Tight fist = tense arm?

No - I don't tighten just the the pinky and ring finger.

It is a non-issue, yet I am amazed how many people make an "issue" out of fist tightening. I've seen many "recipes" including the ubiquitious "tighten just before hitting" etc.

Sorry, but I can't see why you don't just keep a fist that is tight enough to punch, yet keeps your wrist loose for a whip-like uraken.

As I said, this isn't theory. I've been doing it for 28 years and it's the first thing I show beginners.

Always remain relaxed, always, until impact. If you are loose your reaction time is going to be greater.

Sorry Duane - as it happens you've stumbled upon one of my "pet hates". I just see recipies for tightening as unnecessary. It is part of my (highly personal and controversial) view.

I don't mean to come across so strongly. In the end, there is more than one path up that mountain!

My point exactly. Telling a beginner to only tighten the muscles that need to be tight and loosen those that need to be loose-while exactly what they need to do-probably won't attain their and our desired result.
Meet you at the mountain top.

This a video Bossman from the forum done on the first and punching. It might be relevant here:

http://www.woma.tv/woma/channels/159/movies/29.html

I might make the point Duane that I show beginners how to make a fist at the very first lesson and they usually don't take long to get it. After a few months they more or less have the "tight fist, loose wrist" combination. Of course it takes years to "perfect" but I certainly don't leave them to pursue a goal without guidance.

Suffice it to say that I have always been surprised by debates about tensing the fist and how it slows you down. As a karateka and internal artist I've never experienced this. It is a question of technique that I can easily demonstrate in person. If I get around to it I'll do a video (which is easy with today's technology and my predilection for making them - I'm a late but enthusiastic convert to video editing and computers generally!).

I haven't watched the video posted above, but I will do so now.

Fists Clenched. theres a lot of reasons for this.

A) your in a fight, you try to do your "tense before impact" thing, oops you were a millisecond too late, have fun with a broken wrist.

B) Theres other things to focus on than your fists. You dont need anything extra on your mind in a confrontation

with the muscle contradiction thing, tensing your fist has no effect on how fast you can move your arm about. The forearm muscles for the most part just tense the fist, and one of them basiclly assists your bicep. That muscle isnt used for your grip, so therefore wont pull your arm towards your bicep while your triceps try to extend it.

Its dumb to keep your hands loose, if you cop a punch and your fingers arent tight your screwed.

Hmm. Mr Crab I do believe we are in complete agreement for the first (hopefully not the last) time!

YOU CAN'T DO IT DAN!!! YOU CAN'T TIGHTEN YOUR FIST AND NOT YOUR WHOLE FOREARM!!! NU UH!!

Silly, the things we get worked up over,lol.

YES - YOU CAN! (If you're using the sine wave, "Chi-ball orchestration TM" and unless you're doing American goju)

Another thing that really works me up is people who put the toilet roll onto the holder the WRONG WAY!

My mates replaced mine with sandpaper the other day

The amount of tension needed in the fist is actually quite small, most folks over tighten which causes tension in the arm, shoulder and even the upper back/chest. Gently pressing the tips of your fingers into the palm of your hand is generally enough. Think of holding a fly in your fist. The fly is held firmly in one place but it cannot move around.

The whole tension on impact thing is generally over done and misunderstood, imo. The increase in tension needed is minmal to have a large affect. However, if one over tenses the affect actually becomes a negative. Think of the fly in the fist. Upon impact (or better yet a tiny fraction after impact) simply squeeze enough to barely kill the fly. This increase in tension, when done properly, causes a tension reflex in the person being struck which makes the strike much deeper and more devastating. Of course this is all about delivering strikes inside the body, not the normal external strikes commonly practiced and taught.

Alightment of the fist/wrist/forearm is of utmost importantance. Get in a push-up position with a fist and hang out for awhile, 10-15 minutes. If you are doing it properly and resting on your skeleton this is no big deal. If you are using your muscles it will become difficult relatively quickly, but hang in there as the muscles wear out your body will start looking for other ways to support itself. Note the position of the wrist, if it is aligned properly the tendons have slight tension to hold the wrist in place but they do not support the load. Also note the comfort/discomfort of the fist. If you are squeezing the fist too tightly it will become painful quickly and turn white with restricted blood flow. When you are using the proper amount of tension your fist should be reasonably comfortable and when completing the drill your fingers/hand should not be overly stiff as blood has been flowing the entire time.

One other thing to study while in this position is to learn why the incorrect wrist position is bad. By really feeling this, one begins to learn what not to do and why on a deeper level. When in the leaning rest push your wrist out slightly so they are not in alignment with your fist/forearm. Note how very weak this position is an how bad your wrist feels. Now adjust so the wrists are inside and feel the same. When we strike with a bent wrist we have a similar result and much of the force of the strike goes into our own wrist intead of the target. Ouch!

Take care,

Mark J.

Indeed. A friend calls the fist tightening "curling" to distinguish it from over-tension.

I make my fist as tight as possible WITHOUT tensing the wrist. This equates to a little more tension than "holding a fly" but it is definitely not the tension some people refer to that impedes/slows movement.

Insufficiently "curled" or "tightened" fists can lead to serious knuckle injuries. Overtightening is daft.

I am trying to stay out of the personal argument that a few people seem to have going on (maybe they don't and I am seeing it wrong). However, I would like to dispute the concept of "overtightening" which "slows down the arm."

This is completely false and has no justification of any kind. I don't care how tight you make your fist, you will not slow down your technique.

As mentioned, the muscles that tighten the fist are in the forearm and only affect the wrist and fist. The power and speed of the technique should not be coming from the elbow, let alone from the forearm and wrist.

The body generates the power and if the elbows and above are relaxed, the speed and power will not (can not) be decreased. The only thing that could decrease them would be additional mass in the hands, which a tight fist can not cause.

Hi Tony

No I don't think there is an argument. I came on a bit strong with my view to Duane - but it wasn't really intended to sound like that.

I agree with your position; forearm tension shouldn't affect the speed of the body generally. However in my experience people who overtighten their muscles in their forearm also tighten up other muscles in the body!

Otherwise I agree with you - and I suppose this underlies my "strong" feelings about this; I can't see why it is even debated - teachers should pick this up very early as a fundamental error and work on "relaxing" their students. But seeing as it crops up regularly in debate among martial artists I tend to feel a bit exasperated!

Tension is like napalm, it spreads.

Following are some tests that very few people can do well, perhaps you fall into the 1/2 percent category and can do them all, great for you but for most it is not so easy.

- Very slowly tighten the muscles in your forearm being hyper aware of the rest of you body. Specifically the deltoids and triceps in that arm. If you feel them move even the slightest amount that is tension. Heck it is good to roll up your sleeve and have some one watch as most people have little awareness of their own bodies. Slowly increase the tension until there is movement/tension elsewhere.

- Slowly increase the tension in a fist. Feel how the tendons run through the forearm all the way to the elbow. As you increase the tension in the fist these end points of the tendons in the elbow are affected, hence the elbow itself.

- Have a partner pick up your arm and move it about. Totally give your partner your arm so there is no tension in it. Let him feel how soft and fluid it is........or how difficult it is to be relaxed and fluid. At some point make a fist with different degrees of tension. Your partner should be telling you any differences he feels as soon as he feels them. You can also notice any dffierences in your own arm and how the tighter the fist the more difficult it is to give up the rest of your arm.

Tension spreads and the more intesnse the situation the faster it spreads.

Tension also affects the heaviness of ones hands/fists which ultimately determines if one can strike inside the body or is limited to surface strikes.

Take care,

Mark J.

I do have the ability to relax my muscles at will. That is often why I was used as the "patient" for scenerios in Physical Therapy school.

OK, thought about it some more...if by muscles which tighten the fist you are meaning only the muscles which flex the digits then I think that's disputable because you are not counting muscles which do adduction, abduction, flexion and extension of the wrist, and supination/pronation fo the forearm which should count in making a fist that's gonna receive impact as far as I can tell.

Also the forearm flexor muscles I am aware of (we don't cover every single muscle in detail) still originate largely from the medial epicondyle of the humerus (including one flexor digitorum muscle that i'm aware of), if the muscle is contracted and it crosses the joint, I don't understand how it could not affect the movement of upper arm as well.

I'm willing to listen to any alternative viewpoint but so far this ain't makin' sense.

I cant believe this is even a discussion. Even if somehow making a reasonable fist slows you down, you have to do it anyway lol