Daily Zen: Week 6

Posted by: Anonymous

Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/07/05 11:34 PM

After discussion between oldman and myself, I have decided that the Daily Zen thread will now be a permanent resident of the Meditation/Zen Forum, it's rightful place.

Day 1:

The Buddha was wandering through India shortly after his enlightenment. Several men encountered him, and sensed something quite extraordinary about the handsome monk. "Are you a god?" they asked.
"No," he answered.
"Well, are you a deva or an angel?"
"No."
"Some kind of wizard or magician?"
"No," he said again.
Finally, perplexed, the men asked, "Well, what are you?"
"I am awake," he answered.

Buddhist Mondo
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 01:19 AM

the question is not about different kinds of beings, it's about different levels of being?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 03:12 AM

Perhaps he's just saying he sees everying for what it is? There are no gods, or angels, or any man higher then the other ..and the fact that he see's this makes him awake.....? possibly?

He can recognize that fine line between good and evil, right and wrong, perpetually living in the gray area that most people forget exists.

Interested about what others think.

-Ket
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 03:30 AM

He is saying there is great power in enlightenment. Notice that the men Buddha first meets after his awakening first ask him "Are you a god?" Enlightenment is the true key to power, for then we understand that power avails us nothing.


Edit: G*d D*mn flood control.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 10:32 AM

ok flood control is a little annoying. i had a great response all typed out and them blocked. And of course my unelightened *ss went and x-ed out of the screen.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 11:33 AM

I am awake.

awake=buddha

Says it all.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 11:42 AM

Not everyone who is enlightened/awakened is a buddha, at least to my knowledge. I have read of many Zen monks and nuns who have become enlightened, and I don't recall any who were referred to as a buddha. So I believe it is more than the fact that he is a buddha.

A buddha is always enlightened, but an enlightened person is not always a buddha.
That is my little ven diagram for this quandry.

Of course I have no formal knowledge of what constitutes a buddha or an enlightened person, this is based only on what I have read and thought.

Joel
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 12:20 PM

Perhaps a matter of semantics, perhaps translation.

I'm no scholar, but one intepretation of the sanskrit word 'buddha' is 'awake'?

[This message has been edited by harlan (edited 04-08-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 12:34 PM

Buddha was probably known at one time as his real name 'Siddhartha Gautama', and only later called Buddha. In Sanskrit, buddha was a word already meaning enlightened, or the past participle of 'bodhati', he awakes.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 01:21 PM

Well, the version of the Buddhist Mondo used above was "I am awake" (not 'I am enlightened"). Perhaps a difference in degree in interpretation, or in 'degree'.

Modern wayfarers could just as easily ask "are you a god...or are you a Buddha...". To me, the above points directly to the inclination to objectify/iconize, and Buddha was pointing out the most important thing...is to be awake.

Striving to put Buddha on a pedastal (sp?), or splitting hairs over degrees of being 'enlightened' is counter-productive to the state of 'suchness'.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 01:25 PM

Knowledge is learning something every day. Wisdom is letting go of something every day.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/08/05 01:51 PM

It is is human nature to Iconize. It helps us to relate in some degree. Humans as a whole are very one-track minded, what we cant see we cant believe. Hence the Iconization of budda, and jesus, the hindu gods, ect. prince Sidartha himself was a hindu and worshiped Idols of the gods. He like jesus tried to break man of this but to no avail, man simply turned them into icons

[This message has been edited by respekt (edited 04-08-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 01:33 AM

Day 2:

Sneezing,
I lost sight
of the skylark.

- Yayu
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 03:08 AM

I'm stumped ...

-Ket
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 03:14 AM

it's not a very good thing for an ornitologist to have a cold
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 05:48 AM

It is the little things in life that can distract us and cause us to lose sight of something beautiful to behold.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 07:04 AM

'Sneezing,
I lost sight
Of the skylark'

Sneezing is a metaphor for the human weakneses/imperfections that so often seem to mess things up for us.

When Yayu was observing the skylark, his body was not an important factor to the process.He was still of body and peacefull of mind, the sneeze was the physical self spoiling his harmony with the world around him.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 10:36 AM

And I thought he just closed his eyes for a moment!

I understand it more like, when you sneeze...you sneeze. Fully in the moment/process.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 02:31 PM

Could someone explain what is being discussed in the daily zen thread? The "stories" and their meanings?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 07:29 PM

Why must the sneeze be a bad thing? Why was Yayu so focused on the sparrow? The sneeze may be what Yayu needed to reach the state of mushin, to take his mind from the sparrow to nothing.

any thoughts?

Kosh, Daily Zen is a creation of mine in which I post a "zen" quote every day and have members give their interpretations, additions, contradictions, and confusions relating to the quote. Weeks one through five are in the Martial Arts Talk Forum, if you need more information or want to read more of them, you can search for them there.

Feel free to add to the discussion, I only ask that the topic of stay relevant to the quotes. (this is a note to all persons participating)

Welcome

Joel
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 08:29 PM

Sorry, my Zen vocabulary is a little ...well, void.

What is "Mushin"? You said that word in your last post, Joel, and it confused the heck outta me.

Thanks, [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

-Ket
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 09:26 PM

Mushin is translated as "no mind"

I will quote a few others on the subject to try and help some:

"mushin is operating when the actor is separate from the act and no thoughts interfere with action because the unconscious act is the most free and uninhibited. When mushin functions, the mind moves from one activity to another, flowing like a stream of water and filling every space."
-Bruce Lee in "Zen in the Martial Arts" by Joe Hyams

"Mushin...nothing."
-Taisen Deshimaru, "The Zen Way to Martial Arts"

"Mushin-Mind Without Thinking"
That's the chapter title, the chapter is way too long to type. Just get the book. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Hope that helped.

Joel
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/09/05 11:08 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoelM:
After discussion between oldman and myself, I have decided that the Daily Zen thread will now be a permanent resident of the Meditation/Zen Forum, it's rightful place.

Day 1:

The Buddha was wandering through India shortly after his enlightenment. Several men encountered him, and sensed something quite extraordinary about the handsome monk. "Are you a god?" they asked.
"No," he answered.
"Well, are you a deva or an angel?"
"No."
"Some kind of wizard or magician?"
"No," he said again.
Finally, perplexed, the men asked, "Well, what are you?"
"I am awake," he answered.

Buddhist Mondo
[/QUOTE]

Beautiful. Bowing in Reverence and Gassho
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/10/05 12:09 AM

Day 3:

Better not to begin.
Once you begin, better to finish it.

- Buddhist saying
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/10/05 02:52 AM

Don't begin something you have no plans to finish. If you are going to start a new project, what is the point of quitting halfway through. You might as well not have done anything at all.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/10/05 09:07 AM

by 'beginning' something you have already made the decision there will be a finish.

simply DO.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/10/05 01:45 PM

To begin is to engage, which creates "karmic traces", if you do that it's better to do it right so the traces created are positive, albeit the best would be not to create any.

It's "Tao Te Ching" in eleven words.

?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/10/05 11:47 PM

Day 4: continuing on mushin

For minds obsessed by compulsive thinking and grasping, you simplify your meditation practices to just two words-"let go."

-Ajahn Sumedho

[This message has been edited by JoelM (edited 04-10-2005).]
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 01:35 AM

YES!!!
You really have to grasp the idea of letting go ;o)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 03:29 AM

Desires, preconcieved notions, these things hold us back on the path to enlightenment. By letting go, we find the moungtain easier to climb. Why should we carry a block of iron when we climb the mountain when it serves no practical purpose. And in this case, the object is to get to the top, which is hard enough to do as is, not build strength by carrying extra weight around.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 05:35 AM

Cant relate this specificaly to meditation as i do not practice it (have no time- just got Doom 3 on the xbox [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])

However in relation to MA I completely agree, it is easy to find difficulty in simplicity, better to relax and just do a technique, than 'gear up' to it,that seldom works.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 07:44 AM

what if you are obsessed with meditation and "letting go"?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 08:19 AM

I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, so I will see.
I fear nothing, so I will remember myself.

Detached and at ease, I will dart past the Eagle to be free.

-Carlos Casteneda An Eagle's gift
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 08:28 AM

It seems the only problem with wanting enlightenment would be in the wanting enlightenment part.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 09:18 AM

Yossarian, is that you?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 03:27 PM

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000134.html
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/11/05 11:59 PM

Day 5:

Consciousness is in the first place not a matter of "I think" but of "I can."

- Maurice Merleau-Ponty
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 03:42 AM

I would say that "I can" is the most powerful sentence you can say. I have often found that "I can" really means that I am able to perform some otherwise impossible seeming task.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 05:23 AM

I think Descartes would have to disagree with this statement.

The 'i can' thing is a great idea and important to focus positive energy into a task, but it is far from being a one way ticket to successville.

Famous failed 'I can's'

'i can win this war' Hitler.
'We can design an unsinkable boat' Titanic
Engineers.
'I can wear baby pink and make it flattering'
Britney Spears.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 06:15 AM

I think, therefore I can't ? lol
doesn't really have a strong ring of logic to it.

There are many things which 'can' but are not conscious. My toaster can heat bread, but I've never considered it a sentient being.

perhaps the quote could be deciphered as:
"I CAN think, therefore I am conscious."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 06:33 AM

I think I can, I think I can... (The Little Train that Could)

Ignoring Descartes (who, I think was 180 degrees wrong), and the value we place on thinking (makes us human, superior, etc.) vs. intuitive....how about an altruistic understanding of 'can'.

'Can I help you?'
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 06:43 AM

I'd like to say that the last one (day 5) has nothing to do with Zen, but the reality probably is that I'm just too thick to get it!
Posted by: still wadowoman

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 07:59 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kara-atama:
I think, therefore I can't ? lol
doesn't really have a strong ring of logic to it.

There are many things which 'can' but are not conscious. My toaster can heat bread, but I've never considered it a sentient being.

perhaps the quote could be deciphered as:
"I CAN think, therefore I am conscious."
[/QUOTE]

Ah, but the toaster only "can" if a person inserts bread and flicks the swithch. The toaster can not heat bread at will, whereas we "can" make toast whenever we like.
Sharon
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 08:11 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by harlan:
"I think I can, I think I can..." (The Little Train that Could)

Ignoring Descartes (who, I think was 180 degrees wrong), and the value we place on thinking (makes us human, superior, etc.) vs. intuitive....how about an altruistic understanding of 'can'.

'Can I help you?'
[/QUOTE]

lol
I agree Descartes would have done better to stick with math.

logic vs. intuition. seems like a valid argument but I couldn't prove it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

non-altruistic versions of 'can':

Clerk to customer at 'GAP' store:
'Can I help you?'

Woman to a gawking man:
'Can I help you?'

Loan officer to unemployed person at bank:
'Can I help you?'

back on topic...
This last quote (day 5) doesn't speak Zen to me. but thats just my intuition.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 08:42 AM

can

[This message has been edited by harlan (edited 04-12-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 08:51 AM

[IMG]http://img89.echo.cx/img89/2497/can5bc.jpg[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 04-12-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 09:21 AM

inappropriate but funny.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 09:26 AM

Oldman, I'm laughing so hard I think I'm going to cry. Wonderful man cans, I just hope I never get any like that.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/m/merleaup1.asp
Merleau-Ponty seems to be of a different philosophical view than many people, which is why this topic seems to be a bit differing for many people, but I am enjoying the debate.

For myself, I will have to ponder this quote more to be able to make anything of it.

To be able to "think" do you need to know you "can" think?

Joel
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 09:36 AM

hehe...Joel, I think oldman has had enough of the debate over the word 'can'.

Kind of like the knights who say 'Nee'. One word can become painful to hear after a while.

(still laughing)
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 01:28 PM

back on topic...
This last quote (day 5) doesn't speak Zen to me. but thats just my intuition

HA!! You're too thick to )
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/12/05 03:36 PM

store assistant 'can i help you'

correct grammar would be 'may I help you'

Of course the store worker has the ability/potential to help, using 'may' as an opening question invites your agreement and inferres an intention to help.

'Can i sit here?' if your knees and hips work of course it is possible.

'may i sit here' not only accurate but more polite as well.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 12:32 AM

Day 6:

In spiritual practice there are only two things: you sit and you sweep the garden. And it doesn't matter how big the garden is.

- Zen Saying
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 03:44 AM

My interpretation is that the 'garden' is the mind, and the sweeping is clearing away the leaves of confusion and misconception, maybe even conscious thought itself?
Sitting to do it indicates to me that the sweeping should be done in a relaxed and unhurried manner, defining the act with a timescale gives you something to think about, thus adding detritus to the lawn.
As for the size of the garden, if one deals with a bit at a time, you are in no hurry, and the act of sweeping is enough of itself, then it wouldnt matter the size of the task ahead.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 04:40 AM

This speaks to me of "empty your cup". One of the reasons that many of the feudal era schools of both China and Japan gave new students menial work was to make sure they were sufficiently humble to learn the MA. We would be alot better off as a society in certain ways if such a practice was still followed.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 05:12 AM

Whatever you do (e.g sweeping garden) be totally present and only do that one thing, don't worry about what you have to do next (i.e size of garden) or anything else for that matter?

Now we're talking Zen
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 03:48 PM

[IMG]http://img113.echo.cx/img113/2429/zen4uq.jpg[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 09:36 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nenipp:
Whatever you do (e.g sweeping garden) be totally present ....
Hello to all I am new to this site . Thank you for being here. I think the toaster has it correct...it abides in all its toasterness without even knowing what that is ...no ego...just toast. May we all be so enlightened.

<gassho>



[This message has been edited by wolfscalissi (edited 04-13-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 10:04 PM

oldman, you have the current issue of Maxim pegged, is that what's on your desk?

Joel

PS-It's on my floor, along with "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" and "Men's Health"
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/13/05 11:38 PM

Day 7:

True enlightenment and wholeness arise when we are without anxiety about nonperfection.

- The Third Patriarch
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/14/05 02:43 AM

I like this one Joel.Very cool.

i think that you could take this idea a little further, and say it is to acknowledge the perfection in imperfection.
Would mountains look as awesome if unweathered and featureless?
Everything in nature is assymetrical, rough around the edges and not without fault.It stands to reason that we, being part of nature, should be prone to these tendencies as well, both spiritualy and physicaly.

Acknowledging and working with your flaws and weaknesses, not dwelling on them as an unfair hand dealt by fate, leads to great strength,it requires you not to be self conscious, but rather conscious of self.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/14/05 03:57 AM

enlightenment isn't really about seeking perfection, it's about seeing the world for how it really is. It is the flaws in the world around us that give us hope and joy in life, for without the bad, good has no meaning.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/14/05 08:23 AM

It is about letting go. When you let go of all the attachments/delusions you will experience enlightenment. The idea being enlightenment is already there (can't lose it), but you need to clean the window to see it.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/14/05 03:58 PM

I think the toaster has it correct...it abides in all its toasterness without even knowing what that is ...no ego...just toast

No Ego, but no Compassion either, only combustion (or is that just my toaster?)
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/14/05 04:12 PM

About day 7

That's perfect!

ps: my StBernard is snoring and twitching, he looks kinda stupid, to be honest (not sure if you wanted to know that, but my two cent's were so small today so I thought I might throw in a little extra)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/15/05 12:16 AM

Day 8:

Death is our eternal companion. It is always to our left, at an arm's length. It has always been watching you. It always will until the day it taps you.

The thing to do when you're impatient is...to turn to your left and ask advice from your death. An immense amount of pettiness is dropped if your death makes a gesture to you, or if you catch a glimpse of it, or if you just catch the feeling that your companion is there watching you.

- Carlos Castaneda
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/15/05 03:17 AM

'Soon Cord, soon'

'Come anytime, welcome guest'

(Q)The Silent Flute.

Live everyday with death in mind, and you will always mean what you say, never take your loved ones for granted, and squeeze every drop of experience out of the day.

One aspect of Bushido that we could all apply in todays world, and would feel the benefits of.

When I was 13, my pet dog was nearly 14. I knew that this was 'getting on a bit' for a dog, and made a point of saying a proper goodnight to him and giving him a treat every night, conscious that he may not be there in the morning.Of course that day sadly came, but i knew that i had said a proper goodbye and that helped.

I never really thought of my own life in such finite terms until fairly recently, but then, immortality is the property of the young. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/15/05 06:17 AM

Like Carl Sagan said when interviewed during remission:

I recommend almost dying to everybody. It's character building. You get a much clearer perspective of what's important and what isn't, the preciousness and beauty of life.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/15/05 12:02 PM

Death is a part of life. It is the border between this world and the next. All the small things we worry about mean nothing in the hereafter, so it's better not to worry about pettiness and get on with the important stuff in life, our families and friends.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/15/05 02:26 PM

'All the small things we worry about mean nothing in the hereafter'

You hope [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] Guess someone would have to pop back and confirm it for me to take this as absolute truth. Comforting idea though.

[This message has been edited by Cord (edited 04-15-2005).]
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Daily Zen: Week 6 - 04/15/05 04:24 PM

Day 8

You stroke a nostalgic cord there, JoelM, if you were here I'd give you a hug, thank's friend!

Those words meant a great deal to me in the old days at the beginning of my spiritual journey, after I'd failed to bend my mind enough out of shape to accept the "standard" religion of my homeland.

I've struggled quite a bit with death and we're old buddies now, I've tried to bend my mind this way and that, but didn't find other systems (much) easier to "buy" than the first one...
...somewhere along the line, it occurred to me, might as well just let go and I guess that's what I'm doing.

Don't know how much of this letting go I'll have done by the time my old buddy and I finally decide to call it a day, meaning I don't claim to be enlightened or anything only that I've stopped struggling and am here to tell you it's so incredibly peaceful!

Btw, how come there are eight days to week 6?