Does size matter

Posted by: JohnL

Does size matter - 06/05/03 05:12 PM

I've started this thread from comments made in another section of the forum.

Does size matter.

Big, small, tall short.

What is the effect.

Anyone with opinions.

JohnL
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Does size matter - 06/05/03 07:10 PM

Yes it does. Big people are, as a rule of thumb, harder to take down. But to quote Thompson its the size of the fight in the dog rather than the size of the dog that counts.

IMHO.

Alec.
Posted by: kyokushinshuffle

Re: Does size matter - 06/08/03 03:36 AM

KE = ˝ mv2

If the velocity (speed) is 2 times as great, the energy will be 9 times as much ( 32 = 3x3 = 9). http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/energy.htm

If you are half the size punch with twice the speed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
I've started this thread from comments made in another section of the forum.

Does size matter.

Big, small, tall short.

What is the effect.

Anyone with opinions.

JohnL[/QUOTE]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 06/08/03 06:46 AM

In my opinion size does matter, but only in that large/small heavy/light people have different strengths and weaknesses.
A big person obviously has certain advantages over the smaller person, but a skilled small person can turn these to their own advantage (smaller people are often faster for example).
I also agree with Yoseikan Student's comment
about the size of the fight in the dog.
Sharon
Posted by: Scholar

Re: Does size matter - 06/08/03 08:42 AM

Size matters as to what is best suited to the individual; Style, Techniques, Training. Example: Sumo by a "thin person" , better a style that uses finesse and/or speed ie:Jeet Kune Do.
Posted by: York Karate

Re: Does size matter - 06/09/03 08:08 AM

As was siad mass (size) x speed = velocity (power)

I think you have to be a whole lot better than your attacker to be able to punch twice as fast so overcome mass, and however you spin it size is a factor because you have to find a way to overcome it
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Does size matter - 06/09/03 09:59 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:
As was siad mass (size) x speed = velocity (power)

I think you have to be a whole lot better than your attacker to be able to punch twice as fast so overcome mass, and however you spin it size is a factor because you have to find a way to overcome it [/QUOTE]

errr.....

are you sure?, i thought that force was the product of mass and velocity and that power was the product of force and velocity. Velocity IS speed (roughly). i can generate a lot of force with high tension and slow movement, aint gonna do a lot of good though is it?

I think we are straying into generalisations, not necessarily a 'bad' thing, but I'd like to emphasise that you only have to hit hard enough, not as hard as your bigger opponent.

Physics is a useful tool for looking at Martial arts, but it is not the be all and end all. If I hit first in the right place with enough power I can drop a heavier opponent. There are so many factors that come into play in a live situation - dojo or not, that its difficult to make predictions based on size alone. If the fight is attrition based (see almost any sport combat) then sure the big guy will often win on the back of muscle mass, weight and structural strength. But as a smaller guy, I DON'T have to play that game.
Posted by: Ender

Re: Does size matter - 06/09/03 08:40 PM

I agree with Yoseiken. A bigger opponent in a kumite match might mean a disadvantage, but thats only because Im not allowed, by rules, to jab his eyes, slam at his throat, or remove his manhood from him.

On the street? I have no pity for anyone who puts me in sucha position where I cannot run, and must fight. They deserve exactly what they get. Big? Small? Doesnt make a difference. Theres no muscles protecting the eyes, throat or groin. Doesnt matter if your arnold freaking shwarzeneggar. You get hit in one of those 3 places, your going down for the count.
Posted by: York Karate

Re: Does size matter - 06/10/03 08:03 AM

I always hear the small person say I am tough and mean and I will stike the eyes etc

Why is we we always seem to assume that the big person is just big and not trained, tough and mean as well?


Seems short sighted to me.
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Does size matter - 06/10/03 08:29 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:


Why is we we always seem to assume that the big person is just big and not trained, tough and mean as well?

[/QUOTE]

Do we? The big person may be trained or not. If hes big and trained I've got even more problems, but why should that change my approach? I'm willing to adapt to my opponent, but I refuse to have the way I fight dictated by them. (or at least in theory!)

The fight starts, I have to survive. My attitude is and in my humble opinion must be - if hes got a chin, hes going down.

Get in there, get nutty, get out and run away before all his mates pile out of the pub and rip your arms off.
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Does size matter - 06/10/03 10:18 PM

Size doesn't matter. Why do they equate it with how hard and fast someone can strike?

Respect your opponent's potential, but size is no substitute for skill, speed power and the knowledge to attack anatomically weak points of the body.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Does size matter - 06/11/03 04:13 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Size doesn't matter. Why do they equate it with how hard and fast someone can strike?

Respect your opponent's potential, but size is no substitute for skill, speed power and the knowledge to attack anatomically weak points of the body.[/QUOTE]

I liken this to the conditioning argument where take an OK fighter in excellent condition the will probably beat an excellent fighter in OK condition.

Same with size, I think if you get an OK fighter who is big and strong against a smaller weaker opponent who is an excellent fighter - I still thing the larger opponent will dominate.

Obviously this depends on the difference between OK and excellent, but in the end if you get equal ability and pit them against each other - the bigger will have a better chance of winning.

I have seen it regularly - mainly in Judo Opens where you get technically excellent fighters who dominate their weight class are beaten by bigger guys who didn't even get a medal in their class.
Posted by: Kotetsu

Re: Does size matter - 06/11/03 08:19 AM

My only problem with big people is they usually have more "pain tolerance" than smaller people. But if you really want to get specific, what is big? I'm 6'6" tall, does that make me big? I don't believe so, as I only weigh 151-152lbs. That being as it may, big people could be short, and wide/stout. Maybe not fat but muscular. My friend is big, and he is only 5'7". It's the fact that he is basically 180lbs of muscle type stuff.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Does size matter - 06/11/03 09:53 AM

I think there is a stereo type big and small, obviously build is important, I think thats why the likes of Bruce Lee were so effective because of their conditioning, but at 6' 6" and around 150lbs! I think you need to eat some food! You must look like a stick insect!

Saying that my Kickboxing Instructor Kash Gill is 6' 3" and not far off that and he has 4 world titles and a pretty impressive record.
Posted by: madhag

Re: Does size matter - 06/13/03 04:25 PM

In my experience size do matter, but then it should not be a limitation. As the smallest person in height and weight in the school I face that challenge all the time. Part of MA training is to think outside to box; to go past our habitual modes of perception that trap us. Being big is valued by our culture. I can go on and on about the pros and cons of being small or big but i'm jet lagged and you can figure that out.
Our species 140 thousand years ago was pathetic compared to other animals. We were physically weaker, smaller, slower, everything whimpy. But we have brains and thumbs, thus we fluorished and now we are the biggest threat to ourselves and the world. Brute and size have its advantages but are not always the answer. If the rule "bigger is better" rings true in all of the universe we'll not be here having this discussion.
Posted by: Reiki

Re: Does size matter - 06/16/03 07:57 PM

<b>Does size matter.</b>

YES [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

A big strong bloke is always going to be tough for a smaller weaker opponent especially a woman and especially if grappling.

I work with the blokes most of the time these days and although tall and reasonably strong for my age/size etc they generally have more muscle mass, bigger stronger bones etc and can generally get the upper hand. I can kick and punch with the best of them but for all-out power they usually win. Also the pain tolerance seems to be less for them.

I've found that the younger ones [with the more macho style & too much testosterone] tend to be a menace during sparring. Not only can't they control their kicks and punches but they tend to get so carried away with the ego thing that they end up hurting you.

So for us women and the smaller men, we need to work out ways of not letting them get close enough to do the damage in a street situation....
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Does size matter - 06/17/03 07:54 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reiki:

A big strong bloke is always going to be tough for a smaller weaker opponent especially a woman and especially if grappling.
[/QUOTE]

You're confusing size with strength. Smaller doesn't necessarily meen weaker.

JohnL
Posted by: madhag

Re: Does size matter - 06/17/03 03:04 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reiki:
<b>Does size matter.</b>

YES [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

A big strong bloke is always going to be tough for a smaller weaker opponent especially a woman and especially if grappling.


yeah, even whenever i get a hug from a bloke my diaghragm is momentarily crushed [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
And so can a virus. A virus put me into bed rest for 3 weeks and took a couple of months to recover. It was way worse than any beatings I've ever had!
Anyway, in regards to grappling, a woman's advantage is flexibility. You need to be quick with intention. For example, I have a harder time torquing women's joints.
I watched an italian street cat beat up a doberman. sad, but a good lesson. the dog towered over the cat like babylon, could've easily put it out by sitting on it. the cat was small and scruffy with an intention like a forest fire. it had fangs, claws, and subtle coordination too; it was smart!! now i wish i can bring the cat back to the kwoon to teach me a few more lessons about size.
In regards to street fights, we're more likely to have a gun and/or knife pulled at us than be involved in a purefist fight. At that point that throws the size issue out the window. We better know alternative ways to defend ourselves other than the fist.

[This message has been edited by madhag (edited 06-17-2003).]
Posted by: York Karate

Re: Does size matter - 06/17/03 03:53 PM

Where do you guys live?
More likely to have a gun pulled in a street fight? My lord what a place.
I have been told over and over by police in Canada most fights start with pushing and a grab - all I can say is I am glad I live here rather than were it is more likey to have a gun or knife pulled in a fight place.

Having said that i love the idea that all these small people are just meaner and tougher and plain old bad assses and all the big guys are just slow disterested types, those are the guys i want to deal with can you send then all over here and I'll send the big guys I have dealt with to you because they weren't these type the were mean and fast as well, and in that case size well does matter. just my 2 cents and seems I live in a land far far away from this place
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Does size matter - 06/17/03 04:35 PM

I'm glad that the UK has the toughest gun laws in the world, I think you can have rifles and shotguns but only if you are in clubs or you are a farmer and you have to have the metal lockable cabinet (attached to a wall) inspected to make sure its up to scratch by someone from the police force.

Knives are not far off, a blade under 3 inches can be carried, but if the police suspect anything (i.e. your in a rough pub or in a busy area) they will probably take it off you for collection the next day.
Posted by: madhag

Re: Does size matter - 06/17/03 06:17 PM

Hong Kong, the Bronx and Seattle. Grew up in da hood and such.:0

My point is that one can get past the size issue. Yes, it does matter that I'm scared that most people can toss me across a football field... far fetched on the far side but hypothetically true. The challenge is to think past the limitations of being small, or big, or clumsy, which we are all capable of.
Posted by: Kotetsu

Re: Does size matter - 06/19/03 06:50 AM

Harping on this point again, there is more than one type of big. I'm tall but weigh very little. My friend on the other hand is short but has about 70lbs on me, making him big. That said, large people(big and tall, or just plain BIG) usually are fairly concieted about there strength and it's ability to overwhelm everything. So you let them think they have upper hand...

PS UKFF, just cause I look like a stick insect doesn't mean anything. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I actually do eat alot I just have a really high metabolism. Sorry it took a while to reply to your post thing but hey, that's the way the world turns.

[This message has been edited by Kotetsu (edited 06-19-2003).]
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Does size matter - 06/19/03 06:59 PM

Almost everyone has commented about whether an opponent's size in relation to you has any bearing on your chance of success in a confrontation, but no one has commented on how your technique has to change in response to changes in the size of your opponent.

I would like to address the second point, and I would say that without a doubt, size matters. Most of the techniques I practice involve balance breaking, generally by moving a person's center of gravity outside the bounding box defined by his feet. On a tall person, you generally have to make much larger movements to accomplish this. On a smaller person, a large move like this might provide them ample opportunity to counter, or transform the technique into something other than what it was intended to be.

Every technique has to be adapted to your opponent. Next time you try a new technique, practice with the shortest person in your class until it "feels right"-- then try it on the tallest person in your class. You will be surprised how it has to be adapted to fit the new opponent. It's important to keep these things in mind, especially if you tend to train mostly with a favorite partner.

Even in striking arts, your target selection can be greatly affected by size differences- If you are 5'2" and your opponent is 6'6" then you most likely won't be hitting him in the head without a detour at the knees or groin first.

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing how other people adapt techniques for extreme size differences, and about any techniques which lose effectiveness under these conditions. Understanding these differences is the key to understanding the answer to the other question, i.e. can a smaller, weaker, capable martial artist defeat a larger, stronger, capable martial artist. The answer: sometimes.
Posted by: madhag

Re: Does size matter - 06/20/03 06:20 PM

what i like about training with people twice my size is that i learn quickly what works and doesn't work. This is my very general outline for big guys: defensively, more evasion, and redirecting blocks than stop blocks. Footwork and speed, keep on moving than being still. Offensively, precise targeting to soft effective areas such as kidney, floating ribs, solar plexus, throat(if he is not too terribly tall), pressure points on inner arms/legs and knees, shin, top of foot. Avoid ineffective targets on big build guys such as the upper ribs and head which i can't reach unless he lowers it. Use of multiple blows instead of dependence on a decisive stike. Use combos to open up targets, and to set up for his imbalance. I fight closer in and stick because his power has not reached its full potential at such a short distance, plus for my stubby arms and legs to reach. I like to suddenly drop to the floor (with my leg butt, and arm on the floor for balance support and mobility)with a kick to the knee or groin, can be very surprising! And of course, use of mental projection, intention, focus, no dillydallying (true for all regardless of size). And get over my mental garbage that i'd be crushed!
i practice sparring with multiple (2-5) partners. It works for me to keep moving, fight with the mentality of an attacker rather than defender, precise targeting to effective targets, use of breath and kiai for power and control. I use that whenever i feel mentally overwhelmed in sparring.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Does size matter - 06/21/03 06:19 PM

Hi John,its your pain in the arse military friend. To answer you question, size and weight do play an important part in the out come in a fight. Take two people that are equal in technique and stamina. One is 6'5" and 260lbs. The other person is 5'9" and 170lbs. The bigger guy will always win. The only chance the smaller guy has is to have better stamina,technique,luck and most importantly heart. Then he might have a chance. Have you ever tried to armbar a larger, stronger person. I bet he just pulled right out of the technique. Just because the ad said "defend yourself against bigger, stronger opponents" doesn't mean you have to belive it. That is why they have weight classes in Judo and most other martial arts. Always train for worse case situations. Train with the biggest guy in your dojo. Get use to the feel and the weight.Learn how to use his size against him. Only "flight time" will help you learn. Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Does size matter - 06/21/03 10:38 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kotetsu:
Harping on this point again, there is more than one type of big. [This message has been edited by Kotetsu (edited 06-19-2003).][/QUOTE]

Thats a good point.

I have greater trouble dealing with reach than the trouble I have dealing with 'bigger' (wider) people.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Does size matter - 06/22/03 12:54 PM

Reach? Please explain.
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Does size matter - 06/23/03 08:02 AM

Hi Ed, (pain in the arse military friend.)

"To answer you question, size and weight do play an important part in the out come in a fight. Take two people that are equal in technique and stamina. One is 6'5" and 260lbs. The other person is 5'9" and 170lbs. The bigger guy will always win."

At last an interesting response to the original question. My next question is how much better in technique, stamina, heart, do you have to be to overcome the advantages a bigger person may have. I also note that you didn't mention strength. It may be that the smaller guy is stronger.

"Have you ever tried to armbar a larger, stronger person."

I think it's important that you differentiate between larger and stronger. Larger people I have no problem with. Stronger ones I use distractions prior to applying a locking technique.

"That is why they have weight classes in Judo and most other martial arts."

If that's the case why don't they have weight classes in sumo.

JohnL
(Your pain in the arse civilian friend)
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Does size matter - 06/23/03 09:07 AM

Sumo if very differnet but it does prove my point. The yokosuna is usually the largest most powerfull of the lot. He aslo has good technique. Ocassionally a smaller sumo guy will beat him with superior technique, not power. Size and power rule. It is a fact of nature.
As far as how good do you have to get. Only experiece will tell you. Skip the guys in the dojo. Enter an open class grappiling tournement. See how you do. That will be a good indicator of how good you are. Don't rely so much on your dirty tactics to save the day. Combine them with superior skill!Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Does size matter - 06/23/03 09:13 AM

Also if you are using strentgh to do your techniques you have a poor instructor. Jujutsu and any other grappiling art is about leverage. By using your strength you telegragh all of your moves and burn your self out quickly. Reserve your energy. Fight as if you are fighting your 5 year old sister. I remember Rickson Gracie telling me this. Ed
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Does size matter - 06/23/03 09:56 AM

Hi Ed

Noted your point below, but disagreed.

"Sumo if very differnet but it does prove my point. The yokosuna is usually the largest most powerfull of the lot. He aslo has good technique. Ocassionally a smaller sumo guy will beat him with superior technique, not power. Size and power rule. It is a fact of nature."

Size does not rule. Power sometimes.
I used to follow sumo closely and enjoyed watching Chiyonufuji (280lbs). he regularly beat bigger fighters with technique and strength. Size was not a determining factor.
He beat guys like Musashimaru(517lbs) and others that were heavier. He isn't alone in this regard. I believe your statement that size and power rule to be fundamentally flawed. That isn't the case in nature or anywhere else.

JohnL
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Does size matter - 06/25/03 03:57 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Reach? Please explain.[/QUOTE]

Long arms and legs. Ability to keep opponent at distance. It's ok, i'll live - working progress.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: madhag

Re: Does size matter - 06/26/03 12:12 PM

Not just perfection of techniques is an advantage for little people. Attitude- from your first step til the end of a fight can affect your opponent's mind.
I was jumped by 3 boys when I was 14, didn't know any MA back then, my adrenaline was pumping, ready to kill, and I was screaming and kicking at those guys, aiming especially at their groin and knees. On top of that I had to defend my little sister. We made it through alive without getting hurt. In the ghetto, you fight with all your will and might with the only end goal is survival. There is no time to distress over how disadvantagely small I am. In those days I got beaten up and have beaten up but I survived like a cockroach.
Posted by: smittenkittenTKD

Re: Does size matter - 07/18/03 10:14 PM

size matters lemme tell ya!

i sparred a man the other day, about 6'5, 350 pounds, top condition. im 4'11, about 80lbs,and that guy blasted me. wouldnt have happend if i was his size! so i gotta be quicker! lol if ur small, u compensate.

Kitten
and yes, thats my name! quit sending me emails asking me!
Posted by: Ender

Re: Does size matter - 07/30/03 08:44 AM

80 lb.?????

Jeez, I'm about 5'10 and 160 lb and I think I got size probs against a 6'5er
Posted by: csinca

Re: Does size matter - 07/30/03 11:44 AM

If size didn't matter, would this question even come up?

Not to say that a smaller (and even weaker) person can't overcome a larger (and stronger) person. I'm living proof as my sensei is 5'7" (135) and I'm 6'2" (195) and I generally lose whether its free sparring, clinched or on the ground.

However, I've gotta believe that if size didn't really matter, there wouldn't be weight classes in boxing, wrestling, ju jutsu, judo, kick boxing etc... and while there may not be weight classes in sumo, aren't those guys generally BIG compared to the rest of us? Isn't part of their training intended to make them BIG?

Chris
Posted by: smittenkittenTKD

Re: Does size matter - 07/30/03 08:31 PM

yea 80 lbs lol...i train about 30 hours a week and my mom is a health food freak. Its ok though, i dont look scrawney so i doesnt bother me too much. Except when tourney time rolls around, and i have to eat about 15 bananas to make weight. And even though i weigh 80, my modeling agency still calls up and tells me to stop eating and start starving myself, which i refuse to do. LOL
Posted by: DragonFire1134

Re: Does size matter - 08/29/03 06:57 AM

Size shouldn't matter, but for most it does. The fact is it doesn't matter how tall, nor how big an opponent is, what matters is his/her skill level, speed, know how, endurance, health etc...
Although true that most bigger people have more bodily mass to haul around and are therefore a bit slower (not always the case), its when a big person learns to use their size and mechanics to their advantage.
If your mind is consumed with the image of your opponents looming height or big bulky size, you just might get popped in the face! No matter the size, when they are within kicking range...snap out a knee/shin kick. They move in, take out the eyes with a finger jab and kick as hard and as swift as humanly possible...right between the legs. He will find it hard to get up.
Posted by: pakuamt

Re: Does size matter - 10/26/03 12:13 AM

Size and mass can drastically be used against an opponent. A well placed kick to the kneecap instantly turns an opponent's weight advantage into a hindrance that does more damage with every step. But a smaller person can be thrown into walls and other objects. It all depends on the intelligence and creativity of the opponent.

If you can adapt your technique to your opponent it makes no real difference.
Posted by: Goju-Ryu

Re: Does size matter - 04/05/04 09:26 PM

Size has little relevance to martial arts. example: My sensei, 5'6, 160 pounds. Was in a full contact kyokushin tournament agains a 6'2 220 pound man. The bell rang my sensei dodged the punches of the bigger man and in one blow, dropped the bigger man, just like that one hit. Everyone has there own opinion, to me the bigger person does not always win. It all depends on the training and confidence of the smaller fighter.
Posted by: darkesthours

Re: Does size matter - 04/18/04 06:22 AM

Depending on the situation, size can be an advantage or disadvantage. If one person is bigger than the other, then grapples are going to be swayed to the advantage of the stronger opponent (assuming skill is equal). Reach also comes into play when fighting at a distance. However, smaller fighters can usually find solid oppening by moving around and trying to take the side or attack the sides of larger opponents (also assuming skill is equal).
Posted by: rjhartu

Re: Does size matter - 04/18/04 07:42 AM

Size doesn't matter one bit, nor does strength or speed. Proper timing and distancing is all that truly matters, once someone breaks the balance of an individual that individual wins.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Does size matter - 04/19/04 07:28 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rjhartu:
Size doesn't matter one bit, nor does strength or speed. Proper timing and distancing is all that truly matters, once someone breaks the balance of an individual that individual wins.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to tell you, it really does matter.

Why are the fastest runners on the planet loaded with muscle?

Why are marathon runners skinny?

Why are competitions split into weight categories?

Why are there seperate male and female events?

Timing DOES matter, but breaking balance of a 15 stone guy is great - until he drags you to the ground and happened to be OK at wrestling when he was at school and suddenly your arms are detached from your body.

There are always exceptions (Royce Gracie is often used here) but generally size really does matter.
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Does size matter - 04/19/04 07:49 AM

Hi UKfightfreak

Thought this topic had died.

I tend do disagree with you on size matters. Obviously it can if the differences are extreme, however I think that strength is more important.

I generally have no problem with people bigger or smaller than me, but strength is more difficult. I've net some very strong, tough, smaller guys and I'd far rather take on 300lbs of blubber.

JohnL
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Does size matter - 04/20/04 07:13 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi UKfightfreak

Thought this topic had died.

I tend do disagree with you on size matters. Obviously it can if the differences are extreme, however I think that strength is more important.

I generally have no problem with people bigger or smaller than me, but strength is more difficult. I've net some very strong, tough, smaller guys and I'd far rather take on 300lbs of blubber.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

From my experience of different Martial Arts there are always the odd few small fighters that are really tough.

But generally the big guys dominate - thats just from experience.

Strenth is a major factor - but strenth does reflect size (I'm not talking hypotrophy bodybuilding muscles) If you are 200lbs and can squat 200lbs you are going to be stonger than a guy who is 150lbs squating 150lbs - all though relative size they are lifting the same.

Yes technique is very important, yes strenth is important but I still believe smaller guys have to work a lot harder.
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Does size matter - 04/20/04 08:01 AM

Hi UK

I don't necessarily agree, but just for aruments sake, let's list some advantages of being small.

Shorter limbs - Gives better leaverage for locking.

Smaller - Allows for quicker movement over a short distance.

Shorter - Allows for a quicker change in direction as the center of gravity is lower.

There are others.

For short people, it isn't all bad. I tend to look on the bright side.

JohnL
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Does size matter - 04/20/04 10:33 AM

[QUOTE]
JohnL said:
Shorter limbs - Gives better leaverage for locking.
[/QUOTE]

Most of what you said made sense, but I'm having a little trouble with this one. If you are using your whole body to generate leverage for your locks (and you should be), then the following will generally be true for bigger folks:

1. Movement through their strongest range will cover more distance than movement through the same range would for a smaller person.

2. Changing the height of their center to add power to a technique will be easier to do and have a more pronounced effect.

3. On the defensive side, a bigger person can absorb much more motion of his extremeties without losing his base.

Last night in the dojo we were working on a sort of body turn throw. My partner was a small person, and was having a lot of trouble with it, where it came really naturally for me. Then we realized that if I hold my arm out and pivout my body through 45 degrees at 5'11", it moves a *lot* further than hers does from the same relative position at 5'4".

I often find that when I work with much bigger people I have to add footwork and big shifts of body position to break my partner's balance, but that he can launch me with small, simple movements.

I'm not saying there isn't a bright side to being a shorter person, but I would need more from you to think the bright side applies to locking joints-- we have some guys whose arms are so much longer than other people's that the geometry makes some techniques impossible. Of course, this is a two way street, there some things the big guys can't do to the little guys without getting jammed up. Let's hear it for medium!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

edited to correct some (but probably not all) of the typos...

[This message has been edited by the504mikey (edited 04-20-2004).]
Posted by: Dave

Re: Does size matter - 04/20/04 12:22 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoseikan Student:
Yes it does. Big people are, as a rule of thumb, harder to take down. But to quote Thompson its the size of the fight in the dog rather than the size of the dog that counts.

IMHO.

Alec.[/QUOTE]

Leverage reach and bodyweight does matter by a skilled big person but unskilled it is a disadvantage.
Posted by: reaperblack

Re: Does size matter - 04/30/04 06:12 PM

no size doesn't matter, as someone who recently did ukemi for a nanadan I can tell you this, if you can't see the hands, you can't stop the hands. Knowing where to hit is more important that how hard you hit.
Posted by: reaperblack

Re: Does size matter - 04/30/04 06:15 PM

something to add, some people are better suited to specific styles because of there size or body structure, tall skinny guys may want to stay away from grappling, or they may want to take it to develop a strength in their weakness. Above all else technique will always win.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/04 11:02 AM

Morning John,

Of course size matters! The important question is have we learned to be EFFICENT with whatever our various "diamentions" might be.

The 5 foot person who weights half my weight, IF, if they have maximized their capasity to strike and can hit with four times their body weight, they are doing well. The heavier folks (as a serious generality I grant you), but the heavier one is the less efficent one is required to be because mass compensates nicely for "stopping power".

The more weight you can bring to bear <shrug> the more potential power you can draw from.

Height, age, gender, whatever the factor, each has wonderful benefits (& drawbacks)which accompany that particular factor.
Someone might not think being "older" you can hit hard, or fast... being younger (a child) that you have any power requiring attending to, a woman... more flexability perhaps than many of your male classmates, etc., etc.

Take your pick. Work with the body you are in...

Jeff
Posted by: otobeawanker

Re: Does size matter - 05/25/04 08:27 AM

.

[This message has been edited by otobeawanker (edited 05-26-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 05/25/04 07:14 PM

Just adding info, size doesn't matter but bodytype does. In most cases thin=fast but not all thin people r fast and not all fat/big people are slow. trust me i have a friend that weighed about 230lbs and he would put many thin people to shame when it comes to speed.
Posted by: White-Tiger

Re: Does size matter - 05/27/04 06:05 AM

Im gonna have to say from experiance on this one that it is not the size that counts.
A bigger person may seem stronger in apearance, but looks can be decieving, i am 5"7 and weigh 57 kg but iv fought some 1 who was 6"0 and weight aroun 105kg.
every 1 thought i was gonna get my ass kicked but i outclassed him in every way and ended up winning.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Does size matter - 05/27/04 07:38 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by White-Tiger:
Im gonna have to say from experiance on this one that it is not the size that counts.
A bigger person may seem stronger in apearance, but looks can be decieving, i am 5"7 and weigh 57 kg but iv fought some 1 who was 6"0 and weight aroun 105kg.
every 1 thought i was gonna get my ass kicked but i outclassed him in every way and ended up winning.[/QUOTE]

I think it has been established that smaller guys can and do win against bigger guys. But *Generally* if you take two guys of similar abilities on guy is 6' and 105KG and the other 5' 7" at 57KG the bigger guy will win.

You obviously were a much better fighter but even Bruce Lee (also 5' 7") said that if he was 6' 4" he would rule the world.

Also I would like to note that when I say size, I am assuming everything else is equal - e.g. realitive explosive strenth, speed etc for their size.
Posted by: ken harding

Re: Does size matter - 06/11/04 07:37 AM

For my money size does matter.

Big v small guy , both equal training, technique and so on and mostly the big chap will win. Not every time but mostly and it is this that keeps this dear old debate going.

IMHO naturellement
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 06/15/04 06:27 AM

hi, im no prize fighter... mainly used to be in the street, wher ur kata means zero...

in my xperience, brawny guys do hav the upperhand if u feel threatened by their size, and alow them to get close, also its all about heart out there and not holding back... also condition is important, cos if u not used to taking hits then it hurts...

i hav a brother 5.2, 100kg, but dam this guy has the heart of a lion and speed to match, but wen we sparred, i could hold out longer cos my body was used to the blows...

its down to your mind set & obvisly wot kinda fight... i dnt wana grapple with a guy bigger than me cos im no grappler...
Posted by: goldencrane

Re: Does size matter - 06/16/04 04:29 PM

SIZE DOES MATTER!!!!!!!!!!

A bigger person can have a weaker technique and his/her pure strenght can overcome.

A smaller person has to have an superb technique to overcome the strenghth of the bigger person.

simply put if size did not matter we would not have weight classes in boxing,wrestling,MMA etc.........
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 06/19/04 11:18 PM

size doesn't matter too much. First of all, there won't be a smaller guy who is weak. i'm 5'8 and i consider myself short, but i am not weak. I weigh 160 and that's mostly muscle, but in the end it deals with how good a fighter you are and if u have any training at all.since everyone's using bruce lee i will too. Bruce lee is small but he was amazingly strong and flexible however some guys he fought were big, but they had some speed too. they weren't just all muscle bound. It's not right to say that small ppl are always gonna be fast. I know loads of small ppl who aren't. If you're big you SHOULD have alot of power, but that's not the case most alot of the time.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Does size matter - 06/20/04 06:23 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Breed:
size doesn't matter too much. First of all, there won't be a smaller guy who is weak. i'm 5'8 and i consider myself short, but i am not weak. I weigh 160 and that's mostly muscle, but in the end it deals with how good a fighter you are and if u have any training at all.since everyone's using bruce lee i will too. Bruce lee is small but he was amazingly strong and flexible however some guys he fought were big, but they had some speed too. they weren't just all muscle bound. It's not right to say that small ppl are always gonna be fast. I know loads of small ppl who aren't. If you're big you SHOULD have alot of power, but that's not the case most alot of the time. [/QUOTE]

When I say size, I don't tend to think just of height, if you are lean muscle at 160lbs at 5' 8", I think that is big.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 06/27/04 06:13 PM

That formula is very flawed.

I punch I think 91 MPH the last time I checked. I weigh 225 lbs. I seriosly doubt that a 112.5 lb guy can punch 182 mph.
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Does size matter - 06/28/04 07:58 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tenbu:
That formula is very flawed.

I punch I think 91 MPH the last time I checked. I weigh 225 lbs. I seriosly doubt that a 112.5 lb guy can punch 182 mph.[/QUOTE]

The smaller guys I've seen generate more speed than the bigger guys. Speed isn't related to size.

JohnL
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 07/03/04 02:07 PM

Size can matter, that's my take on this question.

The mind is more important I think in terms of whom has the advantage. It's one thing to know how to use your body effectively, it's quite another to actually do what is effective for the situation at hand.

If you have sufficient strength to do damage, I think speed is more important than size as well. To strike first effectively is to win.

I also think body shape is more important than size or even weight.

For instance there are certain features in a male body, for eg and imo, that give you a distinct advantage, if you have them:

1)Lean hips- faster movement, quicker rotation of pelvis, a narrower channel for weight transference force

2)Broad shoulders- strength of upper body

3)Limb length- for eg length in the arm is good for reach v the shorter the arm the faster it can punch.

Returning to the mind...I think how effectively you use your body's structure is most important. For eg...if the body is balanced from its center it is closer to reaction time and strength limits.

A person balanced from the central point of the body within the stomach has head and spine working in harmony with the shoulders/arms/hands and pelvis/legs/feet.
Posted by: Telepath

Re: Does size matter - 07/03/04 07:13 PM

just because your smaller doesent mean your weaker...bruce lee...the lee man...he was alot stronger than most people,even people alot bigger than him
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 11/08/04 03:24 AM

hmm interesting. Let me tell you something about a streetfighter. They care only about surviving I have seen 100 pound women drop 270 pound trained men,simply to prove they could. But back to the street issue I am a small guy. if you are big and think you can take me by all means if you are a threat I will blow your friggin head off with a pistol or gut you like a fish. Size dont matter but it does make a difference in the unarmed aspect. good footwork can defeat any any attack. but if you are intent on surviving and your larger oppenent fighting you will tear them apart.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 02/15/05 08:56 AM

my opinion size doesnt really matter...it all depends on skill and how much you want to win...im quite strong for my hight (5'5) and ive fought people as tall as 6'5 and won quite easily as i feel the larger the opponent the slower they are....but when it comes to an actual fight wen ive fought bigger guys i try to keep my distance as once a guy twice your size has yuo you'll probly loose...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/19/05 12:01 PM

it does sometimes but i feel with effiecnt skill it doesnt make that much ofa difference as all people get hurt in all the samew places and if you can execute a hit to those points then it shouldn't be that hard..blesss
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/20/05 03:25 PM

Two untrained fighters - bigger stronger guy has a huge natural advantage. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot, sheer physics denote your capacity to forcibly render someone unconscious is enhanced by size. BUT. Physics also shows us big guys who train all strength and no speed or endurance have about thirty seconds of beserker fury, then just heavy breathing. Ever seen Bob Sapp? He only needs to land a single right overhand, but he does in fact NEED to land it.. so, to repeat whatever else said, experience coupled with technique is by far the most effective thing to take into a fight, but big dudes hit hard.


- Op. Skinny Ninja
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/21/05 08:07 AM

Size matters only if you let it.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/21/05 10:07 AM

Size matters, but skill can make up for the difference in sizes. Size is no reason to forget about skill by any means.

Size + Skill = Very hard to beat.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/26/05 10:59 PM

I didn't read all 69 posts so I don't know if this has been said yet. If it has then just delete this post.

I've found that in my experences sparing with a bigger guy was to use my greater speed and endurence to ware him out. I kept on moving around the ring from one corner to another popping him in the solarplexes making him even more exhausted. Near the end of the second round he could barely lift his arms and I went in for the victory.

Even if you're a sprinter without much endurence odds are you'll beable to run around longer then a bigger guy. Remember the Mohammed Ali/George Foreman fight? The "Rumble in the jungle"? Ali sat on the ropes and took Foreman's punches till he got tired then knocked him out. Now I know running around isn't the same thing as taking punches but the basic idea is the same.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/28/05 06:12 AM

Training ís the answer, my friends. Tall, small, muscular, slim, wide or thin.. It doesn't matter as long as you know how to use you body. In the end, the person that knows how to use his body the best shall Own All.

Oh, and the person with the most luck, of course(if you belive in such a thing):P

I think that small, muscular people make the best fighters, but that's just my oppinion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/28/05 06:20 AM

I am 15 years old, 5'8''(Yes, I'm small) whereas height is concerned) , 185lbs, 45inch chest and have been bodybuilding for a year.

Size does matter for the following reasons:

1. If u are big it will intimidate ur opponent.

2. If u are big (not fat), u will have more muscle i.e. more punching power.

3. Big guys can usually take more punishment due to larger bone structure and more muscle buildup.

THE ONLY WAY A SMALLER GUY CAN WIN IS IF HE HAS QUICKER PUNCHES OR IF HE IS LIKE BRUCE LEE!!

Lastly, if u ask someone who has no experience of martial arts to bet on a full contact match, chances are they will bet on the LARGER FIGHTER.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 03/28/05 11:27 PM

[QUOTE]
Size does matter for the following reasons:

1. If u are big it will intimidate ur opponent.

2. If u are big (not fat), u will have more muscle i.e. more punching power.

3. Big guys can usually take more punishment due to larger bone structure and more muscle buildup.[/QUOTE]

Yes, But:
1. The opponent will only be intimadated if they've never faught a bigger guy.

2. Having a huge upper body would raise the person's center of gravity making it easier to take them down.

3. The muscle build up would be able to take more punnishment but the larger bone structure makes no difference. The bones may be longer but they're not much thicker. At least not thick enough to make a difference in a fight. And who aims for bones? Only reason you hit the head is because it jars the person's brain around and disorients them. Plus, getting hit in the nose hurts like hell
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 04/04/05 01:44 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:
Where do you guys live?
More likely to have a gun pulled in a street fight? My lord what a place.
I have been told over and over by police in Canada most fights start with pushing and a grab -[/QUOTE]


Damn...try growing up in Western New York (Buffalo/Niagara Falls)...when I first saw the "likely to have a knife or gun pulled in a fight" comment, I didn't bat an eye. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

~CF
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 04/04/05 02:20 AM

I would never underestimate an opponent on the street. Bigger or smaller than me...I would still expect the person to have skill and/or a weapon. And if forced to fight, the goal is to end the fight as quickly as possible and not get myself hurt. To me, that basically means adapting my attack to the particular opponent and the particular situation and environment I'm in. I would think that success against any opponent is about using your mind as much as your body.

I read through all these posts and didn't see anyone mention the situation the fight takes place in. The size and strength of an opponent will matter less, I would think, if the opponent is somone who starts talking **** from half a city block away, walking toward you threateningly from a distance and giving you plenty of time to evaluate your situation and decide what to do. On the other hand, if you walk into a stairwell or are between two parked cars and you have to fight, then your opponents size and strength will definitely be MORE of a problem because you are dealing with much smaller fighting space and less time to prepare yourself for fighting this opponent.

Any additional thoughts on whether size matters in close-quarter situations as opposed to other situations?

~CF
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Does size matter - 04/04/05 06:20 PM

I definatley agree with Goju-Ryu. Size is often a weakness not a strength simply based on lack of mobility. And as far as strength goes, anyone familiar with internal martial arts knows that strength has little to do with muscles on its highest level. The only advantage i can see in being large is the extra resilience from having large and tight muscles. Other than that though just being tall can make the fight awkward, but that can be for either side.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Does size matter - 05/06/05 09:59 AM

Although i try to avoid street fights, the people who walk away from the scene (the winners) are generaly the people who know how to use someones size or body type against them,or is just a plain dirty fighter (note. you generally have to be to walk out of it) Although the general equation is that a big (heavy set) guy is able to put more of his own body mass into stikes, increasing the overall momentuem and power of the shot, and because of relative muscles sizes, will generally (not always) be stronger than the smaller bloke. But, because he may have lived by this principle himself, and the smaller bloke, who is more likely to get picked on, has bothered training, the smaller guy may have much greater finesse, and a larger range of moves/ Strikes/ holds/ takedowns that he can utilize, giving him the edge. But, as they say, its the person who wants to win the most that does.
Posted by: Moe

Re: Does size matter - 05/08/05 05:49 AM

I have to say from one situation I experienced that it is relatively difficult to challenge someone taller than you,let alone being tall AND muscular. The reach that their legs provide is deadly and they can have you cornered in a second. It will help to have good training and to be agile. I can tell you that the saying: 'the bigger they are, they harder they fall' really works.
Posted by: warriormonk

Re: Does size matter - 05/11/05 11:40 AM

Kyokushinshuffle is completely right. that is the physics of momentum.
Posted by: BaguaMonk

Re: Does size matter - 05/12/05 07:00 PM

No matter how you look at it, the bigger person (unless he is uuntrained in M), of the same skill level, will always have an small if not big, advantage. When smaller, you have to be quicker, smarter, and able to generate good martial power. When smaller you usually have to attack the centerline from the outside, while bigger people can attack the center from the front much easier. I've met smaller hispanic people who were incredibly strong for their size (ala boxers), I think it has something to do with muscle to size ration, which theirs is pretty high (or so I've been told). A big person with good co-ordination, technique, and flexibility is still dangerous. In push hands, if your big and have good awareness of your own weight, as well as of the others, you still have the advantage. True they will fall harder, but good luck getting a good fighter to fall that hard.
Posted by: Xavier

Re: Does size matter - 05/15/05 11:27 PM

well the only martial art i know of that strenght and size dosn't matter is aikido but i'd guess you need a little speed
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/17/05 07:21 AM

Quote:

Size doesn't matter one bit, nor does strength or speed. Proper timing and distancing is all that truly matters, once someone breaks the balance of an individual that individual wins.



Funny stuff
Posted by: DullBlade42

Re: Does size matter - 05/17/05 03:03 PM

Quote:

Size doesn't matter one bit, nor does strength or speed. Proper timing and distancing is all that truly matters, once someone breaks the balance of an individual that individual wins.



Rjhartu has a VERY valid point that we're missing. Distancing and timing and balance is VERY important if you are facing someone much bigger than you. With no balance, they have no strength. With no reach to hit or move up on you, they can't hurt you. By the time they go to attack, your eyes are quicker than their attack.

Some of you may laugh at these posts, but I know where rjhartu's coming from and I agree fully with him. It's all science, people. Try to kick with no strength. Try to see with no eyes. Try to speak with no mouth. It's all the same thing.

What are you going to do? Say, "Ah this guy is bigger than me. I lose. I'm done." That's very nice.

PS: Don't reply to this if you are just going to say, "Hahaha, you're very dumb. You live in an alternate reality-" blah blah blah. If you have no proof to back up your statement, don't bother replying.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/17/05 06:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Size doesn't matter one bit, nor does strength or speed. Proper timing and distancing is all that truly matters, once someone breaks the balance of an individual that individual wins.



Rjhartu has a VERY valid point that we're missing. Distancing and timing and balance is VERY important if you are facing someone much bigger than you. With no balance, they have no strength. With no reach to hit or move up on you, they can't hurt you. By the time they go to attack, your eyes are quicker than their attack.

Some of you may laugh at these posts, but I know where rjhartu's coming from and I agree fully with him. It's all science, people. Try to kick with no strength. Try to see with no eyes. Try to speak with no mouth. It's all the same thing.

What are you going to do? Say, "Ah this guy is bigger than me. I lose. I'm done." That's very nice.

PS: Don't reply to this if you are just going to say, "Hahaha, you're very dumb. You live in an alternate reality-" blah blah blah. If you have no proof to back up your statement, don't bother replying.



So why do you think there are weight classes in boxing, wrestling, etc.?

And I'll give you a condition just as you did: Please don't give me the "poke in the eye" false hope argument.
Posted by: DullBlade42

Re: Does size matter - 05/17/05 07:10 PM

I knew you were going to bring up the weight divisions thing... Simply said:

That is sport. That is competition, I am talking about a real life street confrontation where no rules apply. You can't choose the weight range you want to mug you.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/17/05 08:29 PM

Quote:

I knew you were going to bring up the weight divisions thing... Simply said:

That is sport. That is competition, I am talking about a real life street confrontation where no rules apply. You can't choose the weight range you want to mug you.



That doesn't answer my question. Why are there weight classes?
Posted by: DullBlade42

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 02:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I knew you were going to bring up the weight divisions thing... Simply said:

That is sport. That is competition, I am talking about a real life street confrontation where no rules apply. You can't choose the weight range you want to mug you.



That doesn't answer my question. Why are there weight classes?



The MA I train in is not a sport type. It is basically just a self-defense MA. For this reason, I don't know why there are weight classes. I don't sport around with the guy who's trying to hurt me.

Size does not matter in an actual fight. But this does vary on different styles. Some styles, size does matter and they always train to be bigger and stronger. Even though there will always be someone bigger and stronger than you. And some styles defy the size matters rule.

I believe you said that you competed as a wrestler? Of course you have weight classes in there, because that is sport. I'm not talking about sport. I'm talking from a street-type point of view.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 04:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I knew you were going to bring up the weight divisions thing... Simply said:

That is sport. That is competition, I am talking about a real life street confrontation where no rules apply. You can't choose the weight range you want to mug you.



That doesn't answer my question. Why are there weight classes?



The MA I train in is not a sport type. It is basically just a self-defense MA. For this reason, I don't know why there are weight classes. I don't sport around with the guy who's trying to hurt me.

Size does not matter in an actual fight. But this does vary on different styles. Some styles, size does matter and they always train to be bigger and stronger. Even though there will always be someone bigger and stronger than you. And some styles defy the size matters rule.

I believe you said that you competed as a wrestler? Of course you have weight classes in there, because that is sport. I'm not talking about sport. I'm talking from a street-type point of view.



I don't understand why you can't answer the question. You don't need first hand sport experience to figure it out. Go on, give it a try.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 04:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



Size does not matter in an actual fight.



Maybe I'm making this too hard for you. If two men who were equally skilled were "in an actual fight", and you had to bet your hard-earned money on one of them, who would you bet on? All you know is that they are equally skilled and that one is bigger and stronger than the other. You can't find out anything else about them. Who do you bet on?

And don't avoid the question by saying you don't approve of gambling or something.
Posted by: DullBlade42

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 04:38 PM

What are they equally skilled in?

And who says I don't love gambling?



PS: I really don't understand your question about the weight class thing. I told you I don't sport MA so I won't answer the question. But I don't feel like repeating myself. And it doesn't really have to do anything with what I'm talking about.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 04:40 PM

Quote:

What are they equally skilled in?



Whatever you want.
Posted by: DullBlade42

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 04:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What are they equally skilled in?



Whatever you want.



Oh. OK, they are both equally skilled in Martial Arts and they both know how to avoid fights and they both walk away and buy some shoes.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 04:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What are they equally skilled in?



Whatever you want.






Oh. OK, they are both equally skilled in Martial Arts and they both know how to avoid fights and they both walk away and buy some shoes.



That's what I thought.
Posted by: DullBlade42

Re: Does size matter - 05/18/05 04:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What are they equally skilled in?



Whatever you want.








Oh. OK, they are both equally skilled in Martial Arts and they both know how to avoid fights and they both walk away and buy some shoes.



That's what I thought.



Don't be dissapointed. You left it up to me.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Does size matter - 05/28/05 07:53 PM

i think if your willing to do anything and i mean anything to stop the person than i don't think size is a big issue. like it's been said before a small person should be able to make up for their size by speed or being faster. but truth is is that it does not really matter, it all really depends on how far you are willing to go. just my opinons. peace
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/28/05 09:20 PM

Quote:

i think if your willing to do anything and i mean anything to stop the person than i don't think size is a big issue. like it's been said before a small person should be able to make up for their size by speed or being faster. but truth is is that it does not really matter, it all really depends on how far you are willing to go. just my opinons. peace



Um...and when the bigger, stronger guy is just as willing to "go as far as...blah, blah, whatever"?
Posted by: BaguaMonk

Re: Does size matter - 05/28/05 09:31 PM

Quote:


What are you going to do? Say, "Ah this guy is bigger than me. I lose. I'm done." That's very nice.




This is true, kung fu, karate, etc. is all about using your tools to solve problems. As long as you keep your head and wits about you, you can figure out a way to beat anyone.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/28/05 11:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:


What are you going to do? Say, "Ah this guy is bigger than me. I lose. I'm done." That's very nice.




This is true, kung fu, karate, etc. is all about using your tools to solve problems. As long as you keep your head and wits about you, you can figure out a way to beat anyone.



I think people want to believe that, but...
Posted by: BaguaMonk

Re: Does size matter - 05/29/05 10:54 PM

yes, obviously its not realistic. But if something happened, its best to stun and run. But if you are forced to do so, then your going to at least try your best.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Does size matter - 05/30/05 12:07 AM

What kusojiji is getting at is that weight classes exist to eliminate perceived strength to weight ratio advantages, so that a contest can be judged on the technical skills of the competitors. However, this is a strawman argument at best.

Let's use Olympic weightlifting, weight classes and strength to weight ratio as an example. In competition, if you weigh less than your opponent, and lift more, you are ranked higher than if you are heavier and lift the same amount. So weight (and by implication, size) has nothing to do with it.

Obviously in a contest of strength versus strength, who's going to win? The strongest obviously. Unless the weaker person knows how to utilize the opponent's strength to their advantage.

Bottom line, size matters, only if you know how to use it to your advantage, or use your opponent's size to their disadvantage.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/30/05 10:57 AM

Quote:

Bottom line, size matters, only if you know how to use it to your advantage, or use your opponent's size to their disadvantage.



This is still investing too much in hope. You hope that the bigger, stronger guy doesn't know how to fight and you do. 'Cause if both know how to fight, guess what?
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Does size matter - 05/30/05 03:39 PM

if you say so. but to me if someone really knows how to use their body they can beat anyone in a life or death matter. no matter how big you are you still got balls, eyes, neck, so if there's nothing else you can do than kick them in the balls it's pretty easy to do that. or kick their knee in as hard as you can, it will break and i don't think that they will be getting up from that. a kick to the knee can take anyone out if done with speed and instinct, there's this one saying you know it's like where there's a will there's a way, and that's true it's to bad if someone gives up in the truth. unless they have a gun they can be taken down, and they can be taken down even if they have a gun if you don't mind the chance that you might get shot. but these are my opinons but i believe them and i've watched really small people take down big people. the only time something cannot be done is when that person believe's that it can't be done. train to be fast, learn how to put your hip into a punch to get max power from it, learn not to worry if you win or lose just let nature take it's course, strikes should be done without thought just by instinct. if your fast and not scared of the person and their alot bigger than you then just hit a sensitive area as soon as it is open. remember the bigger they are the harder they fall. anyway peace
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 05/30/05 09:37 PM

Quote:

if you say so. but to me if someone really knows how to use their body they can beat anyone in a life or death matter. no matter how big you are you still got balls, eyes, neck, so if there's nothing else you can do than kick them in the balls it's pretty easy to do that. or kick their knee in as hard as you can, it will break and i don't think that they will be getting up from that. a kick to the knee can take anyone out if done with speed and instinct, there's this one saying you know it's like where there's a will there's a way, and that's true it's to bad if someone gives up in the truth. unless they have a gun they can be taken down, and they can be taken down even if they have a gun if you don't mind the chance that you might get shot. but these are my opinons but i believe them and i've watched really small people take down big people. the only time something cannot be done is when that person believe's that it can't be done. train to be fast, learn how to put your hip into a punch to get max power from it, learn not to worry if you win or lose just let nature take it's course, strikes should be done without thought just by instinct. if your fast and not scared of the person and their alot bigger than you then just hit a sensitive area as soon as it is open. remember the bigger they are the harder they fall. anyway peace




Wishful thinking is very comforting I suppose.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Does size matter - 05/30/05 10:17 PM

kusojiji, perhaps you would like to contribute a little more than the one sentence sarcasm? In the last 6 posts, you have offered no opinion, no perspective and no discussion.

If you have something useful to contribute, then please do so. If you disagree, then please posit your argument as to why you disagree.
Posted by: etaks86

Re: Does size matter - 05/31/05 12:27 AM

i've decided not to fight about this because well for one i don't like fighting and two if i just keep posting that just means that i'm like the person who started it so i won't fight about this or any other subject. if you really believe that size is that important than you go ahead and believe that. it's fine. i wish you well. peace
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 06/06/05 12:33 PM

Its an old addage that 90% of the time, A good big man will beat a good smal man. Size and equal skills matter.

Change any part of the formula and the percentage drops, a smaller man with better skills it shifts 70/30 the closer the smaller more skilled man is to the larger less skilled guys the percentage goes up for the skilled person.

But if Equally skilled strength and size can be the determining factor. In graplling being stronger or bigger may not be that big of a factor, if the skills are near equal, stimina/fitness may be the bigger key. I remember seeing Larry, the Worm a 5'10 155lbs skinning guy, grapple with Bernard a 5'8 155lbs a muscle bound explosive fighter. Bernard could control him but he could not submit him, as the match went on Bernard got tried and the Worm tapped him out. Who would have bet that. I've seen Bernard dominate 175-190lbs grapplers that try to out power him. BUt he can't out grapple the Worm (Unless he pound and ground).

Standing he can't take the Worm down without suffering damage from strikes, and he can't stand up fight him long range because of the reach advantage. Once inside he can do lots of damage to the skinning body of the Worm.

So be able to advanatge of your weight/strength/reach/
whatever advantage mattter most of all.
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Does size matter - 06/09/05 12:34 PM

Having started this thread some time ago, I find it interesting that people seem to continuously make a direct corrolation between size and strength.


I know any number of big people who are about as strong as an underendowed chipmunk, and a number of small people who crush walnuts in their hands before chewing on nails.

I still argue that size doesn't matter, but strength does. All different sizes does is change the perspective.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 06/09/05 02:43 PM

John I agree that the fight in the dog, outweighs just big dog theroy. But I disagree with your analogy that small guys are as strong as big guys, on average both being physically fit.

And hand strength or body part strength does not equal grit and mass + strength. IMHO. Comparing oranges to ORANGES.

I agree a small guy thats phyiscally fit is stronger and maybe tougher then a large couch potato type guy. But on average overall strength follows size in portion, unless you have the rare barehand walnut cracking little dynamo.

When I use to bounce at the tiddy bars, we had more problems out of the little drunk Napoleans then the Gentle Bens. Some were wussies. Some of these little guys could were very fast and could really scrap, powerful strikers, but they were still 155-180lbs you could grab them, throw them around and put weigh on them to control them. 3 to 4 my size (6'3 225lbs) bouncers could hold him, man handle him and stop him from hurting anybody or himself. Without KO him.

But when the G.B.s got loose though it usually took a lot to get him mad, pending his disposition. It took 6 to 8, if not more my size guys to hold/detain/stop him without hurting him. Usually you had to to hurt him, to stop him. 2 or 4 my sizes guys where like splinetrs in a tornado, it took two hands to get a grip on his wrist, some you couldn't bear hug arms pinned waist too big or arms, you couldn't pick him up and heave or throw him unless he was moving, or wrists lock him. There was no way 2-3 of us were gonna manhandle him. I'm talking about the 280-340lbs behemouths that wouldn't hurt a fly. Step on his foot all day, call him names. But say something cross against his mother, wife or kids. Then it was KATIE BAR the DOOR!!! Somebodies a$$ was in trouble. This is Apples and oranges, but Size does matter!!! Trust me.
Posted by: Pess

Re: Does size matter - 06/09/05 08:52 PM

I would say size most defintitely matters. One of the guys at my class, is skinny, tall, and has the longest freaking arms I've seen in my life, like a freaking ape long ^_^ Another of the guys is huge, I mean like biceps the size of my thighs huge ^_^ Certain things work on bigger guys, certain things work on smaller guys. So yes, size makes a huge difference. One doesn't go the inside of a bigger guy unless you know exactly what the heck you're doing there. That's why I normally stay the outside, because I'm smaller than most. However, I don't think this pertains to who will win or not. The size and the strength that comes with it has to be applied through form. In my humble opinion, I'd say a small fast guy that knows a small fast guy form would be about even with a big strong guy that knows a big strong guy form, at the same training level. That may just be hope talking though ^_^
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 06/10/05 11:08 AM

In point fighting or tourney sparring the fast form may have a big advantage. But in a street fight, I?

I've notice once the sparring goes full contact this advantage slips away slightly and power, tenacity becomes more a factor. Now if with the speed he has telling power the outcome may be the same or worse.

Equal skill, more power and more strength gives you a decisive advantage, you can be a little slower. In the streets theres no rounds just an explosive series of moves only the most skilled little man can make fitness a real factor here. Like it is in the wild damage is done powerfully, quickly, and unmerciful. Being able to inflict telling damage on the other guy is imperative. Only the toughest little guy can survive a exchange were both are inflicting damaging blows. His best strategy is to hit and don't get hit hard. Of course a more skilled guy can hit in areas that will break down the bigger man.

I've seen smaller more skilled men beat the day lights out of big mouths that are just big. But the skill factor was way shifted to his advantage.
Posted by: kibadachi1

Re: Does size matter - 06/10/05 10:34 PM

ANY PERSON CAN BE BEATEN ON ANY GIVEN DAY
THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE TOUGHER THAN YOU
Posted by: Rumble

Re: Does size matter - 06/11/05 05:23 AM

True dat its not the size of the boat but motion in the ocean lol lol lol
Posted by: Blindsided

Re: Does size matter - 06/11/05 04:28 PM

I seen a little guy in a K1 fight just charge the hell out of this huge guy and he knocked him out in the first 45 seconds of the fight. I think if you are smaller you should just charge in and try to get as many shots as you can on them and hopefully daze them good so you can get more shots on them.
Posted by: MAGr

Re: Does size matter - 06/13/05 06:32 AM

Does size matter?
YES, of course it matters!
If you are tall and big you have a better chance of kicking the crap out of someone. There is hope for the small guys because you dont need treetrunk arms to generate power but it helps! you dont need houses for legs to kick hard, but it helps, you dont need long arms to hit someone before they can hit you but it helps!
Big guys have an advantage when you start from zero, but if you can make up for it with skill then good for you!
There are parts of the body that no amount of strengthening will strengthen (eyes, throat, balls, sternum, kidneys). But if you ask me to fight against Brock Lesner, then i de tell you to kiss my....
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 06/13/05 09:53 AM

I've also seen little guys smashed like egg shells for rushing with the "I'm gonna go balls to the wall at him", if you are smaller you gotta have a plan or just be that much better then your opponent. If the guy has good foot work and accurate anything from hands to knees to kicks rushing in blindly will only get you smashed.

If the big guy doesn't have any skills or hes caught cold you can walk him down and more safely do the same damage tben rushing in hard throwing all you got. Most skilled people know how to side step or circle a rush and once they get that off angle its lights out.

Big or small I like people to rushing in blindly, they run right into strikes, adding to the power!!!
Posted by: madmattg

Re: Does size matter - 06/19/05 01:18 AM

With being slack and not reading all the post let me say sorry first if I rehash on point already covered.

However in my opinion every one worries about size as a major factor. The thing is you cant change your genetics and how you are by DNA. So work with what you have find out how you can counter the obstacle in front of you.

Thats why you continue training, no matter what level your. Somewhere someone in the world is training and when you come head to head they will beat you. So train all the time, whether mentally, spiritully, physically.............
Posted by: Legend of the Hungry Wolf

Re: Does size matter - 06/22/05 12:00 AM

"As was siad mass (size) x speed = velocity (power)

I think you have to be a whole lot better than your attacker to be able to punch twice as fast so overcome mass, and however you spin it size is a factor because you have to find a way to overcome it "- quoted from someone i forget.

don't give me that bulldonkey. how can you be so ignorant as to base an opinion on something that isn't always true. I am 270 lbs, i bet you i can punch faster than most of you. no way to tell. But size does not determine punch speed.

Size does play a role in a fight but there are too many variables to determine a fight off of just size. Everything plays a role when duking it out, weather, the environment, experience of each participant, size, strenght, endurance, speed, quickness, focus, injuries, what they ate/drank, did they pee, do they have too? what clothes they are wearing, rings, jewelry, weapons, shoes, piercings, tattoos, sickness, if either participant gets help from friends, how much alcohol they drank, the list is endless, but size does play a role.
Posted by: Ace

Re: Does size matter - 07/01/05 06:54 AM

Here Here! i agree, and that sums up the arguement
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 07/07/05 10:28 AM

I disagree with you here, the rest of your comments was solid, but this part. - base an opinion on something that isn't always true. I am 270 lbs, i bet you i can punch faster than most of you. no way to tell. But size does not determine punch speed.

Unless you have trained exclusively to improve your speed I doubt if you can punch as fast as most of us that weight 225lb and less. That was a comment with no way of proving it, as U mentioned. But generally big guys don't strike faster then smaller guys, but with their natrual speed + weight + proper torque they can hit harder, most time.

Of course it doesn't require that much power to knock a person out, no matter how big they are. If you get there first and often it doesn't matters. A big guy may only need to get there once, if he is fighting a smaller person.

A small guys strength is his speed and tenacity, of course we have all seen the tall skining or short fat guy thats slow as moluosses, with no snap is his punch.

I'll make a genearlizing statement from what I've seen that the big guys 5'8-6'5 250-500lbs that are not agile though they maybe powerful standing & in the mount. Are usually very clumsy on the ground and or against a guy with good foot work and find it difficult to defend or get up once on the ground. Unless they have train on how to do this. And still they may do it less effective, most of the time.
Posted by: thisisme

Re: Does size matter - 07/07/05 01:55 PM

I definately believe that size does not matter. My 14 year old son has been practicing Isshin Ryu Karate and competing in mixed MA tournaments for 11 years now (since he was 3). He is 5'3" and very slight in build (around 125 lbs) and I have seen him take down a full grown man (6'2" and over 220 lbs). He doesn't let anyone intimidate him in the ring or in the Dojo anymore. He tells me it's not the size of the fighter that matters- its being able to out-think your opponent and possessing the speed, agility and knowledge to act on your instincts. He always tells the younger students that he works with "never under-estimate your opponent's ability but more importantly, never under-estimate your own. If you have the will and the heart- half the battle is won already."
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 07/07/05 03:02 PM

Sparring is different then fighting, You don't actually thing that a 14 year old can compete in a all out fight against seasoned Man. He hasn't even got his puberty strength yet in most cases, thats one of my problems with Mix martail arts it prepares them for the octogon but not for what happens on the street. You don't want to intially go into a clinch or ground work on the street. You mentioned take down.

I was teaching in a seminar and we covered some self defense ground work techniques, I told them don't apply this techniques in a crowd of people even though you have your attacker almost totally helpless you are vurnable to being stomped or KO'd by anybody on his side.

Some techniques work best we you two are confided like in a cell of two or bathroom and just you two.

I'm not taking anything away from your tough little warrior
but Apples and Oranges, my man.
Posted by: Legend of the Hungry Wolf

Re: Does size matter - 07/07/05 11:30 PM

"6'2" and over 220 lbs"- thisisme

thats either one strong guy, or one out of shape guy. I took Ishin-Ryu, i don't like it for my own reasons. Mcdojo incident. oh by the way size does matter. mass is very important.

but in all honesty, its more than just size as i have said before, there are too many factors to a fight to pin it on just one.
Posted by: Tezza

Re: Does size matter - 07/08/05 05:47 AM

I did beleive that size did matter. But have after starting training in Wing Tsun and this is a perfect art which teaches weaker, smaller people to be capable of defeating much stronger people. This is because we are taught not to fight force with force and believe me it does work. You see the much smaller people beat the bigger people.
So its not just down to size
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 07/08/05 09:28 AM

I don't care what the philosophy is all martial arts teach that but if the skill level is the same size does matter. Weather its called Wing Chun or Tsun in actually fight size matters. In equal skilled sparring contest size matters.

I remember a gifted Silat Guru that was commenting on how easy it was to knockout kick boxers, his students having seen him do it 3-4 times. But he sparred with another bigger Silat and Capoiera Instructor. He was driven back and could not mount an offense because of the uneven size factor, 1 time even Ko'd because though the skill level was equal the size/power factor.

While visiting dojo all over the SW I've sparred with many different fighting Instructors when the skill was equal and I was bigger or stronger size always mattered. When the skill level was uneven size mattered in that it even the contest, we both admitt he had better skills. SIZE does matter, especially when we are talking skilled fighters.

Sometimes in a frenzy it matters if a untrained guys can caught U cold especially if U are smaller. And do major damage if he has a size advantage.

If there is a skill factor difference it doesn't matter that much, if the smaller person can avoid being hit or manhanmdled. There is a certain ponit where size and power is a big factor.

A good big man will bear a good small man 9-10 times.
It may not matter that much in Chi-Soa, really if you are equally skilled it does matter there too.

Philosophies are just that, methods and ideas.
Posted by: Tezza

Re: Does size matter - 07/08/05 09:35 AM

Im not trying to start a fight i was just saying from what i have seen and i agree with you it depends on the opponents skill. If they are both the same then the stronger would probably end up better off
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Does size matter - 07/08/05 10:03 AM

No don't take it that I was being argumentative, I beg your pardon if I came off that way. But from a inside the toronado view I've hit ruffins on the street of different size with the same techniques (I never pull it for size) the smaller tough guys usually with try to make it back up.
The guys that just think their tough stay down. The bigger then me guys, it usually takes a follow up and once they are down I stomp their ankles, among other things to make sure they stay down.

Smallers guys can be so fast even with their bell rung they can roll backup quicker then I can get to them. There is advantages both ways but, I definitely don't want the big guy getting up.

Now on another hand the guys that are faster then lightening with good power, I hate sparring them and in a real fight with them they make you fight them as a certain way. I usually counter punch, and make them have to deal with my reach advantage, if I have one. Most of these guys are smaller men then myself, most of the time.

So no your oppinon is as valid as anybodies, but I questioned how many times you been inside the storm? Have U experimented/sparred different styles and people of different body sizes. You may question why I think the way I do. When I'm the smaller guy Size still matters I can't fight him like he is my size, or try to over power him if get caught trying to lift or fail at a takedown. Thats big trouble. I got to hurt him before I come in and out!!!
Posted by: Tezza

Re: Does size matter - 07/09/05 07:53 AM

A well put point. No hard feelings about before i just got the impression that you didnt like what i had to say. I must agree with you with you point
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Does size matter - 07/12/05 12:12 AM

Its disappointing and disheartening to see that folks can be so brainwashed by the sifu/sensei/guy-named-earl that they go through life with such dangerous and patently irrational assumptions standing between them and the ugly violent reality around them.
Posted by: Inner_Ear

Re: Does size matter - 07/17/05 11:01 PM

York, welcome to the Murder capital of the world: Detroit
Posted by: Kaver

Re: Does size matter - 07/27/05 02:41 PM

No size does not matter. If you're in complete control of your body, understand how your body moves (instinctively), and know the limitations that you can break then no size doesn't matter. Like the old saying goes:"You are your worst enemy, defeat him and you are unstoppable."