What is 'Truth'?
Posted by: harlan
What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 01:03 PM
In one of the very earliest Western books about Tibetan Buddhism, entitled "The Message of the Tibetans," Arnaud Desjardin reported a conversation that he had had with Kalu Rinpoche.
He had asked Rinpoche the age-old question,
"What is Truth?"
Rinpoche replied,
"You live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality, and you are that reality, but you don’t know it. If you should ever wake up to that reality you would realize that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all."
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 01:52 PM
What if the concepts of ultimate truth and ultimate reality are themselves the illusion?
Posted by: harlan
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 01:54 PM
You got it.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 02:23 PM
yay!
but is truth a relative or absolute?
Posted by: harlan
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 02:27 PM
Aren't those concepts as well?
Quote:
but is truth a relative or absolute?
Posted by: trevek
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 02:34 PM
This sounds like the conversation with the bomb in 'Dark Satr".
Posted by: stormbringer
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 03:27 PM
Relative, of course. I say the glass is half full, you say half empty. It still has the same amount of water and we're both correct. Einstine's theory is still going strong despite being
Posted by: harlan
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 03:31 PM
I'd say...it's neither. That truth might be...experiential and nonconceptual.
"When a practitioner is introduced to naked awareness...in the moment of recognizing the essence of awareness,
the obscuration of dualistic knowledge is absent."
Posted by: stormbringer
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 03:42 PM
experiential? existential maybe?
Posted by: eyrie
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 05:49 PM
Truth Lies.... in the eye of the beholder
Posted by: gojuwarrior1
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/06/06 06:00 PM
Truth is (see signature)
Posted by: ButterflyPalm
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/07/06 02:19 AM
To tell you the truth, I've no idea what Truth is or is not. I only know what I know and what I don't know, I ask my fishmonger. Having fresh fish is very important to me.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/07/06 07:04 AM
The best answers are always the simplest. Don't allow yourself into the trap of analysis paralysis. Thats part of the problem with philosophy; people spend way too much time looking for complicated solutions to simple problems.
The truth often hides in plain view.
-John
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/08/06 05:06 PM
Truth is dualistic. External Truth is what happeneds outside of oyur mind/sperit and involves physical beings. It is objective and unquestionable, what happens/happened happenes/happened no matter what oyu believe. For example if I kill some guy off the street, there's no questioning that I kileld him. I can believe and oyu can beleive that I didn't kill him but that does not change the fact that it happened that. What happenes hapopens and there can be nothing else. Every action has one cause. 3 peopel couldn't have killed the same guy off the street in the same reality. One person did it.
Next truth is internal: Truth is what I percieve to be true. For Example, Two peopel can percieve the same object but see it differently. Or I may see htis situation as dangerous and oyu may see it as good. It isn't one way or the other it could be good or bad depending on who is percieving and experiencing it. One sitUATION MAY BE GOOD FOR A CERTAIN PERSON BUT BAD FOR ANOTHER.
tHIS IS Just my opinion, I hope it all makes sense and gives oyu al lsomethign interesting to think about.
Posted by: umsangil
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/11/06 02:40 PM
I think truth is directly related to what you can use, feel, and perceive with your senses.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/11/06 04:24 PM
I'm colorblind. My 'truth' as to what green is is different from your 'truth' of green.
Is my truth wrong? Can truth be wrong?
Posted by: ButterflyPalm
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/11/06 11:29 PM
Quote:
I'm colorblind.
Is it true that colourblind people see red as, what, yellow?
If there is such a thing as the ultimate Truth, it has to be that there is no such thing.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/11/06 11:41 PM
in the purest sense of the word, 'truth' in unknowable.
for our intents and purposes, truth is a relative term....since our truths would mean nothing without it's counterpart.
pure truth doesn't need falsities to define it. WE only perceive our 'truth' since we contrast it with the 'false'.
being honestly comfortable with the unknowable, I'm finding, is extreamly difficult....but worth it.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/12/06 01:02 PM
Quote:
Is it true that colourblind people see red as, what, yellow?
It depends on what type of colorblindness you have. I am mildly deuteranopic, meaning I have problems seeing red and green. I see them often as hues of brown.
This page has some good examples:
http://www.vischeck.com/examples/
This page has the test:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/5571/vidaurri_5.html
I see nothing on cards
8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, and 21
Fun, ain't it? 
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/12/06 08:18 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm colorblind.
Is it true that colourblind people see red as, what, yellow?
If there is such a thing as the ultimate Truth, it has to be that there is no such thing.
That's an internal/perceptive truth. That's the part that's relative. Yes it is true, for you and not true for me. for all practical purposes that color is what you see.
Now with external/nonfalsifiable truth than that wouodn't be truth but your case does not apply to external truth. truisms are true and falsisms are false.
Posted by: TimBlack
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/01/06 06:34 PM
Quote:
If there is such a thing as the ultimate Truth, it has to be that there is no such thing.
Isn't the absence of truth a 'Truth' in itself? Does that not make your statement self-refuting? I think the same holds for Ed, although his concept of 'truth' seems more expansive than I think we would normally be comfortable with - I think perhaps he means 'purpose' or 'the meaning of life'
Anyway, I suggest people look up Plato's argument against Protagorean Relativism in the Meno (it's a dialogue). That should banish this relativist and self-refuting nonsense
Posted by: JKogas
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/01/06 06:47 PM
The "truth" is, that philosophy is for people with a LOT of leisure time on their hands.
-John
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/01/06 07:41 PM
There's no ultimate truth? So if everyone believes 2 plus 2 is 5 then it's 5? The truth is what everyone beleives? If everyone believes oyu killed kennedy then oyu did and not the real killer?
Posted by: JKogas
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/01/06 08:08 PM
Of course there is absolute truth.
Here is another example of that truth. 70 miles per hour is the speed limit on I-40 between Statesville and Winston-Salem, North Carolina. It is absolute truth because it's an irrefutable fact.
Be careful not to let those into mental masturbation attempt to have you believe that the sun is shining when the rain is pouring. Dig?
-John
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/01/06 08:15 PM
I think I'm with you on this one.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/01/06 09:42 PM
Quote:
The "truth" is, that philosophy is for people with a LOT of leisure time on their hands.
-John
No, it is for people with a LOT of food in their stomaches.
Posted by: TimBlack
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/02/06 05:46 AM
Quote:
Of course there is absolute truth.
Here is another example of that truth. 70 miles per hour is the speed limit on I-40 between Statesville and Winston-Salem, North Carolina. It is absolute truth because it's an irrefutable fact.
Be careful not to let those into mental masturbation attempt to have you believe that the sun is shining when the rain is pouring. Dig?
-John
Of course, you're unlikely to find philosophers who are relativists. I think that the comment about philosophy being for people with a lot of time on their hands is a bit of a cheap shot to be honest; deciding on what we know, how we know it, and what's right and wrong strikes me as pretty important. The argument that philosophers 'overthink' things is ridiculous, it's just an excuse on behalf of other people who want to justify their un-thought-out positions by claiming that those who actually take the time to think about something are automatically wrong.
I mean, would you say we should ignore Einstein, Newton, Quantam Mechanics, and systematised MA because their creators had 'too much time on their hands'? I think railling against philosophy is a pretty anti-intellectual position to take. 
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 12/14/06 01:01 AM
how about: truth is in knowing what's false.
? well...at least it's logical
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/04/07 07:51 AM
that would make truth a sum of known facts (false things, that is). this might be plausible for an objective reality, for a logical system, from which you can extract "what is true", simply by putting aside "what is wrong".
assuming that there is in fact an objective reality you would still have to be capable of completely grasping this reality's logic. we're getting close to laplace's demon here.
i agree with TimBlack that dismissing philosophy as a hobby of those blessed with free time (or food) is quite risky.
what could be more important? eating? sleeping? earning money? going to the dojo?
all of these share one characteristic: they are all means to an end. which you don't know yet! you do all of these without even asking, why you do them? sure, one could be satisfied with doing things because they are fun to do.
what one should not forget, is that this attitude means restricting oneself to an animal's level of reflexion
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/04/07 11:28 AM
We do these things to improve the quality of our lives and become happy.
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/04/07 08:02 PM
this is the just-for-fun-shortcut i mentioned before. if you seriously ponder this position you get to the next question: why is it fun to do?
let's take a look at nature again:
animals mate, because it is fun, it is pleasure. why is it fun? so they mate often and reproduce. why should they reproduce? so that evolution can take place. why evolution? for optimization. why optimization? maybe for being able to grasp truth
to my mind having fun is just a bait, an invitation to some kind of activity that brings you closer to your...eh, fate? purpose? whatever. anyway, explaning your own actions by saying "it is fun to do, it makes me happy!" without considering the implications appears a bit inkonsequent to me.
back to the topic
truth?
"This is the moment!", how about this?
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/05/07 12:04 PM
Well, it is fun becuase it is pleasurable and it is pleasurable becuase it releases endorphins in your brain.
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/05/07 12:14 PM
indeed. that's the second step, after "because it is fun!", but nothing more than the second step. i sincerely doubt that the release of endorphines in your body is the "true" purpose of your activity. i tried to explain this in my last post.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/05/07 01:17 PM
The purpose of my activity is to live an exciting, full and happy life. But what does it mean to be happy and why?
Physical pleasure comes from the release of endorphins in teh brain or at least mostly, but there's more to it I think. It goes back the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the last, the need for self actualization or doing what you need to do. Example-A painter must paint and so they paint endlessly.
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/05/07 06:17 PM
in maslow's hierarchy of needs every step is the necessary groundwork for the next higher step. so every step serves only as a basis for his successor. he assumes, that actualization of self does not serve this purpose and that a person has, by achieving it, found his or her purpose in life.
so, a truth might be "man strives for actualization of his inner self." great! as far as any individual is concerned, all he has to do is to satisfy his needs until he can reach fulfillment. then he has found his place and life, alright.
so, why is he driven to "actualize himself"? why does he even have needs he wants to satisfy? why can't he just be happy without doing anything, biologically starving, with a smile on his face? so, even if the self-actualization is the last step man has to be concerned with, the question arises, what end is served, when he finds his very own place in life. maslow's hierarchy is sufficient to explain psychological matters but it is not complex enough to explain any form of a real "truth".
as far as i unterstand the concept of zen, zen tries to free the practioner from his needs, or rather from the desire to satisfy his needs, by instructing him how to reach self-actualization or harmony within the world, despite him not having built the basis that maslow's hierarchy makes a requirement. so, that truth would be along the lines of "you can reach self-actualization, no matter what your circumstances are."
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/05/07 09:01 PM
If oyu have no purpose and drive and 'need' then why live? What's the point of jsut 'living'?
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/05/07 09:53 PM
Truth is little more than a persons perception of his reality. Whats true for you may certainly be untrue for me, so "truth" does not mean "correct" or "right" and the inverse of that is also true.
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 08:56 AM
@Stormdragon
the point of zen is not "just living" but actualization of your self while "just living".
@Chen Zen
this is especially true because you can't be sure that there even is anything beyond your perception
Posted by: harlan
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 10:46 AM
There are some who say that everything is delusion...even enlightenment.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 10:48 AM
Actually Chen yes it does. Truth is external at least in part. If I believe you didn't post that, it doesn't change the fact that you did. It's not 'my truth' it's just ignorance. There HAS to be definite truth, it's illogical that there wouldn't be.
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 11:20 AM
why should it be illogical? how do you prove the existence of an external truth? if somebody wants to believe that everything he percieves is just a subjective illusion, there is little you can do to prove him wrong. actually, i don't see anything at all you could do to prove a objective reality.
if i, for example, said: "hey, stormdragon is nothing but a personification of a certain part of my personality who wants to get me to think about realities!", what are you going to do about it? well, okay, you could punch me on my nose, i guess
but all i would do after that is think: "oh, okay, that part of myself reacts that way if i ignore it."
the belief that everything you experience is just a part of your self can't be objected.
Posted by: Katana83
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 06:50 PM
We do not percieve things as they truly are, we only percieve things from our own perspective. That is how we are wired, and we can't help it. Truth from a metaphysical standpoint would probably be - truth is merely perception. Truth from a scientific perspective would be - truth is that which can be demonstrated infinitely and still yeild the same result.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 06:50 PM
It may or may not be true, but it is either true or not it can't be both. If I believe I exist and you believe I dont I caqnt be both I have to either exist or not.
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 07:44 PM
i am afraid that if i denied the existence of an external reality, this would not convince me.
you believe in your own existence (a good thing to believe in) and you believe in mine as well, but i deny your existence.
you realize this conflict of convictions because you accept my opinion which is a plausible thing to do, because you accept my existence. so you are able to see the contradiction. two contradicting statements concerning the question "does stormdragon exist?", logic demands one of them be true, the other false.
but i do not accept your existence neither your claim of existence. so, for me, there are no contradicting statements or opinions. i'll assume my own opinion and perception to be the only ones, so for me there is no logical comparison and no objective truth. i would just hold on to my opinion.
umm...is my reasoning logical? i certainly hope so...
it's 01:40h in central europe now...that will be my excuse if it should turn out to be illogical^^
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/06/07 09:19 PM
To take a tangent, I'm having trouble figuring out what I believe. I dont want this to be a fire storm or religion vs. religion debate, but I was raised Christian but now I'm not sure I believe it all. I mean, what about free will? how does science coincide with the bible? Is there hell and satan? If so why sould there be eternal pain for anyone? That's terrible! I dont get it. Also I'm afraid to reject the beliefs I was raised on. Help!!!
Posted by: baumschrat
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/07/07 07:12 AM
oh, okay...
maybe our little exampe shows us, that it all boils down to a level, where truth is just a matter of attitude and believes.
but since you insist on a objective reality you'll propably have some trouble accepting this opinion^^
to my mind it is interesting that many bulletin boards outlaw discussions about religion but permit philosophical arguments. both are metaphysical topics and both should be handled in a neutral and reasonable way. but apparently, religion seems to be treated more emotionally that philosophy...
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/07/07 02:52 PM
Yeah, well religion seems more strict and and cut and dry. Also people are more certain with it.
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 07/07/07 11:19 PM
Interesting topic. I have been thinking about this a great deal recently, with regards to truth and teaching/representations which I make. Truth definitely has impact on our lives. For example, if I say "genetic engineering is good" or represent this, I may have an impact upon those people who read this, especially children who may not know better. However, if I do not have the facts to back up what I am saying, is it morally right for me to have said it, possibly ruining their perceptions of something which may come to harm them greatly?
Truth is indeed something of vital importance to our everyday lives, not something to merely be discussed by stuffy academics with too much time on their hands.
Truth and fact should in my opinion be linked but not all of us have the ability to find facts. It is a perplexing situation not to know what to believe, to be nearly unable to separate truth from lie. You may believe that you are able to ascertain truth and indeed you may be, but if I were to ask you what source, authority and proof you have of all your beliefs, you may be hard pressed to justify them. In which case, would it still be correct to represent them to other people?
Furthermore, is worrying about telling the truth merely a foolishly crippling endeavour? Does striving to find the truth disable us from being able to act? Is it then right to act without the whole truth, only to later find that we may have been wrong? We have seen this happen with our politicians many times over in recent decades (perhaps for centuries even).
I say that truth and its value are hardly abstract. They have a great impact on many lives every day, hundreds of thousands of people depend on the truth to escape hardship, for example, look at the impact of wars v.s. the impact of trade/aid embargos. Which is worse? Which appears worse? We in the free world appear to collectively have control over our destinies and how our world works, but if we do not collectively know the truth of how our world actually works, we have very little control indeed.
The question of "what is the truth and is it important?" is a puzzling question indeed. I personally believe that it is more important to say something which may possibly be untrue than not to have said anything at all and let the present generally accepted opinion never go unquestioned. That said, the speaker of such an opinion bears a moral burden to do everything within their power to ensure that what they say correlates with fact to the best of their knowledge, lest they become an outright liar.
Posted by: hoadvahCazy
ruweb.ru - русские в англии, форум - 10/20/07 01:13 AM
Posted by: MattJ
SPAM ALERT ATTN MODS - 10/20/07 07:33 AM
ban please
Posted by: Cafa
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/14/07 11:52 AM
Truth doesn't exist, we can only get pieces of it. If you want to test that, choose a politician. Learn everything there is to know about him, both as a family man and a professional. Analyze all his moves and the impact they made on the other people. And then just ask yourself "is he good or bad"? You won't be able to answer, unless you chose a guy who really stands out.
There are always many points of view, and all may be correct. That happens whenever you're trying to find a "truth" which isn't based on hard facts. So, your opinion can only lean towards positive or towards negative, but in the end - it's still just an opinion, not THE truth.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/14/07 10:16 PM
We can get pieces of something that doesn't exist? Makes perfect sense!
Posted by: Ronin1966
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/14/07 11:24 PM
"All life is a straight punch" (Lyons Sensei c. 1986)
Jeff
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/15/07 04:06 AM
All life is a straight punch? BRILLIANT! Anyway a teacher I had put it this way: "I believe water is wet, the sky is blue, and grass is green but everyone's idea of wet, blue, and green is skewed from everyone elses."
My first day of class with him (English) sophmore year, he put a weird little sculpture thing in the middle of class and had everyone in a circle around it. He asked us what we saw. We all gave different views and opinions. the point was that we all view the same reality, the same truth, but our views are different. This tells me truth is two fold-there is a factual truth as in external reality which is water, the sky, or grass or the sculpture, then perceptual truth, which is wet, blue, and green or our different views on what we saw when lookign at the sculpture. It cannot be denied (if using common sense) that there is an objective, external reality that is unaffected by our perspectives. All I may see is the head of the sculpture but that does not mean there is only a head. The truth is there is more, that is nonegotiable.
But what is most directly important and useful to me is what I see.
The main thing is to know when to use perceptual truth to describe something or factual truth. It's about using the right terms in the right situations. As far as I can tell anyway.
Posted by: Kujaku
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/21/07 11:30 AM
Quote:
Relative, of course. I say the glass is half full, you say half empty. It still has the same amount of water and we're both correct. Einstine's theory is still going strong despite being
When someone says "Is the glass half empty or half full" I believe that it depends on how the glass got to that current state. Meaning, if you take an empty glass and pour it half full of water, then it is half full. But if you take a full glass of water and drink half, then it is half empty.
But of course, Truth is relative, it is defined by the masses, even if what you see is not actually true, if the masses say it is, then it is.
Plus, of course, "Truth" as people call it, does not exist. Atleast, not in an ultimate form. "Truth" has a different meaning to everyone, there is no ultimate truth, except for the fact that there is no ultimate truth...but after all, there is a contradiction in that statement as well... :-p
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/22/07 03:37 AM
Rinpoche's reply sounds consistent with the Buddist idea of self-negation, that one reaches a spiritual state of nirvanna by annihilating the individual personality.
I cannot imagine anything more terrifying
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 11/27/07 04:48 PM
Not deep enough, I see. Why do we have needs? Because that's the way the cookie crumbles and if you live in modern society it's next to impossible in a practical sense to escape them.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 12:35 PM
Drivel.
Why do Westerners fall for meaningless, pseudo-philosophical blather like this so readily?
Here's a hint: just because it is hard to understand does not mean it represents "wisdom."
Posted by: harlan
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 01:21 PM
'There is a common misconception that enlightenment involves the personality being extinguished. All realized beings are expected to be bland smiling clones of each other, with any deviation from this seen as an unfortunate lapse from "perfection." At the level of emptiness, of course, all enlightened beings are the same, but at the level of form they are infinite in their variety. But emptiness and form are not separate. In the realized state, personality continues to exist but it is empty.'
Quote:
Rinpoche's reply sounds consistent with the Buddist idea of self-negation, that one reaches a spiritual state of nirvanna by annihilating the individual personality.
I cannot imagine anything more terrifying
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 03:55 PM
It sounds like you are trying to correct what you feel is a misconception on my part, but I need you to clarify a few things for me.
1) What is a "realized being?"
2) What do "level of form" and "level of emptiness" mean?
3) What do you mean by an "empty" personality?
Please understand I am not being sarcastic here--I really need this cleared up because what you wrote makes no sense to me right now.
Posted by: harlan
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 04:14 PM
I don't understand the question. Perhaps more reading?
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/emptiness.html
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 04:37 PM
Interesting article.
However, I think the more we learn about brain, the more we see the mind/body distinction is a false one. What we call "mind" or "consciousness" is an epiphenomenon, a by-product of the chemical/electrical activity of the brain. In short their is no irreducible "essence."
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 05:22 PM
Quote:
Drivel.
Why do Westerners fall for meaningless, pseudo-philosophical blather like this so readily?
Here's a hint: just because it is hard to understand does not mean it represents "wisdom."
Whose to say you're so much wiser?
Where is your evidence for your assertions? Are you the kind of person you say we should be? Have you separated yourself from your "needs"? Are you enlightened? I'm not so sure. 
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 05:48 PM
I made no claims to wisdom, no specific assertions, told no one what kind of person they should be, said nothing about any "needs," and made no claims to enlightenment. What the @#$% are you talking about?
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 07:34 PM
Quote:
Drivel.
Why do Westerners fall for meaningless, pseudo-philosophical blather like this so readily?
Here's a hint: just because it is hard to understand does not mean it represents "wisdom."
See you shoot down other ideas with seemingly complete certainty as if you're the one with all the wisdom and knowing. Certainty by nature requires that you know all and so you imply that you do with such an attitude ven if it's subconscious and you don't mean to imply that.
Just because it's hard to understand doesn't mean it represents wisdom? same can be said to you. Don't be presumptuous.
Whose to say you're right? I mean yeah I may be very wrong and likely am but it's a valid perspective (the post I layed out above the one I'm quoting) same as yours.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 09:12 PM
Again, I never claimed to be all wise or all knowing, and there is no way you could infer I had such an attitude from anything I said. Rather than hurl unfounded accusations at me, maybe you should ask yourself why you are so defensive? Could it be that at some deep, dark, primal-scream level you suspect maybe I am right?
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/01/08 11:14 PM
I just have an issue with people who put off an attitude of certainty, no matter what their ideas are, when they can't possibly be certain. And calling someone's ideas drivel and meaningless psuedo philosophy that westerners have a habit of accepting (which is funny as easterners I could say, have a bad habit of accepting fairy tales which I could say is all of what Shinto is for example, or Daoism, now I'm not saying that is the case per se but just an example of my perception of you attitude) is not very nice.
I said we in modern society have unavoidable "needs" and and barriers to certain deep levels of thought/conciousness/growth that can not generally be bypassed, at least not easily. Not here in the hi speed, rushed, often very shallow and pressured American society and some others. We cannot live the Buddhist dream for example IMO. Sorry to antagonize you be I don't appreciate being insulted.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/02/08 12:18 AM
Quote:
What we call "mind" or "consciousness" is an epiphenomenon, a by-product of the chemical/electrical activity of the brain. In short their is no irreducible "essence."
Who mentioned anything about reducing? Maybe there is more than the sum of our parts. however, I think thats beside the point - all living things are limited by their perception. I think each see truth through the framed panes of a window.
but the interesting part that makes things fun is that perceptions evolve....hopefully widening the field of view along the way.
Posted by: EFRAIN
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/02/08 12:34 AM
Truth my friend is what you make of it...
My truth is not your truth, etc We all percieve differently. That doesnt make my/your truth right or wrong.
Thats why we learn and evolve into the person we are today.
So truth is just what you percieve as truth.
Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/02/08 01:00 AM
There is truth that is merely perception and not right or wrong but for reality to be possible there has to be objective truth. Basic common sense right there, if I believe that I won't drown if I stay under water for 10c minutes or so doesn't change the fact that I'll drown. Now changing circumstances changes the truth, for example it is true that if I have a snorkel on I'll not drown. But for every circumstance there is an objective truth. There has to be at least i na practical sense.
Posted by: EFRAIN
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/02/08 01:15 AM
Thanx for the back up lol Good Shyt there
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/02/08 02:26 AM
I did not insult you. I did not even address my comment to you. I cannot imagine why you have taken such personal offense at this.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/02/08 02:56 AM
Quote:
Drivel.
Why do Westerners fall for meaningless, pseudo-philosophical blather like this so readily?
Here's a hint: just because it is hard to understand does not mean it represents "wisdom."
This is the insult I'm talking about which I thought was directed toward my comment.
Anyway I think my origional "heated debate" was with Baumschrat and somehow I mistook them for you although at some point I had a disagreement with you leading to this.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Truth thread-jokogas might actually be right! - 01/02/08 02:58 AM
Quote:
Of course there is absolute truth.
Here is another example of that truth. 70 miles per hour is the speed limit on I-40 between Statesville and Winston-Salem, North Carolina. It is absolute truth because it's an irrefutable fact.
Be careful not to let those into mental masturbation attempt to have you believe that the sun is shining when the rain is pouring. Dig?
-John
Dang I hate to admit it but I think jkogas is the one on the right track here. 
Posted by: stormbringer
Re: Truth thread-jokogas might actually be right! - 01/17/08 07:40 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Of course there is absolute truth.
Here is another example of that truth. 70 miles per hour is the speed limit on I-40 between Statesville and Winston-Salem, North Carolina. It is absolute truth because it's an irrefutable fact.
Be careful not to let those into mental masturbation attempt to have you believe that the sun is shining when the rain is pouring. Dig?
-John
Dang I hate to admit it but I think jkogas is the one on the right track here.
I agree. Absolute truth depends upon unbiased fact: what really happened (no grey areas). Absolute truth becomes distorted because we filter information to reflect our personalities; the result is relative truth. Let's take jkogas' statement a step further. We have the Little Old Lady from Pasadena and Mario Andretti on that same stretch of interstate both going 70 mph. Granny thinks it's fast because she's used to 15 Mph in the left hand lane. On the other hand, Mario thinks it's rather slow because he's used to 100+. Who's truth is true?
For the second part: there's nothing wrong with having a positive outlook. Various studies indicate people with positive outlooks are generally happier and much more fun to be around. 
Posted by: MatsFondelius
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 01/18/08 04:51 AM
Hi,
The Truth is that the REAL Truth is the Truth about " Trueth " Love!!!
Mats Fondelius
Posted by: Vennificus
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 02/03/08 08:19 PM
so, stormy, your saying optimists are usually more optimistic XD.
Truth. What indeed is it indeed. You are asking two questions in one! What is truth? truth is that wich is. What is true? by our scientists and our theories, the universe does not exist and by that logic, everything we know is false, and thus nothing is true and truth does not exist. But I have lost faith in science (an oxymoron, to think of faith in science)
and will continue to beleive that it is very ture that I am...was just eating a rice crispy square,
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 02/04/08 10:05 AM
are you a hunter and gatherer now?, or do you drive a car to the temperature controled supermarket and purchase food with money you earned from a field of non physical labor specialization?
did you get vaccinated when you were a kid? how are those holding up for you?
or... did the science around you break-down as soon as you lost 'faith' in it? Thats the difference isn't it. science doesn't break down just because you stop recognizing it.
Posted by: Vennificus
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 02/04/08 02:07 PM
I go hunting and gathering from time to time. no i do not, Not technically, no, No they lost my card for vaccines, Haven't gotten one in a few years,
and I'm sorry, Science isn't wrong, scientists are. I haven't lost all faith in science, just some when they tell me one thing and then tell me something that totally contradicts the others. When I was told that there were only three types of matter? Plasma was classified as the fourth. When I was told that there were NINE planets in the solar system? They downgraded pluto so now we have eight (otherwise we'd have around 12). When I was told that computers weren't going to get much faster? Ps3. screens couldn't get thinner? OLED (organic light emmting diode, You can paper your wall with this stuff).
I don't take things at face value ever scince I was told the universe doesn't actually exist, and time was discrete not continuous.
So Scientists will continue to tell me that I am not in fact eating my muffin, I'm just gonna keep chewing on a large blob of nothing and carry on.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 02/05/08 06:37 PM
Have religious leaders, mystics, or gurus been more realiable than scientists?
Posted by: Vennificus
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 02/05/08 07:03 PM
Nope
Posted by: janxspirit
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/05/08 10:50 AM
Quote:
In one of the very earliest Western books about Tibetan Buddhism, entitled "The Message of the Tibetans," Arnaud Desjardin reported a conversation that he had had with Kalu Rinpoche.
He had asked Rinpoche the age-old question,
"What is Truth?"
Rinpoche replied,
"You live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality, and you are that reality, but you don’t know it. If you should ever wake up to that reality you would realize that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all."
Truth and "now" are not different.
Posted by: trevek
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/05/08 04:48 PM
The truth is the person you wake up beside.
Posted by: oldman
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/05/08 05:01 PM
Posted by: trevek
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/05/08 05:09 PM
Yep, sometimes the one you go to sleep beside isn't the one you wake up beside.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/05/08 05:16 PM
I can only say the truth is relative.
There can only be one absolute truth with regards to any situation. The question to ask is "who, if anyone, knows the absolute truth".
Take the classic example of a car accident. The police come and ask 5 witnesses a "what happened?". They all tell a different story, but neither are lying. They tell what they heard and what they saw - from thier angle and perspective.
Then you have the drivers who are not necessarily lying, but you have to discount atleast some of what they say like "i was only doing 25 mph".
The point is there are 5 "true stories" but only one real truth which will likely never be known.
Take this idea and apply it to events that were not witnessed by anyone and you certainly will never know. People will come up with theories and create models and do experiemnts that will "prove" thier idea of what happened - but then so can a dozen others.
So although again, there is an absolute truth, there's no way to know. That's whay we have faith.
You can put your faith in your favorite scientist and accept what he says as the truth. But it's still faith and not necessarily the truth.
Posted by: jude33
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/05/08 10:46 PM
Truth.
The sun exists
Jude
Posted by: oldman
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/05/08 11:33 PM
If it exploded 6 minutes ago you would not know until three minutes from now.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/06/08 07:29 AM
I'd first assume maybe we forgot to pay the electric bill.
Posted by: Ronin1966
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/06/08 09:39 AM
Hello Harlan:
<<What is Truth
Jeff holding up a little grain of sand from the beach beneath his feet...
Posted by: jude33
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/06/08 10:07 AM
Quote:
If it exploded 6 minutes ago you would not know until three minutes from now.
The Sun still exists. As the Earth rotated, and here got the rays, it got lighter.
If Proxima Centauri exploded a year ago I wouldnt know
untill 3.3 years from now.
Unless someone on the planet that spins around it, predicted it 2 years ago from now,
and if they had managed to invent a method that maintained the strength of radio waves for that distance,
and had phoned me 2 years ago from now and had let me know in advance of the star exploding
From the time of phoning the call would take a further 2.3 years from now to get here.
So although I could hear his voice in the future, eg 2.3 years time from now
He would have gone 4.3 years ago in the past when I hear his voice 2.3 years from now in the future.
and wouldnt be around anymore.
A voice from the past heard in the future.
Is that truth?
Jude
Posted by: jkdwarrior
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/08/08 01:25 AM
Quote:
Quote:
In one of the very earliest Western books about Tibetan Buddhism, entitled "The Message of the Tibetans," Arnaud Desjardin reported a conversation that he had had with Kalu Rinpoche.
He had asked Rinpoche the age-old question,
"What is Truth?"
Rinpoche replied,
"You live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality, and you are that reality, but you don’t know it. If you should ever wake up to that reality you would realize that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all."
Truth and "now" are not different.
Wow! Its great when you read something like this and understand completely. If only people learned to focus their attention outwards they would see whats really going on instead of having their baised interpretation of reality. We all seem to be worrying about the wrong things. What does this person think of me? Am I walking confidently? (By the way, if you ask yourself the second question, then I'm afraid the answer is no.) The only way to be yourself, is to not think of yourself.
Awareness of the present moment or lack of, is probably the only thing in the way of physical and mental peace.
As it is, I can only glimpse this peace, but I know what to aim for and because I've had many moments now during which I have been fully aware, learning through such experiences that it is the most important skill a person can learn for themselves and for the rest of the world. If you are always aware, then you are always the kind, considerate, peaceful, perfect being that you've always been. It breeds and enthusiasm for even the most mundane occurrences. Achieving full awareness should be a top priority in our lives (maybe my biased interpretation). So is awareness really to the to inner peace and wisdom? I believe so because I've seen it many times. To me, it's unmistakeable. I just wish everyone could learn to free themselves from their self inflicted turmoil.
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: What is 'Truth'? - 03/08/08 02:52 PM
"What is truth?" was a question on an English exam I took in my final year of high school.
I mean WTF???