Doce Pares

I will be attending a Doce Pares seminar soon (although I train in Tae Kwon Do and boxing), I have been told its a good oppurtunity that shouldnt be missed as the instructor is 10th dan Danny Guba . I was a bit skeptical at first as i usually am of anyone over 6th dan but from doing a bit of research it is clear he is no phony. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with Doce Pares or has trained with Danny Guba, any info would be much appreciated.

Thanx in advance

i have trained with Guro Danny Guba on a few occasions- he does a sunday afternoon 'mini-seminar' every month at the Cambridge Academy of Martial Arts. He is a very nice guy, and he is also 100% the real deal. He teaches at a fast rate, and part of the fun is just trying to remotely keep up as he blurs and flurries away infront of you looking like its the easiest most natural thing to be doing on a sunday afternoon.

Doce Pares is the only pure form of escrima I have any experience of, so I can't compare it to any other, but I am sure you will have a great time trying it out

I'm hoping to take-up Arnis again after over 10 yrs away from it.

I was initially introduced to the art by a friend who trained under Bustillo (Torrence, CA, USA). We did a lot of back-yard work & after he left the country, I tried to practice w/ a couple of guys (I introduced to the art to them). Both quit. Although I didn't like the occasional rap on the knuckles but I felt that I was starting to get the hang of it.

Well, I have the opportunity of taking it up again, this time closer to home. I spoke w/ a gentleman who teaches out of his home about 5 miles away from my home. He's affiliated w/ Doce Pares. I've researched him & the organizarion on the internet.

Two questions:
1. How does Doce Pares differ from Bustillo's art?
2. How "hard core" is D.P. (I can't afford serious injuries)?

Thanks

BTW: I was introduced to Modern Arnis but found it too tippy-tappy (too much emphasis ons quickness & less on impact). Is that somewhat accurate?

Crikey, i will be totaly honest and tell you that I have no basis for comparison to other systems of Kali/escrima. i do know that to grade in Doce Pares one must show proficiency in requisite patterns (kata, if you will), but also in sparring. This is in body armour, gloves and face guard, and is full contact. Guro Guba (the initial subject of this thread) has been world full contact stick fighting champ on more than one occasion, and the combat element inherent in the art is well represented, but I have never had more than a bruised knuckle or two.
I suppose I would say there is enough 'oomph' to make it interesting and legitemate as a form of fighting, but stops short of dog Brothers style gatherings.
As with every style, I suspect that it is expressed and imparted in different ways by different instructors. Its a cracking system though- your going to love full force double stick work, makes you feel like Jeff Speakman at the start of 'Perfect Weapon'

Doce Pares is a very good art. I have never trained with Modern Arnis people, but it is my understanding that the art is heavily based on Balintiwak, which I have a lot of experience. I refer to Balintiwak as the "karate" of the FMA in that it is very straight forward and does not use a lot of flash.

If you have the opportunity to train in Doce Pares, I would advise it. Don't worry about getting hurt. The use of rattan minimizes the injuries. Oh, it will hurt, but it won't be likely to injur. My daughter received her fair share of hits when she was young and would walk into the training area without anyone seeing her. She is none the worse (although she does kind of walk at an angle to her right )

Thanks for the feed-back. Back then, I never used any kind of protection. Most of the guys I saw @ a tournament used hockey gloves but they were too bulky (& expensive) for me & I couldn't seem to maintain a good grip on the stick.

I am sure they make dedicated gloves by now, as filipino arts have increased in poularity over the last few years, i only ever borrow from the club/classmates, its not my principle style so I havent invested a whole lot of cash in it (a couple of sticks and a training knife). I would think that Cricket gloves (as used in batting) would be better that Hockey gloves as their is more fine motor manipulation in cricket that hockey.

Just came across this vintage film clip on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLL1d9je3o&NR

Comments?

There are a *bunch* of different "flavours" of Doce Pares.

The club was originally founded by 12 different masters, each with their own specialities. The current "multi-style" syllabus taught by GM Diony Canete (Who is GM Guba's current teacher, I believe) incorporates the original styles of corto, or close range (3 different versions), siniwalli, largo mano (long range), sword (single and double), sword/stick and dagger, and single and double knife, as well as empty hand covering striking and grappling.

I recently had a chance to look through the syllabus for the advanced levels, and it includes staff and spear as well...

As you can see, it's pretty comprehensive.

You'll often come across people teaching some aspects and sub-systems. It's still Doce Pares, just not the complete, orginal system.

For example, Richard Bustillo is a senior in GM Cacoy Canete's group. Cacoy's style favours the curving version of corto, or corto curbada, and eskrido or stick grappling. He also teaches other aspects like double stick, but it's not (as I understand it) the primary focus.

Incidentally, Balintawak is also a relative of Doce Pares, as GM Anciong Bacon ( founder of the style) was taught by the Saavedra family, who were early members of Doce Pares. Balintawak is similar to the corto linyar close range style in the multi-style system.

Balintawak differs from Modern Arnis (at least the Balintawak I've trained in) as there is heavy emphasis on power striking, as well as the trapping, or tapi-tapi.

I just spoke w/ the instructor (John Garcia) & will be observing a class tomorrow night. Will keep y'all informed.

That class was canceled but I attended this past Mon.

Some of the basic premises are different & felt odd. For instance:

The trapping hand doesn't follow the stick immediately, it accompanies it in order to grab the opponents stick. Don't know if I want to try that for real or w/ a blade.

The template is different. Instead of #1 being a forward strike to the head (opponents L-side) & #2 a backhand strike to the head (opponents R-side), #1 is a vertical (overhand) strike to the top of the head, #2 is a backhand strike to the opponents head (R-side) & #3 is a forward strike to the opponents head (L-side).

Otherwise it was enjoyable to be crackin' & whackin' again. I'll go back Sat. & keep @ it for a while befor making a decision.

How about this?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MvarVr0ouU&mode=related&search=

Very interesting. Stick fighting is so fast! It was also neat to see Crudelli spar a bit at the end. I saw a lot of Wing Chun coming out of him.

Well, I've been training for about a month now so here's my update:

My previous experience was 14 yrs ago under a student of Bustillio (IMB). The differences between Doce Pares & the other are almost night & day.

First off, the stick is smaller in circumfrance - similar to Modern Arnis. The rationale is that it allows for faster techniques. True enough but the impact is considerably less - that age-old argument of speed vs. power.

Second - Because if the weight/speed factor, DP practices a lot more twirling that go beyond looking fancy. The rationale is that multiple hits @ multiple angles to multiple targets can be accomplished if the practitioner becomes proficient @ twirling.

Third - The template (striking pattern) is different. DP #1 is the top of the head, followed by (target's) R & L head (2&3), ribs (4&5), elbows (6&7), knees (8&9), collar-bone stabs (10&11) & center-line stab (12). I was used to #1&2 being the target's L&R head followed by cooresponding L&R targets down the body.

Fourth - Basics emphasize catching the stick during a block. I don't think I'll ever accept this concept because sticks whiz by so fast, trying to catch a stick is digit-suicide. I was taught that the trapping hand touched/deflected/controled the opponents hand & therefore the stick/knife/bolo. I'm afraid that muscle memory would lead a DP practitioner to inadvertently touch a live blade.

Fifth - DP uses a palm-up trapping hand in mid- and low-line defences. The term "jaws of the crocodile" is catchy & the technique works w/ stick grabbing but if grabbing isn't your thing, I prefer palm-down.

That's about it for now. I realize that as a beginner, I have to wait to see things unfold (so far, some things have made sense w/ practice). However, having prior training & a pretty good grasp of body mechanics, some techniques/concepts just seem a bit weird to me.

I have never grabbed a stick without having stopped it with some other technique. I would consider it a bit risky.

The jaws of the croc is a very good concept. I use it in most of my training.

Risky yes...but to be fair & accurate, I wrote "grab during a block" meaning your stick stops the opponets stick & your checking hand grabs the opponents stick. Even if done perfectly, I'd rather my checking hand intercept the stick-wielding hand (not the stick itself).

The "Jaws" seem very awkward on the low line. Another difference is that DP doesn't utilize techniques for tip-down. I learned tip-down to block/deflect the low-line attacks. Squatting down to do the same seems too awkward & dangerous (leaving the head exposed on a combo strike - knee-head).

Grabbing the stick after a block is also common in Balintawak. I have done it a lot, but as you mentioned before, you have to make sure you don't develop habits that will appear in blade work.

I also agree with the 'tip down' defense. I think a low wing defense is very effective and feels very natural.

My brother and I have been training with single stick for about three months. We train with Dan Inosanto, Paul Vunak, Rick Young, Ted Lucay Lucay and most recently with in the Vee Arnis Jitsu system.

Although all of our isntructors are on DVD's we seem to be progressing wonderfully. The JKD system of the arnis comes from the LaCosta system which Dan Inosanto learned and has incorporated into JKD. We use Rick young, Paul Vunak as back up instructionals although they teach the same system, they each have developed drills for sensitivity and reflex, so having a nice amount of exercises at our current level to practice really keeps us busy and have made the last three months enjoyable.

So far we have trained in only 2 ranges, largo mano(far range) and in mid-range. We decided to use english terminology it less complicates things.

The Lacostas system according to these JKD instructors has 12 points of attack, but we train 5 to start with, it's simpler to teach and train 5, 12 can be for the advance person. At mid range each point has 4 basic blocks and counters, as well as in close range, close range meaning you can use the puno, the blunt tip on the bottom of the stick.

There are no forms in this version of stick fighting, there are exercises and drills, stances are not as important as footwork.

When we want to pracitce with contact as everyone should at some point, we use 14-15 ounce ever last boxing gloves. They serve as good guards protecting the hands and the wrists.

Um, there have been a few accidents, nothing really damaging just extremely painful. So far we have not made contact at long range which is incredible, however, at mid and short range we have banged up our hands while blocking. As many of you know when you swing the stick the actual target is the hand thats holding the weapon. You want to defang the snake at all times, then you have complete targets of oppertunity.

Anways even the slightest tap from the stick can really sting the fingers. I've had bumps grow on my knucks, really weird things. Black and purple bruises from just the slightest of taps.

From watching many examples of stick fighting tournaments, I approach the art from I guess a kendo perspective. I've only recently realize this, strange because I knew in kendo you do not clack swords over and over. The rule is supposed to be one swing one kill. And so it is similar with arnis. I always wondreed why kendo people practice thousands of times for that one perfect swing. Ofcourse in the movies, the sword fighters are chopping off heads and removing limbs with one swipe of their weapons. But in real life the real target is the hand holding the weapon.

It's all about juding distance and timing. Something that mostly happends from long range. Ofcourse this is just my novice interpretation of how arnis should be used. Because the mid and short range stuff seems very complex and tricky, at times nay; infact many times durring mid range blocking exercises I've notice that the sticks clack more than once, meaning with the added retraction of the stick, it is less possible to actually hold someone for even that split second for which you need to do a disarm. Which makes me believe that the mid and short range of stick fighting isn't as essential as long range. however, given that this approach to combat with sticks can be used for any type of weapon from knives, to sticks, swords, daggers, spears and whips. I supposed it is a good idea to take all ranges into consideration.

It sounds like you are taking the initiative and learning what you can where you can. That is good. Make sure you are not trying to get ahead of where you should be in your training. Learning from video leaves no one to keep you in check.

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Anways even the slightest tap from the stick can really sting the fingers. I've had bumps grow on my knucks, really weird things. Black and purple bruises from just the slightest of taps.

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I trained several years with an instructor that is a student of Inasanto and several other well known teachers. In that time, hands were cracked with sticks many times, but I don't remember any weird bumps developing. There was swelling, but nothing major. You might not be holding the stick tight enough. The stronger your grip on the stick, the less damage (even pain) getting hit will cause.