Neigong

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/19/06 11:56 PM

I had a thought out question I was developing with terms, jargon, fairly complex and obscure foreign concepts, etc... and after relating it to back my objectives, it gradually transformed back into a simple question. weird.

btw, thank-you for the replies thus far. before I ask the 'simple' question, this is how I view ki/chi:

These are my own words and concepts, so maybe I use ways of writing about this that are goofy.

I beleive ki is synergy ...not energy. Synergy in the combined effect of:
* center of gravity manipulation. (rooting/shifting)
---- balance in relation to self, ground and opponent.

* muscle group timing. (kime/focus, loose until impact)
---- This includes breathing, and thought/emotion rythyms.

* 3-dimensional space/time (positioning)
----- positioning relative to opponent in real-time.

This is ki/chi to me. I can see how thinking of all of these things in real time would be much easier to imagine it as 'energy'...but I think that's simply a shortcut concept and runs risk of being misinterpreted if the components aren't defined. I believe ki is non-linear...and therefore the shortest distance in moving ki between A to B is a curved path.

These ways of thinking about ki may have less depth than what you've been exposed to, but it fits into Goju principles nicely...now, if only I could DO it smoother.

which leads me to my question:

What solo drills can I work on to help me remove brute force intent?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/20/06 12:10 AM

after writing that, I googled a combo of terms I chose to use and came up with here:
http://www.shugenkai.com/ki.html

Interesting.

seems I fall into the 'pragmatic', 'rational skeptic' category of the way I think of ki. lol no real surprize there for a Mr. Roboto.

Posted by: CVV

Re: Neigong - 05/20/06 03:27 AM

Ed,
I liked the synergy - energy thing but you need the synergy to let the energy travel unrestricted to the point of focus.
In sanchin the focus is at the end of a certain technique (punch or block). I was thaught that even in sanchin you relax and tense. The tensho is more obvious as the movements are more fluid. All energy is harvested in the tanden (=source of power) and needs to be released through the contact points of the chosen technique (fists/palm/fingers/foot). This building and releasing of energy needs correct breathing, correct mindset, correct posture (body). Ki enbodies this attitude (breathing/mindset,intent/body,posture) and manifests eventually in fa jing, explosive power, when realeased in technique.
About short range punch and power, it is all in relaxing and tensing at the right moment. It starts from the hip and needs maximum tensing at point of contact. The synergy needs to adapt a bit to have correct enery release.(try it with a vertical fist or keiko-ken fist, it's easier I think).
About the metaphysical, I am sceptic too but after sanchin training I feel lighter, sometimes tingling a bit. I can stretch deeper and muscles feel more relaxed.
Once I had a strange thing happen during a heavy sparring session (I wanted to hurt him) where I projected the guy without touching him. Never was able to redo it, maybe it was a coincidence of unknowns and my and his perception of the circumstance was not correct, did feel strange though.
The difference in power release between shorin end shorei I think is in the locking of the lower body. Shorei systems lock themselves into the sanchin dachi even after the power release. The shorin systems will not and release immediatly after delivering the technique. This is however not always the case for shorei as in the more advanced kata there are natural transitions from sanchin to heiko dachi when advancing.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/20/06 06:10 AM

Well, Ed... in short... no...

Ki/qi/prana is an umbrella term to describe a number of phenomena. Ki is not the phenomena itself, but the manifestation of such phenomena can be indicative of the presence of ki.

The ki you are specifically referring to has to do with the fascia and connective tissue where it originates. It's the only one we're really interested in from a martial perspective.

So what we're training in neigong (again, lit. INTERNAL WORK) is the fascia, tendons, connective tissue and how they attach to the skeletal structure. Forget about "ki" for the moment - it's a side benefit of the training as well as a method of training vis-a-vis "qi gong" or "kiko". I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves for the moment.

Imagine you have a sheath of rawhide covering your bones all over your body, under your skin. Essentially that's what the fascia is. Think of it like a "suit" you're wearing under your skin and over the bones, and the "external" muscles that you're already used to using lies over that suit.

Basically, that's what meant by "internal". So now we know what we're meant to be training, the obvious question is not "How do we train it?", but rather "What are the basic principles?".

Recall that the "how" is merely variations of the same principles... vis-a-vis kata, ukemi, yoga, standing etc. etc. etc.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/20/06 08:08 AM

CVV - The Goju/Shorei I'm working on doesn't have any notion of locking (except maybe for the split second of impact or transmition). the 'power release' as you refer it, is also used to charge the next movement - not dissipate to the ground.
As far as non-touch injury, I've done it sparring but it was explainable - I moved barely out of the way of a fully committed attack, and the opponent hyperextended his elbow. I didn't make contact yet he got hurt.

Thats probably different than you mean. I kindof don't want to go there. anomolies don't interest me yet, I want to concentrate on the reproducable meat and potatoes.

eyrie - thats the logic path I followed when wording my question, and it led me to chi. since the development of nei jin seems to be inclusive of all the things described by chi. and neigong gets you there.
my western mind seems to break things down into separate components, work each component individually(basics), then trying to blend them(advanced). I think neigong describes training that blend, but since it's from a different starting point, it hard to grasp. if we try to break it down it disappears and looses it's 'form'.

but now I'm getting bogged down in concepts, which I'm trying not to do.

so I'll back up like you suggest and lets talk principles of nei jin. (not fa jing). btw, to anyone reading...make sure you don't make the same mistake I did while reading...'jin'(power) is not the same as 'jing'(essence).

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/20/06 08:40 AM

Neijin! Yeees! Now you're getting somewhere!

It's difficult to talk about the various components individually. But it can be done. The trick is defining where the starting point is. I think if you think of the starting point as the development of this musculo-fascial/ musculo-tendinous "suit", it will start to make sense.

As for some of the principles, relaxation and breathing have already been mentioned. Would you like to hazard a guess at others???

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/20/06 01:19 PM

lets focus on just that for a sec. relaxation and breathing. I suppose it could be expanded into a whole field unto itself. 'behavioural kinesiology' I believe is the fancy term of study. I see it no more than a combination of body mechanic alignment as it relates to psychology/emotion responses. some talk about it in terms of energy meridians. I'll get lost if the conversation turns to meridians...bear with me....

so an extreme example is as an untrained person might 'freeze' and experience shortness of breath and collapsed chest, tense muscles, etc as a result of an incoming attack and natural response to threat/fear.
First step is in training to let go of that. The very first steps of Sanchin practice, beyond committing the sequence of movements to memory, is learning timed breathing to controled body dynamic. half-speed slows down and helps the student to get the timing right which later may be sped up. Sanchin is the only structured tool I know for doing this.
I'm only a recent observer of Aikido. From watching Aikido class (I've been watching about 1 class a week) and how it is taught, it appears the breathing and relaxation is timed with actual drill practice, slow speed and then gradually sped up. so the learning of this is simultaneous and concurrent to any given application/2-man drill. Throughout the class, I notice frequent corrections and reminders to the students when to inhale/exhale, center/lower, flow/relax etc. I was struck by how familiar these breathing and relaxing tips sounded.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/20/06 06:49 PM

OK, you're talking about somatics, which is an entire field of study in itself. These include the works of Feldenkrais, Alexander and Rolf (and others).

The mind-body connection and its effect on emotions, psyche and the autonomic nervous system is well documented - something the ancient Chinese already knew about at least 5000 years earlier.

I'm not going to delve much into meridians, suffice to say that these were initially thought to be channels (like a tube) in the musculo-fascia structures.

I think it's much simpler than that.

For the moment, let's focus on relaxing and breathing. When you "relax", what are you relaxing? When you breath, what are you working on?

Both have to do with the "suit" we're talking about. ButterflyPalm mentioned "shrinkage" - think of it as contracting the suit. When you relax, you're stretching the suit. (Think yoga!). Same thing when you use the breath. Except you're using the breath to pressurize the suit.

IOW, you're using these to EXERCISE the suit.

Forget about movement and timing (in relation to paired exercises) for now. Movement and paired training is merely an application of using the suit in various ways.

For the moment, focus on the suit and what happens when you stretch and contract it and when you pressurize it.

There's other stuff related to how to use the suit to generate power, store power and release power, but there's something else that must happen first.

Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 09:25 AM

Interesting topic thus far folks!

I do several different kinds of neigong practices. Each of the exercises can be done either with a fierce/fajing intent, or they can be done with a lighter intent so that you are primarily focused on listening to the body and its internal reaction to structural changes in the body.
Either way, the exercises are primarily focused on the usage of the mind. IMO - the mind is one of the most important aspects of neigong training. The mind must be brought into the body in order to 'feel' what is happening.
I think that it is very helpful to have stand alone exercises to focus on rather than trying to meditate the mind deeper into the body while trying to move through an entire form with the same mind set.
If I begin with a set group of movements and use my neigong practice then I can later expand this to other ranges of motion and eventually work towards connecting all the pieces to they harmonize the body and maximum power is acheived.
I do the neigong training in both martial and health/spiritual oriented ways. I am working to progress to a point where I can have both of these converge.
When doing things with a martial intent, I still carry the same principle, however, my mind is different. There is a certain amount of intensity or fierceness that I apply to the training.
When doing the training for health it is more of a relaxed qigong type of training.
I find both of these to be quite energizing, but the energies feel distinctly different.

Just my $0.02...

Posted by: CVV

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 01:24 PM

First thing sanchin teaches is to have tension in the ge-tanden (point below the navel, where you cough). Then it teaches you how to keep tension while breathing in and out and how to relax/tense in coordination with breathing in/out and performing technique. THis tension in the getanden is the most basic thing for karate I think and I guess for all forms of MA.Without it technique will have no power. When you have awaerness of this you can go further with the mind. The mind will guide the intent, at first concious later unconcious.
(at first only mind knows and we need to train to let the body know), but at that point you feel when it's wrong so you can correct.
Ed, your analogie towards untrained and freezing up might be correct. At least when you always have a reserve in the getanden, even while breathing in, you can immediatly react and move/block/counter/whatever breathing out and having power to do it. This is in my opinion basic. You can disrupt this by attacking the body and taking their breath away. In that sense, iron body refers to the state where you can take punishment without being affected. All contact related exercise (sport or for real) have this notion and it is inherent to the sanchin training.
Butterflypalm said to imigine breathing thru the skin, I will try this. Up till now, I only imagined chi flowing into the getanden while breathing in and then chi flowing to the point of contact while breathing out. I imagined going in thru the nose into the getanden and going out through the technique while breathing out.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 02:37 PM

I think I'm following the concepts so far. not to rush anything, but what's next? discussing intent?

from how I see it, intent is commitment, confidence, strategy and focus/concentration. when combined with a relaxed and sychronized 'suit', it becomes conceptually, a projection of will. please don't talk in terms of 'no touch' this or that or mind bending spoons etc. What I think of is more like how atheletes describe as being 'in the zone'.

as far as I know, the only drills for developing this is years of doing.

Posted by: CVV

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 04:50 PM

I see different types of intent. When training solo I intent maximum power release. When with partner sometimes speed & timing, sometimes how to overcome distance.
In partner drills they are all concious. In free fight they get unconcious and then your in the zone as you call it.
But in real conflict, there should be no concious thaught anymore. Not in the fights I was in and 'won'. In the ones I lost, there was hesitation, the mind was interfearing with doubt and I had trouble overcoming distance or what angle to chose or what technique to use.
Once the body is trained and the intent is clear, you are a formidable opponent. By training you get confidence in yourselve and know and accept your limitations.
In this concept of neigong, the intent of the technique should be clear and as such executed. The sanchin seiken zuki or nukite technique should be intented to penetrate thru the point of contact. The blocks should break arms. This should be executed in a seemingly effortless and fluid way. The tensho is to balance again and the intent is to cool down and restore energy levels. Sometimes I turn it around and train tensho with martial intent and sanchin with 'restore energy levels' intent.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 08:57 PM

Nope. Forget intent for the moment. Intent (and all the mental visualization stuff) is part of the exercise and also what you're training.

The "something else" that must happen first, and which you already alluded to is using the whole "suit". How do we do that?

In a word...connection.

Basically, the focus of the exercise is to coordinate parts of your body so that the suit is working as a whole unit, supported from the spine, which is strung like a string of pearls from the crown to the coccyx.

The other thing which must happen is using the ground reaction force and accessing the force through the body to various places - the hands being a good place to start.

So.... the foot bone is connected to the ankle bone is connected to the knee bone, yada yada yada... you get the picture.

If you can't get this part, don't jump ahead just yet.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 10:13 PM

you just described 'structual body mechanics' with alot more than 3 words.

or did I miss something?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 10:32 PM

Apparently, there's structural mechanics and there's structural mechanics.

Which one are you referring to?

I'm talking about the first stage of connecting feet to hands using the "suit".

There's the next stage (of "ki black magic") where you bypass the connections altogether and jump the "short-cut" from feet to hands or center to hands.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 10:42 PM

Can I ask a noob question, for clarification? The basic level is learning to move muscle/bone/fascia/ligaments in a connected way to deliver force, and the advanced level is when the connectivity is so developed that one 'sees' the energy being moved?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/21/06 11:01 PM

Oh, and what comes from the ground, should work in reverse too.

Here's a little experiment to see if you're using "external" muscle and structure, or if you're using "internal" redirection of forces.

Have someone push you on the chest. Imagine that where their hand is placed, is your shoulder, and their shoulder is your hand. Have them push you and see if you can redirect the push to the ground. They should feel like they're pushing against the ground.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 12:12 AM

energy conservation. nothing is lost, it's just transferred. the release powers the restore and vice-versa. thats part of what I consider body mechanics. structual mechanics is what I consider to be transmission....which is the point between the release and restore.

so far we are well within the realm of physics. it's only the concepts which are starting to sound like jedi mind tricks.

imagining to redirect pressure on my chest isn't going to do anything, unless I slightly redirect the natural force vectors of my body structure. I can do that 2 ways, either yeild to the force exerted on me, or deflect that force....depending on which way I chose to pivot my axis.

ok, so I've got my elasti-respitory-exto-suit on, I understand the conservation of energy and redirecting/yeilding principles....now what?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 12:33 AM

wait a sec...although I understand the concepts of redirection and yeilding, I want to come back to those later and talk about specific drills to work on to making it smoother. most of my previous practice has been sharp angular deflecting with force. which is why my drill partners were going home with bruises on their arms...which was the indisputable proof I was doing it wrong.

One of the areas I am currently working on is the method of 'soft' yeilding and redirection. timing is not the problem for me, it's mostly in rotating my core WITH the guard....seems simple, and it is, but I've been doing counter-rotation hip stuff for years (this also works the elastic-conservation principle, but just in a different way - more like as a tourquing force). works well when young and quick and has good power gen, but I think where this thread is leading is more efficient ways to do the same thing....which is what my current Goju Sensei has been showing - it's a challenge to communicate it into words and so far in this thread, it's fun trying...

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 12:36 AM

Yeah elasto-boy... that's redirect the push without moving your feet, shifting your body angle, or bracing, bucko!

Try it. I bet you your 11 y/o could push you over....;)

Oh, we're well within the realms of physics (aka "natural laws").... no "magic" or mysticism here... (we'll talk about Jedi mind tricks later...)

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 12:56 AM

...but I'm allowed to bend knees and pivot core slightly right? if not, I should pause the topic there for a while until you come back down to earth, aikijedi-master.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 01:05 AM

Well, Ed, you asked how this is done, and I'm telling you...

Sure you can bend the knees and pivot your core, but that would be "cheating" wouldn't it? If it were that easy, there'd be Jedi masters from Yoda to Skywalker

Stand with feet shoulder width apart - not in forward/bow stance. See if you can use the "suit" to distribute the load. Don't bend at the knees, don't pivot your waist.

You might want to ask your 11 y/o to go gently at first....

I'm not saying that this stuff will give you Jedi-like skillz - it won't. It's just a different way of moving and doing things. A different way of using "strength". Think of it as giving you something to make you a better "labourer".

Otherwise, we might as well give up and go lift weights or something.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 03:28 AM

Secrets? There are no secrets...

The caeveat is, of course, don't try jumping ahead of yourself.

Obviously, it's a way of learning to move and duh... maybe have some application for fighting. However, this is a STATIC exercise.

So for this STATIC exercise, there is no overt movement - more like a series of micro-adjustments in your body's "anti-gravity" mechanism.

Seriously, if you can do this experiment (which is a variant of the "unbendable arm" trick)... you'll understand what I mean. Then we can move on to the other stuff.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 07:28 AM

lol. the unbendable arm trick, unmovable body, etc. it's not a question of doing it...it's a question of do I care to use parlour tricks as a basis of fighting technique. there's also this one of making a knife disappear...look, nothing up my sleeve.

you are delving into solidly debunked demonstrations eyrie. read the latest issue of classical fighting arts magazine.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 07:56 AM

Well, they are parlour tricks, but they also demonstrate core internal skills.

If you can't do these "correctly", then none of the rest makes sense.

I guess the question you are asking is how do these relate to fighting techniques...?

Well, these things are designed to develop specific body skills. And these skills form the basis of all fighting techniques.

As to whether these have been "debunked".... hmmm.... I guess the few people who do possess these skills got it wrong then?

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 08:26 AM

'See' it. Pull out one of those anatomy books...the ones where the body systems are shown in layers on clear plastic (bone/muscle/veins/nerves). Peel off the skin, imagine the nervous system as white/activated when force is being moved through structure.

That is what I mean by 'see'.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 08:45 AM

In the internal MA, you 'see' by using the mind to consciously direct the 'chi', hence the old MA saying, 'the mind arrives, chi arrives' and that's why some people say, in another thread, the chi travels at the speed of thought.

The question is always HOW do you train the mind to CONSCIOUSLY BE AWARE OF AND DIRECT the chi and using it as a "software" tool to acquire the holy grail of internal structural connectivity in a MA context?

You have to start with neigong / chigong training; there is just no other way that I know of.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 08:46 AM

And when you can access the internal structure at will, you can do this stuff breathing in, out, or simply holding your breath.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 08:48 AM

'Where thought goes, energy flows' is an interpretation of that. But it is better with no-thought...where awareness is placed.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 09:00 AM

Yes, when mind and body is ONE -- true, ultimate CONNECTIVITY!

...and dare I say it -- the one thing that brings it all together?

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 09:25 AM

I'll be off-line for a couple of days and will respond in due time to any queries.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 09:56 AM

arm bend trick de-mystified:
http://ofinterest.net/ua/

if we are going to speak in terms of tricks, we might be wasting our time. for example, the arm bend trick only works by first having the person concentrate on the wrong muscles. then by having them concentrate on something else and relax (ie: imagining a longer arm), they subsconsciencely are using the triceps to resist the force.

so having people concentrate on breathing, imagining this and that, flowing chi, bla bla bla ...instead of just saying which muscle group is at work, is deceiving, annoying and couter-productive to the conversation - since: 1. I'm not a wide-eyed noob and WILL know when I'm being tricked. and 2. makes the whole notion of a 'ki energy' look more like bunk.

overveiw of what we are doing to bring this back down to earth:
there is an attack coming in (for the sake of simplicity lets say a single attack)...either move out of the way or intercept/deflect the attack with a part of the physical body. those are the ONLY things in this world any mortal human can do. practice helps with efficiency...so it appears as though the experienced defender is hardly moving, but actually, they are just moving/shifting/pivoting efficiently and by the minimum amount needed to neutralize the incoming threat while simultaneously arriving to a strategic position for a counter to take them out. there are no sheilds of chi they are bouncing off of. they are using well timed muscle groups and skeletal structure. thats it.
Whatever mental constructs are used to describe or make it actionable are fine...but when those constructs are for deception, we lose communication.

here's how to detect BS with these subjects: * it's starts getting very vague and further removed from physics...or... * people start saying 'its impossible to put into words'.

If quantuum mechanics can be put into words in the last chapter of a high school science book, I think neijin/ki/chi should be describable in the physical world. sure concepts can be outlandish - sometimes conceptualizing is a useful tool - but the results of that construct, ALWAYS must have a describable physical world effect or else it simply isn't useful in self-defense...just the fantasy of self-defense.

having said that...anyone care to continue the conversation?

one thing I noticed about Aikido is that for a split second when the attack comes in, the defender yeilds and pivots core/deflects just enough to put the attacker at the peak or over their center of gravity. I think that is what I need work on building efficiency in, since I think I'm expending too much energy and force using arm deflection instead of center of gravity deflection....

didn't mean any disrespect to anyone, especially to you eyrie...I just don't respond well to being toyed with.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 10:16 AM

Instead of getting frustrated over the internet, why don't you get some 'hand's on'? Here's a local you can beat up.

http://www.umass.edu/umhome/events/articles/33824.php

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 12:17 PM

Just an exercise of communicating things like this in words. I already have what I need as far as 'hands on'. I was following the concepts until the notion of non-moving movement was thrown in. Then yes, I got annoyed because things were being described in terms of demonstration tricks. they are tricks since they are rooted in physics which the demonstrator is well aware of, yet describes it to the observer as something else much more mysterious.

can you deflect a hand to the chest without moving? if not, have you seen the UMASS class you point out do it? if not, why recommend it? if you have, why aren't you there?

anyone who can demonstrate the push deflection with me, without moving at all, gets a free prize.

If there is movement, then just describe the movement. why go into detail about stuff one minute, and then all of a sudden forget plain english when it gets down to it? lol sorry, but if that comes across abrasive, imagine how abrasive the reality is when people spend years on learning how to do a technique they saw demonstrated by their instructor...only to learn it was a parlor trick.

Imagine the years of a kid thinking he's 'channeling chi thru his arm' to make it unbendable only to find out others with 5 minutes of training can do this trick. thats kindof not funny.

center of gravity, breathing, relaxation, body dynamics, structure, etc .... the suit concept to bring the synergies together was a good one. maybe we should shake chakuras and leave it at that?

since thats where the paths of the thread seem to diverge. perhaps the 'face-saving' thing to do would be to just leave it as: I'm too critical to get it...I'd be willing to submit to that.

sorry if I came off strong, ...I just think it's an important subject.
thank you everyone for chiming in.
-E

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 12:21 PM

Just reading and thinking. Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic.

Question: In your opinion, are the kung li exercises incorporated in the Goju you/we are studying considered an aspect of this 'neigong'?

(now I will go back to my corner and be quiet)

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 07:57 PM

Ed, haven't I been straight with you so far?

Have I gone beyond the realms of physics and natural laws?

Just because one person spouts BS ("life energy" - yeah sure...) on a "ki trick" and the other person invalidates the person's claim, does that somehow automatically invalidate the test?

Using muscles in opposition is one way to explain the trick, but it is not the intent of the exercise. Firstly, the down force through the elbow is meant to be redirected to the ground using the "suit", such that the pusher feels like they're pushing against the ground, and the "unbendable arm" is used as a bridge.

We're talking about vector forces and specifically distribution of load from load-bearing structures here... nothing mystical.

There's an old saying in the internal arts... stillness in motion. That's the whole point of making movements so small that you appear to be standing still.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 08:20 PM

fair enough, but 'no movement' and 'small movement' are two completely different things. lets talk literally. what moves ever so slightly in order to push a hand down that is pressing against your chest?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 10:28 PM

Crap, I sound like a broken record.... the suit.... the suit... micro adjustments in the body's 'anti-gravity' mechanism.

Unless you can feel the suit and can use at will it to manipulate vector forces, it's really pointless to talk about the rest of it, coz it sure as hell ain't gunna make sense.

The point is, none of this is "ki magic" (yeah, right, "life energy" my a$$). It's plain old bio-mechanics and physics - but NOT what you think.

Perhaps removing the blinkers from time to time might help....

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/22/06 11:07 PM

ok, because you are cool, I'll trust you again.

ooops wait, let me lift the blinders...

there we go...

'anti-gravity' mechanism - new term for the thread. all muscles are anti-gravity, we can lift any voluntary muscle in our body to counter gravity.

see, here's the problem eyrie. you are basically just giving vague conceptual descriptions and then saying, if you can't do it you wont understand. that would be known as a cop-out. what I'm looking for is the actual body movement.

also, one question - does timing play a part in what you are trying to describe? because it's much easier to deflect forward momentum, downwards. than deflecting a constant pressure. the faster they go forward, the easier the deflection. I do this by slightly turning the torso and slightly bending knees just at the proper time. there is no muscular effort nor conscience thought.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 12:41 AM

Ah... you know why they say all this "internal" stuff can't be talked about, it has to be felt? Well... guess what...?

Because it's "internal", everyone's different for starters - there's no hard and fast rule that says it's gotta be like this or like that. It's how it "feels" to YOU - or in harlan's example, how YOU 'see' it.

I know you want to know "how"... I did too... the thing is letting YOUR body TALK to YOU - not me tell you what you should feel.

The "tests" are really bio-feedback mechanisms for your partner to HELP you so YOUR body can tell you what's going on.

Does timing play a part? Only in a fighting encounter where there is a lot of external movement. For this sort of EXERCISES, nope.

Sorry if it sounds "vague"... be sure to check out how much less vague Feldenkrais, Alexander, somatics, Rolf, neuromuscular and other related topics are... there's just too much crap for me to post, and I'd rather be doing my standing exercises than sitting and typing.

What has standing got to do with fighting? EVERYTHING. But do people want to learn how to stand? Hmmmm.... sure, but first, show me how to fight. These are the ones I dump on their a$$ and say, if you can't "stand", how can you fight? Or maybe you should do BJJ instead?? LOL!

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 12:52 AM

BTW, try using the fascial suit to counter gravity instead of external muscle....oh gee, maybe that's what "standing" means...

OK, here's a "standing" exercise...

Stand shoulder width apart, high-ish horse stance. Imagine you're in a hole up to your waist. Place your hands palm down and push up on this imaginary ground - like you're trying to lift yourself out of the hole.

But at the same time, push down on your feet (like your feet are stuck in sticky, heavy mud in the hole). Now try to lift your knees until you feel a tension in your spine. Then back off on the tension until it's barely there and try and hold it.

Now, use your breath to lift your knees and pull up/push down at the same time (thru the spine). Once you get the hang of up and down, try adding the push/pull feeling to front/back (chest level), left/right (shoulder level)- at the same time.

If you can feel "something", you're exercising the suit. If not, keep trying until you do. What you're looking for is a "grab" on the suit. Kinda like when you hang weights from your nether regions.... (oh, can I say that?)

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 01:17 AM

there are different ways to get the job done, eyrie ...don't get high and mighty on me now. lol

a 'feeling' can not intercept, deflect or evade.

I'd like to try this drill with you: you stand there and feel/imagine whatever you want...and I throw you a circular neck strike. ...geez eyrie, are you ok? I thought you were going to DO something.

hehe

ok, I know, you are talking exercises but I feel better making that cheap shot. thats what you get for treating me like a noob who hasn't paid any dues in training time, comes into a forum and wants to know the secret mystery inner workings of your Art. it's not like that, just this one aspect of aikido interests me, so I'm plucking it out and adding it to my understanding. people do that all the time, they just don't admit it.

tell you what, mr cryptic, I'll put money on this - kindof like the other thread where both have nothing to lose.
You stand there, and I push. if you move even a fraction of an inch or tighten any muscle, you lose. if you don't redirect my force vector, you lose.

you are telling me you would make a money bet on that?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 01:31 AM

eyrie, that exercise you mention is EXACTLY the 'yoi' position of Goju kata. It's not always shown, so some goju kata you see performed may or may not have it.
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=186

Posted by: CVV

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 02:11 AM

Ed,
You talk about redirecting force to identify internal power.
In the aikido I have experienced, this priciple is used.
Using the ki of the opponent.
We (goju-ryu karate) train this too in kakie exercise.
But how about offensive moves and internal power ??
There is no redirecting force vectors. It is mostly linear.
Goal is to let power(ki) harvestad in the tanden flow
without obstruction to the point of contact with the intent of maximum power release.
We use sanchin training primarely for that.
This is primeraly how I see internal power training (neigong) and it holds no secrets or mystical things.
Correct breathing, correct posture, correct attitude/intent.
This entire concept is ki, it is not one physical thing or energy in my opinion, it is a conceptual thing as a combibation of body, mind and breathing.
Eventually this perception will be 'aware' in everything you do, like the yoi (opening) of goju ryu. But I do not imagine standing in a hole with mud, just pushing the fists sideway and down.
This is my perception of it and if this is not correct or not 'core' I would like to hear it.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 05:37 AM

I dunno Ed... only a noob would make a comment like that. LOL!

Seriously, any of these "tricks" can be circumvented - if you know how. But it kinda defeats the purpose of the exrecise doesn't it? Heck, even you could push Tohei over standing on one leg, but that's not the point is it? It's to demonstrate an internal ability, and sadly many people like to think it's something else and therefore feel the need to debunk it.

Frankly I don't see the point in engaging in an exercise where the parameters of the exercise are clearly defined and one party decides to be "tricky" and try to thwart the other person. Do you?

I've been doing my exercises, so I'm pretty confident that you'd bounce off me and throw yourself if you did try to push me - without me moving. So yeah, I'll put money on it.

If I say that kokyu-ho is an exercise involving application of the suit would that make sense? So why not do kokyu-ho then, you ask? Well, how do you know if you're using pure shoulder force or force from the ground and your hara/dantien?

BTW, is that really a "ready" stance or is that kiko training? Have a think about it... ibuki, body tensing followed by relaxation, "winding" (the suit) using the foot/leg rotation.

If that's not neigong, I don't know what it is... maybe a getting ready to fight stance?

Nothing I have said so far contradicts anything you already know. I'm just pointing at the "intent" of the exercise and not the exercise itself.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 06:05 AM

I just found this:
http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-pom1.html

Not saying anything substantially different to what I've said so far...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 07:37 AM

CVV: thats exactly what I'm trying to find out.

eyrie: the article you linked looks interesting. I'll read it.

wow, I'd bounce off if I tried to push you.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 07:48 PM

Ya know, I'd love to say it's a Jedi-trick... but it's merely a "basic" body skill.

Someone once related to me that a skilled XingYi practitioner who served as the Empress (Dowager, I presume?) bodyguard, used to clear a path for her palaquin by simply walking thru the crowd and bouncing people off him. Apparently, the people getting "bounced" had no idea what happened....

(If I find the story I'll post it)

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 10:55 PM

my findings on this may not be the direction you were trying to lead me, but perhaps it's overlapping. in any event, I'm glad I was pressing on you to spit it out. lol I think everyone in this thread 'knows' me enough to realize not to take it personal and I appreciate no one did (or at least didn't show it

) anyway....

That article bridged the gap between what you are trying to describe, and what I understand. all of this you are descibing is in order to become 'aware' of muscles and supporting structures that we are not usually aware of.

and I think you are right to some extent, that my previous training did not specifically point out exactly what it was we were doing, but rather instead, put it in terms of 'rooting' and 'sinking' and 'gripping the floor' etc.

While never thinking of it in terms of concepts, but rather in terms of doing something, subconsciencely my body has been learning them that way.
but since the actions were in certain terms (gripping, rooting, etc), then the underlying muscles/structures were only being optimised towards those terms.

because of the subtlety, training these structures is really only thru imagery and repetition. after a while the imagagery goes away and is gradually replace with just a keen 'feel' for it.

I already know imagery works as a training method. what I didn't know is the subtlety it could be used for. so it's basically the same as I understand it, but with a finer grainularity.

It's given me food for things to incorporate in my training......meanwhile, as we wait a year or so to allow my body to learn what my brain has....can we continue the thread in whatever direction the next person steers it? or we can talk about this more if we want...

one more thought...or maybe another way of explaining what is physically going on ...another way to describe the 'suit'. imagine if every fiber of muscle and every strand of tendon, ligament, etc were replaced with either a '1' (on) or '0' (off).

as we stand flatfooted and top-heavy, there is a certain pattern of 1's and 0's which we can think of as our current position's 'fingerprint'. a real actual fingerprint has swirls and broken lines etc that follows a rough pattern, but it's certainly never perfectly symetrical. back to the body's 'fingerprint' - imagine if we could change the structure of the pattern so that we had alignment of the swirls in a particular vector at any given moment. control over each '1' and '0' state would happen automatically as long as we had the proper image of which pattern to use.

to equate concepts to tie this back:
'the suit' = 'the digital fingerprint'

now what was so hard about putting that into words? lol

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/23/06 11:17 PM

also, putting what I said into 3-d just to blow people's minds, is like when you squeeze an egg on the sides with your thumb and index finger it breaks easy...but using the same two fingers positioned top and bottom of the egg, and its' damn near impossible to crack.

the standing egg.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/24/06 02:36 AM

You got it bud! It's the choice of words.... sorry, I did that deliberately to screw with your imprinted paradigm.

Yes, it's really really subtle stuff... hence relaxing and opening your mind to increase sensitivity and awareness.

Definitely a different way... not for everyone.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/24/06 07:19 AM

I'm going to stop there, I have some things to work on. (cup runnith over). feel free for anyone to continue or guide the thread... thanks all, some good stuff here.
-E

Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Neigong - 05/24/06 08:04 AM

Excellent debate!

Now, do we consider neigong to be a method of how we train? or would you consider it to be specific sets of exercises?

I could see it being either. Neigong basically means internal work. If I plug in the theory bejhind neigong into all of my forms is it neigong?

I do specific sets of exercises that are described as neigong. For example; xingyi neigong, jiben shou fa, and tien gan. These are all specific neigong exercises.

My forms are not called neigong. We have our post heaven sets (hou tian) and pre heaven sets - circle walking etc. Being an IMA practice, (neijia) they have the same core principles as the neigong. What sets these apart from specific neigong exercises?

Once again - good thread.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/24/06 07:36 PM

An excellent point Chris. I see it primarily as a method of how we train.

To the casual observer, exercises can mean nothing - after all, you see someone "standing" and it doesn't look like they're doing much - apart from standing in a silly stance.

Additionally, unless you know the specifics of the exercise and what you are meant to be exercising and how it is being exercised, the exercise itself is meaningless.

Hence the reason a lot of so-called qigong (and yoga) books are aimed at the health and "new age" market - because a lot of the "internals" (i.e. methods) are deliberately omitted.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 06:09 AM

This is an awesome vid of Tetsuzan Kuroda, especially the last 10-20 sec of the clip. If you look closely, there's a lot of stuff he's showing of what's possible with that level of skill in redirecting forces internally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys&search=kuroda%20martial

AJ link to Kuroda interview. Mentions some stuff already discussed here.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=85

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 09:29 AM

eyrie, that interview link has to be about the best I've read in a while! deserving of it's own thread of discussion.
thanks for sharing it

Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 11:26 AM

Here is a link to a specific Neigong practice called Tiandi Neigong.

http://www.yizongbagua.com/Comm_article_tiandineigong_Buddy.htm

Check out the link at the bottom of the article for a vid of the exercise. (May take a little bit to load).

Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 11:45 AM

A couple of things that I noticed in the video. (Very cool BTW).

With the finger wrestling, the redirection of force is done by making micro adjustments within the structure. Moving things so that they line up in a way that the force is directed in a line so the entire body becomes engaged. When the host tries it his finger is not properly aligned and thus he cannot perform the feat. When the master pushes it he is correcting the alignment in the finger.

I liked the demonstration of the master whipping the host's arm. This shows how you can use the knowledge of your structure and its use against someone else. He envokes a wave in the hosts arm that travels into his body and gains control of his spine. Sweet!

I was watching how he transitioned his weight when moving and noticed similarities between his movements and the 1/2 step or ban bu seen in Bagua and Xingyi. But then again, doesnt Aikido have some roots within Bagua?

I am working on the article, very interesting thus far. I'm going to finish reading it before I post on it.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 02:16 PM

the arm whipping trick can only be demonstrated when the 'uke' is completely relaxed. he first tells the uke where will be jolted forward.

if you can already make a towel snap, this trick would take about 5 minutes to master....then you just need an uke who admires you.

if the uke DIDN'T know which part was intended to jolt, then it would be more impressive.

there was no demonstration of ki there, just snapping a towel and the timing of the wrist snap. I have no doubt his skill is beyond anything I'd ever hope to accomplish, but even Masters such as this are not above circus tricks.

The article did more justice to the subject....since, it can't be 'seen' anyway.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 07:05 PM

By changing the alignment and adding a vector in a different direction (to the empty spot), he takes away the other person's vector.

The arm "whip" to control the spine... definitely. Basically it's transference of force thru the internal structure. BTW, Ed, nobody said anything about "ki".

I'm not certain that Aikido has roots in Bagua. There are some unsubstantiated stories floating around that Ueshiba may have picked up some CMA on his sojurns to Mongolia and China. It is equally likely that Ueshiba made the connections himself, or that this knowledge was already inherent in the koryu systems.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 07:45 PM

let's skip ahead further than what my noob aiki a$$ is ready for...

what is the principle/feeling/mindset that allows for being able to roll within a short distance?...other than just 'try to put your head in your nethers'.

and how/does that relate to soft power? (I'm making you guys work, hehe)

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 08:06 PM

I'm not sure I understand the point of your question.

Ukemi on a very basic level is a method of escaping from a joint lock throw. If you have your joints locked and don't roll properly, it gets dislocated or the muscle/tendon gets torn. Note that many koryu jujitsu had joint lock throws from which one couldn't escape from...

(hmmm.... nasty!)

A good example is shiho-nage (4 corner throw) - a fairly common throw in many martial arts. For obvious safety reasons, many don't encounter the locking throw until uke develops the ability to safely roll out of such a throw.

OTOH, ukemi at a higher level requires the ability to redirect internal forces such that one becomes unlockable and unthrowable - in the sense that any attempt to be moved, locked or thrown can be countered.

I'm in the middle of writing an article about various aspects of ukemi, and I'll post it in due course for comments, critique and feedback - if people are interested.

Hopefully this answers your question for now.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 10:22 PM

I was referencing the interview/article...the part of being able to roll within a short distance.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/25/06 10:37 PM

I think I'm having a noob day... I can't seem to find the reference. Can you quote the entire paragraph here?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/26/06 12:31 AM

Ah... it's what's called keeping your ukemi "tight". Basically, it's falling on the same spot as many times as you can. Sticking your head up your a$$ is one way of putting it...

Yep, you have to soften and lighten your ukemi and make it "small", i.e. a tight circle. It's really good training for building "center" strength.

Posted by: WuXing

Re: Neigong - 05/26/06 07:50 AM

We did that sort of training for the monkey style form...didn't really spend enough time on it. Rolling in place isn't easy to accomplish, especially on a concrete floor. Rolling up and down the school, jumping rolls and in place rolls. I know it's a different focus than Aikido ukemi. and it's got nothing to do with neigong, so...I disappear

*poof*

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/26/06 10:27 AM

not necessarily off topic...and I guess that is what I was asking.

I'm just suppossing a link, this isn't from experience.

first, a recap:
In this thread, we talked about a sort of 'active standing' as a prerequisite to understanding nei jin. and remember, 'nei jin' is just a term to describe a core principle of movement (as it related to MA) characterized by 'softness' and elasticity. unconscience timed breathing plays a central part of 'energy' restoration and transmission while maintaining relaxation with the ideal being conservation of that energy.
Also covered was the slippery and elusive distinction of changing natural ability as opposed to increasing natural ability. Increasing ability would be training to strengthen, quicken, reaction/reflex, etc ...the normal 'hard' MA training we all do. Whereas changing ability is using imagery of the mind to subconsciencely direct internal patterns - the internal patterns are basically the micro adjustments of internal tissue to maximize efficiency. This 'changing' happens even while standing and seemingly motionless.

Here's the tricky part 'internal' training after many years has the net effect of external training (thru refined energy conservation). and external training after many years, has the effect of internal training (thru refined efficiency).

from the inside-out or from the outside-in.

Go and Ju and not separate principles.

------------

my question is: Training to roll within a short distance...wouldn't that be one next logical place to start training after 'standing' ?

Posted by: CVV

Re: Neigong - 05/26/06 04:20 PM

I agree to the assesment of years of training and the difference of internal and external approach eventually lead to unification in the traind person.
However I do not see the identification hard-external / soft-internal. Hard and soft encompas in my opinion something else than internal and external power search/release. In my opinion hard and soft refer to technique (hard linear technique/soft circular technique) and are executed by internal and external power. In terms of karate for instance, an straight jab (age uchi) can deflect an incoming punch and attack opponents head and requires internal(optimum momentum and alignment) and external power(hardened forearm) yet it is a linear hard technique. A furi uchi (roundhouse backfist ???) is a circular soft technique and also requires internal(enchainment of alligned joints) and external power(strong wrist/shoulder) to be executed with power.
As such I do not automatically connect soft with internal and hard with external.
Internal/external relates to power.
Hard/soft relates to technique.
Spitting/swallowing relates to breathing.
Sinking/lifting relates to stance/grounding.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/28/06 08:55 PM

And of course, the outcome of all of this is that you want to do this all the time, in *everything* you do.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 05/30/06 04:03 PM

I've thought of stepping as just going where your CG or hara leads you.

Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Neigong - 05/30/06 04:12 PM

I can see stepping that way and I can see the feet leading your CG. Where the feet point is where the body will naturally want to travel.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 05/30/06 11:54 PM

And then there is "stepping" using the weight and ground force to transfer to and from your hara/lower dantien....

Fune-kogi undo and sayu-undo is a good exercise - if you're looking into that sort of thing from an aikido perspective.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 06/11/06 10:42 PM

eyrie and all: I haven't lost interest in this topic...I'm just exploring some ideas shared here and will get back when I've semi 'caught-up' to getting a feel for what is being talked about. I appreciated everyone's input and re-read thru this now and then to absorb it. Thanks again.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 06/12/06 04:51 AM

I hope it's not one of those "see you in 10 years" thing!

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/02/06 10:14 PM

whats funny is realizing something was right there all along....only the point of view had to change. After looking, thinking, talking and reading in addition to training and experimenting - I think I've inadvertantly found out another seemingly unrelated question that was always in the back of my mind - why do Sanchin slow?

I really love the "ah-ha's" when they come with physical learning.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/02/06 11:19 PM

What's funny is ME saying exactly that all along....

So, enlighten us on your epiphany....

Why do sanchin slow? Why do sanchin at all? What purpose does sanchin serve?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 12:00 AM

but you telling me is quite different from feeling a peice of this topic. I'm not saying I'm 'there'...no where near it. my 'drumbeat' is barely a murmur.

one thing that still puzzles me though...when I was taught Sanchin, it was slow with 'hard' out - and slow with 'soft' in. but when you do it fast, the polarity reverses. soft and loose out...then 'hard' for a split second on the way back. odd and counter-intuitive isn't it.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 12:22 AM

Likewise... maybe we're just a bit dense...

I guess the pertinent questions are, what is your body going thru/feeling when you do it slow, as opposed to when you're doing it fast. What specifically is it that you are "working", and what effect does speed of performance have on that. When you talk about "polarity", what specifically are you referring to? Polarity of what? These are more questions are what we should be asking.

I'm afraid this is where the limit of my knowledge ends, for the moment. Perhaps someone else with more experience can clarify.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 01:06 AM

what I'm describing is the feeling of letting your arm/body loose on the way out (of lets say a strike), and then in order to reverse the direction quickly...a 'polarity change' (my termonology since I don't know the lingo) has to happen. that jolt is with the entire body as a very fast ripple, barely detectable...but somehow you know it's there when you see someone do it.

the 'jolt' isn't caused by the strike so much as it's caused by the sudden and rapid change from soft to hard. thats what I'm calling 'polarity change'.

the effect of the jolt on a bag is pretty close to the same kind of jolt we've talked about before and similar impulse impact that the kimura-shukokai guys get with full reverse punches - the effects are similar, but the mechanic is quite different. the bag folding and jumping as oppossed to pushing is similar in effect. you have to get hit by it to really appreciate the quick shock it produces. ...and nothing magic about it. just takes a long time to get.

the advantage in terms of this topic of course is that the power takes less distance than a reverse punch to achieve, plus it's not dependant on the configuration of the strike, AND without comprimizing setup time....which is better suited for closer-in range. but you don't get something for nothing, and unless you train this full time, it really does seem like it would take a while to get.

the points you and others make about structure, breathing, and internal power, etc is exactly what Sanchin has, thats the neigong aspect of Sanchin. the form itself is very internally structured with external consequence. and btw, I'm even more convinced now, that the focus of Sanchin study isn't so much about 2-person application analysis...but more the development of this fundamental. which is also why we still see Sanchin today in various configurations in other Chinese internal Arts. I notice though that curiously, the Chinese Arts having Sam Chen as part of their study, also have a significant amount of external aspects to their style.

The reason to do Sanchin slow is a learning device. a counter-intuitive one, for sure....but the lessons are there.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 01:37 AM

OK, I think you're talking about "store and release" (which is opposite to what you're describing - your idea of soft to hard is release first then reload). In order to release, you have to store first. How are you storing for that initial release?

If we look at the links that Karate has to Fujian White Crane and Southern CMA in general, and the influences from Southern Shaolin, I think we can see the common thread, via external Shaolin Buddhist qigong practices.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 07:40 AM

I was trying to describe the mechanism behind "store and release". like I said, counter-intuitive.

releasing 'soft' and storing 'hard'. but externally, it's opposite as you say.

just like the breathing. inhale to store (soft), exhale to release (hard).

it's the change between the two modes that creates the jolt. (the 'ripple' to enable it is 180 degrees out of phase).

bah...my terms aren't working. I'll think of a different way to describe what I think is going on.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 07:46 AM

I disagree. "chi awareness" is an artificial construct...just a framework of a way of thinking about it. if people start there with that way of thinking (especially a western mind), it often goes misinterpreted. starting with a mis-interpretation might get you somewhere else. I don't believe thinking in terms of chi circulation is the only way.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 08:24 AM

Then don't. It works fine for me. Different paradigms for different people. Although, I do think that until one can 'resolve' this internal conflict of paradigms, certain insights will remain elusive.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 09:01 AM

or no paradigms at all.

but I'm not working on paradigms. My goal is to hit as hard at short distances with any strike as I do using other methods with a loaded reverse punch.
Potential energy (as in physics) has to come from somewhere...it's not magic. using hip, torsion, structure, timing, speed etc can get good potential energy stored and released but at closer distances it starts to break down.

but everyone is right....I need more time just working on it.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 12:25 PM

If it bothers you, don't think of it as "qi" or "ki" - but bear in mind, this stuff comes from Indian yogi practices, found its way to Tibet, China, Japan and Korea - mostly intact, with a few minor variations. But the theme throughout is consistent.

The imagery often used is one of moving like a snake - where do you think "kundalini" comes from??? It's being aware of your energy circulation at an extremely subtle level and being able to command it at will. Yes, that requires training - everyday of every moment until it is part of your original nature. Not second nature. Original nature.

Sure, you can use mechanical and physical constructs like hip torsion and such like to start to acquire it, but beyond that level, it's gaining control over unconscious automated responses.

But like BP said, no point going into all that detail if you haven't reached the first rung yet....

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 02:53 PM

'the first rung' lol you mean the rung of believing it before being able to do it?

I bet I can hit harder than most people believing in Chi as a magical power, so which rung would that be?

what I think is even if someone had no book knowledge of Chi as a concept, they could still physically learn internal power. because it ultimately comes down to physics...whether we think of it as chi, mojo or water - reality doesn't distinguish based on what is going on in our heads and hearts. can you use it in real-time, and does it drop the guy - are the questions. everything else is construct.

maybe what we should each do is post brief clips of a demonstration of hitting something...or some kind of demo illustrating the principles.

it's possible to know the concepts well without ever being able to physically do them...so lets see them.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 08:20 PM

To be honest, I don't use the word "qi" or "ki" at all when teaching. I rarely, if ever, use the word "energy" either. None of my teachers nor instructors did either. I think I've said this before.

True, most of this stuff can be explained in physics, mechanical or bio terms, BUT... it has to be shown and FELT in order to fully appreciate it.

I have no doubt that you can hit "hard". But "seeing" isn't quite the same as feeling it....

I've been hit by a 5th dan Goju practitioner, who apparently likes to think that "Go-ju" means that his hard is REALLY F**KIN hard, and his "soft" is harder than someone else's hardest. Sure it stung, but it wasn't as hard as what I hit him with.

After a while of trading blows in a Goju version of "push-hand" exercise, he couldn't work out why his "hard" punches had little effect on me, or why I was so relaxed, and he walked away saying "Don't hit so hard". Well, he started it first! I was only a noob in Goju at the time, and I thought that since he was hitting me, it must've been part of the "exercise". LOL!

Here's a little experiment to see if you understand the "first rung"...

If you have a suspended heavy bag... walk up to it, place your hands on it and walk out forward until the bag is hanging at 45 degrees. Hold it there for 10mins without letting your deltoids burn.... if you can do that then try throwing the bag out forward WITHOUT MOVING your shoulders or arms.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 09:17 PM

no problem. whats next?

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 09:26 PM

Is this test using the honor system?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 09:31 PM

You know, you can't cheat with this stuff. You either got it and know it, or you don't.

You can't intellectualize this stuff. You either feel it or you don't. That only comes by changing the way you hold your posture and move.

AND I KNOW you haven't done the exercise yet. If you did, you would have a better question than "What's next".

All the clues are here - re-read the thread. Use your biggest "muscle" and WORK it out. What's next? Use only your breath to throw the bag out.

I can think of lots of different exercises to "test" your strength. But unless you DO it, you're not going to "get it".

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 09:37 PM

lol - it was a joke eyrie...of course I can't do it. can you?

just to clarify: only BELEIVING in it also is not enough, right?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 09:56 PM

See, Harlan "knows"...

I have a big Maori guy training with me right now (but not for much longer). He's 140kg and built like a brick sh!thouse. BUT....

He can't move me, throw me, lock me or push me if he's using physical strength. He can however begin to do all of the above (only just - because I let him) if he stops using physical strength and accesses this "something else" (which we will NOT call "ki").

I, OTOH, can bounce him, spit him out, push him over, throw him and drop him, pretty much at will. And you know what, he keeps coming back for more, because this "strength" is so weird and unlike any idea of physical strength that he has encountered before. So much so that he's gotten rid of his weight lifting equipment... now does that tell you something?

PS: I was in the middle of my reply above, so I'll answer your question now. Yep, I can. I can hold it all day if I wanted to. The problem is I ain't got all day. So I'll hold about 5-10mins depending on what other exercises I feel like doing at the time. Personally I prefer chopping wood and carrying water. Like I said, this stuff makes you a better "labourer".

Maybe start with 30-60 seconds? And see where you're bearing the load. Let your body talk to you.

You know, all the hojo-undo stuff in Goju comes from the same ideas - if you know WHAT you are meant to be training. You probably already have enough of the key concepts for you to go away and work it out.

And yes, you don't need to believe, but if it helps then do. And an open mind is easier to fill than a closed one.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 10:13 PM

Yes...but knowing/understanding isn't enough. A mind body connection has to be made...and then worked on. It sucks understanding...but not be able to do.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 10:15 PM

well...it might dawn on me and click one day what you are talking about. and then theres the possibility it won't ever.

but I did resurrect this thread for a reason. I've been taking a look at how gong li exercises relate to Sanchin. I couldn't relate it until I did two things: do Sanchin fast, and do gong li slow.

since you have a better way with words about this stuff, I'll let you guess what dawned on me after doing that...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 10:17 PM

harlan, it would equally suck knowing you've been physically working on things directly related but can't conceptualize them.

I suspect most people who throw out it's terms casually in posts in the past don't enter into these conversations because these are concepts and abilities that really are humbling. I feel like a moron not knowing this stuff...but I get a nugget every once in a while, and it futher peaks my interest....meanwhile, I just train and hopefully let my body do the learning. I joke about it or sometimes get testy, but it isn't easy (for me), and it's even harder to talk about.

the whole subject makes me feel like a white belt...and I like that feeling.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 10:40 PM

Well, I wouldn't know what dawned on you.... I can't read minds... yet. You know, part of the reason of having a forum is to discuss things. It's not a one-way street.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/03/06 11:30 PM

ok, I'll try. first, I didn't give the whole scenario. for that I have to go off topic a bit.

I suspect that alot of what a body learns at a very deep level (particularly as to this subject) happens when we are fatigued. we have to get those big muscles worked out in order to get to the micro ones...the ones that keep us going when it's hard to lift an arm. but it's important which exercises we do. something I never really cared about in the past. we worked out and worked out hard. we'd go thru kata in all different ways, holding stances forever, weights in our hands, slow with tension, etc. and maybe to an unconscious extent, my body was learning some of these topic principles...

Even now, I don't know for sure which training is best in terms of this thread topic, so I base what I do at home on faith...namely Gong li and Sanchin. for that kind of workout (which, I admittedly don't do enough...once a week at most on my own, not including regular class and not including just light workouts on the side now and then), it really is difficult to push myself to a limit that is actually a benefit to the physical learning I'm trying to get at. (not to mention how easy it is to make excuses that it sucks working out in the basement for any length of time with low ceiling, stone walls with spiders and millapedes crawling around).

but anyway, despite my lack of intensity-depth needed to really get this, I do have hints of it come now and then. it's fleeting, and if I don't force myself to be aware of it, I miss it and it vaporizes into no words, but remains as just an impression.

just understand that and realize if I even try to put it into words something I can't verbalize well...it will just come out sounding trivial.

which may be among the other reasons more people don't even try to talk about it.

I'll read your posts, but it seems I probably brought this up prematurely and need to just work on it more. thanks for the insights and thoughts eyrie, harlan and bpalm.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 12:37 AM

There's an old saying that training to the point beyond exhaustion is where the point of this training becomes apparent - effortless power.

Once you understand the principles, does it matter what or how the exercises are done? Or what variations?

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 09:40 AM

I do recall dragging my butt to class after being up for 48 hours straight. I dogged it through bo practice...I was so exhausted I didn't care. A funny remark floated past me:

'You're doing really well today.'

That whole concept of relaxing dawned on me then.

PS. Nothing like seeing Sanchin done, full out, using Gong Li. It's all there. Then, there is Tensho...

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 10:54 AM

There's "relaxed" and then there's "relaxed".

What does "relax" mean?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 01:46 PM

in the new issue of CFA, there is an article on boxer Jack Dempsey. His concepts run parallel to this discussion but without the foreign terms and clouded language.

Chinese word: 'song'

misnomer literal translation: 'relaxed'.

more accurate English equvalent of 'song': "a balanced state which is neither slack nor tense."

Jack Dempsey on power generation: "teeter in position until you feel balanced and comfortable. Be relaxed everywhere as you teeter. Now, when you feel comfortable and relaxed..."

He didn't need to explain it in terms of chi flow. just simple direct language creating a real-world and atainable mental image.

since we don't have mental images of foreign words, without careful scrutany, our imagination and spiritual beleifs starts filling in the blanks of what we imagine things to be. It doesn't need to be that way by adding layers of abstraction.

eyrie,bpalm, harlan - I'm not criticizing you...your language is pretty direct without too much hocus pocus or fancy terms, and I appreciate it. I'm just reminding all of us of occam's razor.

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 03:55 PM

I never saw a Dempsey fight, and have to defer to the real MA'ists here...but I think this is where I switch out. If the terminology from any culture only refers to dynamics...then it is lacking.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 05:51 PM

does what is going on internally matter if it has the same external effect?

Posted by: harlan

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 06:30 PM

Of course it does; one can use a hammer to build a house, or destroy a house.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 06:36 PM

a person defends themselves against an attack, by shifting out of the way just in time - then striking. the attacker falls.

another defender does the same thing to protect himself and eliminates the threat.

which one was taught power generation in terms of 'Chi'?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 10:39 PM

I look at it this way... all of the verbal constructs, terms, dichotomies(or is that dichotomi?), and cerebral thinking is all only to paint an impression of subjective physical feel.

so having the feel of it, recognizing it when it 'clicks', and being able to reproduce it at will HAS to come first before we can even attempt to put it in words or claim to 'know'.

In the case of this thread, in order to 'know', we have to first 'do'. and the 'doing' has to have external application or it's not even a principle for defensive combat.

In this case, efficient movement for evading and striking.

when we are talking about efficient movement, I couldn't care less what beliefs are going on in a persons head...because thats the part I will find out on my own as a result of being able to do.

In other words, the belief that something works with application is the prerequisite to learning how to do it....not the belief in why it works -that comes later and is subject to interpretation.

so when we talk about 'internal arts', I'm assuming actual and physical application.

it's my fault for naming the thread 'neigong'...I should have named it "need help in developing explosive relaxed short-distance power".

Which I thought is the same as 'internal skill' (literal translation 'Neigong'). To get this, it takes subtle and timed body mechanics of breathing, alignment, timing and most importantly 'feel' for it....and the way to build that is thru drills that are optimised for such things and persistently work doing them. what I haven't seen is the 'end product' of anyone giving advice on this. where's the beef?

let's see a video of something that represents what all the advice is for. and I don't mean that as disrespectful, I'm suggesting it as a meanful way of communication on this subject.

One person might describe the 'feel' while doing as invisible channels of energy circulating...or another might say an inflatable suit...or another might like to describe it in terms of chakras. It's interpretive, I get that. I know one thing, the person being hit by it for real wouldn't care how you describe it...you either get it to work or you don't and I'd like to see the end result before taking any more advice.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 10:57 PM

Of course it's your fault.... it's ALWAYS your fault.

Since when did anyone here say anything about "belief" or believing in any of this??? I've noticed that you seem to have a nasty habit of imposing or projecting your dis-beliefs on others.

Sure, knowing and doing are two different things. But don't you think that knowing what it is that you're doing (or attempting to do) is important? There seems to be a disconnect in the mind-body connection somewhere....

PS: re: "subjective" interpretation... I think the bodyworkers explain this stuff in much better terms... remember that the ancient Chinese were working from a different understanding of what we now call "modern science". But you seem to have a real issue with accepting the fact that knowledge advances as technology advances and that both are interrelated cause and effect.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/04/06 11:00 PM

so....when can I expect the video then?

and out of curiosity...in your opinion, what exactly IS the end product of understanding this? my goal is efficiency of movement (least exertion, maximum power).

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 01:28 AM

Man, you have a real knack of taking things out of context and twisting it, dontcha....???

Harlan's quote was taken waaaay out of context. BP never mentioned anything about Bodhidarma teaching "martial arts". But somehow you managed to equate "sanchin set" with martial arts....????

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Qi was used by the ancient Chinese to describe various phenomena which were unexplainable to them at the time. Given our advances in knowledge and tehnology, our modern scientists have attempted to explain some of these phenomena - some more successfully than others.

Recently I came across a research article which found that neurotransmitters travel along the same paths as the meridians. But to me, until further reasearch is done, I would consider that "iffy". The more pertinent question, is even though the ancients didn't understand this or know how to explain it, the fact that they even identified the meridians, is it itself inexplicably interesting. And of course, I would question it, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Which is what you seem to be doing.

You seem to be confusing the issues here (or building a f**kin huge straw man). Do you want proof that this stuff works? Or do you want proof of "qi"? If proving that this stuff works, does that then prove the existence of "qi"? If this stuff doesn't work, then does that disprove the existence of "qi"? And therefore Martial Arts are bunk?

I don't know what you're getting at... but, there, I've just torched your straw man....

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 02:01 AM

no, not trying to prove or disprove anything other than my point that constructs need not apply in order to 'get' these principles.

so I notice you didn't address this in your counter:
"In a sentence, it will never happen if you do not start with building up an AWARENESS of your 'chi' circulation to a degree where you can consciously circulate the chi deep into the tensed up muscles while moving around doing the sanchin kata and change the way they feel and behave."

I don't know eyrie, I think the fire went out on your torch to my 'strawman'.

If thats not telling me 'believe in Chi or you can forget it' ...then I dont know what does.

and I'm fine with how people view and feel about things, harlan made it clear that she didn't want participation in the thread if it changed the way I was nudging it. I came to the realization that I'm trying to pursue something tangible, just as harlan is...I'm just deciding to look at it from a different angle - namely the physical application angle.
and if it does indeed have physical application, then it's perfectly legitimate to choose to look at it that way.

you are kindof right that I'm sometimes dismissive of beliefs just because they are beliefs...thats my flaw in some of my arguments. and you're right, who knows maybe someday science will discover pathways they didn't 'see' before. absolutely possible.

so I appologize if I offended anyone. but I would like to keep the conversation in terms of measurable benefit. and in order to do that, no I don't need to prove/disprove chi ...I just need visual aid to see someone do on video what you are suggesting is a 'first rung' to understanding this topic. I know if I could do it, I'd snap a 10 second shot for you to see what I'm talking about. The 10 seconds would tell me more than 10 pages of this thread.

until then, I really can't visualize it as anything other than theory. who knows...it might be the same as what I'm already training and therfore don't need to ask about it at all.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 02:46 AM

If you're going to quote something I said, then make sure I said it in the first place. The quote you highlighted is BP's...

Like I said, if the word "qi" circulation bothers you, don't use it. I think other substitute imagery is just as useful. BP used the word, because it is something he is comfortable with from his cultural context. I am Chinese, so I can appreciate the context as well. Doesn't mean I believe or disbelieve in it. That's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT logical argument. So, although he's using the term "qi circulation", I understand perfectly what he means, even though I wouldn't use it.

Let me ask you this instead.... just watching all the different people on YouTube doing sanchin - ones from the Fujian Crane traditions vs the various karate traditions, can YOU tell the difference? Can you see what's going on INSIDE?

Same with standing (zhan zhuang) exercises... can you SEE what's happening? Beyond merely "standing"?

How is a video going to help???

All BP and I are saying is that you are already practising this stuff - whether you realize it or understand it (or NOT). Just because someone uses a different term to describe what is being practiced doesn't invalidate the practice. Does it?

And all I have been saying is look at the core principles. Use whatever definitions or terms that work for you. The core principles are few, but they are exactly the same thing - different variations.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 03:47 AM

Ask Dan to show you the bag thing...

Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 12:24 PM

Quote:

no, not trying to prove or disprove anything other than my point that constructs need not apply in order to 'get' these principles.

so I notice you didn't address this in your counter:
"In a sentence, it will never happen if you do not start with building up an AWARENESS of your 'chi' circulation to a degree where you can consciously circulate the chi deep into the tensed up muscles while moving around doing the sanchin kata and change the way they feel and behave."

I don't know eyrie, I think the fire went out on your torch to my 'strawman'. If thats not telling me 'believe in Chi or you can forget it' ...then I dont know what does.

You don't have to believe in it, you just have to give it a chance. After you spend enough time working with it, you will start to develope your own scientific theories about the phenomenon by testing and trial and error. Honestly, to a certain degree, both of you guys sound like you are way beyond me, but even I can come up with rational logical explanation (to a certain degree) about 'qi' and some vessles and meridians. No, I can't move a punching bag the way earie was talking about, but I have gotten stronger with weights while at the same time loosing muscle mass. All due to better biomechanics and more effficient energy system... And when I say energy system, I mean that I am not so dependant on the crebs cycle within the muscles anymore, and find other sources of power to aid my movement. All scientifically valid and grounded in reality, and yet, I haven't proven anything to anyone.

I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but here is a few theories on qi phenomenon I have been working with (and keep in mind, they are only theories, they are not claims)-

1. The path of least resistance and pressure. These are the main principles to the energy system. It is just like the two principles for generating an electical current, the path of least resistance (like the wire inside the rubber coating) and a source of pressure (voltage is electical pressure). The proper biomechanical structure opens the path of least resistance in the body, and pressure is channeled through it. Sources of pressure include ground reaction force, internal pressure (PSI) of inflated lungs, an attack from an opponent, a full bladder, tension from a muscle flexion is also directed like pressure (if you tense a muslce)..etc... There also are smaller scale sources of pressure, but I can't begin to describe how they would connect to the larger more scientifically accesible ideas for what could assist movement. The proper structure is what makes this possible, and also, the proper structure is the result of the above.

2.Anything that is within a magnetic field will have it's own magnetic feild. Earth has a magnetic field, so then you do too. A human magnet is weak and not even noticable. However, when the path of least resistance is open, and several EMP (electro magnetic pulse) sources are made available, the electro magnetic field becomes stronger and perhaps increases the ground reaction force pressure as well. Sources of EMP may include caloric energy, increased CNS activity (especially in concentrated points like the celiac ganglion, which may actually be the "jade ring" as spoken of in the tendon/muscle changes, I don't know). Remeber, anything that exists within a magnetic field has its own magnetic field, which means that every bone and every cell in your body has a magnetic field, and there may be other sources of EMP at all depths. I have no idea how the magnetic field would be a usable form of energy other than by converting it into pressure by connecting to the earth's magnet and combining into ground reaction force pressure... or something.

3.The system of channels and vessels provide a very important visualization tool. If you can move your body without closing off the vessels and meridians that you visualize, then you have moved your structure properly (I think). These vessels and channels + the way they connect to your organs...etc.. are like a map for your mind to follow in order to achieve proper movement. This, IMO, is essential in being able to let go of the western mindset of just muslces. If you see and feel the entire 'qi system' and move accordingly to it, then your mind is no longer on the muscles. Since your mind is no longer on the muscles, there is no tension in the muslces. This, I believe is what a large part of the mystery of 'moving with your qi' is about. Even if it was nothing more than an illusion, the illusion still may be neccesary to the process. If you have an idea of the kind of trouble an mental blockage can cause, then you will have an idea of how much good an efficiant mental visuallization can cause. Eventually, in your mind, your body becomes an efficient 'qi system' and not a grouping of muscles. I'm not saying the same movement can't be achieved by learning the proper muslces and structure, I'm just saying you won't learn it that way from an ancient martial arts system, because that's not how they achieved it.

But, alas, I still don't get it all. I've just spent plenty of time trying to rationalize it for my own western mind, and so I can hopefully help others get past their faith stumbling block. Like I said, you don't need to believe it, you just need to give it a chance... Unless you can find a guy like earie who can teach the whole thing just by explaining it in western toung and mind. The main thing I'm TRYING to show, is that the proper structure (what you have been understanding) is most certainly the easiest part for a westerner to understand, but that doesn't make the rest of it hocus pocus. It truly is a science without scientific terminology. You have to decode it for yourself by giving it a chance in your own practices, not by taking someone's word for it. If you do this, it won't be about believing in qi, it will be about realizing that qi explanations were nothing more than advanced scientific phenomenon utilization, with extrememly p1ss poor scientific explanation. Not every teacher needs to understand it scientifically to get results, so not every teacher will feel the need to explain it scientifically. And, some are probably frauds, but if they teach the structure and movement along with the 'qi stuff', then they are probably not frauds.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 01:57 PM

appreciate your thoughts. I think however someone best gets a feel for improved/efficient dynamics, and if they can impress that vision in application, then it is valid for them. and no, they aren't necessarily frauds, but it's naive to think there aren't any either.

your points 1, 2 & 3 you are finding work for you, and thats all that matters. I might be wired differently - I can't give something 'a chance' that I really don't believe in by ignoring what I feel is being true to myself. and I assume everyone does the same...where we differ is our 'truths'.

for example:

your points: the terms you use are physics terms...pressure, current, force, energy ...etc. they have real meaning to me since I've studied them and how they are used in strict western physics definitions and use. when they are used in way you refer them to, they sound like impressions you have of whats going on - and if it helps you then it's valid. It's not for me to judge that (although as eyrie correctly pointed out my flaw in my often doing so

).

since I take terms like that literally from the way I think and the way I've been educated (engineering-no surprize there), then I have to accept it as the persons impression rather than 'fact'. and thats ok too. I get that. I try to visualize their impression they are trying to describe and then translate it into my own accepted visual.

[add] just re-read and it sounds as if I'm giving the impression I know all of the biochemical and physical goings on in the body ...I don't nor claim to. I'm just saying my impression is different (not more or less valid) when using those terms.[/add]

for instance, I know what you are saying about your 'magnitism' point. but have you read the studies on it? I have. and there is currently no basis (in science) for believing anything you've written in terms of magnatism as it relates to the human body - I see it as psudoscience - but I allow to read what people such as yourself write and try to realize it's your impression of whats going on. thats cool, but I can't accept it to be applied to myself while being honest.

have you heard of Kirlian photography ? it suppossedly is a photographic measure of chi/auras/EMF etc. but after detailed studies it is proven to actually be a very sensitive recording of moisture. knowing this, can I honestly still look at a kilarian photograph the same way? no, because my awareness of it has changed.

Bottom line is, this subject is a measurable cause and effect after training it for a certain length of time. efficient short-power can be demonstrated....as can it's claims. for those who are beyond the first rung of understanding it should be a peice of cake to demonstrate the effect at will. until then, like I said, I respect people's impressions, but they remain theoretical at best.

I think I'm going the correct route and following my instructor's lead....and I know he hits hard at short distances without using language to build constructs of it - the constructs are personal, feel how you will about it...meanwhile, "just go like this".

Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 06:54 PM

Quote:

your points 1, 2 & 3 you are finding work for you, and thats all that matters. I might be wired differently - I can't give something 'a chance' that I really don't believe in by ignoring what I feel is being true to myself. and I assume everyone does the same...where we differ is our 'truths'.

My points have nothing to do with how well developed or underdeveloped my current theory on 'qi' is, my point is the concept of 'saying qi' is still useful, even if you have no idea of what it is. It's not a useful practice to get hung up on beliefs every time someone mentions the word 'qi'. You said you are wired differently, but rewiring yourself is a huge part of internal work. I’m not saying you need to accept one of my theories as truths, I’m saying you need to learn not to stumble over your belief/disbelief dilemma with the word qi. How can you disbelieve it when you don’t know what it is that you are disbelieving in? That is why I am not asking you to believe it, I am asking that you give it a chance. If you do, then you can actually gain something more than frustration from BP’s post. It's not his responsibility to cater to your hang-up, it's your problem.

How should I put this? Do you understand what a zen koan is? If you view the 'qi' dilemma as a zen koan, then you learn many things in the process of trying to figure 'qi' out. This is an excellent trick to ’rewiring yourself’, enabling for you to benefit from posts like BP’s. If you get all bothered every time you hear the word, then you have a mental blockage, a hang-up, and that is a problem because I don’t know of any full internal system that has been fully studied and figured out by the scientific community. If you are only willing to go as far as science has proven, then you will not go all the way. Plain and simple, it is a lot easier if you can accept the word qi, even as only a zen koan. -A mystery for you to solve through daily training. I have never heard of anyone who understood the entire internal ma system before actually going through it. So you have to give something that you don’t understand a chance if you are going to learn something new. Plain and simple. So think of the word qi like an x,y or z in algebra. You learn the values AFTER you solve the problem (zen koan).

It's like refusing to practice xingyi because you don't believe someone can turn into an animal. Xinyi has animal forms, and science shows that someone can't turn into an animal, so I guess it's not a real fighting system. You see what I did there? I decided that something I have no idea about is unreal, and I don't want to find out more about it because I don't believe it. Therefore, I will always think the animal forms in xingyi is bogus or that it is unnecessary to use animal terms to describe physical movements. The animal forms are the terms you learn in xingyi, and qi is a term you us in qigong and other gongs. I will never learn what the animal forms are without giving the animal forms a chance, same goes for anything else I don’t understand. You learn these things by going through the step by step process, not by accepting somenone's theory on it, or by believing qi does or does not mean something. You are focusing on irrelevent things. "Qi exists, qi doesn't exist... I don't like the term... I need furthur explanation before I can believe it enough to accept it" All nonsense, either you go through the step by step or you don't. That simple. The language we use to describe the process or the phenomenon is irrelevent, and no one here will teach you the whole step by step process over the internet (you know that though).

Quote:

...when they are used in way you refer them to, they sound like impressions you have of what’s going on..

Absolutely, but it’s easier if I just call it qi and stop over analyzing it… just train. There’s no need to identify every sensation with science and proof, or even theories. You are following the lead of your teacher, and that’s exactly what gets it done, not beliefs. Will you quit under his guidance if tomorrow he says ’qi’?

About the human magnet thing, I'm not sure about any evidence that disproves the possibility is anything more than pseudoscience in itself. But that doesn’t matter. I am speaking mostly about the thrusting routs and theory regarding it. If the magnetic theory is bogus, I'm still not going to stop training the thrusting routs… ..because I'm getting results. So what if I don't know why? Should I just say qi and look like a chi-baller? But that’s my point, if I say electromagnetism, you say it has been debunked. If I say qi, you don’t like that either. I’m certainly not going to write a 300 page post about opening and training the thrusting routs for you, I'm not going to teach the step by step over the internet. ...but I also can’t say ‘well, you will never know until you feel it for yourself’ because you don’t accept that either. I guess I’ll have to lie and say the thrusting routs don’t exist, and there is no form of energy in the body that we can call qi, that way you can live in your comfort zone. No one can just 'explain' the whole thing.

I can call my shoe 'qi' if I want. Does that mean you don't believe in my shoe because you don't believe in qi? What do you think qi means? If you don't know, then how do you disbelieve it? I don’t know what it means either, and that’s okay. I don’t have to know something for it to be real, I don’t even have to believe it. But if I’m going to benefit from the training related to it, I need to give it a chance. Hence me getting something out of ButterflyPalm’s post, and you not getting anything but frustration from it.

Really, I don’t see what’s wrong with the word qi unless it is used to deceive people.

I want to repeat again- Think of the word qi like an x,y or z in algebra. You learn the values AFTER you solve the problem

Posted by: Lucid Warrior

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 07:11 PM

BTW, I'd like to see a vid about the bag trick too. I know you said the shoulders don't move, but do the legs or anything else move? I'm just wondering if you are claiming that the bag moves by force dirrected only by internal movement without external movement, or if I missed something. Making a claim is a lot different than discussing theory or training methods. I want to see someone do this, because I must not be at the 'first rung' yet. I sure can't do it. The next step would be no touch ko, lol.

Maybe you need to re-explain it before we start expecting a fantastic vid from ya.... unless you really are going to show something like this...

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 08:00 PM

I don't claim to teach the stuff... nor that I know everything there is to know about it. But I can show someone how to use the body in certain ways that would defy logical explanation. I try to explain as best I can... (without using the word "qi", usually in terms of physics, bio or visual imagery), but sadly I'm not entirely there myself.

Which is why I'm contributing to this thread, in the hope that someone more experienced can point out the discrepancies and maybe a few pointers.

On the bag "trick"... think ground force and pressure...

PS: Obviously SOME movement is involved, even required. The question is HOW MUCH and how obvious to the casual observer.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 09:50 PM

It's not that I don't want to put a vid up.... I just don't have the technology.... I'm also in the process of moving, as you know, so at the end of this week, I'll be saying goodbye to the gym where the heavy bags are...

But I have demonstrated it and showed some how to do it. And yes, I can throw it out some "distance" without much overt movement. Remember the bag is already at 45 degrees when I'm holding it. I can't throw it out past 90 degrees (yet), but is a 25-35 degree deviation good enough?

It also depends on how heavy the bag is too.... obviously a lighter bag is going to go higher. I'm not sure how heavy the bags are at the gym I train at, but I try to pick the heaviest one.

And yes, I definitely need to train more...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 10:04 PM

that would certainly be incredable to see. too bad we probably never will though.

thanks for your effort in this thread eyrie...despite my hard-headedness in seeing the concepts and theories presented, I'm more sure now that I'm on the right track in what I'm trying to accomplish.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 10:23 PM

That's what I've (and BP) been saying all along. You're already doing it, albeit, from the external Shaolin traditions. But sometimes your harda$$, pig-headedness gets in your way... but you have a good heart and I like you.

Right now I have bigger problems, like organizing DSL and moving... so training beyond the end of the week is unfortunately, the least of my priorities...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 10:45 PM

thanks again...hope the move goes well. (I patiently wait in this thread until eyrie has everything packed, takes his last look at the forums, realizes he's running late...and just then, I throw another zinger post at 'em. mwahaha)

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 11:14 PM

That'll be right...

I'm shutting down on Sat and flying out... so anything after Fri nite won't get answered till I'm back online... could be weeks...

The point I'm trying to make is that everyone is potentially capable of doing this stuff... to varying degrees. It's the "degrees" that I'm interested in, because that gives me something to work towards....

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 11:49 PM

how 'bout 'Nth degree' ...does that work for ya?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/05/06 11:57 PM

ok, now ur being facetious....

Tell me... do you do hojo undo? Gripping jars, rolling stick, etc. etc.?

When you do hojo undo, how are you doing it? Describe in some detail what is going on. What are you focussing on in these exercises? What sort of mental imagery are you using? What muscles do you feel are being worked on and what does that feel like?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 12:48 AM

I grew up with all of usual: chishi, wristroller, beans, etc.

presently in class, it's not a usual class. no calestetics, no hojo undo, not many repitions, etc...it's purely an application study group - 80% 2-person work, 15% solo kata. 5% 'internal work' (gong li). everything else is assumed we do on our own. we do hojo undo informally before class.

at home, I only do two 5 or 10 minute hojo undo drills. Chishi and another(I don't know what it's called - it's for hand grip and forearm strengthening-I'll describe it sometime).

so I assume you are asking about chishi work. there are all sorts of drills for this. mostly it's about balance, posture, full range of motion with timed but natural breathing. I don't really know what I'm thinking, sortof nothing or drift. I don't even remember the first time learning chishi exercises...I just know their form.

the characteristic one is in horse stance with the weight straight out...move it slowly but evenly over the shoulder...then back out straight. inhale when going back...exhale going out. stance is fixed but not tense on the balls of feet - very slight forward. back and head straight. The key is full-range with even and controlled movement timed with breathing and correct posture.

why, what are you getting at?

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 01:00 AM

chishi is a good one. Let's talk about that...

Have you tried moving out on the inhale and withdraw on the exhale? When you breathe, what are you focusing on? It's simplistic to simply say "breathe in/out" - everybody does it. Do you apply any sort of internal locking for pressurization? Do you lift your knees? Tuck your tailbone? Feel the stretch in the legs? Feel the ground? When you hold your posture, where is the tension? When you move out, where is the tension?

Details... details.... as you can see, it's simplistic to describe what happens, or you can start to develop an awareness of what's going on within your body and structure as you're doing the exercise.

This is the difference and what I'm getting at....

Otherwise, it gets into the realm of "do this for another 20 years an maybe you'll get it" sort of thing.... see my point?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 09:18 AM

all the details I can't remember learning. I just do what feels right and just concentrate on the wholistic feel of it and not on details.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 10:07 AM

Hmmm, I think you missed the point... where it says "share and contribute".

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 01:25 PM

how about I make a chishi video? lol

eyrie...I think I know where you are going, but if it's all the same, I'll just keep 'internal art' things as impressions instead of expressions. I know I'm doing these exercises correctly because they feel right...not from concentrating on of the minutae of details.

at some point I must have...but I seriously don't remember the details of how it was taught.

Posted by: stormbringer

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 03:14 PM

Am I on track in interpreting that the bag exercise is developing maximum power with minimal effort at a short distance?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 04:06 PM

yup. dead on.

Posted by: stormbringer

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 04:10 PM

Is this the theory behind the 1/4 inch punch?

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 04:16 PM

no. this thread is about 1/4" blocks.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 04:19 PM

It's not an exercise as much as it is a "test" of how developed your abilities are in sourcing the power from elsewhere other than the shoulder/arms.

That you can develop *some* short distance power thru seemingly "minimal" effort is a by-product of the real "exercise" that I am trying to get Ed to verbalize.

Posted by: stormbringer

Re: Neigong - 11/06/06 04:23 PM

In the bag exercise (which I don't have one and am trying to find a substitute), are you "channeling" the energy from other parts of your body, or using muscles from outside the arm/shoulders?

Neigong

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