to meat or not to meat

Ok, lets dicuss vegetarianism. The first grave precept says Affirm life, do not kill. if we choose to continue to dwell on this plane we must kill in order to sustain ourselves. here lies the rub. even if you are a vegetarian you are taking life to sustain your self the pesticides used on the plants killed the bugs, the land cleared to plant the food took homes and likely lives from small animals etc. If you still eat meat then we can stop right there. don't get me wrong I'm not advocating either way I just want to hear what you have to say. I'm going to post a couple of threads from enlightened beings that shed light to both sides.
Cheri Hubers take which is very heart wrenching. I sat at a seshin with her and she is an amazing practitioner

one less act of violence (this is a link, a long read. at least read the last paragraph or two if nothing else. these hit home the hardest)

next is Masao Abe an really amazing comparative religions philosopher and Buddhist by choice It is about compassion he said

"It is the law of the Buddha," he said, "not to destroy life. If so, one cannot eat. The notion that it is justifiable to kill plants but not animals is an illusion of (warning big word ahead!) anthropocentrism"*

*n : an inclination to evaluate reality exclusively in terms of human values*

"but if we do not eat, we destroy ourselves, still violating the Buddhist law. Thus the significance of the gassho, the pressing together of the palms,before partaking of a meal.One destroys life so as not to destroy life, but one does so only at the ultimate heartfelt limit." (from the text of Masao Abe a Zen Life of Dialogue)

so there you are some seriously tough thinking to do. I myself fall closer to Cheri Hubers side from an anger standpoint. realizing that by taking small steps in our own eating habits we could really make a huge change in all of this. thank you for your consideration of this topic

^gassho^

here is my philosophy not based on any formal knowledge of this debate...

Where would life on earth be without a food chain? there would be no competion and therefore no progress through the eons.
If animals eating plants and other animals is good enough for animals, then why isn't it good enough for us? is it because we consider ourselves 'better' than an animal? We would need ego for that position wouldn't we?

I think the question happens to also be the aspect that nature didn't acount for...mass production. We can't all be hunters and gatherers to feed everyone. and we can't keep mass-producing until all of the food resources and land is depleted...I'm afraid science is going to have to eventually bail us out of this problem too. This discussion becomes non applicable when we start taking pills for dinner. could be a hundred years from now or more...but it has to be. Enjoy the raw red cattle-farm mass-processed meat now while it lasts.

By the way, an important but brief political message: Africa needs food and medicine more than any other time in history. They are dying at the rate of 1 tsumami per month. They probably aren't thinking too zen about things. I mention this not to make anyone feel guilty, just to put the topic in perspective.

Save a cow,eat a PETA.

I have to say that I see humans as mammals, we are omnivorous and we have a taste for animal flesh. We are not above or exempt from our instincts.

Farming animals for slaughter is not pleasant, but with the worlds spiraling overpopulation it is necessary to sustain us all as we balance on this little rock.

If everyone became vegetarian, the destruction of natural habitat to accomodate the increased need for crop farming would be as detrimental as keeping things as they are, especialy now that geneticaly engineered crops/HYV's are frowned upon, and we want more organic (inneficient) fruit and veg. Not to mention all the livestock being slaughtered for absolutely no purpose and burned on a pyre of our new found piety.

Like most/all environmental problems, its source can be found in overpopulation. Orphanages/childrens homes are full, yet so are maternity wards. I will stop now for fear of getting too political.

'There is room on earth for all gods creatures- right next to the mashed potatoes' (Advert for a steakhouse)

If a cow is killed, it will give food to a whole bunch of people, whereas for one vegetarian meal a whole bunch of plants would have to be killed, right?
This is really a hard one.
I eat both animals and plants, I'm a regular monster!
On the other hand, who knows how many times I'v been eaten myself, if the reincarnation theory is anything to go by...

Keep us buzy, wolfie

P.E.T.A.- People. Eating Tasty Animals

Well, I am conflicted on this one. Did Buddha mean don't eat meat, don't kill anything sentient, don't kill any kind of animal (bugs to people?), or perhaps did he mean don't make war? I need some theologians to battle this out and to tell me.

Until then, I will continue to eat meat, being grateful to my animal brothers for their sacrifice so that I may grow.

I personally don't care what buddha wanted us to do,I'm a carnivore!

I would hope that you're an omnivore, SANCHIN. I doubt that being a carnivore you would get the proper dietary needs. Unless, of course, you did what other true carnivores do and eat the stomachs of your prey. MMMMM, haggis.

As for being a vegetarian, my sister has been one for a couple of years. She does it for certain reasons(mainly animal welfare/treatment), and I support her in that. I've tried many "vegetarian" foods, and most of them aren't bad. I would become a vegetarian for her reasons as well, if it weren't for turkeys, and pigs, and shrimp, and crabs, and chickens...

Cognitive dissonance or not, I like meat.

I guess I just eat whatever I get my hands on. I have no problem with vegitarians as long as they don't nag me about eating meat.

Human beings are designed to eat meat and veggies (omnivores).
We have teeth that are designed to rip and tear flesh as well as grind up plant matter.
We have a digestive system designed to digest and utilize proteins and nutrients found in meat and veggies.

Who am I to go against evolution/God's design/insert whatever religious theory for our existence here.

Now stop your philosophizing and pass the fried chicken

'Meat is Murder, and murder tastes good '

Dennis Leary.

"...bring me the whole cow, I'll carve off what I want and RIDE the rest home....BAM BADDA-BOM BA BA BA" -Dennis Leary

LOL

But only if its a cow that smokes

'But i have a right to life.'
'I'M WEARING YOUR BROTHER!- GET BACK IN THE LINE!'

JoelM, haggis-loving vegetarian, mon frere

It doesn't seem right to eat meat - especially meat from commercial farms - but we need meat. We should all eat free range meat, and less of it.

I agree...but unfortunately there are no regulations in the US that say they must put a big 'ol sticker on the meat saying 'mass-murdered beef' vs 'free range meat'. Maybe it's different in Canada. Can we buy free range beef from Canada over the internet?... you know, like we do with meds?

I don't trust the regulations in Canada either. I drive out to the Interior once in a while to buy meat, and I freeze it. It's a five hour drive, but my uncle lives out there and he knows where the meat is coming from. Being considerate of the world can be a pain in the a$$.
hmmm... would you really want to buy free range meat over the internet???

Free range opens up another can of worms IMO. If an animal is happy wandering around a natural habitat, eating good food and feeling the sun on its face, is it not a greater cruelty to take its life, than to kill an animal kept in miserable conditions with no quality of life to begin with. Farmed cattle are released from bondage, free range ripped from their homes. Free range habitat, is created at the expense of forest, marshland, woodland, fenland etc. thus having a negative impact on the bio-diversity of the ecosystem it affects. (livestock farming lead to extinction of the wolf in Britain, but the cattle were well cared for)

Eating a creature always causes suffering, free range should not ease your concience, accepting the nature of the act is the only peace.

Thats true Cord, good point. how is it different? There are probably tons of heatbreak scenarios. another extreme would be a little girl on the farm, feeding the chickens everyday and giving names like 'prissy' to them that she has made comfy nests and a little hat for...2 months later and 1000 miles away sits a boy eating shake-n-baked nuggets, bites halfway thru a tiny blue hat.

I think the phrase 'ignorance is bliss' was specifically created for these types of scenarios.

I love meat, I love the way it tastes, the way it smells, the way it looks, and I would give it up if someone gave me a good enough reason. But they havent. Humans are omnivors and someone said before not above our instincts. I go hunting, I eat what I hunt, If I manage to kill all I can eat within ten minutes I am not going to continue hunting, because killing is not a sport, but lets put things in perspective people.

All you European vegetarians out there listen to this:
Your farms, that produce the plants that you feed off to save the animals and to be "humane" are subsidised by the EU. Why? because agricultural goods are getting cheaper and cheaper and mais oui, we have to sustain our industrial organisation. But to what expense? The welfare of all African nations, why? because their imports which should be and are cheaper are being replaced by EU overproduction, and EU produces about twice as much food as is consumed, the rest is thrown in the sea. Why? so that the price remains low, instead of sending the plants to the dying people of Africa. So there is your vegeterianism. So the result is this, because you are eating vegetables, you are supporting the very product that is destroying Africa, YOU are part of the link that causes 30,000 children a DAY to die in Africa.
So lets get our priorities straight!
Forget vegetarianism, instead of being against people who eat meat, you should be against people who subsidize plants!

P.S. Have you guys heard of fruitarians, apparently there are people who not only will they not eat meat but who will not eat cooked plants (because you are killing them) and not only that but they will only eat fruit and vegetables that have fallen off (as opposed to picked off).
These people are a symptom of modern society and over-affluence!

huh? the long-term solution has NOTHING to do with peace, development and leadership in the continent? It all comes down to vegitarians, vegans and fruitarians in Europe? lol

Thats a first. Kinda like blaming global warming on the aids quilt.

I heard this story. In my house it went "Eat everything on your plate because somewhere in Africa is a hungry child." My reply was "Well, I hate broccoli...send it to them."

Seemed like a reasonable reply. One smack later, and a lesson in economics did nothing to ease hunger in Africa or persuade me that suffering broccoli would change things.

Yes! Fruitarians are to blame! lol
Obviously not, I was making a mock/serious comment on how we should all get our priorities straight.
I am not saying that animal rights should not be looked after, but to tell people that its wrong to eat meat should be a lot lower on people's list of things to protest about.
And that maybe people should be more informed on things that they are protesting about, rather than just follow someone else's because they mayde a "good point".
And maybe if people concentrated their efforts, at least one thing would get sorted rather than fighting on 100 different fronts.

What is more outrageous?
1. We are pumping chickens with hormones to make them fatter and then eating them.

2.That X government (no names) said to impoverished-due-to-war country Y "we will give you $500 million of aid, if you buy from us $700 million worth of guns!" so basically give us all the money that is supposed to go to your people, an extra $200 million, and we will give you guns to make you even more miserable!

And as far as global warming is concerned, I alive in the UK and I have seen no evidence of warming whatsoever!

I think this thread has veered far enough off course.

Come on guys, Meditation/Zen, not Politics/Global Warming.

Sorry, my bad!

I am not at all familiar with the concepts of Zen, but as I understand it, it is to be a better person, then everyone does what they can to achieve that.
If you are a better person through being a vegetarian, then thats great.
IMO your kindness is best diverted elsewhere.

Cord-"Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all".

I'll take that over "ignorance is bliss" any day.

I never thought that way about free range (killing happy animals). I just can't win. My body needs meat. I tried to eat no meat, and I became unwillingly underweight. I've tried to eat less meat, and now I might be iron-deficient. I have to have a blood test for anaemia today.
Why does eating seafood seem more acceptable than eating farm meat? If this is too un-zen-like, which I'm sure it is, please let me know.

Thank you all for your insightful and sometimes insensitive commentary. The only point of this thread was to ask how you felt. not to make you change your mind. we are each responsible for our own actions. awareness of these actions is what we must have in order to make clear and informed choices. I would ask you do not think"the Buddha said...so I should..." do not think "well science says that humans are omnivores....so blah blah." ask your self. find the peace with your answer within yourself. do not take refuge in someone elses answer. science is a theory, do you understand?. Zen Buddhism is a philosophydo you see? do not let any one tell you what the flower smells like. of what value is this? smell the flower for yourself. then and only then will you know the truth. thank you again for indulging this thread.

^gassho^

my fault for 'steering' off 'course'... (double pun!)

my conclusion of the 'meat' meets Zen question: I am an eater of living things. to exclude some and include others is judging. It's anything or nothing...in between seems hypocritical.

Quote:

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I agree...but unfortunately there are no regulations in the US that say they must put a big 'ol sticker on the meat saying 'mass-murdered beef' vs 'free range meat'. Maybe it's different in Canada. Can we buy free range beef from Canada over the internet?... you know, like we do with meds?

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In NZ ALL our meat is free-range.

The cattle and sheep eat grass naturally and are not raised on feedlots. The meat has more flavour than grain fed animals and is often more tender as it does not have the high stress levels associated with unnatural living as the feedlot stuff has.

Buy NZ meat products! It's naturally raised by farmers like myself, its GE free and does not have BSE.

I have a paddock full of lovely steers that are nearly ready to go off to become export grade meat....