Daily Zen: New Week
Posted by: harlan
Daily Zen: New Week - 05/29/05 10:35 PM
(Helping out Joel, whois gone for a day or two. Day 8 Pickle week, or day 1...sorry if I am off.)
To be uncertain is to be uncomfortable,
but to be certain is to be ridiculous.
Chinese proverb
Posted by: harlan
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/29/05 10:42 PM
I'll jump in first.
At my desk, posted above my computer, I have had a reminder to myself for years. "Don't get comfortable." To me, it is a warning that the person who gets comfortable, in the chair, in the job, in the life...is one who has grown roots. One should be like Fudoshin...constantly balancing on the ball.
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/30/05 12:16 AM
Quote:
To be uncertain is to be uncomfortable,
but to be certain is to be ridiculous.
Using strict logic rules, that statement can be used to form the concluding truism:
To be comfortable is rediculous.
I disagree with this philosophy. There are things that I am certain about which give me comfort. I am certain I have control over the decisions I make during my life. I am certain that there is no eternal life other than that which continues thru my children, loved ones and strangers I have helped - this gives me comfort equal to or greater than any hope faith. I am certain that I don't know everything, and that gives me tremendous comfort knowing there is always more which allows me to adapt my certainties.
This proverb is simply too absolute for it to be true for me. There are already too many absolutes in the world...of this, I am certain and uncomfortable.
p.s. often times I can be comfortably uncertain and just plain rediculous all at once. 
Posted by: ButterflyPalm
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/30/05 12:16 AM
Could you put in the chinese version? this proverb do not ring a bell.
My reply is with the following English one, which in a certain context is applicable to the MA.
'Ignorance is bliss,
A little knowledge is dangerous'
The above is not 'Zenny' enough?
Sorry, my chair seems rather uncomfortable this morning.
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/30/05 12:23 AM
Uncertainty can be an uncomfortable feeling, but it is the uncomfortableness that makes us feel alive. 100% certainty in life is a silly notion to entertain. The only certainties in life are death and taxes.
Posted by: wolfscalissi
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/30/05 12:40 AM
Quote:
Uncertainty can be an uncomfortable feeling, but it is the uncomfortableness that makes us feel alive. 100% certainty in life is a silly notion to entertain. The only certainties in life are death and taxes.
well if the zen part of this forum is here even half of that statement is in question. uncomfortable? I know is the most dangerous thing you can say. do not close the door on all possibilities. 2+2=4 you only KNOW the sign post.
^gassho^
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/30/05 02:55 AM
I know... I DON'T know :P
Posted by: harlan
Re: Daily Zen: New Week Note - 05/30/05 09:02 AM
The quote comes from the Daily Zen Calender, is written in English (no chinese version included), and seems to be like many of the sayings....not in the zen tradition. Guess you have to be zen to appreciate it.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/30/05 10:24 AM
I'm uncertain but not uncomfortable,
I am certainly rediculous..
..your proverb may be chinese, but is it zen?
Posted by: Cord
Re: Daily Zen: New Week - 05/30/05 11:13 AM
To be uncomfortable with uncertainty ridiculous is,
Certain of this I am.
Thrive on the unexpected we do, brings out our true nature it does.
Posted by: harlan
Day two - 05/30/05 10:46 PM
You can't make a date with enlightenment.
-Shunryu Suzuki
"It cannot come to pass that the fruit of a deed well-done by the body, speech, and thought should have for a result that which is unpleasant, hateful or distasteful. But that it should be otherwise is quite possible." from the pali text The Anguttara (credit to The Wanderling)
Right Understanding
Right Thoughts
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration
tho you may not dictate the timeline, with these you may walk the path.
^gassho^
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day two - 05/31/05 07:17 AM
It is a perception/experience you can't nail down, not in time or place, because it is groundless and has no tangible point. You can take the slow road, the eightfold path, and still not 'get there' in the end. (Of course, you will be a better person...just no guarantees.)
Posted by: JoelM
Day 3 - 06/01/05 12:01 AM
Thank you for the help, harlan
If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete.
-Jack Kornfield
Holding yourself to a higher standard than anyone else is a lofty ideal, but isn't worth killing yourself for.
On the flip side of that, having too much compassion for yourself just makes you a drain on societies resources and a waste of perfectly good oxygen (and often a waste of perfectly good alcohol).
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 3 - 06/01/05 06:45 AM
awareness of your own suffering is essential to helping others with theirs.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 3 - 06/01/05 07:09 AM
To me, compassion is a form of love. Like the old saying, you have to learn to love yourself before you can truly love another.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 3 - 06/01/05 10:29 AM
Ugh, harlan has spoken well, although it sounds like (and is) a kliche' it is very literally true!
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 3 - 06/01/05 10:33 AM
Probably the hardest challenge for all the MA types...learning to be soft.
This is something we all might benifit from...softening. sitting behind these keyboards we create broad and powerfull strokes, if it can make us so strong because we feel untouchable, could we not also allow ourselves to be more vunerable? how would we speak to eachother if we were sitting face to face? yes, the link below is me.
^gassho^ [image]http://newbuddhist.com/forum/image.php?u=186&dateline=1117600948[image]
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 3 - 06/01/05 11:24 AM
My english is even worse spoken than written, I doubt you'd understand a word I say, if we were sitting face to face..
Posted by: JoelM
Day 4 - 06/01/05 11:59 PM
Seeing misery in views and opinions, without adopting any, I found inner peace and freedom. One who is free does not hold to views or dispute opinions. For a sage there is no higher, lower, nor equal, no places in which the mind can stick. But those who grasp after views and opinions only wander about the world annoying people.
-The Sutta Nipata
Posted by: Cord
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 05:08 AM
Aha! the source of your old signature Joel
Nice idea, used as an extreme to promote the value of an open mind I think it works well. As a literal goal I think it would lead to a global chaos!
Most of the great developments in the world have come from the seed of opinion.
Einstein's work is all based on theory (opinion)
Someone was once of the opinion that the wheel could be a useful thing.
MA are the physical manifestation of opinions on the best way to fight
The list goes on. If we all floated about not giving a monkeys one way or the other, It would be like living in a cheech and chong movie!
Of course it was someones opinion that the atom bomb was a good idea.....
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 07:11 AM
Einstein, and other scientists, have written some interesting things about their work that are out-and-out spiritual. I don't have anything handy...probably make a better seperate thread.
Anyway, it doesn't say don't think, or have ideas, and it doesn't negate the physical/material aspect of fruition of ideas. It is referring to the 'inner' landscape...of being attached.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 07:56 AM
what's so wrong with annoying people?
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 08:00 AM
harlan, you're posting wisely again.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 08:22 AM
I'm interviewing for the position of side-kick...if you're interested in applying.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 08:56 AM
I'm afraid I don't know what a side-kick is (I'm a foreigner, you know), but I must say I am thinking of joining the harlan fan-club.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 09:14 AM
I'm a little better at the front kick harlan, got an opening for that?;)
Has anybody thought about the fact that this quote is only a person's opinion?
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 09:52 AM
Quote:
I'm a little better at the front kick harlan, got an opening for that?;)
Too risque to even go there.
Quote:
Has anybody thought about the fact that this quote is only a person's opinion?
Ummm...are you referring to the Sutta Nipata?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/
Nenipp: Gosh...fan-club? 
Beware mara.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 10:02 AM
Yes, I am referring to the Sutta Nipata. Is it suppose to be taken as fact? I do not mean that as sarcasm, just that I am not a follower of Buddhism so I take these things as only opinion. If you meant that in another way, please let me know.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 10:16 AM
Do you take the Bible as fact? Or the Koran? Etc.
I am neither zen, nor Buddhist, but I really like this thread that you have started because it makes me...think!
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 10:20 AM
lol...Joel, that was the most ingenious and devious thing I've seen you post. If people give their opinion agreeing/disagreeing on the Sutta Nipata quote, then that illustrates they haven't understood it.
You never picked the legs off of grasshoppers when you were young did you? kidding. don't answer that.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 11:18 AM
Harlan, if I took The Bible or Koran as fact, I would not be disposed to take the Sutta Nipata as fact, now would I?
Kintama, not sure if ingenious and devious is a good or bad thing (I'll take it as a compliment anyways
), just trying to spur some discussion. I agree that agreeing with the quote is pointless. But what is the alternate? To understand? To know?
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 11:27 AM
The problem with zen types...is that they are too darn cryptic and devious. Fun on our part can come across as elitist, or as Budoc says 'hierarchical'.
No one should be scared off from voicing a reply on some Canon.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 11:38 AM
Quote:
No one should be scared off from voicing a reply on some Canon.
You hear that, all you Zen lurkers?
That's right, I see you out there, reading the posts and walking away. Get your butts in here and talk!!
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 11:41 AM
I love the play of light on water.
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 11:43 AM
Thats a good point harlan...you've justified me continuing to make an ass of myself in the name of learning!
Quote:
I love the play of light on water.
...or is it the play of water in light?
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 11:47 AM
Kintama, hard to know when you are in jest. Refer to quote for day3.
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 12:13 PM
I am compassionate to myself... but not at the expense of seeing my limitations. sometimes I'm an goof, but I forgive myself.
about the day 4: I don't see anything negative with seeing and understanding a point of view or opinion and then either calling it your own or respectfully commenting on it...hey, isn't that called a 'forum' ?
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 4 - 06/02/05 12:31 PM
"Has anybody thought about the fact that this quote is only a person's opinion?"
What??? A paradox in a zen forum, we can't have that, now can we
My head's been hurting the last few days.
"When we have a toothache we complain and tell everyone who will listen, so now today when your toohache is gone will you throw a party to celebrate your non-toothache?" Tich Nhat Hahn
^gassho^
Posted by: JoelM
Day 5 - 06/03/05 02:05 AM
Don't be consistent, but be simply true.
-Oliver Wendell holmes
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 5 - 06/03/05 04:09 AM
The first word that comes to mind: ADAPT!
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 5 - 06/03/05 08:17 AM
Are they mutually exclusive, can't we be consistently true (by which I understand as honest [at least to ourselves] as we can)?
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: Day 5 - 06/04/05 01:46 AM
Day 6
Empty, empty!
Happy, happy!
-Ajahn Jumnien
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 5 - 06/04/05 06:08 AM
I am pleased to say, that I have no thoughts on that one, sanchin.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 5 - 06/04/05 10:09 AM
What on earth did he empty to become that happy?
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 5 - 06/04/05 08:21 PM
His Bucket!
Quote:
What on earth did he empty to become that happy?
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 5.75 - 06/04/05 11:43 PM
That was Zen, this is Tao...
"In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired. In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped." - Lao Tsu
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: Day 5.75 - 06/05/05 11:11 PM
Much of what we learn has no real meaning or value to anyone outside of ourselves. Dropping something seems to mean that we discard theories and bits of information we don't find to be practical wisdom.
Posted by: JoelM
Day 7 - 06/06/05 01:43 AM
The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks.
-Tennessee Williams
Over time, the most insignificant seeming things will just "take over". The violets have "broken" the rocks because they grew in small cracks and forced them open.
The seed of enlightenment, when planted in the rock hard mind of a completely unenlightened person, will grow and "break the rocks" if given the proper nourishment.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 7 - 06/06/05 07:45 AM
Violets are excellent in tamashiwari.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 7 - 06/06/05 10:11 AM
One of my favorite childhood memories is of flowers in the city. Lily of the Valley, Buttercups and wild Violets, breaking through the tar and cement. Flowering despite adversity.
Kinda gives you...hope.
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 7 - 06/06/05 10:26 AM
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 7 - 06/06/05 10:28 AM
Always giving.
Thank you, Kintama. I think you will be a good karate teacher someday.
Posted by: JoelM
Day 8 - 06/07/05 01:05 AM
Life is like an earthen pot. Only when it is shattered does it manifest its emptiness.
-Vegetable Root Discourse
Our life is so full of what we do, that only when we die do the people around us truly understand how short life is.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Day 8 - 06/07/05 04:59 AM
Surely it depends on if you have placed things in the pot along the way? If positive actions and touching peoples lives for the good, place gold coins in the pot, then when shattered, people can see the treasure that was held within.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 8 - 06/07/05 06:38 AM
Life's emptiness is quite obvious at any time, if only you care to take a good look...
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 8 - 06/07/05 09:49 AM
Day 8:
Only when we lose our preconceived view, opinions and bias about things can we really start to flower our realization.
Harlan - very kind words. Who knows what I'll do when I grow up...if ever at all. Is it possible to be responsible enough to maintain a dojo, serious enough to teach solid self-defense in Art form, while being childish enough to have fun?
Tieing-in back to topic:
Human affairs are like a chess-game: only those who do
not take it seriously can be called good players.
Posted by: JoelM
Day 9 - 06/08/05 01:25 AM
For twelve years Naropa followed the great Indian sage Tilopa. Tilopa would say, "If you fetch me soap from the kitchen, then I might teach you." Naropa would sneak in the kitchen, suffer a terrible beating at the hands of the kitchen staff, but emerge triumphant with the cup of soup. But Tilopa would only say, "I want another cup, go and fetch it."
This kind of incident occurred over and over and over again, until Naropa's sense of yearning for the teachings reached a crescendo. At that moment Tilopa gave Naropa the most profound initiation into the truth-he took off his sandal and slapped Naropa in the face. Suddenly that was it; there was nothing more Naropa needed.
-Tibetan Mondo
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 9 - 06/08/05 12:04 PM
You should follow your teacher blindly and believe all the crap he loads on you, because even if it doesn't seem so at the moment, it will eventually lead you to your goal.
I bet some lazy pseudo-guru made that story up, so that he could keep using his students!
That certainly wasn't my cup of tea (or soap)
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 9 - 06/08/05 01:15 PM
I have to admit, I don't really see the wisdom of that.
most probable ending:
"there was nothing more Naropa needed...so he left, never to return."
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Day 9 - 06/08/05 01:52 PM
None of us has reached enlightenment (that I know of), so none of us knows if the 12 years following Tilopa was worth it for Naropa. Maybe this was the only way Naropa could reach the truth.
I don't think this story shoudld bring a criticism of Tilopa, who was trying to teach Naropa, but a criticism of Naropa, who took so long to figure it out. He recieved beatings by kitchen staff for 12 years, but it only took 1 hit from Tilopa?? Maybe Naropa was looking in the wrong direction.
Or maybe I'm confused as everybody else on this one.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Day 9 - 06/09/05 12:39 AM
You guys and girls get another 24 on day 9.
I want to hear something, even if you don't get it, say so.
Posted by: LastGURU
Re: Day 9 - 06/09/05 01:26 AM
Quote:
You guys and girls get another 24 on day 9.
I want to hear something, even if you don't get it, say so.
The story was great, it really was. i had a big and happy smile on my face after reading it. As to understanding, the story seemed perfectly understandable for me, but i cannot explain that kind of understanding properly in words... One thing that I did not however understand is why did it take Naropa so much time to understand his teacher.
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 9 - 06/09/05 04:15 AM
Yeah, I understood it too, but I can't explain it either!
Hey, this is easy, why haven't I thought of this
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 9 - 06/09/05 03:12 PM
I think it was suppossed to symbolize the actual transmission of enlightenment from teacher to student somehow... but it means as much to me as imagining the same scene performed by the Three Stooges.
In any event, I'd need it explained to me...but since everyone who 'knows' is all of a sudden mysteriously lost for words... I might never know until I feel the need to research it more myself. and I could live with that.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Day 9 - 06/09/05 06:33 PM
Trust not dishonest gurus. Craving for soup, pain will bring. Steal their own soup they should.Take the hint before 12 years pass you should.
Posted by: LastGURU
Re: Day 9 - 06/10/05 06:18 AM
Quote:
Trust not dishonest gurus. Craving for soup, pain will bring. Steal their own soup they should.Take the hint before 12 years pass you should.
Why think you, dishonest they are? nothing to teach if even have they, dishonest makes them not. Formally, did not accept the apprentice, the guru has. Find your own way, each of us should. Enlightened, understand this story, you will. Reading more koans you, i suggest.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Day 9 - 06/10/05 08:19 AM
Encourage the stealing of soup he did. Insist he go to the restaurant and pay he should. Recieving stolen goods an offence it is.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Day 9 - 06/10/05 10:27 AM
Confused I am. Hurting my brain is.
Oi
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Day 9 - 06/10/05 10:43 AM
What is it, speak like
Yoda day? a break, give me.
Quote:
You guys and girls get another 24 on day 9.
I want to hear something, even if you don't get it, say so.
"Na" in Tibetan means "pain," "ro" means "killing" and "pa" makes the word a noun. he was hit in the head by Tilopa to see if he really was a pain killer and since, upon hitting naropa, tilopa experienced no pain, transmission of the dharma was possible. hows that for throwing rocks at the moon?
^gassho^
Posted by: LastGURU
Re: Day 9 - 06/10/05 08:30 PM
Quote:
Encourage the stealing of soup he did. Insist he go to the restaurant and pay he should. Recieving stolen goods an offence it is.
Encourage nothing, he did. Hoping taught Tao can be, stupid Naropa had. Asking you from the fifth floor to jump, suicide encourager, makes me not.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 9 - 06/10/05 09:50 PM
Poor Nenipp.
Quote:
You should follow your teacher blindly and believe all the crap he loads on you, because even if it doesn't seem so at the moment, it will eventually lead you to your goal.
I bet some lazy pseudo-guru made that story up, so that he could keep using his students!
That certainly wasn't my cup of tea (or soap)
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 9 - 06/12/05 12:28 PM
Rich harlan
Posted by: harlan
Re: Day 9 - 06/12/05 12:32 PM
The student/teacher relationship is the most complex one imaginable. Not everyone is able to take it to the limit.
Perhaps another thread?
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Day 9 - 06/13/05 02:30 AM
"The student/teacher relationship is the most complex one imaginable"
I can imagine that