How practical is training weapons now days?

Posted by: Neko456

How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/03/07 01:22 PM

How practical is training Filipino/Indo weapons now days? Is it just tradition or is it practical. I know how deadly a knife can be hut really how often would there be a chance or would you want to esculate the encounter to DEADLY FORCE?

Understand I think stick and knife training is great but how often do you think you would use it in a encouter. Unless you lived in the worst part of town and even then you don't want to bring a stick or a knife to a gun fight.

Right?
Posted by: idaho

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 11:26 AM

Hi Neko,

I have have asked myself the same questions so I hope my answers don't sound too flippant. I am just "brainstorming" with you, not against you. It must be said that I have wrestled (no pun intended) with the same questions in regards to bjj as well as. I mean first off, what are the chances I am going to be involved in a physical confrontation period? Honestly, almost zero....For me at least, someone would have to flat out attack me or my family. Is a stranger coming out of nowhere and attacking you a deadly situation? Of course it is, it is not you escalating the situation, it is your perception of an imminent physical threat. What do you think? What sort of situation are you thinking of where you would need some martial skills, but not weapons skills? Talking with you could help focus my own thoughts on it as well, thx. Mike
Posted by: MattJ

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 11:43 AM

I think Idaho has the right idea. Very few of us practice with the intent of putting these skills to actual use. Really self defense nowadays is probably going to require firearms, if anything.

I practice for enjoyment, comraderie and fitness. I do practice with a mind to utility - in the context of the training itself.

I don't train weapons, though.
Posted by: KJ63

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 01:10 PM

It is a good question, and I would have to agree with the rest of them. I've studied FMA for 20 years, and although I have done full contact stick fighting, I don't plan on ever being in a fight using a machete, bolo or borong, which is the literal translation of the art.
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 01:15 PM

I guess I would say the chances arent very high, but for the very unlucky ones they probably will have a few encounters where they do have to implement the techniques they learn.

And in terms of stick and knife fighting many of those techniques can carry over to your barefists, so it'll help you out in a fist fight if not in a knife fight and even more rare a stick fight.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 03:06 PM

I don't train weapons because I feel it's not practical to do so. I WILL train against weapons from time to time but I feel that has limited utility as well. Just my opinion.

If by training weapons you mean, going to the pistol range, thats another story. If you're just firing at static targets though, you're still not really doing yourself much good. If you want to train gun fighting for self-defense, it needs to be CLOSE RANGE COMBAT hand-gun work.

For that, go here: http://suarezinternational.com/ There is no one better at the craft.


-John
Posted by: idaho

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 04:20 PM

Hello John, I have read a few of your posts and I know this..{I don't train weapons because I feel it's not practical to do so.}....is your opinion. Again, a lot of this is just to help me think things through....so, how is training empty hand, including groundfighting, more practical? You have said on a couple occasions that one of the reasons you train groundfighting/bjj is you train for "worst-case" scenario. To me, one major worst case scenario is the opponent has a weapon. If we agree that we are not voluntarily getting into fights, that it is by far best to walk or run away, then the only confrontations we get into are absolutely unavoidable. Who is to say if you will need a weapon and know how to use it in these situations? Nowadays, even your friday night kegger fights often involve weapons, let alone some obviously deranged guy attacking you in the grocery store parking lot. I understand this is just your opinion, but I value your opinion. I have read many of your posts and find you to be intelligent and possess practical common sense, so I am curious and am asking you to go a little more in depth into why you feel empty handed training in all 3 ranges is important but weapons training is not.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 06:10 PM

Quote:

Again, a lot of this is just to help me think things through....so, how is training empty hand, including groundfighting, more practical?





Great question! How is it practical? By helping you destroy your own ego so you never feel compelled out of a sense of cowardice to have to fight. If you take care of those demons in the gym (by developing your skill to a high level), you won't be drawn into fighting because of egotistical reasons. So by learning TO fight, you learn how NOT to fight.

Self-defense for ME means avoiding any and all possible violence. Training athletically forces you to deal with your ego in ways not possible through less athletic means. The mind and emotions are then free enough to where you can make more intelligent decisions. That alone keeps you safe. If that's not practical, nothing is.

Now as far as training weapons is concerned, which weapons would I choose and why? I don't believe in carrying because I feel that you're likely to be too late when you need it most (as a civilian). Having one in the home is another story (or perhaps in one's car). Training knife? I'm not into that. I don't want to have to draw a weapon to deal with a weapon (again, probably too late if you had to). If I draw a weapon for an empty hand situation, the stakes have NOW gone up considerably. Don't really want that either. All in all, it's just easier to train in the gym to destroy that ego and make better life decisions. Thats going to do more to keep you safe than anything really. I think its common sense here that if I have to fight at all (with weapons or not), I've probably made quite a few mistakes severals steps earlier. If perhaps I'd not made them, fighting wouldn't be necessary to begin with.

And I train because its just plain fun. It keeps me in shape and provides my mind and body something to "master". All good things.



Quote:


You have said on a couple occasions that one of the reasons you train groundfighting/bjj is you train for "worst-case" scenario. To me, one major worst case scenario is the opponent has a weapon.





That's a pretty bad scenario to be sure! No doubting that. But that's a mostly unwinable scenario as well (IMO). Like I said, I DO train for empty hand vs. a knife, shank or blunt instrument about once a month. Not much more because I would just run away if faced with that scenario. My entire aim is to ALWAYS escape when possible, regardless of whether my opponent is armed or not.

But realistically, if the guy has a gun, you're screwed, blued and tattooed. I won't even train such a scenario. Some may and you know, that's all good. It's just not for me.


Quote:


If we agree that we are not voluntarily getting into fights, that it is by far best to walk or run away, then the only confrontations we get into are absolutely unavoidable.





I look at it this way; if we keep our noses clean and live a clean life, avoiding trouble when possible (and developed a nose for it), we can do a lot to stay safe. The problem with martial arts for self-defense is the almost universal process of training us to go hands on in about every situation. Duh, that's what martial arts is about. I understand that. But in my view, that's a last ditch scenario after every other option has been eliminated.

If we have lived that clean life and still manage to encounter trouble, then we're dealing with a predator. These people will be sneakier. They wont' tip their hands until it's too late. They will probably be armed and with accomplices. There is no martial art under the sun that will even the odds in that situation. Even drawing a weapon yourself at the point will probably get you killed.


Quote:


Who is to say if you will need a weapon and know how to use it in these situations? Nowadays, even your friday night kegger fights often involve weapons, let alone some obviously deranged guy attacking you in the grocery store parking lot.





Weapons are great. If they weren't, police wouldn't have them. They are the ultimate equalizers. That said, here again are MY views on this topic:

1. Weapons will (often) be drawn on you oftentimes before you will have a chance to draw your's. Drawing your's at this point can get you seriously hurt or killed.

2. Weapons raise the stakes of every little shoving match you may find yourself in. I don't much care for that from a personal point of view. There's a story behind this. It involves me personally. I had the weapon. I may share that one later. This is one of the reasons I don't carry anymore.

3. Carrying a weapon can make a person feel superior. This sometimes gives people more cajones and bravado that they may not ordinarily have. They may be more apt to put themselves into more precarious situations simply because they feel this inflated sense of superiority. Not saying here that everyone will behave this way. But if you don't have control of that ego, this can be a factor. It's always worth consideration.

4. If I'm involved in a "kegger fight" (which I'm not just for these very reasons; alcohol + attitude & ego = potential for violence, especially if there are any women present), I would find an excuse to leave the scene when my "spider senses" tell me that the [censored] is about to hit the fan. That's time to grab your stuff and your friends and LEAVE. Then when the cops come, you're not either dead or in jail. Then I get to wake up in my own bed next to my lady, instead waking up next to Bubba, lol.

5. If I go out, I go to well lit places that aren't isolated. I go to places where there are a LOT of people and thus more potential targets to choose from for the deranged guy in the store parking lot, lol!!! Maybe the guy will choose to attack someone slower than *I* am, lol.

In other words, I just increase my odds again by making better decisions. Thats SO much easier than having to fight my way into and out of everything and every place I go to.

6. I many places these days, you aren't even allowed to carry a weapon. So if the only time I am going to be allowed to carry one is on the street, well, I avoid the street. I'm usually in my car. Car jackings are a problem when you're at an intersection to be sure. But having a weapon while you're seated in an unmoving car is NOT helping you out much in all honesty. In fact, seated in a parked car is one of the worst places you can be. So awareness would then be more of an aid than a weapon would be. In fact, if I'm sitting at a red light and I see a guy approaching in my blind spot (because I'm alert), then I'm driving off. I'll run a red light if need be.

Did I need a weapon in ANY of those above mentioned scenarios? No. I've not needed one EVER in fact. I think I can probably go the rest of my life without needing one as well.


Quote:


I understand this is just your opinion, but I value your opinion. I have read many of your posts and find you to be intelligent and possess practical common sense, so I am curious and am asking you to go a little more in depth into why you feel empty handed training in all 3 ranges is important but weapons training is not.





Well, for me (again) it's a matter of personal choice. I train because it's fun. I find the empty hand stuff so much more fun than the weapon stuff because there is only so much "true" resistance that you can use with weapon on weapon training.

Also as was mentioned, I train to develop my inner strength and confidence. In fact, I'm at a point now where self-defense is no longer a concern of mine. It hasn't been in YEARS. Not in terms of the threat in my face sort of thing anyway.

What I prefer to do is teach civilians to defend themselves by learning how to escape violence. In the professional sector (private security or bouncer-types), you are for the most part not wanting to use weapons. If you're a hospital orderly, you're not wanting to use weapons there either, or you may not even have access to them.

Which leads to one more thing; if you can't fight without weapons, you probably shouldn't rely on them as your first line of defense. Again, just my opinions.

And thanks for the kind words. These things I say may not make any sense to anyone else, but they do to ME, lol. It's getting my point across clearly through this limited medium that is the difficult part.


Thanks for the conversation!


-John
Posted by: KJ63

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 06:31 PM

Very good post John. I follow much of what you have explained, but I'm not making the connection on “training” and “ego.” If you get time could you elaborate more on that point?
Posted by: idaho

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 08:28 PM

John, I agree with KJ63, very good post. And, I agree with your post...I have some followup and would appreciate some advice, but I dont want to totally hijack this thread (sorry Neko) so I will start a new one in the general section. Thx
Posted by: JKogas

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/04/07 11:26 PM

Ego and training......great topic and possibly a quite lengthy one at that because we're moving into psychological realms. BUT, it's one worth discussing actually.

Another thread or here?


-John
Posted by: Neko456

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/06/07 12:25 PM

Realistcally h2h or empty hand situations happen more often then deadly force encounters. In the rare chance that you have use your empty hands several situations could exist and just happened upon U. From bathroom muggings, to being acosted by the street drunk or homeless that you deny help to or you help and they want more, From the same person that pulls your car door open wanting funds or your car unarmed, Overjealous sport fans that wants to fight because his team lost and yours won. None of these start out were deadly force should be used, would sticks help definitely. But how close do you think they will be when you peeing at the bathroom stall or when you walk thru a door and a fist coming your way? Empty hand MA is and should be there when you are almost virtually butt naked, not literally but possible. What I mean is when no weapon is near and the chance of getting armed is remote or would slow your counter.

Of course I believe that if attacked by stick or knife knowing the possibilities or getting armed heightens your chance of survival. But I also know that filipino/indo arts 1st choice of weapon in a close range combat situation is not the stick or pocket knife/dagger its a sword or GUN.

So what I'm saying if h2h encounters are less then 20%-30% chance that you will be surprised and be in the involved in an attack. How often would you say the knife or stick offense or defense would be? .005%, maybe?

If given a chance to be armed in a deadly force situation. Lets say your outside security monitor shows you a home invasion about to happen, My 1st option would be call 911 get armed and lead my family to our safe room.

And I'd hate to say it but I would past right by the stixs, knifes, swords and go with the 12 gauge or & 96 40 caliber Elite. I might be crazy but I don't want to be the one SOL, with a stix or a knife in a gunfight range.

Am I crazy? Are my skills with the sticks and knife that weak that I lack confidence in them or does anybody else agree with me on (any that u like r have) firearms as the choice of weapon here?
Posted by: JKogas

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/06/07 12:33 PM

Neko

I agree with every last bit of your post. Well said.



-John
Posted by: butterfly

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/06/07 01:35 PM

Quote:

Great question! How is it practical? By helping you destroy your own ego so you never feel compelled out of a sense of cowardice to have to fight. If you take care of those demons in the gym (by developing your skill to a high level), you won't be drawn into fighting because of egotistical reasons. So by learning TO fight, you learn how NOT to fight.





BINGO! Reminds me sometimes why I stay around forums at all.

Not only this, but the corollary from your statement is about learning in general. That if ego is gone from the equation, fearing to lose (or your perception of losing as it may appear to others) is gone from the process, and then it is only a matter of taking up as much as you can as well as you can. But not by looking at how badly you were beat...or how well you beat someone else.

I am still learning this, btw.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/06/07 02:25 PM

Hello Neko:

A question asked by most who study "ancient" weapons arts/practices. Those with far greater experience than I will ever possess contend it mandatory for an unarmed art practitioner to study a weapons art.

Weapons magnify flaws in technique, armed/unarmed. The longer/heavier/larger the weapon utilized the greater the revelation ... Weapon study is beneficial use both sides of the brain, develop both sides of the body (ie the weak side)to a more credible developed level.

If nothing else they seriously develop reflexes and awareness which solely by virtue of a weapon focuses us nicely "...yikes, better miss that knife..."

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken ,

Jeff
Posted by: Neko456

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/06/07 02:57 PM

Jeff, the question wasn't does weapon training have any benifts of course it does.

The question was HOW PRACTICAL WAS IS IT?

In short is there a real situation that you may have to beat someone drawing you knife or pulling your sticks from your over the shoulder sling;-) and dealing!!

Or as in the past scenairo with all the modern options how many would wait for the home invaision attempt with stick and dagger in hand?

EVEN if they are only carry stick and knives would you meet multiples on even grounds (in egotiscal MA mindset) these Multiples maybe unskilled but vicious and your family welfares is at stake!!!

In the most simplistic scenario unless you had these weapon in hand whats the chance of them appearing when you need them. And would you want to esculate the threat to deadly force? I personally consider a knife as a untility tool that can be a weapon, the same way I see it while camping. If I'm down to a knife for my only means of self defense I'm in deep do-do!! But glad to have my knife.

Theres many benifit to trad weapon training there little doubt of that Imo, but just like a 500hp Sports Cars how practical is it for every day driving? With gas as high as is and Cops waiting around nearly every bush or corner. When could U use all its 500hp without paying a price?
Posted by: Saisho

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/06/07 05:54 PM

Weapons training is very practical. I have firearms that I would be much more likely to use if my home/family was threatened, but I don't always have them.

Being in and working in Universities, guns are not allowed. I always have my knife. If I don't have it (for some unknown reason), my knife and stick training will allow me the ability to use a lot of substitutes that won't "fire" just because I would rather use a firearm.

More importantly than anything, training in weapons, such as knives and sticks, gives me an understanding and the training to defend against them better than I would be able to having not trained with them.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/08/07 11:48 AM

Thats true and its been mentioned here. But in truth how often are you really going to or want to, have to fight knife to knife?

No doubt in that .005% chance when you may have to, it be nice to have the skills, but wouldn't it be best just to run while he is trying to beat you to the draw? And if he catches you knife fight with him?

Hell chasing you its a good chance he'll drop his knife or can't reach it.
Posted by: KJ63

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/08/07 04:03 PM

Sorry, didn't mean to leave the conversation hanging. I was without my home PC for about 3 days.

Some stats that I found that may give a better perspective. The stats are a little dated but anyway:
Assaults from 1995 to 2002, some 8.5 million crimes
72% simple assault
28% aggravated assault
- 26% of aggravated assaults involved a weapon
-- 40% of these involved a firearm
-- 24% knife, ice pick, scissors, other sharp object
-- 23% blunt object including bats, pipes, martial arts weapons, etc
-- 13% unspecified object including ropes, chains, poison, etc

The FMA I’ve studied would cover the knives and blunt objects, about 47% of the types of weapons used in assaults. Obviously training does not make a person invincible, but being familiar with these things may prevent undo stress from overwhelming you, and allow you to keep a cool head under such circumstances so you can act appropriately… by running.

Several years ago I arrived late to a party. This guy was trying to leave but his car was boxed in. One of the cars behind his was mine so I went out and moved it. Unfortunately there was a car directly behind his that no one came out and moved. After waiting several minutes the guy became irate and that mixed with the alcohol he had consumed lead him to the conclusion that he should get his son’s aluminum baseball bat out of the trunk and smash in the windows of this car blocking his way. I reached in my car and grabbed my Mag flashlight. When I yelled out to the guy to stop, he swung around with the bat in a wide arc coming at me. It seemed to happen so slow… I thought to myself that I’ve seen this same attack hundreds of thousands of times. I couldn’t have planned it any better if I had told the guy to attack me with a number one attack. I was able to deflect the attack and get the bat away from him.

On one hand my training had saved me… on the other hand my training put me in that situation, which could have gotten me seriously injured.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/08/07 05:22 PM

Absolutely, if I have the chance to run, I would. However, I haven't been able to work on my running for a couple of years now and I don't think I would be too good at it. Worse yet, he would catch me and I would be too winded to fight

Forget all of the practicality of it, training with knives and sticks is great fun. Even with just .005% chance of needing it, I still enjoy it.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/08/07 05:29 PM

Quote:

Thats true and its been mentioned here. But in truth how often are you really going to or want to, have to fight knife to knife?





Thats a great question. In my opinion, knife vs. knife is as rare as it gets. Same with stick vs. stick. This is course not saying that such things don't happen, they're just very rare.


Quote:


No doubt in that .005% chance when you may have to, it be nice to have the skills, but wouldn't it be best just to run while he is trying to beat you to the draw? And if he catches you knife fight with him?





It's ALWAYS better to run, imo. Most folks aren't going to chase you very far. Consider that criminals really don't want to work very hard to achieve their objectives. Someone pulls a knife on you and you take off, theirs a great chance that they'll think, "you know what, SCREW this chasing stuff...I'll find another victim that's slower".


Quote:


Hell chasing you its a good chance he'll drop his knife or can't reach it.





Or just realize that chasing is too much like actual WORK as I mentioned.

Good points.


-John
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/09/07 12:25 PM

Great thread...

I believe that weapons training is useful for the mere fact if you happen to have access to the weapon, you'll know how to use it. I started carrying a small lock-blade several yrs ago out of concern for my personal safety. Although staff are not allowed to carry weapons (@ the state mental hospital - penal code section), I was threatened w/ death by a large guy who was there for a number of forcable rapes (add to that an unproved murder - so-called friendly-fire in V.N.). The reason I'm still alive is not the knife but my awareness & precautions. However, I had another option.

How many of us keep a spare tire in our trunk that we've never used? That's how I see my knife. I've used it as a tool several times but never used it in SD. Training the template is also critical. I think about the scene in the movie "Cellular" (I think that's the title)...Kim Basinger is held captive in her attic & the captor attacks her after discovering she's been trying to summon help w/ her cell phone. She cuts his axilary artery (arm pit) & he's thinking WTF as he's ready to bash her. She then tells him that he'll be bleeding out within a couple minutes - she knows this because she's a bio teacher - & he does. (I know, it's just a movie but the concept is true).
Posted by: KJ63

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 08/10/07 03:08 PM

Although I agree with you 100% hedkikr, there was a post in the Martial Arts forum a while back about carrying a knife and it seemed most of the people there disagreed.

Besides it coming in handy opening boxes, cutting knotted shoe laces, and cutting the security tap off of a DVD movie I've bought I have never had to use it in a self-defense situation. It is nice knowing I have an option, and that I know how to use it.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 12/10/07 07:28 PM

Sticks, knives, swords--nuts!

I just carry around a long board with a nail in it.
Posted by: Bunny_Warrior

Re: How practical is training weapons now days? - 12/17/07 08:46 AM

It's practical if you carry a sword or some other weapon around with you all the time