Western Philosophy and Zen

Posted by: Anonymous

Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/14/05 09:49 PM

I've long been under the impression that Zen as a state of mind or spiritual discipline was confined only to the East, both in substance and conception. However, after reading the work of the Western and Eastern philosophers, I have reached a precipice.

Either Zen is an Eastern discovery and application; or it is not. From my readings and own thoughts; I've concluded that Zen is not relegated to any specific philosophy or religion, or indeed any hemisphere of thought.

Descartes himself practiced Zen, albeit under different terms. His continual self doubt and questioning led him to the only truth that he could absolutely know.

Cogito, ergo sum. I think; therefore, I am.

I believe that Zen is common the world over, and is present in any philosophy that deals with the discovery or truth. However; to refer to it as simply Zen does a disservice to the other cultures and philosophies that have applied it.

Am I presumptuous; or just plain wrong?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/14/05 10:01 PM

Zen as any other religion/philosophy is mereley a vehicle/instructions for the path to enlightenment. it is a pure teaching. to label it with a culture is to defile it. zen takes the heart suttra and the diamond suttra to a fine needle point. all religions/philosophys point to the same truth(dharma). as Dogen Zenji stated "a thousand million dew drops all reflect the moon, yet, still, only one moon."

^gassho^

[This message has been edited by wolfscalissi (edited 04-14-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/14/05 10:12 PM

So then Socrates, Descartes, Kant, Miller, Gautama, Lao Tzu, and all the other philosophers simply searched for the same thing.

Huh. That's a precept I've long used to justify my belief in God; wasn't aware that anyone else believed it.

I quote St. Paul; "It is not a strange thing for the truth to come from two mouths."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/14/05 10:44 PM

Thank you for your words. descartes missed the mark tho "cogito ergo sum" is one of the biggest philosophical blunders of all time...as such he suffered under the weight of it. The truth in any teaching lies beneath the mind. as soon as you say"I know this" or "I know that" yo are a victim of your own preceptions and predjudices. In your religion it is to be a VESSEL for God. if you are "full" of knowledge how can this be? Trapped by the dark veil of knowledge I rest in unrest and suffer for my desires.

^gassho^
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/14/05 11:10 PM

Hello members,
Thank you for handling discussions responsibly and respectfully. I would like to encourage everyone choose words wisely so we can all continue to learn from each other.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/14/05 11:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
Hello members,
Thank you for handling discussions responsibly and respectfully.

Hello oldman I am new here and happy to find open minds to chat with. well done

may your life go well

^gassho^
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:13 AM

Yunsung

Wrong [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

All kidding aside the use of "Zenlike" thought may be widespread but the word itself and specifc practices are unique to Zen itself.

Take your example of Descartes, you say yourself that he "practiced Zen" so you musy see that what Desartes was doing was a practice so similar to Zen that you used it NAME to describe it.

To me that would indicate that your using a specifc term, that is used to describe a specifc form of relgious/spritual/philiosophy to describe the actions of ANOTHER person.
To me that indicates that the actions are NOT what you suggest.

On the other hand, Zen is a product of China, filtered thu Japanese outslooks and principles--so I guess you could argue that
Zen changes with the place its in.

Excellent question!!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:28 AM

umm....Zen has it's roots from India.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 01:53 PM

Kara

Yeah, most forms of Buddist thought can be traced back to India--the sect that eventually became known as the "zen" sect is Chinese.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 03:21 PM

Let me explain what I meant a little clearer.

I see God as absolute perfection in every way; knowledge, virtue, application of said knowledge. However, he is not simply the abstract quality of those things, he is a sentient being. I say this because we as a species are counted as the "higher animals" because we think, we reason; and we know how to apply that knowledge.

It woulf follow that anything greater than us must not only be more powerful, but also more rational and sentient.

As such; I see it as no bad thing to be filled with knowledge. After all; God is knowledge. If you know that what you know is true, then there is nothing wrong with claiming to know it.

As for your comment about Descartes, his was more of a metaphysical observation than a philosophical argument.

Cogito, ergo sum stems from the fact that we know of our own existance because we think. You can doubt everything except for the fact that you doubt.

What Descartes did to apply this to God was to point out that doubting itself was a path towards truth; thusly man knows of his own existance and the existance of something greater than man.

Two cents tossed in from the West.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 03:46 PM

back to Zen... cxt, sorry, I disagree.

all of these words mean "meditation":
"Zen" in Japanese
"Chan" in Chinese
"dhyana" in Sanskrit

which language is oldest?


I came to this land originally to transmit the Dharma
And to bring deliverance from error.
A flower opens five petals.
The fruit of itself opens.



[This message has been edited by kara-atama (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 03:47 PM

Yun

Except Buddism "says" that what you consider "reality" is "really" largely a hugly complex and complicated illusion created by your desires.
To be really strict about it--and in keeping with the Descates link.
You only "think" your "thinking." The very things your "thinking" about don't "really" exsist.

Strict reading of Zen (depending on sect) would indicate that "god" in small "g" or large "G" sense does not exsist.
Budda himnself does not exsist.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 03:54 PM

Kara

Interesting question--I'm still sticking with where the actual sect that actaully became Zen (in Japan) came from.

I would agree that Buddism ITSELF came from India---thus the terms and some underpinnings would have to be Indian in nature--but the sect that became Zen was Chinese.
And it differed in signifiacnt fashion from "indian" buddism.
Heck, it differed from most CHINESE buddism.

Although there was an obscure and suppressed sect (the name of which escapes me at the momment--suppressed to the extent that we only know of it thu its texts) that was MUCH more "zenlike" than extent versions.
Even there though I don't think that they had any direct connection.

Honestly enjoying this discussion--thanks [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 03:55 PM

And that's exactly why I'll stick to my nicely stratified Western precepts. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

I find it much more conducive to my thinking and goals to imagine, even falsely, that there is a set goal of morality or "goodness" for me to work towards attaining. In this way, I do not lose motivation by studying philosophy.

I simply gain it anew.

[This message has been edited by Yunsung (edited 04-15-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Yunsung (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 04:01 PM

Yun

You know I ALMOST said "I don't think so!!!" then I noticed my left hand starting to vanish" so I stopped right away!!!

(yeah, I know OLD, OLD, OLD joke--but its the best I could do late on Friday afternoon.)

Enjoy your weekend [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 04:06 PM

Same to you. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Good discussion; hope we get some more input.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 06:07 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yunsung:
Same to you. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Good discussion; hope we get some more input.
[/QUOTE]

hello yunsung its me again..
ask yourself this simple question..when i say the word "God" what "image comes to mind? many western thinkers would picture an old man with a beard and a robe...why would this be true? if you "attach" to any image that was creted by the mind of man you will likely never find what you seek. you are attached to what your mind wants to see and it is not reality. zen and buddhism do not contradict western religions there are numerous cases of zen catholic priests and zen judaica. the teachings will allow you to go deeply into your own religions TEACHINGS. If we were at one with the knowledge of what "God " wanted...why would we seek? we are here ....we are seeking...that which we seek is not lost ...we are
^gassho^

dont mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon


[This message has been edited by wolfscalissi (edited 04-15-2005).]

[This message has been edited by wolfscalissi (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 07:47 PM

Religion, thinking thoughts/cognition and even a high state awareness of non-thinking are all in the way of knowing.

Interesting discussion, but academic.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 08:19 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by harlan:
Religion, thinking thoughts/cognition and even a high state awareness of non-thinking are all in the way of knowing.

Interesting discussion, but academic.
[/QUOTE]

harlan,
It may be the constraints of the forum rules that are keeping things more academic. And that is probably good. I a new moderator I am aware of the challenges of this forum.
It takes a degree of skill with language to convey important ideas without cross the lines.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 08:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by harlan:
Interesting discussion, but academic.
[/QUOTE]

interesting yes. academic? its only simple if you know the answer. from the first sound of the first word enlightenment is lost. the mind takes over and we become unaware of all that arises from no-thing. zen is not academic really...there are no doctorates on "no mind" you can study it from the outside and fool yourself into believing that knowing is understanding followed by the dreadfull "understanding is enlightenment " trap . all you can do then is flush and begin again.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] ^gassho^
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 08:20 PM

Hi harlan,
I'd like to see an example of a non-academic topic, any ideas?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 08:38 PM

It will be interesting to see where we go in the coming days and weeks. We may find we accomplish nothing but further boring already bored teens. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 08:57 PM

I'm a teen, and I'm not bored. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

When I think of God, I don't think of a person. I think of a being beyond my comprehension and knowledge, and address him with proper reverence. To quantify God with an image that He did not choose is to limit His power by the standards of your own mind.

Also, the questions you asked... "Why are we here, what are we here for, why do we do the things we do?"

Read Plato; Socrates asks many of the same questions.



[This message has been edited by Yunsung (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 09:14 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yunsung:
I'm a teen, and I'm not bored. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]


Also, the questions you asked... "Why are we here, what are we here for, why do we do the things we do?"

Read Plato; Socrates asks many of the same questions.

Wise men and fools ask the same questions. neither can answer. why is this so? the fool knows not the path and the wise man thinks he does. great suffering binds both to samsara.

shu jo mu hen sei gan do.
Read buddha...he answers these questions


^gassho^
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 09:25 PM

Do some research on Socrates; his main belief came from the Oracle at Delphi, who had said that no man was wiser than he.

He eventually came to understand that no man was wiser than he because he alone knew that no one was wise.

His debunking of the Sophists and "wise men" of Athens, along with his association with Cleon and Alcibiades, led to his execution.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 09:44 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yunsung:
Do some research on Socrates
Socrates wrote nothing because he felt that knowledge was a living, interactive thing. Socrates' method of philosophical inquiry consisted in questioning people on the positions they asserted and working them through questions into a contradiction, thus proving to them that their original assertion was wrong. Socrates himself never takes a position. hmmm sounds vagueley familiar to our disscussions, no? just remember that all of the knowledge, power and wealth that you can amass in this life are not you. do not think that you know. ask yourself who am I. got it? good! now take away all of the things that you and your ego/mind made up about who you are and why you are here...hmmm adam and eve were bannished from the garden of eden for....? eating an apple from the tree of knowledge! and humans have been in a state of fallen from grace ever since. thank you for the most enlightening discussion! tho i am not a teen im not bored either

may your life go well
^gassho^
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:01 PM

It's been argued in some intellectual circles that Socrates could read, but not write. There are many conflicting evidences (he quotes Pindar and Hesiod, but asks Phaedo to write out a copy of his will). We'll never really know.

All the same, Socrates' position as chief interlocutor of Athens (and subsequent dismissal of all pre-conceived notions thereof) are the very foundation of Western thought.

Socrates actually did have a personal philosophy, he espoused it rather dismissively in Plato's Apology. He refers to the fact that he believes in a god that he cannot name, and knows only by his pursuit of wisdom. At this, Anytus accuses him of being impious. Socrates responds by pointing out that if he simply called his god Zeus, or Athena, or Dionysus; then he would not be impious. But, he continues, to quantify the god like that is to strip it of its power.

He ends his speech to the Athenian Assembly with one of the most famous lines in history...

"Now we go our seperate ways; I to die, and you to live. But which is better, God only knows."

[This message has been edited by Yunsung (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:13 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wolfscalissi:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yunsung:
Do some research on Socrates
adam and eve were bannished from the garden of eden for....? eating an apple from the tree of knowledge!

may your life go well
^gassho^
[/QUOTE]

To be as accurate as possible the quoted text doesn't say the (tree of knowledge), but "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:18 PM

A point, I say, a point.

This implies that man cannot know what is good or evil; I take it as an admonishment that what is like God is good, what is not like God is evil. Thusly we have no need of our own definitions.

But I'd love to hear your point of view on the story, Oldman.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:26 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
To be as accurate as possible
Thank you oldman.the knowledge of good and evil. is this not the knowledge of duality? the mind is unaware of any thing that it can not place in opposition to something else. if not for dark how would we percieve light. there in lies the problem, darkness does not "exsist" it is only an absence of light(?) so all of the realities we create with our minds have to have duality. in zen all things arise from "no-thing", with out no-thing we could percieve nothing(sic) as is true in christian based religions God has no begining nor end (eternal) so therfore no duality. God and no-thing are beyond the minds comprehension. our reality requires these "things" in order to exist in our minds.God/no-thing is all things but would still exsist without them thus the dark veil of knowledge.

^gassho^

[This message has been edited by wolfscalissi (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:55 PM

I would contend that knowing more of God does not thicken the veil created by our perceptions, but rather lifts them.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/15/05 10:56 PM

If I start thinking about this now I'll be up all night [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I'll see you guys tomorrow.

Thanks for chatting.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/16/05 07:59 AM

Since Judeo/Christian philosophy came up, I would like to point out that I find it funny that the Western concept of God's appearance is actually the description given in the Book of Revelations of The Messiah returned.

On the serious note, Zen itself is a sect of Buddhism that comes to us out of Japan, but the concepts themselves, are they not the quest for meaning that Humankind has pursued since the dawn of our history. Every great philosopher/prophet/messiah has percieved the human condition of being less than perfect and sought to find a way to negate that fact. Is not the quest of life to attain perfection? It does indeed seem a pointless quest on the surface, for we all know that true perfection is unattainable, but does not the lifelong quest become attained when we die, knowing full well that we spent our lives seeking that which cannot be found in our percieved reality?

I will use Alexander the Great as an example. While his initial motive may have been to squash the Persian empire that he hated so much, was not his ultimate goal to create an empire that unified all of the known world under one language, one religion, and one philosophy? In essence, was not Alexander seeking to create the perfect world?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/16/05 10:06 AM

He actually was not. The Greek historian in Alexander's staff (before Alexander executed him, that is) wrote that Alexander needed the plunder from further conquests to pay for the upkeep and supply of his army on the journey back from Persia to Greece. He refused to use the plunder at Persepolis because he wanted all the wealth of the Achaeamenid kings at his personal disposal.

He was contemplating an invasion of Arabia to gain the necessary materiale' for the dispersion of his troops among his satraps when he died.

His Successors, the Diadochi, immediately sped off to their satraps with the troops loyal to them, and proceeded to war with each other for the next 250 years or so.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/16/05 02:57 PM

Alexander never made it back to Greece. He took ill while in Persepolis and died far from his home. And there was more than enough plunder to be found when he conquered Persia. Basically, his move to conquer territories outside of Persia and Egypt had other motivations.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/16/05 04:10 PM

Alexander died in Babylon. I don't think I ever mentioned him going back to Greece; just that he was planning to go back at some point in the future.

He was not motivated by the brotherhood of man. Alexander killed more of his own men by crossing the Gedrosian desert than had ever died at the hands of the Persians.

Alexander's reign was a senseless orgy of rampant violence made global. Nothing more.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/16/05 10:14 PM

Not to divert what I find to be an interesting expose on a martial figure, my two cents on
Western Philosophy and Zen:

All doctrines/religions are empty houses. Their upkeep depends entirely upon new people moving in to replace previous maintainers.

Zen appeals because it says...nothing. Expects...nothing. Promises...nothing. You can take Buddhist precepts...or not.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/17/05 04:47 AM

I never said Alexander wasn't violent. Not to many people were opposed to violence in his era. What I posit is that Alexander had other motives after he defeated the Persians, and greed isn't very high on the list. As for brotherhood, no that term doesn't quite fit. Alexander was Macedonian/Greek, and wanted the world to conform to Greek ideals/philosophy/religion. I posit a theory of higher motive because the plunder from everything after Persia wouldn't have been enough to pay for the overall campaign and have extra. Invading India seems to be the only campaign that would have paid for itself and made a substantial profit, and that was a drastic failure.

Now, back to my original line, Alexander was personally taught by Aristotle, who was taught by Plato, who was taught by Socrates. All three of the philosophers held beliefs similar to those of Buddhism/Zen. Alexander, in his biased view, was trying to spread that "wisdom" throughout the known world of his time, not knowing that (and if he did know, he didn't understand or really care to) three similar philosophies were beginning to spread throughout the part of the world beyond the Hindu Kush/Himalayan mountain ranges.

Yunsung, as to you being a teenager, if you are, you aren't from the US, or you're a case as rare as I was. I've never had this engaging a conversation with a teenager before.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/17/05 11:56 AM

I'm 16, and from Louisiana. I suppose even the U.S. holds surprises.

Learn something new every day. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/17/05 12:03 PM

As for Socrates teaching Plato, who taught Aristotle... there were large gaps from Socrates' death to Plato's school at Academe being set up. By the time Aristotle met Plato, Plato's thought had already diverged substantially from the Socratic precepts he held in his youth.

As a consequence, Aristotle learned only the gist of Socrates' teachings. Plato focused more upon philosophers like Pythagoras at Academe, thus making Aristotle's thought even less "Zen-like" than his teacher's.

By the time Alexander was instructed, Aristotle's own thought had diverged from his master Plato's. It was said of Aristotle that "like a new tyrant or Persian king, he did not feel secure until he had butchered his relations."

Aristotle spent most of his life attempting to rebut the precepts of Socrates, and to a lesser extent those of Plato.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/17/05 01:25 PM

I thought that Pythagoras was a mathematician? I could see Plato including his theories in the education of his students so as to round out their education. And as for Socrates not being able to write, that is very likely because Socrates left nothing written behind. Everything we do know about him and his philosophy came to us from Plato. Aristotle isn't really my strong point, just never really cared, him being like the last in line and all, but I have read some of the works of Plato, and some of Plato's writings on Socrates. Everything that I've ever read seems to suggest that Plato was very in line with what Socrates taught, but as Plato is the chief source of info on Socrates, then Plato might have written Socrates to sound like himself.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/17/05 02:05 PM

Plato's early writings (Phaedo, Apology, Crito, Hippias major and minor) are very much in line with Socrates as espoused by Xenophon and Demotas of Megara as well.

His middle writings (Symposium, Republic, Critias, Euthypyro) show a trend towards metaphysics and away from the ethical standpoint proposed by Socrates.

And his late writings (Gorgias, Laches, Infirmia) all show a total change from Socrates. These late writings were undertaken about the time that he began his Academy.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/17/05 10:18 PM

I'd damn well better live forever, there's just too much to learn in the normal lifespan. Great, and I just had my reading list pared down to the point where I thought I might actually finish it and could start a new one.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 05:48 AM

Aaaah, Yes. *Flexes fingers, pops knuckles* How did I miss this thread?

Yunsung, you make me happy. 16, southern (Howdy neighbor), and this profound?? I always considered myself deep and thoughtful at 16, but I would have paled in comparison to you. Nicely done!

Now then,

"Aristotle spent most of his life attempting to rebut the precepts of Socrates, and to a lesser extent those of Plato."

Perfect line from Yunsung from which to begin my entry.

Aristotle got it right, and because of that way of thinking, I feel he was the wisest of all.

The relationship between Western Philosophy and Zen? Harumph! Everything, whether it be religion, or philosophy, politics, or military, has a relation with other parts of the world. Zen and western philosophy are no exception.

Closely we look at the male dominance in religion, western religion respectively ...Ignore eastern, focus on your own culture for now.

Pagan belief was circulated around The Holy Mother, but with the advent and rise of Christianity, God came into the picture. The Holy Mother became The Father, the Son, yadda yadda.

Among these pagan beliefs was a diety by the name of Pan. Half man, Half goat ...Horns, Hooves, hair, and pipe ..Occupation? Whisking away females with his enchanting music. Suddenly, Pan's physical characteristics were stolen upon a new diety (for lack of a better term) ...Gods Anti-thesis, if you will.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone ..merely from a historical standpoint derived from my own learning.


"I believe that Zen is common the world over, and is present in any philosophy that deals with the discovery or truth. However; to refer to it as simply Zen does a disservice to the other cultures and philosophies that have applied it."

Another quote from you, Yungsung. Exactly!!

To label any philosophy, or religion, would do nothing but defile it simply due to the amount of gradual, something drastic and sporadic changes inherent from each philosphy, or religiouns inception.

So yes, Zen is seen in every form of thought, as is Indias, or Japans, or Romans own philosophers ideals.

In short ...The world is just one big philosophical grab-bag. Those seeking answers to questions, or simply more questions, waltz on over to that grab-bag, pick-and-choose, and either follow it strictly, or deform it to their own needs and desires.

Gah! So much more needs to be said ...Please, don't quit now!

-Ket

Edit: (Twice!) Edited in order to agree with the Forum guidelines and procedures. I took as much as I could, without having to delete the whole thread. I appreciate you allowing me to edit myself, Oldman, and if this still is not up to Forum Norm, I will take no offense upon deletion.

[This message has been edited by Ket (edited 04-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ket (edited 04-19-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 07:42 AM

Ket,
So far we have managed to keep the discussions relevent and respectful. I 'd like you to give you the opportunity to edit your post. I would like you to do that considering forum standards and rules. I could easily do it myself but I would like you to do it. I want you to keep what you feel to be essential. On the other hand I would like you to consider what portions of your post might be considered inflamitory.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 11:41 AM

Ket, you are definitely correct in your praise of yunsung. He is a rare find among 16 year olds.

An aside on pagan religions. First of all, the term should be plural, as it is more of an umbrella term covering hundreds and even thousands of different religions/sects. Not all of them are maternal in aspect.

There is an element of zen in every religion/philosophy we have today. The main differences are of nuance and ritual, and who the chief/only deity is. There is also a fair amount of dualism in most if not all religions. Like you said, in the dark/middle ages of Europe, the characteristics of Pan were taken and used to describe Lucifer. One of the main purposes was to villify sex outside of marriage and sex for any purpose other than procreation. I've noticed that people who spend alot of time praying/meditating tend to be people of power. This isn't to degenerate this topic into a ki ball/third eye/insert other mystical power here debate. I'm just saying that if you want evidence, look for practitioners of the MA who spend alot of time meditating. Check up on people like Benny Hinn, or churches that claim to be in a continual "revival". I neither support nor condemn the claims made, I'm just saying that these people tend to spend alot of time in prayer. Something about the human mind is hardwired to have a spiritual side, and when that portion of us is tapped and developed, we seem to have alot more potential.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 12:08 PM

Ket

I think you need to be a bit more careful in your blanket statements as to what "pagen" worship consisted of.

As many gods as there were pagens.

And the greeks, all the way back to the Mycenian (sp) worshipped a whole group of gods--headed by a male deity.

Some male, some female, even the "great mother" (to use your phrase) had a male counterpart.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 12:14 PM

some philosophies try to explain the unknown.

some simply accept the unknown to fate.

Zen is unique in that it co-exists with the unknown.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 12:45 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kintama:
some philosophies try to explain the unknown.

some simply accept the unknown to fate.

Zen is unique in that it co-exists with the unknown.

[/QUOTE]

Kin,
In Aquinas's commentary on Bothius's ( De Sancta Trinitate) he says the highest degree of knowledge in regards to God is to know God as unknown, (tamquam ignotum). In his ( Questio Disputata de Potentia Dei) Aquinas says " This is what is ultimate in the human knowledge of God---to know that we do not know God". He was theologian, a Mystic, and a cannonized Catholic saint.

Once again I'm neither a Catholic or a Zenist but it is possible to find common ground among traditions that at first glance seem profoundly divergent.




[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 04-19-2005).]
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 01:02 PM

OLdman

There is book entitled (I think) The Wisdom of the Saints--quotes from a number of early Christian Saints.

Very surprising (or perhaps not so much) that many of the quotes are very, very like (in tone, content etc) the saying handed down by eastern schools of thought and THEIR important people.

I suppose you could consider (or at least argue) that such areas of similarity argue for the exsistance of God.
Or it could be that people being people, must face the same set of fears, doubt, hopes and asperations as everyone else--so its not that much of a surprise that we find similar "copeing methods."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 01:06 PM

One could argue could both positions.... just not in this forum. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 01:23 PM

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 02:55 PM

I believe that C.S. Lewis used that same argument very effectively throughout his career. He (and I, for that matter) thought that every philosophy in the world pointed in the same direction because there was a common goal (wisdom) that all philosophies (philo-lover sophis-wisdom) looked towards.

Also, Satan is not God's antithesis in the strict sense. He is not eternal or omnipotent. As such, he is more the anti-thesis of Micha-el than anything else.

My stance is... we don't feel the heat from a flame without there being a flame any more than we can see the effects and the path to wisdom without there being a source for said wisdom.

Hail Ol' Luzianne.

[This message has been edited by Yunsung (edited 04-19-2005).]
Posted by: cxt

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 03:40 PM

Yun

In the strict sense satan is nothing more than part of gods plan.
Subserveient to gods will and depending on the version of the bible you subscribe to, ultimatly doomed.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Western Philosophy and Zen - 04/19/05 04:00 PM

I do believe We've come full circle. My first act as Moderator was to delete the "Demons" post and here we are again. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I Thought JohnL was supposed to be the DemonModerator. I think for now I'd like to place this under lock and key. At least for now. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]




[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 04-19-2005).]