Dishonor?
I cheated today on a test, and was caught. I wouldn't have admitted to it, unless the person (a peer) caught me and they did, and they said either I would admit and turn myself in or they would, so I did. I cheated my cramming a paper with answers in my pocket and going to the bathroom to look at it. However when I admitted it to the teacher all I said was that I saw a paper with some answers laying on the floor. How much did I lie and how dishonorable is this that I didn't say anything (granted that the act of cheatign was dishonorable to begin with)?
The worse thign is I didn't care that I cheated, I only cared when threatened with osmeoen ratting me out.
"Cowards die many times before their deaths, the Valient never taste of death but once."
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 08:12 AM
Yeah...social pressure sucks. Personally, I'd want to pound the ratfink.
The slippery slope of navigating 'morality'. My take (and I'm certain I'm going to Hell...so read with caution): at some points in ones life, getting 'there' matters more and at other times the 'how' one gets there is more important. Matter of priorities.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 09:06 AM
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The slippery slope of navigating 'morality'. My take (and I'm certain I'm going to Hell...so read with caution): at some points in ones life, getting 'there' matters more and at other times the 'how' one gets there is more important. Matter of priorities.
Exactly. See you there, Harlan. 
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 12:16 PM
I told the kid I'd have beat his a** if we had been back in inner city millville NJ, my old home.
I was pretty [censored]. He's gonna go rat on someone else now to. I agree, sometimes the end justifies the means. I'm just trying to make my way.
Posted by: rageace
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 01:56 PM
I feel for you man. People always have a high expectation of me doing well, and if I ever do badly in a test or coursework they put even more pressure on me and even taunt me.
What type of test was it? Did it count towards your grades or towards your ... (whatever the American equivilent to GCSE and A levels is, I have a feeling its highers??)
I think your 'friend' was in a tricky situation. They could have pretended to not know that you cheated, but if you got caught and it got found out that they knew and didn't tell anybody they could get in trouble.
I don't think I'd worry to much, by now you should have a sense of right and wrong, honor and dishonor and you know the circumstances more than us. You must have had good reason to cheat otherwise you wouldn't have done.
Just hope your parents/teachers don't get to mad. And as hard as it sounds try not to beat up the lil' grass.
Rageace
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 02:00 PM
Perhaps...an opportunity to move on. Forgive and forget...and all that?
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I agree, sometimes the end justifies the means. I'm just trying to make my way.
philisophically, what would be a legitimate means to break the rules to acheive the goal? for example, the modern treatment for hypothermia came from Nazi experiments in concentration camps. First they would freeze people and the first round of tests put them under heat lamps. These patients died. The next round they were subjected to having boiling water injected into body cavities. They died. The third round they were submersed into boiling water. They still died. The forth and final round had them put into room temperature water and the temp was gradually increased. Almost all of them survived the experiment. I take it to a far end of the scale to illustrate the point that where should the line be drawn in these cases. Cheating on a test is incomparable to what the example I gave was about, but rules are rules for a reason. Just throwing in philosphy of sorts, not much seriousness here.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 02:20 PM
I figure 'intent' is a key factor. Do I tell on a cheater...or not? Why...what is my intent?
I know I wouldn't want a doctor that cheated on his/her tests. Of course, there's no way to find out. I snitched on a whole class that was going to cheat on a test. The whole class received 0 for it (I had it as a study hall). I had nothing to gain, but I was also the club's Chaplain and had been given the title because of a paper on ethics. Point being, we can't stop all cases of people breaking the rules, but rules are there to keep people from being harmed. edit: I speed all the time, but everytime I've gotten a ticket, I've paid for it, not hired a lawyer to get it off my record.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 02:38 PM
You mean...you think you deserved to 'pay' for the infraction of the rule? And by extension...so should all others (pay for breaking rules)? What's the motivation? To preserve the sanctity of the speed limit? To reinforce societial pressure to conform? Or is the intent of red lights and the traffic system forgotten?
Turn me in: when I'm driving home late at night, and have to stop at a red light...if there is no visible traffic...I will run it. Guess my ethics are in the toilet.
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I've paid for it, not hired a lawyer to get it off my record.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 02:41 PM
It was a sports medicine test. I feel kind of bad cuz I just forgot to study, well origionally i was lazy then i forgot.
I actually did study but I studied the wrong stuff. I was annoyed that what I ddi studfy up on quite a bit wasn't even part of the test. I dont know, to me it doesn't matter about cheating on a test once in awhile. I just want the grade. I still know the stuff somewhat well. You live and learn. Next time I jsut gotta make sure not to get caught, lol.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 02:43 PM
You aspire to mediocrity in your career?
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Guess my ethics are in the toilet.
I'm not going for that or deliberately making insults and if I've came across that way, I apologize. What I'm trying to get across is that breaking rules have consequences. When we intentionally break a rule and get caught, why wouldn't we be held accountable? How can the punishment be unjustified? That's the point I'm getting at. Personally, I don't believe anyone holds the traffic laws or many other laws with any form of sanctity. However, I do find it interesting when people that get caught get angry at the person who either enforced the law/rule, or the person that turned them in. In middle school, I cheated off someone once, and never again did I do it. He wouldn't turn you in, he would change his answers right before he turned in the test. I took the long road to say, I break rules too, but don't be angry because you got called on it. 
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 02:57 PM
Sorry...I forgot the smiley before.
Taking chances. Weighing the cost/benefit of any action...and accepting the possible outcome. But...not all actions are equal...not even the same action...I think.
For example, a 4 year old walks out of a store with a doll. A 17 year old walks out with a CD. A 40 year old walks out with baby formula. They are all 'stealing'...but is it all the same? How do 'judge'?
That's the whacked part and why I'm glad I'm not a judge.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 03:12 PM
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You aspire to mediocrity in your career?
I aspire t6o excellence at what "turns me on" or what I enjoy and want to excel at. Granted this is one area I should excel at, but as long as I learn the material eventually and do well when it counts I'm satisfied. I have plans for my future, I nkow where I'm going, and I nkow what it'll take to get there. So I'm a jack of my trade adn master of it, not all trades. I'm having the same issue with amth. I know what I need to nkow and what I care to know, so the rest is just making a grade.
Being a judge is certainly a tough job.
Posted by: MastaFighta
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 05:39 PM
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It was a sports medicine test. I feel kind of bad cuz I just forgot to study, well origionally i was lazy then i forgot.
I actually did study but I studied the wrong stuff. I was annoyed that what I ddi studfy up on quite a bit wasn't even part of the test. I dont know, to me it doesn't matter about cheating on a test once in awhile. I just want the grade. I still know the stuff somewhat well. You live and learn. Next time I jsut gotta make sure not to get caught, lol.
If you knew it was wrong to cheat on the test then you shouldn't of done it. The kid that caught you and told the teacher probably felt cheated that he has to rely on what he remembers while you only have to look in your pocket. What's worse is that you made an excuse for why you didn't study, which you stated, "I just forgot to study, well origionally i was lazy then i forgot." Not only shouldn't you make excuses but you shouldn't also make yourself look more guilty by saying you were lazy and that you forgot. You can't afford an easy ride through school, not with how things are changing.
As it for being dishonorable, I would say yes. Is it very dishonorable? That depends on you and those who know of this situation.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 05:46 PM
Why is it wrong? and he could have just as easily cheated. As I stated before I dont really care if I cheat as long as I learn the stuff eventually and get the grade. I just dont care. He should mind his own damn business, becuase hey, if it doesn't hurt anyone whats the harm?
Dishonorable or not. I dont have the spirit to live a completely honorable life. I'm learning that more and more, I wont be perfect and completely honorable nor can I.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Dishonor? - 11/07/06 06:20 PM
Storm
"why?"
Easy, because he could.
Problem is that when you choose to throw away the "rules"--then why should it upset you if someone else decided to do the same.
If your not interested in following the rules--why should anyone else be held to a higher standard?
Plus, depending on how the class is set up--its NOT all about you.
The dude may have really studied hard and you cheating might have thrown off the curve.
Why should he bust his arse--asuumeing of course that he did--only to "lose" to a cheater?
Or maybe he he didn't study much at all and needed to "take out" a competitior.
You'd flip out if someone clearly "cheated" to beat you in a sparring match---same thing in the classroom--"maybe" from his perspective you had no right to a grade you didn't earn.
Anyway, like said before, cheaters have little right to bitch---nobody forced you to cheat--you decided that all on your own.
Nobody said you had to be pure as the driven snow---lord knows I'm not.
But nobody said that you can always escape the repercussions of your own actions either.
You make your own choices, you suffer or enjoy the results.
That's hard, but that's life.
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I cheated today on a test, and was caught. I wouldn't have admitted to it, unless the person (a peer) caught me and they did, and they said either I would admit and turn myself in or they would, so I did. I cheated my cramming a paper with answers in my pocket and going to the bathroom to look at it. However when I admitted it to the teacher all I said was that I saw a paper with some answers laying on the floor. How much did I lie and how dishonorable is this that I didn't say anything (granted that the act of cheatign was dishonorable to begin with)?
The worse thign is I didn't care that I cheated, I only cared when threatened with osmeoen ratting me out.
Work smarter, not harder.
Cheat your way through high school, I doubt we are really learning things that will help us in life that much.
Posted by: JoelM
Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/07/06 11:24 PM
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but as long as I learn the material eventually and do well when it counts I'm satisfied.
Umm, you didn't learn it when it counted, on the test.
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I'm having the same issue with amth.
So are you going to cheat on math and then beat up the guy who snitches on you?
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I have plans for my future, I nkow where I'm going, and I nkow what it'll take to get there.
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I know what I need to nkow and what I care to know, so the rest is just making a grade.
How do you know? You're in high school!!! You don't know what you'll need to know for your career. You're just making up excuses for not studying hard and slacking off.
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I told the kid I'd have beat his a** if we had been back in inner city millville NJ, my old home.
Yeah...that's mature. 
You cheated. You got caught. Then you lied about it to not get in trouble.
Grow some balls and do your homework.
PS- Dude, spellcheck is your friend. Apparently you need help in the English department as well.
PPS-No, I'm not perfect. Never said I was. But my job is to enforce rules and I'm sick and tired of people cheating and taking the cheap and easy way out.
Posted by: crablord
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 01:19 AM
ignore joel, hes an adult. If you cheated. Dont admit it, the kid had no proof. I wouldnt care if I cheated on a test, theres nothing morally wrong with that. And seriously id be [censored] off too if some kid ratted me out on it. its none of his business.
Posted by: trevek
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 06:00 AM
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PS- Dude, spellcheck is your friend. Apparently you need help in the English department as well.
NO! A dictionary is your friend. Spellchecks generally say the word is spelt correctly but not if it is the correct word.
For example: Can ewe say witch flours grow in all wethers?
is spelt correctly.
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Cheat your way through high school, I doubt we are really learning things that will help us in life that much.
Learning NOT to cheat in high school is the one lesson you learn in high school that will help you much in life. Ask those people rotting away serving time.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 09:42 AM
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I wouldnt care if I cheated on a test, theres nothing morally wrong with that.
Kid, you've got some [censored] up morals.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 12:01 PM
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but as long as I learn the material eventually and do well when it counts I'm satisfied.
Umm, you didn't learn it when it counted, on the test.
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I'm having the same issue with amth.
So are you going to cheat on math and then beat up the guy who snitches on you?
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I have plans for my future, I nkow where I'm going, and I nkow what it'll take to get there.
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I know what I need to nkow and what I care to know, so the rest is just making a grade.
How do you know? You're in high school!!! You don't know what you'll need to know for your career. You're just making up excuses for not studying hard and slacking off.
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I told the kid I'd have beat his a** if we had been back in inner city millville NJ, my old home.
Yeah...that's mature.
You cheated. You got caught. Then you lied about it to not get in trouble.
Grow some balls and do your homework.
PS- Dude, spellcheck is your friend. Apparently you need help in the English department as well.
PPS-No, I'm not perfect. Never said I was. But my job is to enforce rules and I'm sick and tired of people cheating and taking the cheap and easy way out.
Yes, I'm sorry Joel but I do know where I'm going. After high school I'm goign to college for a couple years, where I'll study exercise physiology, sports medicine, sports psychology and business.
Then I will join the U.S. Marine Corps and serve in the infantry for 4 to 6 years while training in MCMAP to attain at least a 2nd degree black belt in their program if not higher. After that I plan to be a personal trainer and teach martial arts and self protection on the side. I will have a family and I'd like to then have a nice house and whatnot.
About oyur issue with my spelling, that has no relevance to this discussion and was a waste of my time. You wasted the 5 seconds or so it took me to read that. In any case I'm an honors english student; I'm currently reading Moby D ick for recreation and recently read 1984.
I simply type fast.
I take the cheap and easy way out when I dont care, when I do care I'll take the right way out.
Dont come to me with this condescending attitude like you're so much better than me becuase you know what you're not. Sorry to break that to you. You dont really know me so dont judge me. I have areas where I'll freely admit I'm plenty dishonorable but in other areas I honorable and show integrity. LAtely I've fallen quite a bit, but that happens it's life. We cant be great all the time nor can we be great at everything. You specialise i na few areas and everything else you do only whats necessary, unless oyu want to live ot work or live ot study and I'd rather study and work to live. 
Posted by: cxt
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 12:40 PM
Storm
You ought to go back and read my post.
Like I said, you have little room to BMW about someone else breaking the "rules" since you broke the "rules" yourself.
Why should the person that caught you cheating be held to higher ethical standard than you apply to yourself?
(BTW--the Corp takes a very dim view of people that try and "shortcut" things--;) )
As I mentioned--its not always about "you."
"You" may not care--perhaps the other guy did?
Perhaps the teachers cares?
And they acted on THIER feelings just as you did.
Nobody is perfect--certainly not me.
But you make your own choices--so you have only yourself to blame or reward.
That's hard, but that's life.
Posted by: jamesjj
Re: Dishonor? - 11/08/06 12:58 PM
Really the only intent that is legitimate would be to have a clean consciensce. If it is not for that reason then it is likely just for revenge or to cause pain.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/08/06 01:03 PM
You mean...to unburden yourself? To act...selfishly?
Posted by: jamesjj
Re: Dishonor? - 11/08/06 01:36 PM
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You mean...to unburden yourself? To act...selfishly?
But isn't the most selfish act to ask someone to have bad Karma for the sake of yourself? There is no worse thing to ask of a person than to lie for your cause. Not giving information that affects everyone is lying. To ask someone to keep a secret is to ask them to lie for their entire life if neceessary, that imo is the ultimate act of selfishness.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? - 11/08/06 01:42 PM
I don't recall asking anyone being asked to keep a secret...in this scenario. I'm also unsure, myself, if a secret is the same as a lie.
I guess I would have to ask myself...'what is the compassionate thing to do...or not do?' For me, it comes back to intent.
I read an interesting saying on an Aikido forum the other day, that I've been thinking on:
'O-Sensei taught us to be merciful, not to be nice.'
Compassionate view and action...isn't always 'nice'.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 03:16 PM
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Storm
You ought to go back and read my post.
Like I said, you have little room to BMW about someone else breaking the "rules" since you broke the "rules" yourself.
Why should the person that caught you cheating be held to higher ethical standard than you apply to yourself?
(BTW--the Corp takes a very dim view of people that try and "shortcut" things--;) )
As I mentioned--its not always about "you."
"You" may not care--perhaps the other guy did?
Perhaps the teachers cares?
And they acted on THIER feelings just as you did.
Nobody is perfect--certainly not me.
But you make your own choices--so you have only yourself to blame or reward.
That's hard, but that's life.
I'm not mad at him anymore, I jsut had to cool down. I think I was more angry with myself for gettign caught, and more so for not being responsible in the first place.
Posted by: stormbringer
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 03:29 PM
That's definately cool, and I think most people are reiterating accepting responsibility for your actions. What's happened has happened and just go foreward.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 04:55 PM
CXT, I never complained that HE broke rules becuase he never did, I did.
Anyway, I realise the Corps is vehemently agaisnt that sort of hting, and I'm trying to work o nthat. I'm just counting on being interested enough in what they do to not shot change myself.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 05:32 PM
when I was at school cheating on tests was an art of deception..............
we were never caught, let this be a lesson to you boy !
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 06:07 PM
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when I was at school cheating on tests was an art of deception..............
we were never caught, let this be a lesson to you boy !
What he said. It's an art of deception. I just haven't learned to never get caught yet.
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/08/06 11:43 PM
Well, a large part of military strategy (and by extension MA) IS about deception.
What's the issue here? Are you confused about your moral value system? Or the fact that someone has imposed an ethical framework upon you by exposing your deceit? Or that you harboured feelings for evening the score?
I'm confused....
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 12:01 AM
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Yes, I'm sorry Joel but I do know where I'm going. After high school I'm goign to college for a couple years, where I'll study exercise physiology, sports medicine, sports psychology and business.
Then I will join the U.S. Marine Corps and serve in the infantry for 4 to 6 years while training in MCMAP to attain at least a 2nd degree black belt in their program if not higher. After that I plan to be a personal trainer and teach martial arts and self protection on the side. I will have a family and I'd like to then have a nice house and whatnot.
That's nice, good luck with that (I do mean that sincerely). Go around to a bunch of 40-somethings and ask them if their life went exactly how they planned it. Get back to me when you get the answers.
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About oyur issue with my spelling, that has no relevance to this discussion and was a waste of my time. You wasted the 5 seconds or so it took me to read that. In any case I'm an honors english student; I'm currently reading Moby D ick for recreation and recently read 1984.
I simply type fast.
Well here, let me waste another 5-10 seconds of your life for you. If you go through and make a post with a bunch of spelling errors it makes you look like you're not intelligent. Unless you're going to preface or end every post with "I'm an honors english student; I'm currently reading Moby D ick for recreation and recently read 1984.
I simply type fast." then people won't know. Plus it's just lazy and annoying. That's my personal opinion and I don't care what you think about it. There, was that 10 seconds or so wasted of your time? You want some more? Do ya? Huh? Huh? I didn't think so!!
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Dont come to me with this condescending attitude like you're so much better than me becuase you know what you're not. Sorry to break that to you.
That's really funny, because I broke the same thing to you in my post. Or were you too lazy to read it? You know, at the end, where I said "No, I'm not perfect. Never said I was." Yeah, go back and read it buddy. Never said I was better than you and I wasn't being condescending. As I said, it's my job to yell at people for doing things wrong, and it [censored] me off when that happens, especially when things were done decietfully wrong.
This one takes the cake:
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You dont really know me so dont judge me.
Whereas in your very first post you ask to be judged:
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How much did I lie and how dishonorable is this that I didn't say anything (granted that the act of cheatign was dishonorable to begin with)?
Make up your mind.
You only complain when others don't conform and call you a sneaky little boy with what you did.
Or you can just follow crab's advice and ignore me. I have my opinion and am free to voice it. I doubt I'm likely to change yours, nor you mine.
Good luck on your next test.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 01:00 AM
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Then I will join the U.S. Marine Corps and serve in the infantry...
I have areas where I'll freely admit I'm plenty dishonorable but in other areas I honorable and show integrity.
Even a murderer / child molester can be honourable in "some areas"
This will be very good reference material when you go for the USMC recruitment interview. Perhaps they can teach you something about what honour is all about.
Posted by: crablord
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 01:09 AM
dude seriously...who gives a crap..you cheated a test. Its not harming anyone so its not wrong. It may not be the best path to take all the time but that time it was just so you could pass a test. I reckon the [censored] who ratted on you is the one in the wrong. Personally id have his ass but thats just me..
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 07:38 AM
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I reckon the [censored] who ratted on you is the one in the wrong. Personally id have his ass but thats just me..
Just don't try and box him.
Posted by: crablord
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 07:48 AM
ill use my superior intellect to beat him. lol
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 11:51 AM
Those 40 somethings obviously did something wrong, maybe lost their motivation, or they had a major catastrophe that giot in their way. I'll make it.
Now, I ask for your advice and opinion, not for you top belittle me.
Yeah you did waste another 10 seconds of mine, thank oyu very much.
And yes I'll admit I can be a sneaky little boy.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 11:52 AM
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Then I will join the U.S. Marine Corps and serve in the infantry...
I have areas where I'll freely admit I'm plenty dishonorable but in other areas I honorable and show integrity.
Even a murderer / child molester can be honourable in "some areas"
This will be very good reference material when you go for the USMC recruitment interview. Perhaps they can teach you something about what honour is all about. [/quo
What?
Posted by: harlan
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 11:56 AM
Guys...let's not get personal about this; If people want to explore events that bother them, things that bring up issues that they need to resolve, I think we can do it without getting personal.
Storm's ethics will have to be worked out...on his own. Basically, this is because no matter the 'good advice' or 'well meaning intentions' of other posters...it comes down to learning through experience.
Storm...one question: if you were in a MA tourney, and cheated on your weight class in order to win...how is that any different from the written test you took?
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 11:58 AM
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Those 40 somethings obviously did something wrong, maybe lost their motivation, or they had a major catastrophe that giot in their way. I'll make it.
I forgot, you're invincible. As are all high schoolers.
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Yeah you did waste another 10 seconds of mine, thank oyu very much.
Oh, you are so very much welcome. Any time I can do that for you just let me know. I will do my best, such as now. And I know you're going to read this because you just have to, you don't know what I'll say. Will I insult you? Maybe. Will I make fun of or belittle you? Maybe. I guess you'll just have to keep on reading to find out what happens. It may happen now, it may not. It may happen at the end of my post or somewhere in the middle. You never know.
bye bye. 
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Dishonor? Hell yes! - 11/09/06 05:18 PM
If I was in a competition, I wouldn't cheat becuase it's not something I can get lectured for or yelled at or anyhting for losing, and it wont influence my future in any way (ok my gradnpa would complain if I lost as he alkways does, but
still)
And thats a perosnal competition, agaisnt people a test is just a test, it doesn't have to do with others.
And yes I'm having a hard time figuring out my ethics.
Damnit Joel, you did it again! You're a tricky guy but I'll get ya! Some adults have that invincible attitude to in fact many.