Disgrace

From the Tao

"Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition".

What do youthink Lao Tsu meant by "Accept disgrace willingly"?

Or to put it another way. Why accept disgrace willingly?

To accept loss of recognition, honour and titles - to become at peace with oneself in what appears to be a disharmonious position.

To accept that life has it's ups and downs and be able to accept them with equaniminity.

Lao Tsu also wrote:

"Can you see the calm in turbulent waters;
the clarity in murky water?

Can you allow the tides of Infinite change
to move you from stillness to motion
and action to inaction;
experiencing but not contemplating the
change?"

Could Lao Tsu be telling us that disgrace (or honor) is impermanent and superficial? One of the predominant themes of this type of thinking is for one to wish for things as they are. This is an attitude of acceptance and willingness to take with indifference whatever life may throw your way.

I have seen the word "willingly" also translated as "indifferently" which I believe to be a better translation in this case.

I'd like to hear some other thoughts.

--Dallas

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dallas:
Lao Tsu also wrote:

"Can you see the calm in turbulent waters;
the clarity in murky water?

Can you allow the tides of Infinite change
to move you from stillness to motion
and action to inaction;
experiencing but not contemplating the
change?"

Could Lao Tsu be telling us that disgrace (or honor) is impermanent and superficial? One of the predominant themes of this type of thinking is for one to wish for things as they are. This is an attitude of acceptance and willingness to take with indifference whatever life may throw your way.

I have seen the word "willingly" also translated as "indifferently" which I believe to be a better translation in this case.

I'd like to hear some other thoughts.

--Dallas [/QUOTE]


The 3 characteristics of existence in Buddhism teach that all existence is:

Impermanent
Unsatisfactory
Not self

This would appear to be what Lao Tsu is alluding to, whether its good or bad change it's an illusion - it's just change and to try and to have an unnatural attraction or aversion to it will only cause dis-ease.

A good word for me would be to accept it all with equaniminity.

But Lao Zi (official pinyin translitteration) wasn't buddhist, he was taoist (well, FOUNDED toism, to be more accurate)... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Actually, wasn't Taoism founded based on the Tao Te Ching and not specifically by him?

I don't think he "founded" Taoism because he did not want to be followed, did not want to be emulated. Am I totally off base on that? I thought I had read that, but I could be mistaken.

Joel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
From the Tao

"Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition".

What do youthink Lao Tsu meant by "Accept disgrace willingly"?

Or to put it another way. Why accept disgrace willingly?[/QUOTE]


Aceeptance is the first step to compassion. without compassion we suffer. ask yourself disgrace as opposed to......? Remove the duality of mind and the answer lies bare.

<gassho>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoelM:
Actually, wasn't Taoism founded based on the Tao Te Ching and not specifically by him?

I don't think he "founded" Taoism because he did not want to be followed, did not want to be emulated. Am I totally off base on that? I thought I had read that, but I could be mistaken.

Joel

[/QUOTE]


It's arguable whether taoism is buddhist as it arose at the same time as buddhist texts were being circulated in China, but I was simply using buddhist teachings to explain what I thought Lao Tsu meant.

Would it be safe to say that Zen as practiced in japan is a branch of buddism influenced by Taoism and shintoism?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
Would it be safe to say that Zen as practiced in japan is a branch of buddism influenced by Taoism and shintoism?[/QUOTE]

Yeah - Zen buddhism emanates from the Chinese Chan buddhism.

Many trees in an orchard means some amount of cross-pollination.

An interesting history book on Shingon, that mentions Zen influence is:

Shingon: Japanese Esoteric Buddhism, by Taiko Yamasaki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bossman:
Yeah - Zen buddhism emanates from the Chinese Chan buddhism.[/QUOTE]
Zen is just the liquid which,if allowed, fills the vessel into which it is poured....interesting will be what does the"western" vessel look like


<gassho>

Simply put it means dont be a sore loser lol seriously that;s what I think it means.

its all is what you make it why not just accept it for that untill you can identify truth then that is what it is.then work from there =accept
the man/womans of virtue seems prepared for all things because s/he accepts them as they arise. knowing things are not all ways as they seem acceptance of the first illusion allows for further assesment of the situation
struggling to change qualities of embarasment, disgrace, discomfort, unbalance usualy causes more of the same. when embarased employ confidence, when disgraced be grace full, when discomforted find balance, when unbalanced find center, gracefully, confidently, for comfort.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoelM:
Actually, wasn't Taoism founded based on the Tao Te Ching and not specifically by him? I don't think he "founded" Taoism because he did not want to be followed, did not want to be emulated. Am I totally off base on that?[/QUOTE]

I believe taoism goes back much further than Lao Tzu and Tao te Ching. The I Ching is the real original book of tao and it goes back much further, unless I am terribly mistaken.

I think disgrace is a perception of yourself based on how you believe others perceive you. In essence, you are basing your self worth on something outside yourself.

I believe Lao Tzu meant that it can be a educational tool, but not something that should be held on to....

For example, if I made fun of oldman and called him a panzy, he probably wouldn't feel much disgrace. But if people thought i was attaking one of the respected members on the forum, they might look down on me with disgrace.

If I accepted this disgrace, I would realize how my statement affected others and learn that I probably shouldnt have called oldman a panzy (sorry). And I would move on, learning something about manners for the future.

If I didnt accept the disgrace, I could either be mad at the entire forum, how dare they think ill of me? putting myself out of alignment with the tao, or I could continually judge myself based on other people's beliefs, also putting myself in disharmony with the tao.

To the taoist, then, the only option is to accept the disgrace for what it is and move on.

just my thoughts...and no I dont think oldman is a panzy.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

The rest of the chapter.....

Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.
What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss and gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly".
What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?
Surrender yourself humbly;
then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self;
then you can truly care for all things.

So, oldman, have you answered your question?

Yes and no. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

oldman,

any feedback on my analogy regarding disgrace?

good bad or ugly, hit me with it...i wont be disgraced...hardee har har

The best way I can think of to address the idea of Disgrace is to start with what it is not, Grace. Grace can be defined as:

Unmerited favor

Or

Unconditional positive regard.

Disgrace then becomes the time in our lives when we fail to extend grace or receive grace to ourselves or others. In my experience grace is a rare and beautiful thing. We are all so conditioned by nature and nurture to believe that there is no free lunch. We come to believe that no one gets something for nothing. We so easily practice our arts as a meritocracy; we understand cause and effect. Hard work equals reward. We also believe in fairness. Quid pro Quo. Life then goes to instruct us that hard work does not always equal reward and my kindness to you can be used against me to your advantage. So we learn to defend ourselves emotionally and physically. We go as far
Create an identity for ourselves that is not actually who we are, a false self. This "self" is not us. I is who we feel we need to be to avoid shame and earn praise honor and glory which serve as substitutes for what we truly long for which is to love. So we strive and scrap and wage war to gain what we think we need all the while chasing a shadow or a reflection of the thing we truly long for, love offer offered generously offered for no reason condition or stings. Sadly and truthfully Lao tsu is correct. Disgrace is the norm and needs to be accepted with equanimity. Instead of striving to become something or someone in the desperate hope our deepest needs will be met we can attack life "in sutemi" abandoning the body, giving our lives to serve rather than being served. Surrendering ourselves humbly, committed to loving and caring for all things, freely offering and receiving grace.

To the right teacher, the right student.

Nice.....

I had interpreted disgrace as relative to social position, since much of lao tzu's book revolves around the kingdom analogy.

But I like your thoughts...

It would seem one would have to learn how to accept grace and disgrace equally, to be at one with the tao.

I know people who hate to experience grace, for they dont want handouts, or pitied. So for them, grace becomes disgrace. But to accept disgrace is to have grace. So it seems the two are intimately connected and are one.

Hopefully that make sense and im not just playing with words....

Its kinda like when two fighters spar and one is more skilled than the other. If the better opponent lets the lesser win, there is both grace and disgrace for both men. If the better opponent does his utmost and makes quick work of his opponent, then there is grace and disgrace for each man there as well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrEd:
Nice.....

"I had interpreted disgrace as relative to social position, since much of lao tzu's book revolves around the kingdom analogy".

Mine is a kingdom analogy also.

'It would seem one would have to learn how to accept grace and disgrace equally, to be at one with the tao".

Or at least be honest about or needs and desires.

"I know people who hate to experience grace, for they dont want handouts, or pitied".

I am pitiful.

"So for them, grace becomes disgrace".

Because it points out flawed strategies and the illusion that they are self sufficient.

"But to accept disgrace is to have grace".

To accept a sanwich is to have a sanwich.


"So it seems the two are intimately connected and are one".

Bread is bread, meat is meat. Both are a sandwich.

"Hopefully that make sense and im not just playing with words...."

I am playing and having a glorious time!
I call pleasure pleasure.

"Its kinda like when two fighters spar and one is more skilled than the other. If the better opponent lets the lesser win, there is both grace and disgrace for both men. If the better opponent does his utmost and makes quick work of his opponent, then there is grace and disgrace for each man there as well".

It's kinda like eating a sandwch. It all comes out in the end. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]