Why is it?

Posted by: Kintama

Why is it? - 06/17/05 04:59 PM

Why is it?
Posted by: LastGURU

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 05:25 PM

Just because it is
Posted by: wolfscalissi

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 05:31 PM

Quote:

Why is it?




it as opposed to what? the mind is incapable of discerning anything without duality. it as opposed to not it. nope thats not it either!

^gassho^
Posted by: oldman

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 06:35 PM

Because it isn't.
Posted by: aigarius

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 07:20 PM

Ask not for reason of existance, because there is none.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 08:33 PM

Kintama -

As you know from Quantum theory, "it" exists only in relation to something else. It is because something else is well.....something else.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 08:49 PM

It is because we percieve it to be.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 09:01 PM

Quote by Bushi no ki -

Quote:

It is because we percieve it to be.




Also Quantum theory!
Posted by: MAGr

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 10:46 PM

I may be completely off topic but I think its more constructive to ask why it isnt. Its easy to ask why something is one way. Its harder to provide an alternative!
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 10:50 PM


This is giving me a headache.

Can we talk about something simpler? like why it is necessary all of the time to give seemingly intelligent answers (laced with discrete humour) to seemingly intelligent questions (with an attempt at humour)?

My headache is gone now.

Why is it?

Why not?

My headache is back!!!
Posted by: matt7_87

Re: Why is it? - 06/17/05 11:07 PM

Quote:

Ask not for reason of existance, because there is none.


There is a reason for the existence of the individual. We all have a purpose.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Why is it? - 06/18/05 02:30 AM

All answers are correct, because we are never wrong to ask and wonder 'Why'.

p.s. just for the record...
Quantum theory answers the question 'When is it.'
but 'Why' is still a valid question...there are no theories on that yet.
Posted by: aigarius

Re: Why is it? - 06/18/05 06:50 AM

Quote:

There is a reason for the existence of the individual. We all have a purpose.



If you say this, then you should also provide this reason or purpose.
All sciences only provide the answer to what exists and how it exists, but 'why' is in the realm of religion. I tend to think that existance of a reason or purpose for existance is simply a common misconception.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Why is it? - 06/18/05 09:04 AM

Kintama -

Good point about "when", although I feel that in the Quantum paradigm when and why are two sides of the same coin.

In other words, the when IS the why, in this case. Sorry for derailing!
Posted by: aigarius

Re: Why is it? - 06/18/05 04:10 PM

Quote:

In other words, the when IS the why, in this case. Sorry for derailing!




Derailing is simply about finding you way to another .... rails ... or to building ones of yourself.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Why is it? - 06/19/05 01:30 PM

"I may be completely off topic but I think its more constructive to ask why it isnt"

Yes, you could hardly be more off topic than to ask why it isn't when the topic is why it is.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Why is it? - 06/19/05 01:52 PM

I don't know.

Quote:

Why is it?


Posted by: BuDoc

Re: Why is it? - 06/19/05 10:01 PM

Because it must.

Page
Posted by: Foolsgold

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 12:35 AM

Quote:

I tend to think that existance of a reason or purpose for existance is simply a common misconception.




That is a religious claim, insofar as atheism can be called a religion. I suppose it would be closer to an anti-religious claim, but either way you're likely to insult somebody by telling them that their religion is a delusion. That happens to include me, so I'd appreciate if you'd be a bit less patronizing.

Thanks in advance.
Posted by: Foolsgold

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 12:37 AM

As to the original question, my best guess is; because otherwise it wouldn't be.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 04:34 AM

He/she did say "I tend to think..." so I wouldn't take offence.
Posted by: oldman

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 11:53 AM

Why is it?
Though the question asks "Why" and not "What" is it does not necessarily assume intent or purpose. Purpose could only be determined after coming to an understanding of what "it" is. Take for example a Nutcracker. "It" the Nutcracker has no purpose. "It" the Nutcracker just exists. "It" was created for a purpose and yet "has" no purpose in and of itself.. The purpose resides in the mind of the Nutcracker Maker / User. So you can say "what" it is and "that" it is though the why is seperate from it's existance. The fact that it is, is not it’s purpose. I say this knowing that there are people that might say the Nutcracker doesnt really exist, but thats a different point.

In determining what something is you can try to define it by attributes or attributes it is lacking. Those two ways can be reffered to as Via positva./ Via affirma or the converse the Via negativa. In other words you are saying it is this or it is not that. So in regards to Kintama’s question he is working from the assumption that "it" is. If "it" is, then his question also implies that there is an isn’t. Whatever "isn't" "is".

In spiritual traditions those different approaches are represented by the Kataphatic and Apophatic traditions. The two approaches can be clarified.


Quote:

In all traditions there is a way of viewing spirituality that emphasizes the importance of images, symbols, and sensations. This kind of spirituality, classically known as kataphatic, has always been the most popular. In it one seeks deeper realization of truth through visions, feelings, imagery, words, and other sensate or symbolic forms of experience.

The second way emphasizes the truth that lies behind, beyond, or hidden within all sensory or intellectual representations. This is known as the apophatic way. Evangelical and charismatic Christianity, popular Hinduism, and much of Tantric Buddhism represent markedly kataphatic spiritualities. At the other extreme, one might find the Christian mysticism of John of the Cross and Meister Eckhart, the silence of Quaker Meeting, and the emptiness of Zen Buddhism, which are distinctly apophatic spiritualities.


Posted by: harlan

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 12:07 PM

Duality. When 'it is' is experienced, no matter the path, there is no more duality. All paths become one path. The Middle Road.
Posted by: oldman

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 12:21 PM

When my dog catches her tail, she sits. She is tired, but content.
Posted by: Foolsgold

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 05:15 PM

Quote:

When my dog catches her tail, she sits. She is tired, but content.




So...contentment is possible when purpose is fulfilled? That seems like the logical conclusion, but how does that tie into what harlan said?

nenipp- You may be right, I might just be too sensitive. On the other hand, I might be right, and by saying "I think" or "I believe" he was really saying "I perceive that all religions are the result of misconception." Since perception is reality (generally speaking, if you need me to clarify, just ask), it becomes a statement of fact (although only from his point of view).

However, this is no different from the norm. For instance, I could commit the same offense by saying "I am a Christian", because I am in effect saying "I perceive that it is superior to other religions" (I chose my words carefully, I do not believe that every other religion is inherently false, though some would obviously have to be).

All that said, I suppose that I was responded hastily, and I apologize.
Posted by: oldman

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 06:28 PM

FG,
I think my first point was kintama's question was not automatically theological. I did have another comment after Harlans post which was Does Dualism begin when the question is ask or when one tries to answer it?.I had edited that earlier.

I think the dog is a metaphor for spiritual practice and not neccisariy about comtentment through accomplishing a specifc purpose. Thoughtfull practitioners whether eastern or western will experience similar things. The process of spiritual formation is similar in different faith even though doctrines and methodologies differ. It is even similar in natural human development and can be completly secular. I think that is what harlan might be reffering in part to as the middle way. I'm the dog. In my exercise of faith I persue Truth. At times I seem to catch it and get a taste of it. When I get up to chase the cat I forget about my tail. How could my pursuit not seem foolish to some people. Sometime it seems like foolishness to me.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 10:48 PM

I was thinking about the dog reply ('is oldman calling me a dog, making an analogy, or what?' ).

The Middle Way, refers to the Buddhist way, but to me it is simply being without extremes in doctrine, method or view.

Too much talk...practice!
Posted by: LastGURU

Re: Why is it? - 06/23/05 11:45 PM

Quote:

For instance, I could commit the same offense by saying "I am a Christian"



Usually that is not an offence, but a trace of a conscious, unconsciuos or forced choice.
Quote:

because I am in effect saying "I perceive that it is superior to other religions" (I chose my words carefully, I do not believe that every other religion is inherently false, though some would obviously have to be).



There is no superior religion. That also mean that except some obviously non-true sects, most of religions are really much like one another, sharing common truths. Moreover, I think that if you say that Christianity is superior to other religions you do not offense other religions, but rather Christianity. I might be wrong, but I think that being proud of being the one who has picked the right religion and feeling superior to others because of that is not very Christian.

(I hope I will not call religios flame wars upon me, I meant no offense by this post)
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Why is it? - 06/24/05 12:32 AM

kindof like the "What's the best Martial Arts?" question right? and what is the usual response? "The best MA is the one you make work for you."

on topic: If you take the question "Why is it" literally, you end up 'chasing your own tail' trying to figure out the conclusion of an equally valid argument of Science vs. Theology.
Science by definition does not rule out any possibility until proven with demonstratable predictability...it's open ended-it gives the proof but creates more questions.
Theology, gives all the answers without the proof.
Both are based on a belief of one sort or another.

Whatever your current beliefs are, all of us are searching... we all need to know "Why is it". I think having the question answered will mean nothing to a person who has not asked.
Navigating the question is profoundly more important than arriving at the answer. Whether you are talking nature or god(s), it's what we are made to do....to improve ourselves by asking 'Why is it'. Isn't that what we have in common?
Posted by: oldman

Re: Why is it? - 06/24/05 09:36 AM

As I feel we are on the edge of a potentialy slippery slope here I 'm choosing to curtail the discussion for the time being... though not without having the last word. There are challenges in moderating this forum in particular. Take Zen for example. There are those that would say that it is a religion and others that consider it a philosophy. And that is among practicing zenists. So here we are on a board that has an injunction on religious dialoge. As a Moderator it could appear that I'm skrewed from the "git go", though it don't really feel that. Occaisionally questions on meaning ,pupose or "Why" come up. Those things can be hard to address without some use of spiritual language. I am willing to be tollerant as long as the language not only explains ones personal position or point but also informs and edifies others.

When talking about meditation or meaning they are potentially very personal an volitale topics. When we present our position or ideas they make senes to us because we have formed the opinion. We might not intend to offend yet a person can experience our words as a slight. Stuff happens.

I feel we tackle important ideas and issues on our little corner of the site. Lets do the best we can to express our respect and affection.