Knowing that you know nothing

Posted by: jkdwarrior

Knowing that you know nothing - 11/12/08 11:13 PM

If you can accept that the only true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing, then surely it would be truely foolish to believe that we get wiser as we get older. Yet the vast majority of older people feel they are wiser than those who are younger.
Furthermore if you accept that Socrates was right, knowing that you know nothing could mean open mindedness. Yet the older generations seem to be more "set in their ways", or closed to new experiences, and therefore more foolish. In my experience, most older people are fools (as are most of the others), but some are light years beyond myself in terms of wisdom. Most very young children on the other hand are open to almost anything and therefore wiser than us all. I can see quite clearly that my children are wiser than me, they can instantly forgive me for shouting or punishing whereas I would need a few minutes to forgive somebody for the same. Is this because I've "learned" more which has made me more foolish? Or is wisdom something you either have or you don't?
If knowledge increases with age, we may learn how to go about our daily lives more effectively, but this may be what makes us fools.
I don't want to offend any of the older members, but then again if this does offend then that is really my point, a truly wise person would not get offended. If we believe we are wise
then we cannot see that we are full of crap

Am I simply too young to see?
Controversial eh?
What do you think?
Posted by: DeadlyKnuckles

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 11/13/08 10:22 AM

It's not a matter of age, it's a matter of experience.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 11/21/08 10:36 PM

I think what Socrates was pointing out, was that it's not so much the quantity of knowledge that is accumulated which determines wisdom - but more the increased awareness of what is NOT known.

you can be totally unaware of things that you don't know.
-or-
you can be aware of things that you don't know.


The goal is to increase the scope of awareness of things that you don't know.

It's sortof like the process of Scientific thought: asking and pursuing the answer to one question, opens up a dozen new questions that you were previously unaware of to ask.


...as oppossed to being satisfied with not knowing the answer to the first question asked, nor pursuing the answer.

In that light, I think wisdom/knowledge isn't a noun, it's a verb. it's the pursuit itself that defines it, not it's end goal of obtaining it.


...but I don't know for sure, and my opinion is subject to change.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 11/23/08 09:41 PM

So with this perspective, children would again be wiser than adults since they seem to understand that there is no chance that they could know even a small percentage of what there is to know. Then again it could also mean that you either have wisdom or you don't and that you can have it regardless of age.
Do you think that as we get older we tend to believe we a know a greater proportion of all that is or that we tend to understand that all the information we've gathered is infinitesimal when compared to what there is to learn? In my experience, the vast majority are part of the former school of thought, but the minute latter group are extremely wise.

I took Socrates' expression as meaning that knowledge leads to thoughts, which cloud perceptions. For example, if you learn to read body language, then you'll be analyzing the movements of others and therefore using a smaller part of your brain to pick up what they have to say, hence your judgement of everything will be poorer since it will be based on previous experience and not on what is happening right now. The only true wisdom in this case is in having a clear mind, or that knowing that one's opinion is extremely prone to bias. What do you think?
You said that its the pursuit of wisdom itself that defines it, in this case then it is possible to gather knowledge and still be wise. I would like to have a definitive answer as to what was implied, but then again this may close my mind in a sense. If any of you see Socrates about, be sure to ask him for me.
The thing is, I've been a knowledge gatherer for most of my life, but several years ago, I began stripping away my knowledge so that I can behave spontaneously believing that wisdom is a paradox. i.e. to be "wise" one must understand that there is no such thing as wisdom and that we are all fools, but your view has helped me to try and reconsider. Maybe I can gather knowledge as long as I understand not that it's all rubbish as I do at the minute, but that as long as I remain open to everything else, then it is OK to do so.

This is probably just one of those riddles that there is a whole bunch of possible answers for, but we all take what applies most to us from it. Philosophy can be fun, but it never seems to get us anywhere.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 11/29/08 12:04 PM

jkd, your argument is weak because clearly children are dumb as a bag of hammers.
What they do have however, is a thirst for experience and an open mind.
Ironicaly, it is this drive for knowledge that leads to a self defined subconcious satiation, and from there the mind can easily become less open to new experiences/ideas, as everything new gets filtered through what has gone before.

Kids are not smarter than adults, but adults are mentaly more lazy and complacent.
Posted by: underdog

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/03/08 09:09 AM

I find the arguement thin, as are most generalizations of this type. Further, the "arguement from intimidation" kind of stiffles dialogue. The arguement says: if I agree with you, fine. If I disagree (or take offense) then that is proof that I am so inferior that you couldn't possibly explain things to me. So that leaves me with the choice of accepting that I am closed minded and inferior, or being too dumb to understand why I must be closed minded and inferior. Some choice!

Personally, I am an optimist and I believe that whatever powers out there that watch and govern the human state, like us. The superlatives: goodness, wisdom, bravery, beauty are all attainable. Our situation is not hopeless or helpless. There is a lot that can be learned while looking at those shadows in the cave. We don't need an Olympian perspective to be complete, self fullfillled human beings. It just means that no matter how long we live or how long we search, this wonderful life will always have something new to offer. What a treat!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/04/08 02:15 AM

philosophy is just an exercise that may or may not materialize into something tangibly useful. like alot of other things, the exercise isn't to find a right or wrong, but just a personal balance. maybe similar to libido: Too little philosophical thinking and you might feel 'empty' in some regard...yet too much and it could turn into a habit of "mental masterbation".

Plus everyone goes thru phases in their life - ever have the phase where you are really interested in personal psychology? so you delve into finding out what this and that suppossedly means and find out how messed up you are? lol. You go into it thinking you are going to learn more about yourself, like a first car, checking under the hood and fiddling with stuff to see how it works - but thinking about self-psychology too much causes the opposite effect: you start getting overly self conscious, self doubting, and maybe even depressed or withdrawn. luckily it didn't last long, but I went thru a spell of that early in adulthood... not to mention the disaster my ambitious curiosity caused to my first car.


Same thing with philosophy - balance.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/05/08 11:52 PM

Sorry underdog, I didn't mean to limit your responses as such. The optimist's perspective is certainly a great one, and the only one that can make us happy.

Ed I agree, what you say sounds true to me, but I feel you misunderstand me. Self psychology is the opposite of my argument. What I mean is "don't think", just act. More or less all of our thinking is severely handicapped and limited since it all comes from our previous experiences. What I mean is that it is possible to live out our existence without being the driver of it (not an argument for laziness), we can just enjoy the ride and therefore take nothing seriously.
I feel that our state of peace and happiness is the quality of our lives (and our deepest desire) and that everything else is of secondary importance. If you're an optimist, then you are happy and have therefore got the right idea and your actions will most likely be in accordance with your desires.
Many philosophers and medidators however think too much, and drive themselves into madness, as you said Ed. I feel that this is the greatest danger of meditation, but one that happens far too often when people don't know what they're doing. Those that do however, and have being doing it for a long time, repeatedly show higher levels of happiness and satisfaction than lay people (on average), I feel that this is because we can learn to act and not think, therefore we take nothing seriously and are free to be optimistic, in agreement with the above couple of posts.

Cord your response is self contradictory.
Posted by: underdog

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/06/08 09:24 AM

I have no problem with mind of no mind acting without the thnking. I train for hours to get there.

I have no problem with thinking, since I teach and train people all the time on my job, I appreciate someone who can think and stay awake at the same time.

I have no problem with accepting my place in the universe as an imperfect human being. I am not defective because I can not compete with gods, and angels, and titans. Of course I do not know what the Olympians know, nor do I need to.

Flesh this out with something practical. I am an older female. For me to train, and in my case, that is exclusively with men, that would be the equivalent of you trying to train with titans, the half men, half gods of the Greeks. If I did not accept myself, and tried to compare myself, benchmark myself against men 20-40 years younger than me, I'd be sick. I can no longer match their balance, grace, flexability, and strength. However, I don't beat up on myself. I accept myself and accept what I know, don't know and what is no longer in my reach. I've made a delicate art of being "the underdog" i.e. I've tried to make it honorable. I actually train with and teach men who can do things I no longer can do. I accept myself, and surprisingly, they also accept me. Last Friday, a young Shodan asked for help from me to get the key lock with his legs. I showed him two ways to get it. I showed him how I get it, and another way that I can no longer use because I don't have the flexability in my knees anymore to do it.

We both felt good about the experience. If I dwelled on being inferior and not knowing things, I would have to be depressed all the time and give up karate because I will never be good. Instead, I have the wisdom of self acceptance. I am worthy of positive regard for myself, by others and by my creator, just because I am.

I hope this isn't confusing. I just wanted to explain the rationale for a positive outlook and show how self doubt is not a requisite for open mindedness or wisdom.

I'm actually a religious person, having studied for the ministry and I'm trying to avoid religious references here because they are never universal and too often provocative. However, having studied with folks of interesting diversity, I suspect that if you talk to the religious people of your choosing, you may find a brighter perspective explained in a way that is more congruent with your own way of thinking.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/07/08 12:22 PM

Quote:

Self psychology is the opposite of my argument. What I mean is "don't think", just act. More or less all of our thinking is severely handicapped and limited since it all comes from our previous experiences. What I mean is that it is possible to live out our existence without being the driver of it (not an argument for laziness), we can just enjoy the ride and therefore take nothing seriously........



You put a lot of thought into that didnt you

Quote:

Cord your response is self contradictory.



No it isnt, but feel free to expound on why you see it as such
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/10/08 08:07 PM

No, it just came to me spontaneously.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/13/08 03:01 PM

Quote:

No, it just came to me spontaneously.



But it required intellectual processing of the ideas conveyed in the posts you responded to in order for your post to be a cohesive.

You cannot act without thought- all animals process information around them and interact accordingly. When the reaction is very quick ie. blinking in a sand storm, we call it 'instinctive' or 'reflexive' and that is fair enough, but its still a reaction to external information interperated by the brain.

Try reading Pirsig's Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance- it addresses human interperatation of the world according to 'quality' of all experiences. Its interesting, and may offer a fresh angle on what you are trying to convey.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 12/29/08 04:07 PM

Kids don't really understand how much they don't know because they don't have the experience to gauge it. They read their world from their experience (as do we all). Also, it is the lack of restriction to their mental process through lack of training/conditioning which makes them seem wise by making observations an adult might find amazing.

As we get older we hopefully gain more experience and insight. This allows us to read the world. The more/less experience we have the more/less we are able to make greater interpretations.

This is presumably why some older people are so rigid and stuck in their ways; they have experienced things through a narrow thought process and have interpreted it in a narrow way which has not necessarily allowed them to expand their worldview. OR they have stopped expanding their world view and have allowed their intellect to stiffen up.

If we go into a different culture we have two choices (at least); rad the world from our (perhaps) limited knowledge, whereby we either interpret everything according to what we know OR accept we are in a new situation and allow ourselves to experience it all as something new and learn about it as we go on (not actually that easy).

Cord's namesake in the film (Silent Flute?) is a good illustration of this first way of reading. (If I remember correctly) He interprets his teacher's actions as being negative because he doesn't know the full situation and only later learns how good they were when he knows the complete situation.

Cord: How long have you been blind?
Blind Man: How long have you been blind?
Cord: I'm not blind.
Blind Man: Am I?
Cord: Do you answer every question with a question?
Blind Man: Do you question every answer?
Cord: Aww, talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Blind Man: Buddha once sat before a wall, and when he arose he was enlightened.
Cord: Do you compare yourself with Buddha?
Blind Man: (chuckles) No. Only to the wall.


As Lady Bracknell says, "A gentleman should either know nothing or everything, which do you know?" "I know nothing Lady Bracknell". "That is good. Nothing should interfere with natural ignorance".
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 01/31/09 08:20 PM

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your post Cord.

It is very difficult to get this idea across to those who use their intellectual mind to process the world around them. What I mean by "no thinking" is not the idea of being brain dead but rather not using the logical portion (ego) of their mind to process information. The logical mind is many thousands of times weaker than the intuitive mind, yet in my experience over 99% of people use (or are trapped by) the former.

Forgive me for saying the following but your responses are very typical of someone who does exactly that. The very idea that another has grasped an idea that you haven't hurts the logical mind enormously and you will of course react by telling them they are wrong.

It has taken the intuitive mind over 3 billion years to develop, yet the logical mind has come about in the last few hundred thousand. Sacrificing the latter puts you in touch with the former. The problem is that logically you would think that this makes you dumber when in fact it makes you many times more intelligent. True intelligence isn't measurable like IQ is, and the more you use your IQ the less you really know.

My IQ is 159. I am a member of MENSA and a genius. Yet I am adamant that this is useless in terms of life experience, and I try not to use it unless it is necessary because it leads to blindness and madness. Einstein was also adamant that he didn't use his IQ to discover what he did, but stated that if an idea doesn't sound absurd (in logical terms), then there is no hope for it.

I did a little bit of research on Pirsig and in the book you suggest it states, "the physical distance between people has nothing to do with lonliness. It's psychic distance....And people seem to go through huge portions of their lives without much conciousness of what is immediately around them" What I'm saying is that thinking impedes conciousness and therefore increases lonliness. If you're thinking you are day dreaming. Awake, but dreaming just the same.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kK4aVB1uPOg&feature=related

Osho says it better than I can. Look into his eyes, is he thinking logically or using pure intuition?
I hope this somewhat clarifies what I'm trying to get across.

Enlightenment isn't some far off state of mind that has to be reached. Instead we are all enlightened by our nature, it's just that every instant we do something that takes us away from this natural peace. Stop thinking, and you realise your nature. Once you've had a glimpse, you'll do anything to stop thinking, because you'll know its a trap. It is extremely unlikely that any of us will be able to fully immerse ourselves in this conciousness as Osho had done, but we can all develop intuition to a high level and become more peaceful as a result.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 02/02/09 02:21 PM

Quote:

Forgive me for saying the following but your responses are very typical of someone who does exactly that. The very idea that another has grasped an idea that you haven't hurts the logical mind enormously and you will of course react by telling them they are wrong.



I will be sure to contact my old Uni Philosophy lecturers for clarification

Do you not see that in me questioning your interperetation of the world, not only have you resorted to the intellectual thought process to respond, but you have done so out of ego as you feel slighted that I have questioned your theory

Have you read Pirsig yet? I was serious in my advice- his rendering of all life experience in terms of instinctive qualatative value would help you understand and consolidate what you are trying to convey.

Unless you have so much ego invested in your theory as to make questioning it further yourself impossible, of course.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 02/02/09 09:00 PM

Quote:

I wish you all the best in your attempt to find your truth.



Fixed that for you.

The thing is, if you are interested in this stuff, it will behoove you to study philosophy as a broader church- look at classical as well a modern, search for the commonalities and the distinctions between the labyrinthine theories from all around the world that go towards explaining the how's and why's of our beahaviour, purpose, and place in the universe.
You dont have to agree with any of them, but you do need to understand them in order to make sense of your own philosophy should, like you, you decide to define it and represent it to others.
To do otherwise is like stating 'red is the best colour in the world' when you have seen no other.

So good luck in your search, as I feel you have yet to start it with any seriousness.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 02/03/09 01:51 PM

JKD, I must apologise- I have no idea how I ended up editing my reply to you over your post It was not intended, and I truly do wish you happy hunting through the academic world of philosophy should you choose to investigate it further.

Again, sorry for the loss of your post.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 02/03/09 05:35 PM

Quote:

What I'm saying is that thinking impedes conciousness and therefore increases lonliness. If you're thinking you are day dreaming. Awake, but dreaming just the same.



Thinking is going to happen. If you try to stop it from happening, it will only lead to negative feelings. Living in this world means thought will arise. Just reading these words you have to think.

The thing is then, knowing that thoughts will arise, dis-attach from them. Let them come and go.

Thinking doesn't impede consciousness, or make one lonely-- clinging to those thoughts does, allowing them to form an identity that you delude yourself into believing is real.

It is from the very notion that your thoughts divide you from others that causes this division. Where is the division? What thought caused it? Was any other thought directly responsible besides the thought of 'I am divided from others because of my thoughts?'.

"Though I think not
To think about it,
I do think about it
And shed tears
Thinking about it."

--Ryokan

Quote:

Instead we are all enlightened by our nature, it's just that every instant we do something that takes us away from this natural peace.



What is enlightenment? Does it require a total separation from the world, or is it present every second?

When you are taken away from the 'natural peace', realize that there never was such a thing.

Quote:

Stop thinking, and you realise your nature.



What realizes it?

Quote:

Once you've had a glimpse, you'll do anything to stop thinking, because you'll know its a trap.



Then you're still caught up in desire (as am I). The desiring mind is insidious, and even when the hoped for outcome is admirable, it is still just another in-road for the ego to assert control again.

"If you ignore its profundity,
you can never practice stillness.
Like the Great Void, it is Perfect and lacks nothing,
nor has any excess.
If you discriminate,
you will miss its suchness.
Cling not to external causes,
nor stay in the Void.
Differentiation ceases if you can be impartial.
Stillness comes when all disturbances are stopped,
clinging to stillness is also a mistake.
If you cling to opposites,
how will you know the One? "

--Jianzhi Sengcan, 3rd Patriarch of the Zen School.
Posted by: jkdwarrior

Re: Knowing that you know nothing - 02/04/09 02:33 AM

I feel we are all trying to explain the same ideas, just like there are 112 yoga sutras yet some will suit our disposition better than others. Truth seems to be individualistic.

Yes I am still bound by desire, but I make valiant efforts daily to improve myself instead of others, and have been doing so for years. I know my own insanity, this is what I mean by glimpsing truth, your nature recognises itself.
I am however unattached to the need to be right and I get no enjoyment out of "picking holes" in the arguments of others. I'm trying to help, as your servant, and I am learning in the process.

Cord, I did spend years studying philosophy and science as a true seeker, but for the minute however I've given up the academic route and seek even higher happiness from practical experience instead. I love to improve myself and will read the book you suggest in an attempt to rid myself of my ignorance. (please understand that there is no mocking here, my post is sincere)

I will say though that I absolutely love love LOVE my life, not one iota of a lie. Most often I am blissful and peaceful and others notice and many want a taste. Others criticise and make themselves suffer as their remarks bounce off.

Again, it is best for me to bow out of the conversation as it seems to be harming some people which is completely unintended. My positivity could be placed somewhere more productive, and I will go on sending love letters without judgement until they are received, and in the meantime I receive your message in an open minded manner and will improve only myself.