

I've also held my own with qualified counsellors who've also be very interested in the holistic energetic approach we use in shiatsu. Admittedly having counselling training myself does help me converse with them.

Point being with all these seemingly separate disciplines all have many common elements that the western isolate mind often fails to grasp. When I do a seminar I'll often pitch it to the crowd I talking to. Energetics are easier for me, but I can talk western speak as well...it just takes a lot longer and is a lot more confusing.

There comes a point in your training though where you have to start looking beyond the isolated understanding of the sciences and transcend your experience. At that stage understanding the workings of the sciences that are happening is too much for anyone person to be able to do from a western point of view, science just isn't their yet. At that stage is the fact it is happening more than the why that is important. The higher levels of human performance does have patterns and is reproducible...but I have yet to find a suitable western way of explaining the stuff I've had done to me in the realms of the average persons understanding. The IMA's are about process producing results. Get hit by a real Taiji guy and you'll understand that in an instant I promise you.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 12:04 PM

which real Taiji guy were you hit by?

what would it mean if I could hit as hard as him?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 12:20 PM

Quote by Gavin -

Quote:

There comes a point in your training though where you have to start looking beyond the isolated understanding of the sciences and transcend your experience.




Now this is where we differ. I have not had an "isolated" understanding of sciences (not to say that it's been complete), and my original art (AKK) was built on integrating them for martial purposes. Again, just not seeing anything different.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 12:45 PM

Ed, don't take this the wrong way coz as a bloke your not bad, but god you're a total ignorant prat at times.

This thread, like others is going no where. Which taiji guy should get to hit you? I think a few out there. Go and see Kempoman or go and see Ashe Higgs from the forums instructor Master Sam Chin I believe his name is, he looks like a good guy as well.

Thing that gets my goose sometimes Ed, not just with you, but others is that most of what you do is based on armchair observation. Read a bit of stuff on the internet and then go and argue tooth and nail with people who have spent years doing what you've only read about. I mean really, barring an arguement with us on here and trying to back up your viewpoint with webpage references...what have you actually done to qualify your opinion? What do you actually get out of trying to convince us that we're are so wrong? It's like trying to argue with a karateka about how sh*t karate is after reading Karate-do my way of life.

To qualify my viewpoints on martial arts and life I now have a bit on my CV. I've been studying since I was nine, and trained regularly ever since. I've travelled extensively to study with the best in the fields I had an interest in, I've studied counselling, security, anatomy and physiology, Chinese medicine, taiji, kempo, kick boxing and am spending a small fortune on further my field of experience. I also train every day to explore every aspect of my martial world and I put it on the line every week testing the theories and proving them in action, for real. In addition I have students who produce the same results in the real world every week also. I've gone out and found the best I can get hold of to build my experience. I've never shyed from anyone, always been open and simply share my actual practical experience. I don't read webpages and then try and put the world to rights based on theories I've read about or done in a couple of training sessions a week.

Why do you come on here? I tell you why I do, to share my experience which is somewhat different to a lot of people on here. I get regular invites to do guest slots at clubs from many different systems and not one of them has not asked me to go back.

What have you done? I'm on here sharing information that others might benefit from. I've been out there, like many others on the forum, in the mud and came back dirty with tales to tell. You my friend are an armchair intellectual nit picking observer. I and many others live the life you read about and slag off.

I hope that qualifies my stance on the situation and why I might seem a little peeved at armchair philosophers at times.

*I SEE THREAD GO BYE BYE COMING UP!*
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 12:58 PM

back to insults now? the logic-thing didn't work out?


"which real Taiji guy were you hit by?"

seemed like a simple question, Gavin. I didn't ask for your resume, I asked for his name.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:11 PM

Ed everyone on this forum knows who I study taiji with, fill in the blanks. If not do some browsing you're good at that.

Logical thinking hasn't stopped. A lot of people read this forum I want them to understand our backgrounds to help make more informed choices on what they read. As I stated I come from both a western and eastern background in terms of medical and martial education...what have you done to qualify your opinion?

What's your agenda here? Self serving ego trip? This is IMA forum, with people who "believe" in IMA's, you're the stranger here, why are you here? You've made up your mind already so why stay?

So my questions to you are (1) Why stay? (2) What have you done in terms of research and actual experience to mock constantly our opinions which haven't been forced upon you, coz you entered our section of the forum?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:14 PM

harlan... no worries... tension and release is a good way to describe it. But ok, no more derailing... but as I recall, it wasn't me that brought up the whole magical existence of ki thing.

mattj... my apologies... it wasn't intended to be sarcastic. I genuinely mean it... look further. It's not different from mechanics... it's more than just mechanics. Science can go some way to explaining it. Mechanics can explain some of it. But it's not really necessary to understanding or even proving it. You really do need someone who can show you and you need to feel it. It is really *subtle* stuff... and the fightin boneheads usually don't get it, because it requires a significant paradigm shift - remember hard and soft is the same thing.

Gav, Rob John used to train with Sam Chin, and from all accounts, Sam doesn't really teach the stuff. Sure he can do it, but he doesn't tell people how to. Since Rob started training with Ark, he's improved by leaps and bounds compared to his peers in Sam's group... so who's teaching who what and who's withholding it?

Ed... Ed... Ed... go see Dan. He's right in your backyard fer christ's sake. You are fortunate enough to have someone right under your nose. I wish I was living in MA...
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:20 PM

Quote:


Now this is where we differ. I have not had an "isolated" understanding of sciences (not to say that it's been complete), and my original art (AKK) was built on integrating them for martial purposes. Again, just not seeing anything different.




I so wish I could out to train with you mate. There are so many things that Ed Parker started to elude to but just never quite got there...then he died and his thoughts and theories (which were just works in progress) were taken as gospel. So much there that just misses the bullseye, but when you start looking at things under the microscope one inch can seem a mile. Honestly that's not meant as a threat (I know you know that anyhow's) but it'd blow your mind how close Parker got on some things...and to answer your point that your not seeing anything different...that's the point, like a good shot, it's the one you don't see that hurts! Bossman from the forum always says that the most dangerous stuff in the kata's and forms are the in between bits...the bits most people miss...that's where the treasures be buried!
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:20 PM

Quote:

Here is a 'master' of breath control. Although a different venue/discipline, I'm certain his 'ki' was probably very developed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hX-8KSVOo




Same principles... using the body as a "drum"... if you touch the abs of operatic singers, you'll see how well-developed their middle is. All thru breath and using the vibrational frequencies of certain tones. Different way of building... but unfortunately, on it's own, not much use martially.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:24 PM

Not aim at Eyrie...Bossman has just posted this on another forum on a totally different subject but I think it relates to this thread extremely well:

Quote:

If that's what you want to do, as I said, logic rarely comes into it. people argue logic, but act in how they feel.




Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:47 PM

Welcome to the IMA forum!...

logic + intellectualism = BAD

belief + non-critical thought = GOOD


got it. you are right Gavin, clearly I'm in the wrong forum section. btw, bossman's quote underlines MY argument of people acting on emotions instead of wanting to debate the thread.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 05:56 PM

Quote:

you are right Gavin, clearly I'm in the wrong forum section.







Bye Ed...have fun browsing!


I love smilies!
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 06:02 PM

Quote by Gavin -

Quote:

There are so many things that Ed Parker started to elude to but just never quite got there...then he died and his thoughts and theories (which were just works in progress) were taken as gospel.




While I don't disagree that EP's techniques have been taken as gospel (incorrectly), I am not sure what theories you mean were "not quite there". I was not aware you were trained in AKK, for that matter.

Can you give me an example of a concept that is "not quite there"? Marriage of gravity, launching, rotational force, etc? You mean those? Oddly enough, EP specifically differentiated these because most beginners cannot grasp "the whole", and it's helpful to be able to show them individual parts that they can put together as they learn them.

I have found the conceptual base of AKK far more useful than the actual techniques (which do not seem much better than any other style of ke?po that I have seen), FWIW.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 06:28 PM

Quote:

I was not aware you were trained in AKK, for that matter.




Ooooooooooo...'ark at you missus! I haven't trained in AKK...I hit things, not flick them! (straight back at ya!)

Marriage of gravity is a wonderful one...PM me if you're really interested in talking about that! AKK did (does?) have ideas far above its actually ability to deliver, but I think that is due to the spirit of the beast not being carried on IMHO...much like JKD...Parker was a great analogiser (if that's a word!) who managed to analogise things beyond his actual understanding...would have been wonderful to see what he'd have achieved given another 20 years to really make the practical side work!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 06:33 PM

you only proved your beliefs are stronger than my logic.

meanwhile, I can still hit harder than you. lol
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 06:37 PM

Can we stop pi$$ing at each other, please?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 07:01 PM

Aww shucks do we have to? We ain't even got to getting the rulers out stage yet? Now I'm going to have to back to my other pass time of happy slapping old age women now...some real gravitational marriage there!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 07:18 PM

who's pi$$ing?

you know, I just imagined what the poor kid who opened this thread is probably thinking: "maybe I'll just go back to lifting weights." lol

seriously Kage_Meijin, eyrie had it right from the first page...ask your instructor. I think thats advice we can all agree on - the rest is nonsense.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 02/28/07 11:50 PM

Quote:

logic + intellectualism = BAD
belief + non-critical thought = GOOD




Logic and critical thought is fine. Intellectual debate is fine. But you are not subscribing to what you preach. Your arguments are flawed, your logic is sloppy, and as for intellectual debate and critical thinking, I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a coherent line of debate from you.

You keep taking things out of context, and putting your own illogical spin on it. I suspect that better or more information isn't going your opinion, because from your limited armchair perspective, you can't see the principal points of the debate.

But enough of a pi$$ing contest... I have suggested a few names of people who I believe have the goods. Until you go and find out for yourself, instead of playing armchair budo and thinking that you already have the goods, we are wasting space arguing either position.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 12:42 AM

ok. you're right. but I've specifically decided NOT to meet with your guy. I have other plans that are more pertinent to training.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 01:00 AM

Quote:

ok. you're right. but I've specifically decided NOT to meet with your guy. I have other plans that are more pertinent to training.




That just about sums it up then.... the opportunity is there but you're not willing to do anything about it. As BP said, sometimes fate plays a part in it. In your case, it's in the palm of your hand.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 01:20 AM

right again. now will you move on and focus on your own training?

which btw, how's the classes with Pat going? I bet you have lots of new material you are working on.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 01:31 AM

Pat's classes were nearly a decade ago... I've since moved on, metaphorically and physically.... really.... I've moved West and then North.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 01:32 AM

ah...well, I'm sure you'll be training again soon.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 07:00 AM

Quote:

As BP said, sometimes fate plays a part in it. In your case, it's in the palm of your hand.





More than 30 years I was taught something and didn't practice it seriously and left it on the "shelf" and did things that are more flashy, until a few years ago I decided to re-visit them because I was getting old and I got cancer and was shocked to find what treasures I was given and didn't appreciate them because I didn't pay for them (but they came with the word 'fate' attached)....what an ass...and the oldman is no where to be found. Which is why I'll never show any of it until I think I am ready.

A diamond sparkles only when polished, otherwise it's just a dull rock. The eternal question has always been -- HOW, HOW, HOW!!!!
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 07:57 AM

I'll just shut up now... what was that phrase?.. something about casting pearls?
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 08:09 AM

Fascinating thing to ponder...

You know...for years I lived literally two blocks from the 6th Dan that Ed met through me, and now trains with. I moved in an environment of people that knew him, and knew each other...and yet...it never came up. An invisible net that I moved through and was unaware of. Always...just missing him. Even my husband knew of him...and it never came up in conversation. 20 years later my search for Jodo wended it's way back to this little place.

We like to take credit for our decisions and fortunes in life, but some things are right in front of us and untouchable.
Quote:

Quote:

ok. you're right. but I've specifically decided NOT to meet with your guy. I have other plans that are more pertinent to training.




That just about sums it up then.... the opportunity is there but you're not willing to do anything about it. As BP said, sometimes fate plays a part in it. In your case, it's in the palm of your hand.




Don't worry about Ed, guys. It only took a year of pestering for me to get him to jump ship to his current training. Give it a couple of years.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 08:29 AM

Ed who?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 11:29 AM

Funny you say that Harlan, when I was a kid (pre-training years) I used to nick my Dad's MA magazines specifically for one regular column called "A voice from the Deep!". These articles were short stories about general happenings with a Dojo. Little lessons given by the Sensei to the students. These little articles were what inspired me to actually start writing about MA's in the first place. The author of these articles turned out to be the same guy I'd be studying with some 20 odd years later...Bossman himself, Mr Steve Rowe. Some things are just destined!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 11:53 AM

people begin to change when they are ready to....no sooner.

an important point is not confusing your need to change, with someone elses.


I very much enjoy the changes I'm working on.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 11:56 AM

I've come up with a good use for chi.

Burning bridges.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 08:05 PM

I've got a much better use for it....

... killing the thread.

Despite my best efforts to avoid the word altogether, I find myself inexplicably drawn into the "does it, doesn't it" debate.

For the record, nobody's trying to change anybody. Those of us who have wasted time or been led down the wrong path are merely offering a different perspective, based on past experience, lest others find themselves wasting time barking up trees. Yet, I quite enjoyed the verbal sparring with some worthy adversaries.

But like everything else in life, things are only of real value if you have to sweat blood and bleed tears for it. If it's given away for free, no one finds any value in it.

Advice is free. So take it for what it's worth.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 11:09 PM

Eyrie,
I only mentioned ki because it was the subject of the thread. I seldom mention it in classes because I would rather concentrate on helping students gain the correct body mechanics and movement before trying to teach something as simple and complicated as intrinsic energy.

The guys with the "parlor tricks" always cloud the water of those who are utilizing the study to effect good martial techniques. While part of the problem is trying to turn martial arts into a "sport" system rather than a martial system, which eliminates a lot of essential elements, it also makes a big opening for the "parlor tricks". Way too many people would rather be baffled with bull$*** than trained with understandable principles that are simply learned through the body rather than the spoken word.

Ever since I joined the FA boards, Ed's been a skeptic of almost anything, and convincing him of anything is nearly impossible. It's nothing bad on his part, it's just part of his personality. I have a son who's next question to almost anything is "why should I believe that"?... followed by "why do you believe that"?.. and it doesn't really matter what the answer is, it's just the starting point for the next round.

MattJ... I didn't think you were being an a$$ about anything. We just had some different ideas. I prod all my MMA and BJJ buddies about their training, etc. just to keep things interesting.

Man... I hate that I got tied up for a couple of days and missed this free-for-all... big problem at work, and had to help my son fix his car, so I was out of touch for a few... That doesn't matter, though... I was still getting hammered...

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/01/07 11:22 PM

You didn't miss much. There's a few really good posts from Gav regarding body mechanics and psych, but somehow that got twisted into being something equating to ki.

I think I've already mentioned it several times before. I don't use the work ki when teaching. My instructors didn't, neither did our teacher. Like you, I focus on the mechanics as that's much easier to grasp. Yet, somehow it got all twisted up as whatever I said became equivalent ki.

I think in this case, it's not so much what is being transmitted, but how it's being interpreted by the reception and perception filters.

Ah well, more
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 12:36 AM

is this the 'face saving' part of the thread? can I join in too?

WT: yes, I'm a skeptic...but not 'just about anything'...I think it's safer to say 'EVERY damn thing'. lol I'm most skeptical about myself-and I actually take comfort in that. I make no appologies for skeptics, but thanks for acknowledging it's just part of my DNA. as oppossed to just calling me a 'hairy a$$ monkey' or sumthin.
Your point of feeling it as oppossed to talking about it - I completely agree and I've consistantly said that thruout and even before this thread. I've also mentioned that prior to joining this forum, I didn't read or intellectualize about training...ever. I just trained as 'go like this'. The topic of the thread, or at least where the thread went, wasn't about the 'feeling it' - but rather just about defining the 'it'. some, such as myself were defining 'it' as body mechanics and in physical world terms...but others were alluding to 'something else' with the air of esoteric knowledge. my counter argument, which was never addressed...ever, was if there is 'something else' some esoteric knowledge - then put me to task. give me something that I couldn't possibly do unless I had the 'something else'. and if you couldn't do it either, then that would mean you don't have the 'something else' that you talk about...and why talk about what you can't do?
Nearly all of everyone's points, from both sides, that addressed the tangibles, I agree with.

eyrie - so you weren't talking about Ki. oh. then you were off-topic and derailing this whole time? (hear that twisting noise again? it's me wringing out the thread )

Gavin - Hi.



peace bro's
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 12:59 AM

How many exercises do you want without even trying it?

Fine... last one...

Stand shoulder width apart, arms locked straight out, facing your partner who is doing exactly the same thing. Now both of you touch palms and push... see which one falls over.

Now, the trick is how to push and make your partner fall over while keeping your own balance.

A straight body connection exercise... yours, theirs, and BOTH.

Do it, don't ask anymore questions until you do.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 01:21 AM

funny eyrie. or maybe you didn't choose that one on purpose. let me gently put it this way: The test is something on an inanimate object that you consider only someone possessing the higher knowledge of 'Ki' can do.

make a bag jump, put out a candle, break some boards...etc. giving me a relative test is not a controlled environment. what if I choose my 12 year-old son as uke? ok, I pushed him over...now what? see? it doesn't show anything.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 01:33 AM

let me respectfully explain something, I don't mean this as condecending at all.

scientific methods have different techniques to describe inpartial truths. This helps to build larger truths when glued together with strict logic.

the task you gave me was not a 'test'. instead, you are giving me a process. A process won't illustrate anything in a strict scientific sense. process works for learning and teaching. what I'm asking you for is a test. not to be taught.

thats not an argumentive statement...it's emotionless scientific method.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 02:23 AM

WTF? It wasn't good enough? Now you're dictating the conditions and parameters of the test???

Quote:

The test is something on an inanimate object that you consider only someone possessing the higher knowledge of 'Ki' can do.




Now who's the one with "beliefs" of what "ki" is and can/can't do???

I don't know where you going with this.... but OK... I'll play along...

So far Gav, wristtwister, Lane, BP and myself have ALL said the same thing... the mechanics are more important than anything else. And yet somehow, the mechanics aren't good enough for you?

So how did you arrive at this logic for a "test"?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 03:13 AM

OK, one last attempt...I'll quote (well paraphrase) Bossman and also my Shiatsu instructors.

Chi/Ki/Qi can be translated to mean that which animates us. It is the thing that provides us with the animation to move. The spark that comes when all the separate diverse infinitely complex processes converge and somehow work their magic.

Throwing a punch is more than just body mechanics. If someone performs a kata without any intention you could describe it as just looking mechanical, dead, lifeless....lacking in animation.

Watch dancers, good dancers flow, have life and animation to their movements. You couldn't explain to me exactly in solid scientific terms what causes one dancing couple to look like that are dancing as an art form and another that just looks like they are mechanically going through the motions...without using words like they lacked soul or there was no animation.

The martial arts is so much more than just mechanical movement combined with a bit of mindset. There is an undefinable spark (in western thinking!) that makes it alive. ALL serious life long practitioners develop a certain degree of spark. You've all felt it. How many of you have described or experienced mushin when practising? Explain that to me in concrete terms. How and why does mushin work...if you can't or you can't explain to me why someones kata looks dead and another persons looks flowing and dynamic...by the standards set down by the sceptics in this thread you can't teach or practice what you do.

McSensei summed it up perfectly for me yesterday...and he is the biggest hard nosed sceptic of them all...Do you love your kids? Yes? Prove it. Define and prove to me your feelings of love. How do I know you love your kids. Describe to me in scientific concrete terms why and how you love your kids. All the chemical, hormonal and physiological processes that cause you to have this feeling...I want to know! Obviously if you can't describe your love, it is obviously invalid and you don't really love your kids, because as a concept love cannot exist unless you physically define it...or is it a case of having that loving feeling and knowing it? If it's the latter then my "Who feels it, knows it!" quote sums up what we've all been saying?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 03:52 AM

Quote:

The test is something on an inanimate object that you consider only someone possessing the higher knowledge of 'Ki' can do.




Crap... editing timed out... I wanted to pick up on the emphasized bit... someone with higher knowledge... are you testing knowledge or ability, because they are 2 separate things.

Someone might "know", but their ability to apply may be limited. For example, if I told your 12yo how to stand and push and stop you from pushing him over and how to push you back so you fall over, he now "knows" how to do it, but whether he can or not is another thing. So what are you really testing????

And to pick up on what Gav said... It's like showing someone how to ride a bike. Once they get the gist of it, it's simple. But explaining how in scientific terms is a waste of time.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 06:34 AM

nevermind.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 06:43 AM

Uh... meaning???

You wanted to test... fine... let's design a test that would satisfy your curiosity once and for all.... specify the test objective, the conditions, the parameters, the expected results, and how you intend to create a double blind control....
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 06:55 AM

Eyrie you're wasting your time mate.

Quote:

“Never argue with an idiot. They’ll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.”




You, I, we all have...discussed this in every possible way that written will allow. He's trolling. Clearly has no interest in IMA and is simply trolling.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 07:03 AM

I was letting you design the test eyrie. and yes, a test of demonstrative skill, not just knowledge.

I believe you stated, or maybe it was just hinted that you can direct a good amount of energy into something, yes?

that would mean you can hit something pretty hard, right?

and if that were true, an observer would be able to tell you were hitting pretty hard by watching you direct your energy into something...like a bag or other stationary and inanimate object...still with me?

if person X (that'd be you) hits something with force.
and
person Y (that'd be me) hits an equal thing with equal force,

THEN.....big dramatic drum-roll...

that would show that whatever concept is used (force described as ki energy, or force described in physics), is independant of the ACTUAL force delivered.

make sense?

in summary: any force you can exert on an inanimate object...I will attempt the same.


the 'inanimate object' is the control of the test...so we can't say it acted.

my kids understand that concept of 'test control'. basic scientific method 101.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 07:23 AM

side-note: remember our 94-year-old man making his student jump into the air?

if he can direct that kind of actual force, then he'd be able to make a bag move too. by just touching his arm to it.

why will we never see a similar demonstration to an inanimate object? reason: because they NEED the student to fake it.

once you introduce a control (ie: a bag)...the 'mysterious and hidden powers' suddenly disappear.

what would that tell you? if a demonstrator could make a student jump/leap/fall ...but couldn't do any of the like to an inanimate object?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 09:50 AM

ok. thought of a test. if you can project energy, this should be a good test.


How far can you throw a baseball?
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 12:10 PM

Gavin,

I have to side up a bit on Ed's tesm here, but I let it go after this.

You wrote:
Quote:

Define and prove to me your feelings of love. How do I know you love your kids. Describe to me in scientific concrete terms why and how you love your kids. All the chemical, hormonal and physiological processes that cause you to have this feeling...I want to know! Obviously if you can't describe your love, it is obviously invalid and you don't really love your kids, because as a concept love cannot exist unless you physically define it...or is it a case of having that loving feeling and knowing it? If it's the latter then my "Who feels it, knows it!" quote sums up what we've all been saying?






Well this is a little outside the ken of the discussion. What basically has been asked is that if KI is useful in the application of technique, then it has to have a measurable difference when compared to its lack.

The emphasis is not on an Asian mentality or experience or anything else. Basically, it is related to examining X and Y and assuring that they are as equivalent as possible to eliminate other variables. And then to examine (if it can be measured and defined---which you have to do in order guages it's usefulness) if its existence in one sample relates to abilities not found in the other, because of its presence and not other things happening.

So in essence, it doesn't matter about who hits harder or throws farther unless you can ascribe to one test subject, who is equivalent to the other, those things that only Ki can grant. Otherwise, just because someone says they have it...it doesn't mean anything unless you can measure it.

There is no evidence to suggest one person is touched by God and the other is not if both claim it and can't prove it. Then, this whole thing falls into the scope of faith and a "feeling" of legitimate utility....regardless if it is there or not.

The point being is that if you say it is there, you have to show that it works as described. And if you can't, then there is no way to test for it or reason its existence as anything as a personal construct to help the individual consider technique.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 12:47 PM

I'm not saying it is or isn't there, as I have said, to me, it is a way of describing complex things simply. Love is a hugely complex thing at all levels to understand and is defined based upon personal experience.

It is method of analysis. It is a model of observation. A way of explaining things simply. It is the end result of a string of actions that produced a result. The whole of Chinese medical theory is based upon 2500 thousand years of clinical observation. The fighting arts share this same method of analysis. In my Taiji lessons the word Chi is used so infrequently I could probably count it on my fingers. The only people who make a big deal out of it are those who don't understand the concept....that's it. Love is a concept, a method of describing a series of happenings. So is Chi. If you choose a different method of describing it, fine. BUT I've been around a bit now and I've not been able to find anything that explains things that can be replicated over and over again. It fills in the gaps where western scientific terms fail or become too complicated...THAT'S IT!

Bossman describe it as the difference between having a users manual and manufacturing guide for the body. I need to know how to use it, not how its made. NTKO's are BS. Chi projection is BS. Hitting things hard isn't. Describing how to hit something hard so others can understand it isn't either. That's it. Basically, choose whichever method floats your boat, choose western though and there are huge gaps in the things that needed to be understood, which due to the lack of articulation need to be discovered through hard graft. If someone has a model that fills in the gaps from the start and helps you understand the concept so it improves your performance rather than forcing you to faff around...is that such a bad thing? Even if it might not quite work out just so under the microscope? That's it really. For me it's the process that causes the end result that's the thing for me.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 01:16 PM

Quote by Gavin -

Quote:

Basically, choose whichever method floats your boat, choose western though and there are huge gaps in the things that needed to be understood, which due to the lack of articulation need to be discovered through hard graft. If someone has a model that fills in the gaps from the start and helps you understand the concept so it improves your performance rather than forcing you to faff around...is that such a bad thing?




It's not. But why do you assume that western science has such huge gaps? AKK specifically breaks down many formerly impervious concepts like back-up mass, rotational force, marriage of gravity, launching, etc into digestible peices that can be easily understood. In ANY type of training methodology, there is going to be a "grafting" process. That training has to come regardless of what intellectual pathway is taken.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 01:32 PM

Yes Matt, the hard training and graft is what it's all about. But it's about mindful purposeful training. Western science does have huge gaps in it's understanding of performance. Having a model that provides awareness of the process the results without gaps allows to to train specifically and purposeful. Knowing exactly why you do a sequence allows you to perform the sequence purposefully rather than generally. Being able to explain the subtleties from the offset means you can work them purposefully rather than sort of discovering them and sort of training them.

This thread really has gone beyond the point of being very useful and is now just people putting up the picket fences. Nothing said is going to change the way I train, and I doubt it'll change the way anyone trains...so I'm just going to enjoy my own stuff in my own unique way!



PS. Matt I'll reply to your PM later I've got to go a Chi-zap some drunks!
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 03:08 PM

Sorry to come late to the party.


Quote:

which real Taiji guy were you hit by?




Vince Black - Phoneix, Arizona
Ed Hamton - Blacksburg, Virgina
Tom Bisio - [I forget just where], New York


Quote:

what would it mean if I could hit as hard as him?




Not to be a d!ick but, you can't.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 03:47 PM

Quote by Gavin -

Quote:

Western science does have huge gaps in it's understanding of performance. Having a model that provides awareness of the process the results without gaps allows to to train specifically and purposeful. Knowing exactly why you do a sequence allows you to perform the sequence purposefully rather than generally. Being able to explain the subtleties from the offset means you can work them purposefully rather than sort of discovering them and sort of training them.




Genuinely not trying to poke you here, Gav. But that is a pretty bold statement. Can you explain how W/S has "gaps" as opposed to anything else? I fail to see any difference in your description compared to my experience in a "scientific" martial art.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 03:48 PM

Woah...I think people are misconstruing the emphasis that Ed's placing in his post about hitting ability. Ed's not taunting anyone, he's saying that it doesn't matter who can hit harder than whom---if you don't have the reasons, and measurement for those reasons, presented in an understandable and definable format.

Otherwise it is exactly like everything else in this world with some folk better and some folk worse than others, but without the consideration of Ki. If you can't describe or define it--- it is extremely difficult to judge its capacity when presented in statements where Ki makes the difference in a particular technique. That's all.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 04:32 PM

Quote:

Woah...I think people are misconstruing the emphasis that Ed's placing in his post about hitting ability. Ed's not taunting anyone, he's saying that it doesn't matter who can hit harder than whom---if you don't have the reasons, and measurement for those reasons, presented in an understandable and definable format.





Perhaps, but the gentlemen in my previous post are all from the same lineage. So something from that lineage's practices produces this ability.


Quote:

Otherwise it is exactly like everything else in this world with some folk better and some folk worse than others, but without the consideration of Ki. If you can't describe or define it--- it is extremely difficult to judge its capacity when presented in statements where Ki makes the difference in a particular technique. That's all.




what would you rather be hit with

...a plasticball bat swung at 75 mph or
...a concrete filled pole swung at 75 mph.

Until you feel these people with high level skills you have no idea.

There are three names take your pick.

I did a conitioning exercize from our lineage with Dr. Hampton. It felt like I was slamming my forearms into concrete posts.
He told me that I would have to do this with the young girls in his class, anyone else was likely to break my arms.

The difference in skill was night and day and I had been training EMA for 20 years at the time.

I am a large man. I am 6'3" and go about 250 lbs. It was like my seven year old trying to attack me.

Go feel it. It will scare you.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 04:53 PM

Kempoman -

I get you that there are IMA people that can hit hard. That was never the question, though. The question is "is there something definably different about the results of ki-based training compared to non-ki based training?"

If it's just mechanics, which some folks are saying that it is, but.........

How can we define the difference? Lots of people can hit hard.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 07:00 PM

KM, if it's all the same, could we keep to just what each one of us can do, and not invoke 3rd parties to make our points for us?

I believe what you are saying is true, and take it at face value those gentleman you mention can hit harder than me. The question is, since you are the one participating in this thread and not them, what can YOU do from having trained in IMA that other non-IMAists here could not possibly do?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 07:01 PM

Matt, I know your not poking fun. Go and see the guys Scott has suggested. Western science doesn't yet fully understand the fusion of mind and body. Any neurologist well tell you that. "Scientific Martial Arts" aren't scientific in the slightest in most cases, they are done with an high school level of scientific appreciation. Same with most of the idiots who try to apply TCM to their martial arts. There is so much garbage out there on both sides of the fence its scary.

As I keep saying I come from both a western and eastern background...I have an A&P exam coming up in May, so I can argue from both camps and have an understanding from both camps. 98% of the martial artists on the planet do it as a hobby. 2% probably less do it as a way of life. Those are the 2% I'm interested in. I'll share experiences, happily train/glove up/cross hands with anyone in the spirit of boardening my experience of life and the arts. Talking online is fun and all but at the end of the day we are talking about higher levels the of martial arts here. Most will dismiss that as condescending, elitist, BS and many other things...most will stay well with in what they feel comfortable with. Most read a brilliant article on Martial Arts and think yeah that was good then file it away....very few actually ever do anything about it. This takes so much effort to understand and put into practice that so few actually ever do it. The majority try to cheat and scam people (including themselves) that they are part of a higher breed and can do things that aren't possible...they are the ignorant idiots who've caused the IMA's to become a laughing stock. There are a few hidden treasures there to be discovered but most won't get out off the butts to experience them. The plethora of excuses is immense. You've got names to try it out with now...be kinky and try something new...if not there's no where else for this to go.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 08:45 PM

Quote:

I believe you stated, or maybe it was just hinted that you can direct a good amount of energy into something, yes?

that would mean you can hit something pretty hard, right?





How hard is "hard"? According to what scale and mode of measurement?

Quote:

and if that were true, an observer would be able to tell you were hitting pretty hard by watching you direct your energy into something...like a bag or other stationary and inanimate object...still with me?




IF that were the case, which it's not... and besides, that kind of "observation" is totally "unscientific"...

Quote:


if person X (that'd be you) hits something with force.
and
person Y (that'd be me) hits an equal thing with equal force,

THEN.....big dramatic drum-roll...

that would show that whatever concept is used (force described as ki energy, or force described in physics), is independant of the ACTUAL force delivered.





Sometime ago Rob John quoted a similar "test" that was done on a Japanese TV show, to which his teacher Ark was invited to participate, to see who could hit harder. This was measured across 3 dimensions - impact force in lbs/in2, distance the force travelled and time it took for the force to peak.

I can't find the exact post or where it was posted, but the gist of it was, there were 4 or 5 people involved in the test, a boxer, a karate dude, a taiji dude, Ark and maybe someone else.

IIRC, (and my memory is faulty at the moment coz this was some time ago), the boxer maybe had the highest punch strength of about 800+ psi but the distance traveled was quite short and peaked initially within 2-3 seconds and petered out after 8. Ark's OTOH traveled quite a bit further and peaked at 8 sec before petering out at 10. Or maybe Ark was about equal in force psi or maybe higher... I can't remember.

The long and short of it was, the "test" was inconclusive, since not only is force the sole indicator of skill, nor did the test factor in the difference in relative abilities of the participants. Besides, it was done on a Japanese TV show... 'nuff said.

Draw your own conclusions....

So unless we are both going to be measuring it on the exact same apparatus designed for the purpose, any further discussion regarding "testing" is moot.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 09:22 PM

Quote:

I get you that there are IMA people that can hit hard. That was never the question, though. The question is "is there something definably different about the results of ki-based training compared to non-ki based training?"

If it's just mechanics, which some folks are saying that it is, but.........

How can we define the difference? Lots of people can hit hard.




Hitting harder isn't the real issue... and in fact detracts from the issue. What Kempoman is pointing at is the body skills acquired thru the training methodology. That you can hit harder is a result of these body skills. But I think this is where people are becoming unstuck... it's missing the forest for the trees...

Hard and soft aren't 2 separate things.... it is the SAME thing. People can only perceive things in duality, when there is something to compare it with, and only if it conforms within their perception "framework" and perspective.

It IS based on rudimentary mechanics and mechanics *may* explain some of it, but the human body is a far more complex system than can be explained in reductionistic and purely mechanistic terms.

It IS a kind of "strength" but not as you or I would normally perceive it... how different it is... can't really be explained in purely mechanistic terms...

To illustrate the point... and salt shakers at the ready...

Quote:


C: Were there any episodes while you were at the Toyama School?

O Sensei: Strength contests?...One incident took place, I believe, before the episode with the military police. Several captains who were instructors at the Toyama School invited me to test my strength against theirs. They all prided themselves in their abilities, saying things like: "I was able to lift such-and-such a weight," or "I broke a log so many inches in diameter". I explained to them, "I don't have strength like yours, but I can fell people like you with my little finger alone. I feel sorry for you if I throw you, so let's do this instead." I extended my right arm and rested the tip of my index finger on the end of a desk and invited them to lay across my arm on their stomachs. One, two, then three officers by themselves over my arm, and by that time everyone became wide-eyed. I continued until six men lay over my arm and then asked the officer standing near me for a glass of water. As I was drinking the water with my left hand everyone was quiet and exchanging glances.

Source: http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html





Translation accuracy aside, here Ueshiba distinctly says... "I don't have strength LIKE yours".... so what is it?

BTW, if someone wants to explain this "trick", feel free...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 09:43 PM

you are introducing variables for wiggle space.

who can effect a greater force upon an inanimate object eyrie? you or me? how far can you throw a baseball? thats the only simple test I proposed. if you have 'something' that allows you to redirect your energy with greater effect than a non-IMAist...then you should be able to throw the baseball a much further distance.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 09:50 PM

Quote:

you are introducing variables for wiggle space.

who can effect a greater force upon an inanimate object eyrie? you or me? how far can you throw a baseball? thats the only simple test I proposed. if you have 'something' that allows you to redirect your energy with greater effect than a non-IMAist...then you should be able to throw the baseball a much further distance.




Look Ed.. if you want a physical challenge, then as the initiator, you'll either have to come to me, or bring me to you.

BUT, since you're so cheap, I can make it really easy for you... YOU win.. You're stronger than I can ever hope to be... Not only can you punch harder, you can also throw a baseball further than I can.

This is a discussion on Help with qi/ki... I don't have to physically prove anything to YOU.

PS: it would be like trying to prove who can break wind loudest....
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/02/07 11:54 PM

yay, I won!

....oh crap...not really. after a discussion/illustration in person tonight and thinking about it, Chi probably can't be isolate tested since it's dependant and intrinsic to another interacting body.

whoops...my test case to make a point was wrong from misunderstanding the physical parts of Chi, eyrie.

nobody wins.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 12:42 AM

I'll not say another word...
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 09:01 AM

I think that we have several different things going on here.

There are basically 2 different schools of thought here. We have those who train IMA and those who do not. We have people on either side that have devoted a rather large portion of their life to training in something that they find effective. So much so that they are willing to argue the point to the point of challenge. Well folks when it is all said and done I really don't think that there is much of a difference when it comes to high level skill. Anyone that has high level skill ,(especially higher than what you posses) can hit harder than you can possibly imagine.
I think that this is just a higher quality argument of EMA vs. IMA. Each thinks that theirs is the sh!t and better than the other!! I have heard the same arguments between EMA guys and IMA guys about their individual style being better. That is what (in part) makes us good at what we do. We are passionate about our respective arts and that what creates a major drive to train as hard and in depth as we do. It also why we get so crabby when we don't agree with someone else's theories and principles.
I also think that folks are looking at things from their skill levels perspective and their arts perspective. Just because you cant understand someone else's training methods doesn't mean that they don't work.

My personal view on the subject, I think I have a strange piece of middle ground here! I am an IMA guy. I do Bagua, Xingyi, and Qigong. I however really don't focus on the qi aspect of IMA's.
I like to look at things in terms of awareness and the subtle refined mechanics of the body. My thoughts are that you need to have a level of awareness and relaxation to be able to refine the skill necessary to generate big power through the structure of the body. These skills become mysterious when the movements are not obvious and come from the inside out. Some people have refined this skill to the point where it appears that they are not moving at all, but that is not the case, they are you just can't see it.
I really don't care if qi exists or it doesn't. I don't bother with trying to overtly cultivate any type of mysterious energy. I simply train the way my teachers have specified. I focus on feeling my awareness permeate my entire body. I focus on maintaining a harmonious structure while relaxing and moving through space.
It is said the the intent follows the will of the mind, and the energy follows the intent. That is great. I am not going to bother to fixate my mind on qi then if it is following my intent. I am solely going to focus on leading my intent with a calm mind.
Personally I have enjoyed this thread. I think that there are some valuable view points here. It will remain open, however, I just ask that if anyone wants to challenge anyone else that they take that to PM.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 09:58 AM

Fisherman,
that sounds reasonable. I was trying to figure out what "Ed won"??? It looked to me like he was the guy who races me in traffic and drives like hell to beat me to the next stoplight... what's the point?

I'm no more or less convinced of either camp, even though the conversations went all over the place. There's room in the dojo for both schools of thought, though not usually in the "same" dojo... at least not without a good referee.

The next time this argument comes up, we're going to start throwing chi balls at everyone...

Posted by: harlan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 10:07 AM

This whole discussion is why I asked: is it better (for some arts/students/etc.) to NOT address this concept (in a seperate, intellectual way); whether or not 'ki' is addressed directly...different students will enter into the study anyway and from their own perspective.

'A rose by any other name...'
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 10:45 AM

really good recap. I can live with being half-wrong....hey, I've had to live with re-learning that my whole life so far!

Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 01:01 PM

What's more important, being right or being correct? LOL
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 01:44 PM

what's more productive, thinking you are right or learning you are wrong?
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 05:48 PM

Obviously learning is always more productive.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 06:56 PM

Darn good post Chris... OK, I can't help myself, I'll just have to say a few more words...

Quote:

We have people on either side that have devoted a rather large portion of their life to training in something that they find effective. So much so that they are willing to argue the point to the point of challenge.




Sure, not discounting the emotional investment in vested interests... but that is neither conducive to open communication nor shared understanding.

Quote:

Anyone that has high level skill ,(especially higher than what you posses) can hit harder than you can possibly imagine.




And therefore any "tests" are neither here nor there...

Quote:

We are passionate about our respective arts and that what creates a major drive to train as hard and in depth as we do. It also why we get so crabby when we don't agree with someone else's theories and principles.




A little competition is a good thing... but competition in the Latin root sense of "striving together" - not tearing the crap out of each other just to prove a point. It's never about winning or losing. It's always about improving and becoming better.

Quote:

I also think that folks are looking at things from their skill levels perspective and their arts perspective. Just because you cant understand someone else's training methods doesn't mean that they don't work.




Which is exactly what some of us have been trying to say... perception of whose reality? Keeping it in perspective... seeing the forest for the trees... how much more direct do we need to get?

Quote:

My thoughts are that you need to have a level of awareness and relaxation to be able to refine the skill necessary to generate big power through the structure of the body. These skills become mysterious when the movements are not obvious and come from the inside out. Some people have refined this skill to the point where it appears that they are not moving at all, but that is not the case, they are you just can't see it.




Maybe it's time to revisit the vid of the 94 yr old Bagua gentleman... eh Ed??

Quote:

I just ask that if anyone wants to challenge anyone else that they take that to PM.


No one's challenging anyone... well, maybe challenging people's beliefs, and challenging them to look beyond currently established worldviews.

Such debates are really good, even though they do get heated sometimes... but they help me verbalize things in different ways... and hopefully help others see things differently. And of course vice versa....
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 08:45 PM

"Maybe it's time to revisit the vid of the 94 yr old Bagua gentleman..."

nah...we've bothered him enough. he needs his rest.
Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/03/07 10:55 PM

"Maybe it's time to revisit the vid of the 94 yr old Bagua gentleman..."

My problem with the vid is that so many people have come in here talking of quite extrodinary things like shown in that vid, and many of those people have been turned away rejected. Now, just because this man is 94 years old, I'm supposed to believe him more than a younger guy who comes in here saying this and that is 'possible'? Well it's plain and simple, old men do have experience, but this old man could just as easily have experience as a grifter.

So then, where do we (and especially the mods) draw lines and make judgements about what is accepted and not accepted? If a new member posted this vid, he would get shot down in an instant unless he provided proof of claims, and he would probably argue using the same reasons that eyrie does for why proof isn't provided. Now, sure we could give eyrie more benifit of the doubt as a regular, but yet, benifit of the doubt doesn't make the vid more legit.

Where are the lines here? I almost can't post here anymore because I'm afraid I'll insult someone legit by saying they're not, or that I'll say something that someone else thinks isn't legit and get discredited for it.

If this vid is open for discussion, then I think a lot of other worms from the same can should be open for discussion...worms that I never really wanted to discuss. I still think some proof, or at least stronger evidence is needed before we can just accept that vid as a legit discussion topic.


A final note on MY opinion on the vid though- Once again, you can say that my eyes cant see the special skills of the old man, but I have already said that my eyes have already seen the false nature of the younger guy's movements in reaction to the old man. THERE IS NO NEED TO LOOK AT THE OLD MAN, JUST WATCH THE OTHER GUYS!
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 10:41 AM

About this 94 year old Bagua gentleman. There are two possible things going on here.
1. He is an old master who has refined his skill so much that he uses no obvious power.
2. He might have some Bagua skill, however, he is receiving some extra cooperation from the other folks.
My point is that you don't know. Who cares! I am not going to pull my hair out in the old mans defense. Sure it is possible that he has refined his skill but the only way for someone to determine that for sure is to visit the old dude yourself.
Quote:

So then, where do we (and especially the mods) draw lines and make judgements about what is accepted and not accepted?



I draw lines based on what I have experienced during my training. I base my judgments on experience and I accept what I feel could be possible.

Quote:

Where are the lines here? I almost can't post here anymore because I'm afraid I'll insult someone legit by saying they're not, or that I'll say something that someone else thinks isn't legit and get discredited for it.



Where are the lines with the old man video? It is real or it is staged. Those are the lines. What do you have to post that is going to insult someones credibility? There are always different schools of thought. As I said in my other post, we may not be able to grasp and understand each others terminology, but who cares. It is like reading and understanding different languages. You might not be able o understand a different language, but does that mean that it is an ineffective way to communicate?
I agree that the other guys appear to be helping out the old man and that is probably the case. I have also met and trained with people who have a refined level of skill to the degree where they show no obvious power. One second you are up, the next you aren't and you could swear that the guy never moved.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 11:05 AM

and David Blaine does some pretty incredible stuff...I certainly can't explain it - actually, in the back of my mind, it makes me frustrated seeing his demonstrations and not having the foggiest how it's done....but at the same time, I don't want to know and just enjoy the entertainment like a kid with new eyes.

However, If I pay David Blaine to be my teacher...wouldn't I be paying him for guidence to be able to do what he can? and hopefully, with effort, diligence and time on my part, I'd be getting exactly what I invested for.

The thing is, if David Blaine could make a stranger jump in the air without any visible movement on his part...what argument could be made if he had no prior IMA training?

an interesting read, written by someone with extensive IMA training in China from a host of Qigong masters.
http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/sima-nan.html
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 11:38 AM

Lucid -

Quote:

Where are the lines here? I almost can't post here anymore because I'm afraid I'll insult someone legit by saying they're not, or that I'll say something that someone else thinks isn't legit and get discredited for it.




I hope no one here is really afraid to post their opinion on an internet forum. The worst you can be is wrong. If you're wrong, admit it. There is no problem. I have been wrong before, and am willing to admit it.

The only "crime" on this forum is to be wrong and not to admit it.

Re: the 91 y/o Bagua gentleman video, it appears to be fake to me. I am judging this on the lack of obvious mechanics on his part, and the exagerrated mechanics of the disciples in the vid. JMO.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 11:40 AM

Ed, over the years, I've been told many times that I'm exceptionally strong with my grip. I can't explain it, because I have no bulging muscles and actually have torn rotator cuffs in both shoulders, but people I train with tell me I have a "grip of iron". Now, that being said, when I grip someone, I do it mentally from my center, not my hand, and while I still respond to painful extractions of fingers pulled backwards, etc. as defenses, I still (even while out of condition) have the reputation of having an iron grip.

That being said, I have knowledge of how grip actually works, and emphasize that in my jujutsu training... so most of my students also have a "grip of iron". Is it "ki" or is it "memorex"? My medical doctor who treats me for tendonitis can't explain it, and has an almost automatic routine of telling his nurses to "come in here and see this" everytime he treats me, because I do my wrist exercises for him to show my flexibility and define the problem with tendonitis for him. He locates the tendon affected by which exercise makes it hurt.

When I first started in Judo, my teacher had an exercise called "making yourself heavy", and it involved (again) using your center to overcome the lifting of your opponent in his attack. In Aikido, one of the principles is "weight underside", which is another way of doing the same thing.
In Judo, we had different ways of overcoming that in our opponents, and in Aikido it's done by "taking the lead" in the technique. While I can't explain that in words, I know how to do it, and how to make it work, and how to overcome my opponent's ability to do the same thing.

Kind of like "radio waves", we know how to generate them, can see their effects, and can make use of them, so why is it that ki has to be different to be believeable? If it doesn't exist, there's a significant hole in my training that has up to this time been filled with this "myth", and has drawn the curtain of ignorance over millions of martial arts players over the years. Skepticism really does have a place, but it has to be "rational skepticism" that acknowledges that there are things out there that can't be explained in words or "currently defined scientific principles". Maybe ki is defined as simply "how you train to use your body's energy". It doesn't have to be magic for someone not to understand it or know all the details.

Posted by: sandan

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 11:47 AM

your trying to hard it took me a couple of years before i started to be able to use my Ki, slow down remember everything comes to he who waits. you sound quite young if this is the case you have all your life ahead of you relax and enjoy the journey son.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 11:58 AM

The man's name is Tie Lao and he teaches at Mount Wudang Retreat in China for US$2,695 per month. He also sells a DVD course that has 130 disk sets (3 hours per) for US$29.95 per set.

just thought anyone taking the advice to 'just visit him' should know.


I can find out more if anyone's really that interested.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 12:10 PM

I believe you Grady and I agree. I do see the term differently now and it overlaps with what I've been taught and didn't know it by a term.

I fell into the trap of judging the term with all of it's baggage attached instead of seeing it for what it is (and what it's not). can't blame me though, there are lot's of people making alot of money off of that baggage.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 01:13 PM

btw...how careless of me. that 2,695/month was incorrect.

http://www.qigonghealingtreatment.com/Registoronline.htm

it's actually US $2,995 per 15 days. so about $5,990 per month.
Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 02:46 PM

I guess I'm just a little surprised that this vid is still a legit topic of discussion, while Steve Rowe's vid (a couple of threads down) hasn't gotten any responses.

Really, I don't care if the old man has a qi-engine of over 900 horsepower, if that engine isn't turning any wheels through his drive train, the car isn't going anywhere. I could be terribly wrong about this, but I thought that an internal skill had to manifest on an external level to produce an external result. -Meaning, internal movement, breathing, mind intent...etc... ..Doesn't it still need to be directed through the body's structure to produce an external result (such as sending someone flying backwards)? Without manifesting the power through the structure all the way to the surface external movements, isn't it just like revving an engine without shifting out of neutral?
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 03:52 PM

People have been making money off martial arts ever since the first big time promoter, Joe Corley, started the "Battle of Atlanta" oh, so many years ago... even before that, I suspect.

The recipe is simple... take something that's not widely known, add a little flash, some music, costumes, and then make a lot of noise about it being the "ultimate" in whatever it is... You can sell Ki training... combat self-defense... or any other legitimate art using that same formula... only the principles of those legitimate arts usually preclude you from doing it.

I probably could have been a rich man by now if I didn't care what a student walked away with "in the name of martial arts". Rather than that, however, I want to see them excel at what they're doing, and the ones who "abandon the farm" to go money-crazy and start making their fortune off suckers deserve all the criticism and grief that follows that particular path. They deserve to be called charlatans, and fakers, and con-men... because that's what they are.

Got to go now... ULTIMATE FIGHTING is coming on TV... I wouldn't want to miss it on PAY PER VIEW...

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 05:59 PM

Quote:

an interesting read, written by someone with extensive IMA training in China from a host of Qigong masters.
http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/sima-nan.html





China's James Randi...

LW... I sense some sort of logic disconnect here. Are you suggesting that youth = strength and that old age = weak? So from YOUR perspective, the old man *must* get his a$$ beaten by the younger man otherwise it's not "real"?

Now that's an interesting perception filter...

BTW... this discussion is fine... but perhaps is more relevant in its own thread.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 06:22 PM

oops... the article was about "Sima Nan" but was written by 'Don Mainfort'. sorry.

yes, like Randy, Sima Nan even has a 'Million dollar challenge' equivalent. I agree...kindof off-topic, sorry about that.
Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 07:45 PM

Quote:



LW... I sense some sort of logic disconnect here. Are you suggesting that youth = strength and that old age = weak? So from YOUR perspective, the old man *must* get his a$$ beaten by the younger man otherwise it's not "real"?




No. I never suggested that. Try again.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/04/07 08:07 PM

Just clarifying... in case I did mis-read you.... which I think I did...

OK, you're talking about the legitimacy of the vid... BTW, when I said revisit the vid.... I meant, looking at it again from a different perspective...

But yeah, OK, I can see that there might be a whole new can-o-worms with regard to what is or is not legit, but such things are based on individual experience, and unless you've touched hands and felt it, it is hard to prove what "experience feels like" in any case.
Posted by: Kempoman

High level skill - 03/04/07 08:41 PM




The thing is, if David Blaine could make a stranger jump in the air without any visible movement on his part...what argument could be made if he had no prior IMA training?





David, is a magician not a IMA practictioner. They would be performing a magic trick.


Quote:

I get you that there are IMA people that can hit hard. That was never the question, though. The question is "is there something definably different about the results of ki-based training compared to non-ki based training?"

If it's just mechanics, which some folks are saying that it is, but.........

How can we define the difference? Lots of people can hit hard.




Matt, it is not hitting hard. It is hitting unlike anthing you have ever experienced before. I was struck on the arm
during a demonstration by Dr. Hampton and passed out from the impact and spent the next couple of hours puking my guts up and rubbing jow on my arm.
This was from a simple slow movement 'parting wild horses mane'. Comparing my striking(this goes for any of the other abilites) ability to Dr. Hampton is like comparing my eight year old' striking ability to mine.
It is a process. Conditioning, mechanics and practice. Yi, li, qi and shen. It is really amazing and there are only a few who have it.




Quote:


KM, if it's all the same, could we keep to just what each one of us can do, and not invoke 3rd parties to make our points for us?





You asked earlier in the thread for IMA people who were highly skilled, no?


Quote:

I believe what you are saying is true, and take it at face value those gentleman you mention can hit harder than me.





I really don't care what you believe, since you are unwilling to go and find out for yourself.

Like Chris said in a previous post...

Quote:

Anyone that has high level skill ,(especially higher than what you posses) can hit harder than you can possibly imagine.




...you feel unable to respond.


Quote:

The question is, since you are the one participating in this thread and not them, what can YOU do from having trained in IMA that other non-IMAists here could not possibly do?





I have never crossed hands with the other IMA'ist here before, but I can launch you across the room with the smallest of movements, split a coconut with a slap, stand firm in place while you try to shoulder tackle me and bounce off like a basketball.

I have no idea if others here can do these same things, and anyone is welcome to come to Houston to verify these things (just as some have in the past).

I however do NOT possess, what is known as high-level skill.

Qi training is a misnomer. Energy training is a misnomer unless you are doing qigong.

Training the mind, body and spirit to function as one is what it is all about.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: High level skill - 03/04/07 10:50 PM

Quote:

David, is a magician not a IMA practictioner. They would be performing a magic trick.



could not an IMA practictioner ALSO be a magician? isn't that one of your listed hobbies in your profile?

Quote:

I was struck on the arm
during a demonstration by Dr. Hampton and passed out from the impact and spent the next couple of hours puking my guts up and rubbing jow on my arm.
This was from a simple slow movement 'parting wild horses mane'.




weirdest thing...I also threw-up after reading this:

Quote:

I can launch you across the room with the smallest of movements, split a coconut with a slap, stand firm in place while you try to shoulder tackle me and bounce off like a basketball.




anyone here from Tejas looking for a field trip? have you ever visited bullshido.com and made these claims kempoman? now THAT would be something.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: High level skill - 03/04/07 11:16 PM

Tone... it's all in the tone....

Tell me, if one can do these things in a training environment, or at a fraction of one's full power, what makes you think it can't be applied in any other venue, or under pressure? And would it even be necessary to do so? What would be the point?

I've seen some of these things done... I've had some of these things done to me (except for the coconut bit). Trust me... you don't want someone with such skills to hit you.... much less at full power. You have to be braindead to want to even think about trying.

If anything, this type of training makes you extremely sensitive to force, so much so, that a simple handshake is sufficient for you to determine if the person's skill level is better than yours or not...

That said, some of us still have a long way to go.... to even contemplate the level of skill Kempoman is talking about at HIS level....
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: High level skull - 03/05/07 12:00 AM

was my tone off color again? damn..I was trying so hard to keep that in check. I'll try harder.

just to make sure, I need to ask...kempoman: can you impact a hanging heavy bag with equal visible power using that same minimal movement which sends someone across the room? yes or no will do. thanks, man.


(btw eyrie, the coconut trick is easy )
Posted by: eyrie

Re: High level skull - 03/05/07 12:05 AM

Great... I've got a bunch of GREEN coconuts here for you to crack open... WITH the husk still on...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: High level skull - 03/05/07 12:14 AM

lol...I only did the brown ones ...not too many coconut trees around here. Can you crack open a green one?

I thought we agreed there were no isolated tests for this kind of power generation? what happened?

are we back to "if I can smash a coconut, and you can't...." - what argument does that settle?


and since 'smashing coconuts' was listed among the feats by kempoman to illustrate his own level of IMA understanding...thats a force directed onto an inanimate object. one would suppose force upon other inanimate objects can be tested for equal level of understanding.

breaking a coconut.
6" punch thru 3 boards.
throwing a baseball.
etc
etc..

but you agreed internal energy is intrinsic to utilizing another's body mechanics against them. now you are drifting back to it also being externally testable in isolation. which is it?


Posted by: Kempoman

Re: High level skill - 03/05/07 12:49 AM

Quote:

David, is a magician not a IMA practictioner. They would be performing a magic trick.
could not an IMA practictioner ALSO be a magician? isn't that one of your listed hobbies in your profile?




Yes,but David is not an IMA practicioner.


Quote:

anyone here from Tejas looking for a field trip?




Right, too much of a puss to come to Texas yourself then. Noted.


Quote:

have you ever visited bullshido.com and made these claims kempoman? now THAT would be something.




I have had several discussions with Phrost. Have been invited to a McThrowdown and declined the offer.

--KM
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: High level skull - 03/05/07 12:53 AM

Quote:


and since 'smashing coconuts' was listed among the feats by kempoman to illustrate his own level of IMA understanding...thats a force directed onto an inanimate object. one would suppose force upon other inanimate objects can be tested for equal level of understanding.

breaking a coconut.
6" punch thru 3 boards.
throwing a baseball.
etc
etc..

but you agreed internal energy is intrinsic to utilizing another's body mechanics against them. now you are drifting back to it also being externally testable in isolation. which is it?




I have gone zero-inch through two 1" boards and three inches through three. Have seen Rick Moneymaker make it through four.

IMA is about both using the entire body in a specific manner to genrate whole-body power and using the opponents motion as well. Yang/Yin and many combinations inbetween.

Quote:








Yes, you are.

--KM
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: High level skull - 03/05/07 01:37 AM

lol... I see, you don't react well to logical arguments. bullying doesn't work with me. keep your emotions in check. the bullshido comment was humor - although me deciding not coming to see you and you deciding not going out to see phrost is different how?


it's not your skill thats in question, I'm not qualified to make that assessment, nor am I willing to invest in a trip to Texas for you to beat me over the head with my comedy club.

everyone's words here have to stand on their own merit....otherwise, whats the point of a forum? advertisement space of claims?

maybe you didn't read a couple pages back in the thread, but the understanding was that Ki/Chi/Qi could not be isolate tested against an inanimate object.

now you are saying it can. my simple question is, if a non-IMAist can demonstrate the same things that fall into the category of 'hidden' or 'mysterious' IMA power, then what would that tell us?
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Help with Qi/Ki........ - 03/05/07 08:14 AM

Quote:

I guess I'm just a little surprised that this vid is still a legit topic of discussion, while Steve Rowe's vid (a couple of threads down) hasn't gotten any responses.



Of course the 'old man video' is still a legit topic especially if we are talking about subtle, refined, non-obvious power. Actually I think that there is a great contrast between the two videos.
In the old man video, (even though without question he is receiving some help), we are seeing a demonstration of hidden refined power. With Bossman's clip we see an example of obvious power. Although the uke is being tossed about quite a bit, there is still cooperative demonstration going on.

To keep on your engine metaphor.
Have you ever been in a four wheel drive vehicle and you put it in low gear? You have a great deal of power at your disposal although it doesn't appear that you are moving.

Quote:

Doesn't it still need to be directed through the body's structure to produce an external result (such as sending someone flying backwards)?



Sure if that is the result you are looking for. If you are looking for a big obvious display of power then you will get an obvious result. Non-obvious/hidden power still produces results however they usually manifest on a more subtle level. This is why I am skeptical about the old man.

Quote:

Without manifesting the power through the structure all the way to the surface external movements, isn't it just like revving an engine without shifting out of neutral?



That right, however, you can make things so connected that when "one part moves all parts move". You can do this to a refined level in where the slightest movement generates big power because everything is moving together. So, even a small non-obvious movement can generate big power.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: High level skull - 03/05/07 10:14 AM

Quote:

just to make sure, I need to ask...kempoman: can you impact a hanging heavy bag with equal visible power using that same minimal movement which sends someone across the room? yes or no will do. thanks, man.




Yes, though effect is greater on the human body though because of its reaction system.



Quote:

lol... I see, you don't react well to logical arguments.




Please refer me to the logical part of the argument that I responded incorrectly to.


Quote:

bullying doesn't work with me. keep your emotions in check. the bullshido comment was humor - although me deciding not coming to see you and you deciding not going out to see phrost is different how?




My emotions are in check. The bullshido comment was a challenge. Phrost invited me to come and participate in a McThrowdown to test my xingyiquan skills, but with rules specifcally designed to emphasize grappling and deemphasize anything else.

Being invited to fight is very different from being invited to come test a set of skills.

Phrost extended the former, I extended the latter.




Quote:

it's not your skill thats in question, I'm not qualified to make that assessment, nor am I willing to invest in a trip to Texas for you to beat me over the head with my comedy club.

everyone's words here have to stand on their own merit....otherwise, whats the point of a forum? advertisement space of claims?




There comes a time when words cease to have value, then it is time for action. I tried in vain to explain ground strength over via e-mail to a forum member for a couple of months, when words failed he drove from Dallas for the day to
1) Test my skills

upon finding them valid

2) Learn.

I stood in place for over 1 hour to allow him to repeatedly crash into me at full run from 15 yards away.

It was a good day. Anyone else on the forum is welcome to test the same or any other skill that I may or may not possess. But I won't fight anyone unless forced to.


Quote:

maybe you didn't read a couple pages back in the thread, but the understanding was that Ki/Chi/Qi could not be isolate tested against an inanimate object. Now you are saying it can.




Ki/chi/qi would have no effect on an inanimate object at all. If you are referring to a strike using IMA principles, then you would be mostly correct. You could show the effect of connected-whole-body power, but not complete IMA principles.

That would require input(force to be acted upon) from the uke.



Quote:

my simple question is, if a non-IMAist can demonstrate the same things that fall into the category of 'hidden' or 'mysterious' IMA power, then what would that tell us?




Lets take an example of pushing someone.

Assumptions:
1) Subject A is a IMA'ist
2) Subject B is not
3) Both test subjects are of comparable size and strength and fitness levels.
4) Both subjects are acted upon by the same tester.
5) Tester is of greater physical strength than the test subjects
6) Duration of force is 5 seconds.
7) The push is constant, and from the side (pushing the shoulder with both hands)

Test 1)

Subject assume a postion similar in nature to 'ready' position or wuji.

Subjects are acted upon (pushed) by the tester.

Subject A uses body connection and peng jin to redirect the force into the ground.

Subject B uses physical muscular strength to overcome an opposing force.

IMO you would see the following.

1) Subject A would seem to be relaxed and stable, using peng to redirect the force into the ground.

2) Subject B exerting much more of his own strength to overcome the incoming force, and thereby displaying outward or external attributes thereof.
- Muscular tension
- Local muscluar flexion



Test 2)

Assumptions:
1) Subject A is a IMA'ist
2) Subject B is not
3) Both test subjects are of comparable size and strength and fitness levels.
4) Both subjects are acted upon by the same tester.
5) Tester is of greater physical strength than the test subjects
6) Duration of force is up to 1 minute.
7) The push is constant, and from the side (pushing the shoulder with both hands)


Subjects assume a postion similar in nature to 'ready' position or wuji.

Subjects are acted upon (pushed) by the tester.

Subject A uses body connection and peng jin to redirect the force into the ground.

Subject B uses physical muscular strength to overcome an opposing force.

IMO you would see the following.

1) Subject A would seem to be relaxed and stable, using peng to redirect the force into the ground.

2) Subject B exerting much more of his own strength to overcome the incoming force, and thereby displaying outward or external attributes thereof.
- Muscular tension
- Local muscluar flexion
- Muscular failure.
Eventually being overcome by the greater force.

I hope that this clarifies it somewhat.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: High level skull - 03/05/07 11:05 AM

yes it does. thanks for being specific.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: High level skull - 03/06/07 06:39 AM

Neat explanation Kempoman, thanks!
Posted by: pathfinder7195

Re: High level skull - 04/12/07 12:48 AM

Science and Buddhist monks.
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=13453&ch=biztech

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html
Posted by: harlan

Tummo - 04/12/07 10:32 AM

Now...that IS interesting. Thanks for the link.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html




But 'tummo' meditation is a by-product of the burning off of karma...and not chi related...right???
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Tummo - 04/13/07 01:57 PM

Quote:

But 'tummo' meditation is a by-product of the burning off of karma...and not chi related...right???





As I've said in another Thread that "chi" is like flour which can be used to make bread or noodles -- look different but all made from flour nevertheless; a basic material which can form the foundation of any endeavour one wishes to take, be it spiritual or martial. The generation of abnormally high body temperatures is one of the first signs of progress in chi development. When I was a student in London during the 70s, and having came from a tropical climate country, the cold winters were new to me and I used to circulate my chi to keep warm, not to the extent of the monks of course.

The meditation by the monks were described in the Harvard article as 'advanced meditation' Those were not advanced meditations, but meditations practiced to an advanced level. All meditations are basically simple, but it's the years and years of practice that give 'advanced' results produced by the monks.

I do know the meditation method the monks used; it's not much different from other 'chi gung' methods but the monks practiced them as a way of life and not only at weekends; it's all basically circulation of the chi at high speeds round the body and if it's true that 'chi' is electromagnetic in nature, then it explains the 'heat' generated when it is circulated at high speeds.

But first and foremost you have got to be able to circulate the chi in the first place and that's the difficult part; but after that it's a matter of what you want to do with it. The dangers of chi circulation is that people are tempted to circulate it round the brain to get psychic powers and that's when you hear of them getting mental disorders -- what the chinese called 'entering into evil fire' -- which accounts for the secretive nature of such practices and therefore not freely taught.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Tummo - 04/13/07 02:11 PM

Yeah...siddhis...not so fun.

Quote:

The dangers of chi circulation is that people are tempted to circulate it round the brain to get psychic powers and that's when you hear of them getting mental disorders -- what the chinese called 'entering into evil fire' -- which accounts for the secretive nature of such practices and therefore not freely taught.


Posted by: laf7773

Re: Tummo - 04/25/07 05:59 PM

I really wish i still had the time and patience for these discussions. It's been a long time since there was any REAL discussion in this section, i'm glad to see things finally starting to pick up again. Due to a lack of training options here, i can now see where the term "it's all Greek to me" came from, i'm currently in a "re-evaluation" stage in my training. I'm taking a long hard look at my beliefs in the martial arts and what brought me to those conclusions. I'm looking at what works or doesn't work for me and why. Is it due to improper training or just impracticle? If it works or doesn't work, why? I might even try to throw a couple of chiballs... right..any way. Just thought i'd check in and see whats going on...what's up with having 4 and 5 mods for each section? Things gotten that bad around here?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Tummo - 04/26/07 03:20 AM

Quote:

I'm looking at what works or doesn't work for me and why. Is it due to improper training or just impracticle?




What doesn't work to-day does not mean anything; things look very different when a couple more years of hard consistent work is put into it, especially when it comes to the IMA where things (unlike the EMAs) are never obvious and which requires a whole transformation of your mind and body. It was only in the last decade or so that I realise this, though I had done some IMA since the 70s.

I also realise that it is not looking for a better teacher that makes the difference, it is just doing and doing what you already know that really counts.
Posted by: laf7773

Re: Tummo - 04/26/07 11:58 AM

I wasn't referring to IMA specifically, more of MA in general. I'm not looking for "instruction" of any kind anymore, just working with what i have and with others i work with. I'm by no means an expert in anything but "a couple more years of hard consistent work"? I'm sure the 20+ years i've put in allows me to take a step back and evaluate what i've learned over the years to see why certain things work or don't work for ME. Thanks for the words of wisdom though, i'm sure i'm a better person for it.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Tummo - 04/26/07 12:04 PM

Quote by laf -

Quote:

I'm sure the 20+ years i've put in allows me to take a step back and evaluate what i've learned over the years to see why certain things work or don't work for ME. Thanks for the words of wisdom though, i'm sure i'm a better person for it.




Don't feel bad, bro. I said something very similar earlier in this thread and pretty much got laughed at.