Meditation and demons, etc ?

I have read a great deal about meditation, the brain, and just about anythimg related. I even tried meditation a bit when I was younger but, though I could relax well enough, I never had the supposedly awesome experiences it can produce. But its those experiences I wondered about. I have read that many encounter "spirits" or other paranormal activity when practicing zen meditation. It supposedly can lead to out of body experiences, "visitor" experiences etc. As kewl as that sounds, I have no desire to "wake up" to see some dark figure staring at my still sleeping body or things to start moving about in my house. I wondered if anyone else has experienced this stuff? Having never had an OOB experience etc, I have no way to judge other than to say I have read about such events and wondered what you all thought or have experienced? Like I said I an well read in all the ideas and concepts of the brain (especially theta wave production which mimics meditation) and meditation etc. I just am curious to hear from people that actually practice this if they have had negative, or positive experiences. Also what do people think the "negative" or even positive things are. (for example: spirits, another plane, just really vivd dreaming...etc etc.
Thanx
Beardy Man

Meditation is merely a tool for relaxing the mind and removing the buildup of stresses that we place upon ourselves.

Done daily it will help to relax you and overcome self doubts and all those other little nagging voices/thoughts that undermine your confidence.

I've done a lot of meditation over the years and have never experienced an out of body experience.

Just relax and enjoy the benefits. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Meditation is the selfwritten source to a better life... Can not explain, but as i started mediating i started to get a different view of other things, that have helped me a lot... But surely! Dont seek trust in Christianity, it's a complete manmade catastrofe that makes you bow for him...
Do not bow for anyone, Maybe i am a little of track, but it's surely the truth im telling... It's your mind that are F***** Up,Meditate and fix, It is our nature....

Always make sure your sword is next to you when in Zen meditation, that way you can cut that demon in two!

schanne

lol. sword, machine gun, staff...heck I am goona bringa n army with me lol [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TroyVonCox:
Meditation is the selfwritten source to a better life... Can not explain, but as i started mediating i started to get a different view of other things, that have helped me a lot... But surely! Dont seek trust in Christianity, it's a complete manmade catastrofe that makes you bow for him...
Do not bow for anyone, Maybe i am a little of track, but it's surely the truth im telling... It's your mind that are F***** Up,Meditate and fix, It is our nature....[/QUOTE]

Do not critisize that which you do not understand. Whay do you believe is so catastrophic? All I know is that it's changed my life for the better.

TroyVonCox
I would comment on the obvious ignorance and bias with which you responded except I am not seeking to make this a religious topic. You obviously have past issues regarding Xianity and that is your business. However, condeming something you dont really know, and just being condeming anyway, is hardly going to allow you to find the spiritual wisdom that meditation seeks to provide. Please desist in turning this into a religious thread. It is a discussion on the phenomena experienced in meditation and the like practices. Please keep your comments confined to that issue. Thanx.
Beardy Man

[This message has been edited by Beardy Man (edited 11-08-2004).]

I have to agree that meditation provides good guidance along lifes path, particularly once you have practiced for a long while with it and found your personal sway of things..

I personally dislike christianity, more the extreme side of christianity (including a large proportion of its past), but every religion has its fanatical side... you should not judge everyone by that same stick. And pardon my language... but havent the best wildflowers always been grown out of the foulest manuer? (spelling?)

Perhaps he/she was relating more to a personal struggle, and granted, one of the shapes that christianity has taken is a dominating control-through-fear imp.... so.. I guess we could cut Troy a little slack.

One of the best ways to appreciate meditation, is through repetition. I dont mean treat it as a chore and burden.... but try to make it work for you, make your own way into it... find out what relaxes you mentally.. and go with that.
Like all things spiritual, meditation too will evolve directly alongside your own growth.

I have no one easy way of saying it.. but if you bathe in the gentle silence of your own quietened mind... many other things find it easier to get in. OBE's being one of them.
The sciences of the spiritual are very messy to say the least, as we are only used to measuring things in cups, inches and tonnes...
...for anything of a more... extranormal origin to be able to touch upon our senses, we have to be sensitive to it. Spirit guides, or any of their similar counterparts, forms or avatars, will find it greatly easier to contact you when the natural 'static hase' of your mind is at a minimum.

Imagine trying to tune into a radio station, that is surrounded by huge, constantly overdriven machinary. At best, your signal would be garbled and confusing. Most trying to listen to that station would question whether they have the right frequency.

Patience is a huge factor here, too. If you maintain a fair level of skepticism, be brutally honest with yourself, but desire to expand enough.. it will come in time.

My first and only OBE came when I actually stopped trying to get one, after 6 months of passive attempts (before I slept)... and I finally got one, when I got a day off from college, rolled over to get some more sleep instead of wake up.. and found I had rolled through the sheets and was laying a short distance from the floor.
Heh, after a short OBE, I found it felt 'too natural' to be what I was looking for, and decided to continue searching for that invisible thing that beckons me, deep inside.

I still havent found this weird thing that keeps calling to me, like someone is pulling on an invisible string attached to my heart and soul... but the journey has been fun to say the least. (and hard :|)

I tend to babble terribly.. uhm.. if the guys here cant help, throw me an email sometime when my mind is clearer. (its 4:06am right now, lol)

Agh, i just skip-read your post again..

Dark figures are common to most people who visit 'other' places. Thats not a bad thing, really. Physical senses are terribly dull, if not non-existant, when travelling away from your body. Replacement senses often set in, some mimic the 5 physical senses, others are very different (like the 6th sense, instinct/precognition)...

Also, try to think of it as being reborn. Here in the physical, we have the comfort of wearing this irremovable suit of armor, the physical body. Even when we are terribly hurt, or being attacked, or when we are scared... the body is always with us, a constant factor, a 'comfort blankie' if you will.
Being in a place without your body leaves you terribly naked and vulnerable feeling.

Combine this sense of insecurity, with a lack of sharp senses.
A lot of astral entities are 'felt' as dark silhouettes, humanoid.

People mistake the darkness (the shadow of 'presance'), for evil, or hostility. Many people take these watchful figures as demons, or evil energy-draining entities.

We are very much like children, when away from our anchor-bodies. Again we are like simple creatures of the world, anything we are uncertain of or unused to, we fear.
That is why so many fear death.
Death is also not to be feared, even if dying often stings.

Death is so scary because it is so unknown to us. Not only are we forcefully disincarnated and seperated from our 'comfort blankie' of a body... we find that our constantly analysing 'monkey chatter' mind is gently ebbed away before us.....
..this is why people without religion often see death as just blackness. A void, similar to that which we experience just before and after sleep and dreams.

I know it sounds like I am shooting off onto another subject.. but when dealing with entirely new ways of exploring our space in reality.. you do need a little arsenal of semi-reassuring nuggets of information.

My only solid piece of advice to give you is : "Take everything with a pinch of salt, even what you believe". The entire 'trust nobody' motif goes well here, especially upon yourself.
With nothing to measure up these weird new experiences with, it is hard to feel unthreatened and alone. Many just pretend they never happen, because science cannot validate the experience, or other people scoff at you.
Just remember that science cannot conclusively prove the existance of the common dream, and it still cannot measure things like pain in units.

Science is still a religion. Many say it is not, but it is. It does not worship a deity, but it obides by a code. Religion may be an inaccurate word, but it is an 'order' at best.
Consistancy and coherancy only gets you so far, as science once agreed that the world was flat, that the bike would just fall over.. and related to martial arts.. that it is impossible for a pin to be thrown through a sheet of glass, or for a human to jump high enough to pass over another standing human.

Science may be a good milestone for us to refer to, when we feel lost with all the weird things in life shooting all around us... but in the end, it is only a milestone, it is not the very voice of truth.
Probably for the better, seeing how we humans use what we have learned thusfar :P

Again, sorry for the ranting babbleishness, but I like to help as much as I can. You'll need to explore what i've said before you can entirely trust it, too.
Try looking around online, there is a lot of support for it... and you'll also find that many people disagree on the fine print of how it all works.

You walk alone, in your life, only your feet can carry you... make a choice, and follow your path as it reveals itself to you.

....and as a hint, if some firey horn-headed dude asks if he can borrow your soul, politely decline, then bail back into your cosy meatbag of a home [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] lol

Beardy!!You got to help me, I've been banned from christian chat for nothing, you got to get me unbanned.Please!!!!

QuiSnake,

I agree with ur observations on science (it is a religion of sorts I have long felt) and personally like ur meatbag suggestion. lol [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
And I agree that we should definitely tread and trust carefully in a world we are new to. I guess more specifically I am curious if, after encountering these "figures" etc as it seems all people have, if you have experienced any negative side affects. For example, paranormal stuff happening in the REAL (well the waking anyway) world. Felt spirits babbling at you in your mind while awake? "Things" coming to you as you sleep? Ya know, basically stuff that you cant get away from if you desire to by not meditating. I am fully aware that there is "more" to this world than what we see. I find it oddd that we only use roughly 10% of our brains and we are said to only "see" (with our eyes) 10% of reality. Seems an awfully peculiar coincidence huh? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] That said I know if we expand what we can see...we will see MORE...good and bad. I just want to know I can set it aside at times without the bad buggin me lol. Anyway, talk to ya later. Beardy.

Beardy, please help me get unbanned, or at least tell me how to get unbanned. Please!!!!!(By the way, it's me Macleod)

[This message has been edited by Stormdragon (edited 11-21-2004).]

Storm,
I dunno...can u log in under a new name? I use a few different ons just for fun. If that doesnt work..are u on a dial up or cable modem? If cable can u reset ur IP addy?i believe that is how they track u in there. See if any of that works. As i dont know any of these "new" monitors I am not sure what to tell you. Another alternative might be to go to th library and log in...then find a monitor and plead ur case to them. see if they reinstate u. Thats about all I can think of....oh you could always astral project ur way into the net....Homer simpson did that didnt he? If je can u can lol [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]
Beardy Man

[QUOTE]
Felt spirits babbling at you in your mind while awake? "Things" coming to you as you sleep? Ya know, basically stuff that you cant get away from if you desire to by not meditating. I am fully aware that there is "more" to this world than what we see. I find it oddd that we only use roughly 10% of our brains and we are said to only "see" (with our eyes) 10% of reality. Seems an awfully peculiar coincidence huh? That said I know if we expand what we can see...we will see MORE...good and bad. I just want to know I can set it aside at times without the bad buggin me lol. Anyway, talk to ya later. Beardy.
[/QUOTE]
I actually thought of spirits babbling things to us as a great advantage [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

The problem with starting along the 'path less walked', is that once you get a little distance down the path, and you've had a few personal experiences... you cant really turn back. You cant get rid of your experiences and what you've felt/learned/seen, even if you misinterpretted it.
Well, at least anything short of a memory-crushing concussion wouldnt be able to make you turn back.

Once you 'break yourself in' to meditation, you find yourself gradually becoming more sensitive.. you should never rely on anything too much, but meditation (or the 'just chilling' side of it) is a great tool for relieving stress and helping to keep a calm mind.

In all things, there are the occasional nasty-things. Just like many people have good intentions, you may eventually meet a mugger who has set its eyes on you as a target.

The only thing that you need to worry about, really.. is fear. The most common bad-effect found in the spiritual arts, is fear.
People often report seeing 'evil spirits' stood next to their bed quietly when they wake up from odd DEEP meditations or dreams..
..but they arent really evil..
..the fear of the unknown drives them to believe that it is evil, because they are 'naked' and 'defenceless' against it.

They say they get a 'nasty' vibe off it. That is often just because they think it may attack, and they can do nothing about it.

Sorry for keeping this so vague but im rushing through some posts [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Hey QiSnake,
Thanks for your honesty. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I agree we misunderstand much in this world. But that said some of the people I have read about DID say that the things were in deed evil based on actions not just feelings. Isnt it possible that if you encounter good you could encounter evil as well? Many seem to have encountered genuine "evil" things. That said I am just curious as to what you do when you DO encounter evil stuff. (and i want to avoid a huge discusson here on what "evil" is lol [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] ) I mean since it seems inevitable I am curious how YOU have battled it. I guess what I mean is..can you control this evil, tell it to scram and it does? Or does it more torment ya...or maybe you have never encounterd the evil side? I am not really sure as to your experiences myself. I also agree that once you enter into more wisdom..there is no turning back of sorts. I just want to be prepared. Only a fool begins a journey without the proper supplies. (even though those supplies could be many different things to different people) Thanx again.
Beardy

As far as meditation goes, all you need is the ability to think.

You are the resident of your existence, and you cannot be dislodged. If something harmful/evil approaches you and you wish to be rid of it? Will it into reality.
You are within the boundaries of your self, your mind, your heart... it is completely under your control.

The worst thing that could happen, which hasnt happened to me.. would be that some nasty thingy could try to give you the illusion you are being posessed, in my experiences and many many others.. this is not possible.
I havent encountered real evil, I dont think... everything I found, was just scary-seeming things, that were tricks of the mind.

All that I encountered that wasnt a trick of my mind, was often neutral.. it makes me wonder if the things I saw, were a part of myself.. *shrugs*
Sorry for being so brief but its 8:55am and I havent slept all last night [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Qisnakes got a point about willing it away, you know God or the creator or whatever you believe in(not to offend anyone) gave us powerful minds and sperits enough so that I dont believe there are many things out there that are speritual that can resist your will for very long although personally I think if you run into something seriously evil i think you may have to do more than will it away, like go to God.(By the way, thinks Beardy for the christianchat advice I contacted the main people and if that dont work I guess I'll try to change the IP addrese or something, I'm on dial up so how would that work?)

Storm, I believe that ur dial up IP chsnges everytime u dial up. SO with a new name u may be able to log in right now!! Give it a shot. If that doesnt work then u can do it a more complicated way. Look online I believe u can change it urself. (force ur modem to choose a new one--but i dont remember how)

QiSnake....i agree with ur will (especially from the Christian perspective) I guess i just wondered if there was any special "prep work"---ya know purifying your will and focus of thought before ya even attempt meditation. (The same way u wouldnt seek a battle without proper training) What ya think? yes/no? As a christian i would say know god first etc...but as I have never really poked around in the spiritual realms i am not aware of what "prep work" and supplies i might need ya know [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG] I gotta believe that some purification or ability to keep a focused will is important before going in isnt it?
Beardy

There are no such things as demons. The evil is in mans heart, the evil exist throughout our lives, but it is man made. God does not create or possess anything evil, there is no devil which creates evil acts to occur! Man is responsible for all evil in this world.

Man is the evil force behind all the countless acts against humanity that has gone on since the dawn of civilization. And it is man alone who must accept the blame and responsibility to assure that these things do not continue in the future. Devils , demons....that's what children believe.

If you wish to know what Buddhist meditation is about, it is well to know what Buddhism itself is about. To know that, it is very helpful indeed to first know what it is not. Here is a link.
http://vajra.us/gus_oil_and_water.html

It tells of how utterly and completely different Buddharma is from Abrahamic monotheism. They are not so much opposed as totally out of phase from each other, orange and apples fashion.

Truth be told, he only deamons are your own inner ones. The subconscious may present them to you in various guises. The imagination takes it from there. All evil in the world is man made, pure and simple. Folks do evil things and to justify it shift blame to some god. That same evil done by others they credit to deamons.

Read, for instance, the Old Testiment book of Nahum. You probably never heard of Nahum as preachers never sermon upon it. It horrifies.

Respectfully,

Gan Uesli Starling
Kalamazoo MI USA

From meditation ive experienced many lucid dreams and it has broadened the way that I think and react to conflict, I have also had quite a few 'insights' where i have seen shapes, changes of colour and experienced intense feelings( happines, serialness etc) but all of these things can be explained scientifically. I would by no means refer to them as paronormal.
Id like to mention though beardy in your 6th post you respond to qisnake about experiencing 'evil' in meditation my belief and my belief on this in my mind is a certanty that there is no evil in the world at all only ignorance, we are all born with a pure and good nature and as soon as we reach infancy imo we start to make mistakes and form deep rooted ignorance which we and others can interperate to be evil. I think that if everybody realises that there is a kind and wonderful nature underneath the ignorant and sometimes ugly exterior of peoples personalities that we would achieve a paradise in our own world and that people would no longer imo want to fantasise of a paradise in an after life ect(This is not an attack on religeons I myself may well be ignorant with respect to religeons, Its just not a topic we can be certain of) Id like to apologise in advance for the lack of punctuation as i noticed this thread at 8:04am after having no sleep and wanted to share my opinion.

[This message has been edited by karate-do (edited 12-31-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schanne:
There are no such things as demons. The evil is in mans heart, the evil exist throughout our lives, but it is man made. God does not create or possess anything evil, there is no devil which creates evil acts to occur! Man is responsible for all evil in this world.

Man is the evil force behind all the countless acts against humanity that has gone on since the dawn of civilization. And it is man alone who must accept the blame and responsibility to assure that these things do not continue in the future. Devils , demons....that's what children believe.[/QUOTE]

While I dont agree that demons and devils dont exist I believe thatit is mans own love or want of arbitrary unimportant things that causes evil. For ex love of money(greed), love of yourself(to an extreme in the form of ego) or mans want of more material things in general. These are the primary causes of true evil.
Just my take on things.

the "evil" and scary s**t you meet in meditation is made by your "ego" in order to scare you into not letting it go