UN warns of brown cloud threat

Posted by: MattJ

UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/14/08 03:33 PM

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.cloud14nov14,0,6699677.story

"BEIJING - A dirty brown haze sometimes more than a mile thick is darkening skies not only over vast areas of Asia but also in the Middle East, southern Africa and the Amazon Basin, changing world weather patterns and threatening health and food supplies, the United Nations reported yesterday.

The huge smog-like plumes, caused mainly by the burning of fossil fuels and firewood, are known as "atmospheric brown clouds." When mixed with emissions of carbon dioxide and other gases blamed for warming Earth's atmosphere like a greenhouse, they are the newest threat to the global environment, according to a report commissioned by the U.N. Environment Program.

"All of this points to an even greater and urgent need to look at emissions across the planet," said Achim Steiner, head of Kenya-based UNEP.

Brown clouds are caused by an unhealthy mix of particles, ozone and other chemicals that come from cars, coal-fired power plants, burning fields and wood-burning stoves. First identified by the report's lead researcher in 1990, the clouds were depicted yesterday as being more widespread and more damaging than previously known.

Perhaps most widely recognized as the haze this past summer over Beijing's Olympics, the clouds have been found to be more than a mile thick around glaciers in Asian mountain ranges.

They hide the sun and absorb radiation, leading to new worries not only about global climate change but also about extreme weather conditions. "All these have led to negative effects on water resources and crop yields," the report says.

Health problems associated with particulate pollution, such as cardiovascular and respiratory diseases, are linked to nearly 350,000 premature deaths in China and India every year, said Henning Rohde, a University of Stockholm scientist who worked on the study. Soot levels in the air were reported to have risen alarmingly in 13 megacities: Bangkok, Beijing, Cairo, Dhaka, Karachi, Calcutta, Lagos, Mumbai, New Delhi, Seoul, Shanghai, Shenzhen and Tehran.

Brown clouds were also blamed for dimming the light by as much as 25 percent in some places including Karachi, New Delhi, Shanghai and Beijing. The phenomenon complicates climate change because the brown clouds also help cool Earth's surface and mask the impact of global warming by an average of 40 percent, according to the report.

Though the brown cloud phenomenon has been studied closely in Asia, the latest findings, conducted by an international collaboration of scientists, reveal that it is not unique to Asia, with pollution hot spots seen in North America, Europe, South Africa and South America.

An international response is needed to deal with "the twin threats of greenhouse gases and brown clouds and the unsustainable development that underpins both," said the lead researcher, Veerabhadran Ramanathan, a professor of climate and ocean sciences at the University of California in San Diego."
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/14/08 07:59 PM

MattJ, the first thing I have to say to you is never, never, trust the U.N. They are an organization filled with evil dictators and corrupt bureacrats. Scandal after scandal comes out of that cesspool, from starving Iraqi people so that various U.N. officials could get rich off of Saddams oil contracts, innapropriate behavior of U.N. peacekeepers with the children of Third world countries and so on. The answer to the brown cloud is A) America is evil, B) America must give the U.N. lots of money so they can "give the money to third world countries" C) Americans must stop being successful because other countries cannot keep up so therefore America must once again give money to corrupt U.N. officials. The environmental movement with its various scares are simply a means by which bad people from other countries can extort money from Americans and other nationalities who for some reason feel guilty about being American or successful or both. Global warming is the king of scams for this effort. I would be curious to see your response. Keep in mind that the U.N. is the most corrupt organization on earth primarily because all of the really bad people see it as an easy way to get their bad deeds done. So please, take it easy, read some opposing views on global warming and these other "environmental problems" and give free thought a chance.
Bill
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/14/08 08:18 PM

Oh OK, Bill. You're one of those crackpot deniers. Got it.

I guess you didn't even so much as glance at the actual text of the article. Note that the article was referring to locations in Africa and Asia. The "brown cloud" is basically what we know in America as smog. It is visible, unlike Global Warming, so there is no doubt about it's occurance. Note also that smog can have a mitigating effect on Global Warming - not that smog is a solution for it.

America was barely mentioned.

And thanks for trying to clue me in about reading up on Global Warming, bro. I never thought of that before.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...95c5054cf6183f5
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/14/08 08:44 PM

I am not a crack pot denier, I am a loud and proud denier of the man made global warming hoax. I am sorry if you believe in it because it will cost you and I more and more of our freedom. America may have been barely mentioned in the article but believe me America will be blamed eventually and then will be expected to pay large sums of tax money to corrupt U.N. officials and corrupt third world governments. Remember, the two scandals I mentioned are only two of the many scandals by this corrupt organization.
You should look into the other side of the global warming hoax because you are being mislead by some silly people. Try the book:
Unstoppable global warming: Every 50,000 years.
The founder of the Weather Channel, John Coleman I think that is his name, has called global warming a hoax. So please, Do not trust the U.N. and don't give away any more of your freedom for a bunch of silliness.
Bill
Posted by: Cord

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/14/08 10:12 PM

Fact: Pollution is not a good thing, irrespective of politics, mankind is a plague, and our waste products are, if not directly harming the balance of the earth, then certainly not helping it.

Fact: The west will jump on any bandwagon that can be used to slow China's economic and industrial development, as their natural resources, developing economic strength, and new found interest in the global market has come at a time when the US and Europe are in a very fragile state, where the main industry is the creation of, and profiting from, private individuals debt.

Any effort and pressure to curtail the Far East's cavalier attitude towards the environment may be seen as welcome, but never forget that the motivation behind that effort is preservation of world power balance, not altruism or concern for the polar bears.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/14/08 10:32 PM

Quote:

I am not a crack pot denier, I am a loud and proud denier of the man made global warming hoax.




There is quite a bit of science behind this hoax, my friend. Most of the deniers are in the pockets of Big Oil or Big Tobacco (Seitz, Christy, etc). Why don't YOU do some research instead of watching Fox News.

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I am sorry if you believe in it because it will cost you and I more and more of our freedom. America may have been barely mentioned in the article but believe me America will be blamed eventually and then will be expected to pay large sums of tax money to corrupt U.N. officials and corrupt third world governments. Remember, the two scandals I mentioned are only two of the many scandals by this corrupt organization.




Lord save us from the corrupt UN! We certainly don't know anything about corruption here in the US! *coughIraqcough* *coughMortgageCrisiscough*

Quote:

You should look into the other side of the global warming hoax because you are being mislead by some silly people. Try the book:
Unstoppable global warming: Every 50,000 years.
The founder of the Weather Channel, John Coleman I think that is his name, has called global warming a hoax. So please, Do not trust the U.N. and don't give away any more of your freedom for a bunch of silliness.
Bill




See above. Your sources are corporate whores who are selling out the environment - and all of our children - for money. Do you even know what junk science is? Junk science is when you START with a conclusion, and then bend, create or ignore facts to support the conclusion, regardless of actual results. You know, like "WMD's in Iraq". That kind of thing.

REAL science starts with a hypothesis, and then tests that hypothesis to see if it is accurate. Then they have peers review it even further. The results may or may not support it, but the facts are what's important.

Seitz, Christy, Fox news, etc........junk science of the highest order.

But in any case, Cord is correct, at the bottom line: Pollution is bad. Regardless of one's feelings about the UN or whatever.
Posted by: Cord

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/14/08 11:49 PM

Quote:

But in any case, Cord is correct, at the bottom line: Pollution is bad. Regardless of one's feelings about the UN or whatever.




Well, I truly believe that there is agenda and 'bad science' used on both sides of this debate, and I dont think that everyone buying a Prius and putting their glass bottles in a recycling bank makes a flying f*ck of a difference to be honest with you. I do know that China is the only country to address the one true cause of mans impact on the environment- overpopulation, and in that respect, they are further ahead than the rest of us who for some reason think its our duty to create more human organisms than our environment can cope with, whilst leaving surplus children in government care just because they are not blessed with our own DNA

Their is no debate that climate change is cyclical- there were no V8's or power stations in the run up to the last Ice age, and we are running on supposition when we consider that this bout of global warming is 'ahead of schedule' as we simply do not know the full history of this lump of rock from big bang , (or gods workshop for you creationists out there), to today.

What I do know is that when I see species and ecosystems destroyed to make way for pasture or roads or housing, it makes me sick that we think we have some arrogant right to put ourselves over other animals.
A lion breaks out of a zoo enclosure and kills a kid- we put down the lion (who didnt want to be there anyway). A kid goes hunting with his dad and kills a deer and gets his photo taken and patted on the back.
Arrogance and hypocricy as a way of life. We deserve to die out as the new dinosaurs we are.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 11:55 AM

Going back to the original topic of the brown clouds, has anyone seen or heard about our so called E-cycling efforts that are winding up in China and contirbuting to this and other environmental problems over there? Alot of our supposed E-cycling isn't recycling at all. We are simply shipping huge quantities of electronics over to China and they are using unsafe methods to dispose of the monitors, computers, and circuit boards that have all kinds of poisons and hazardous chemicals contained within them. Some are simply being openly piled and burned, releasing those toxins into the air and polluting the surrounding areas, in some cases, making villages completely uninhabitable.

I had no idea this was happening until this week. I thought E-cycling was genuine and helping the environment.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 02:02 PM

A couple of facts: the third world will try to use the global warming hoax to cripple the developed world and get the developed world to send them lots of cash. I really feel for the chinese as they use slave labor and one child policies to out compete the west. We have so much to admire them for. And as to corporate whores, that comment is the last refuge of coolade drinkers around the world. The university research scientists are the real whores because they are willing to suck up tax dollars for fake research that is used to keep them and their jobs safe. This goes for the government agencies too that use global warming to demand bigger budgets to increase their own power. That whole the world is overpopulated concept is silly as well. We are not even close to being even remotely overpopulated. To Razorfoot, this is the history of government intervention in large overly complex issues. They will get it wrong and screw it up every single time. As far as Iraq goes, please, try to develop some wisdom and not just absorb what the simpletons on the BBC or CNN tell you. Iraq was an optional war the way the invasion of Austria was an optional war for Europe before world war two. If the girly-men of Europe had taken care of business then, a lot of people would have lived past the 1940's. Thank the lord President Bush did what needed to be done.
Bill
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 02:10 PM

MattJ, that was a nice description of the scientific method. You should send it to all of the scientists who are perpetuating the man made global warming hoax for their own profit. Maybe you can shame them into telling the truth.
Bill
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 03:07 PM

Bill, the level of denial you are showing is staggering. I am not going to get into a Global Warming debate with you, since I already done so in the thread link I posted, which you clearly haven't read. Which is also typical.

I will also not get into GW Bush's legacy as a president - the American people have spoken clearly in that regard.

The deniers do not have a leg to stand on unless you can come up with a comparably large, peer-reviewed study that refutes the IPCC report. But there isn't one, so all you folks can do is make knee-jerk, emotional, finger-pointing outbursts like the ones above, without a shred of fact to go with them.

I do feel sorry for you sir.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 04:09 PM

Where is JohnL when you need him? I do believe his trademark statement could be put to good use here.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 04:46 PM

Holy Right Wing nut Jobs Batman!

Imagine how he is going to react when someone explains to him the US Military is a Socialist Organization!
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 04:55 PM

MattJ. Your gullibility is really amazing but time will tell. Yes, the millitary is a socialist organization and from my experience with it I would rather that its socialist organization be kept in the millitary and not unleashed on civillians through restrictive government programs. And believe me when I say this, history will be far kinder to George Bush than the people of his time were. The new guy maybe not so much.
Bill
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 05:09 PM

Damn...one mention of the word socialism or liberal usually sends these guys into a meltdown...guess I'll have to find my fun elsewhere today.

PS...The whole Global Warming thing...that debate has been over for a long time, at least among people who are entitled to an opinion, you might want to find a new cause to rant about....just a thought.
Posted by: Cord

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 05:24 PM

Quote:

A couple of facts: the third world will try to use the global warming hoax to cripple the developed world and get the developed world to send them lots of cash. I really feel for the chinese as they use slave labor and one child policies to out compete the west. We have so much to admire them for.




They are only copying what Britain did at the time of the first industrial revolution- everything our 'civilised' societies have today come from the same exploitation tactics. Who are we, having gained so much from walking that path, to criticise the far east from treading in our footsteps?
Also, I would be careful about calling China and Asia in general '3rd world', because we are currently far behind them in finance, education and healthcare, not to mention crime and social problems.
It wont be long till the US/Europe partnership is no longer the alpha force in global affairs, and we had all better get used to that.

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And as to corporate whores, that comment is the last refuge of coolade drinkers around the world. The university research scientists are the real whores because they are willing to suck up tax dollars for fake research that is used to keep them and their jobs safe.




I work for Cambridge University, and can tell you that Research grants are far, far less lucrative than private sector employment. All who stay within academic life put back in by way of tutoring/lecturing undergrads- not out of altruism, but to supplement their incomes out of necessity.
They have chosen to stay in this environment to avoid pressure from outside investors/vested parties to come to predetermined conclusion.

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That whole the world is overpopulated concept is silly as well. We are not even close to being even remotely overpopulated.




Nonsense. Our 'natural' lifespan, as an organism, is around 40-50 years. Our scientific developments now mean that we live on average nearly twice that. We used to require large families as infant mortality was high, and also pre-technology society was labour intensive. Now we keep blobs of flesh alive in incubators till they breath on their own, and the majority of us mill around on the earth's crust justifying our existance in unproductive fields of work, obsessed with what we can acquire, not we have accomplished, confusing the two in the process. More of us, using more, wanting more,destroying more, whilst doing less, and achieving less. We need to be culled.

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If the girly-men of Europe had taken care of business then, a lot of people would have lived past the 1940's.




Same could be said of the uninterested men of the US who didnt didnt show up till 1942, better late than never all round though eh?

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Thank the lord President Bush did what needed to be done.




You know, what needed to be done was to wipe out Bin Laden and his infastructure as a direct response to the 9/11 attacks, everything else has been a BS campaign to control natural resources we have no inherent rights to. Why do we need them so badly? Oh yeah, because our natural resources will not sustain us- want to talk about overpopulation again
Posted by: Christy

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 06:10 PM

uhm...MattJ, are you trying to bash me because of my remark in that 'Obama' thread? Just trying to clarify. You mention "seitz, Christy,.." twice in regard to some right wing type entity. Maybe you're talking about something completely different? Dunno, please clear this up.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 08:26 PM

Thank you Cord.

Christy -

I was referring to John Christy, noted skeptic and minority viewpoint contributor to the IPCC report. Please check the link I posted earlier. I don't tolerate uninformed bullsh1t, but I don't hold grudges, either.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 08:48 PM

Kimo 2007 the real debate is just beginning. When I was growing up in the seventies it was the threat of global cooling. Try these sources for the debate that is over:

The Deniers, By Laurence Solomen which will give the names of scientists who doubt the hoax.
The Really Inconvenient Truth, by Iain Murray
Unstoppable Global Warming:Every 50,000 years, By Dennis Avery and S. Fred Singer.
Red Hot Lies By Christopher Horner( I heard him interviewed last week on Dennis Millers radio show)
And for a quick read on these subjects, The Politically Incorrect Guide on Global Warming, Which takes apart the IPCC report in one chapter.
As far as the overpopulation silliness goes, we can pack everyone on earth into the state of texas and have the same population density as New York city. If you'll notice as well, as societies become industrialized and wealthy the population starts to slow. You should read Mark Steyn's book America Alone, where he looks at the declining populations in the western industrial societies. I also have to say you are a bit of an elitist Cord for placing the judgement on how others make a living. Perhaps we should establish a committee to decide which lives are actually worth maintaing and then, if they fail to meet your judgement we could make them disapear. It never takes people on the overpopulated earth and global warming side of the argument very long to get to the lets get rid of large numbers of useless people so the enlightened people can live guilt free meaningful lives. If you notice, the guys on your side started the name calling first and you yourself have called for killing innocent people because they don't have intrinsic value. These are the ideas and thoughts I am talking about with the global warming and anti-population hoaxes. In each case they lead down the road of re-education camps and to killing people who do not think right. Shame on you Cord, even if you are a moderator.
Bill
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 09:42 PM

Well Bill,

If you read my statement, I said "people who are entitled to an opinion". I can see simply by your reading and reaction to Cords post, that you are not one of those people. I mean you practically have him building gas chambers, and if you draw that conclusion from his post, then I am really not much interested in your viewpoint on anything.

I put people like you in the catagorie of people who deny the Holocaust...you just don't get a seat at the table.

Anyway, enough about this. This is a MA site, not a political site so this thread should be shut down shortly.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 09:55 PM

Jeez, all this BS. Shame on you, Bill, for being a knee-jerk emotionally driven person who refuses to see facts. Let me real quick burst some bubbles for you.

Solomen and the list of doubters? Whatever, bro. There were more believers than doubters, wasn't there? Case closed. Next.

Ian Murray. He makes some valid points in his list of 25, but also some points that have been refuted in my previous link. Read for yourself. Some of his points are just laughable. Coral has been around a long time, so it will live on? BUT IT ISN'T. THAT'S THE POINT. Next.

Avery, Singer, and The Heartland Institute? Are you facking joking? Why not mention Seitz and Christy, too. Politically motivated in the extreme:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institute

"The Heartland Institute, according to the Institute's web site, is a nonprofit organization "to discover and promote free-market solutions to social and economic problems".[1] Heartland campaigns against what it refers to as "junk science"; supports "common-sense environmentalism", such as opposition to the the Kyoto protocol aimed at countering global warming and promoting genetically engineered crops and products; it supports the privatization of public services; it opposes tobacco control measure such as tobacco tax increases and denies the health effects of second-hand smoke; it supports the introduction of school vouchers;, and it promotes the deregulation of health care insurance. Heartland also hosts PolicyBot, which it refers to as the "Internet's most extensive clearing-house for the work of free-market think tanks". The database contains 22,000 documents from 350 U.S. right-wing think tanks and advocacy groups.[2]

In March 2008 the Heartland Institute hosted what was referred to as The 2008 International Conference on Climate Change.[3]

The institute was founded in 1984 by David H. Padden and Joseph L. Bast.
"

Not even in the same galaxy as an multi-national, peer-reviewed, long term study like the IPCC report.

PLEASE STOP BELIEVING EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON FOX NEWS. My God, how many times do I have to say that?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 10:35 PM

some more detailed info and satelite pics...from NASA:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/earthandsun/brown_cloud.html
Posted by: Cord

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/15/08 11:20 PM

Quote:

As far as the overpopulation silliness goes, we can pack everyone on earth into the state of texas and have the same population density as New York city.




Good grief, if this is your criteria for overpopulation, then you are painfully stupid. Its got nothing to do with population density, its about the balance of requirements against the resources to sustain them, combined with the resultant dmage to bio-diversity that ensues when the balance is lost. That is the criteria used in population management, as controlled by man, for every species on earth, apart from man himself. That is a blind spot created by human superiority complex, further clouded by religious dogma, neither of which I am bound by. Dont like it? tough.

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If you'll notice as well, as societies become industrialized and wealthy the population starts to slow.




But not in direct proportion to increase in life expectancy, and that is why you still get population growth, not sustainance.

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I also have to say you are a bit of an elitist Cord for placing the judgement on how others make a living.




Please show me where I removed myself from the argument? I know I am a drain on the resources of the earth, it plays a pivotal part in my decision not to breed. My conviction sees my family name die with me- aside from spouting conflicting extremist politics, what have you done to live by your convictions?

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If you notice, the guys on your side started the name calling first and you yourself have called for killing innocent people because they don't have intrinsic value.




I have merely pointed out that we do not apply population management to ourselves, thus making our stance hypocritical. As for 'intrinsic value' I am not sure any of us have such a thing- we exist because our parents f*cked and now we have to muddle through as best we can. The truth is that the vast majority of humans make little or no individual positive impact on the world, anymore than one bee or ant stands out from another. Like any social creature, we rely on the masses to make an impact, and our history shows that, in the context of the planets well being, that impact has been negative.

Just as the dinsoaurs dominated their environment, so have we, and to think that Nature will not restore balance in the same way, to believe that we are above the natural order of the story of this rock floating in space, is just more human folly.

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Shame on you Cord, even if you are a moderator.
Bill




Boo hoo. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 12:04 AM

What is it with you guys. Can't you argue without swearing or name calling. Cord, since you are so concerned with resource management why don't you take the obvious step that you advocate for so many others and manage yourself so that others may use the resources wasted on you. I like the Heartland Institute. It's a great resource for cutting through the lies of the global warming and overpopulation coolade drinkers. Nasa? It's not as if they could possibly use global warming as an excuse to increase their budget, especially in the light of tight budgets with tax increases on the way. Thanks Cord, you have done more to demonstrate the ignorance and mean spiritedness of your side than I could have done. Try reading Mark Steyn, you may learn something. Oh, since this is a martial arts site try that whole empty your cup concept, it will aid in your finally finding some wisdom to go with your education. As far as peer reviews go, how good is a peer reviewed article when most of the people doing it are either fellow believers or looking to push an agenda that hurts industrialized nations and helps transfer wealth to their favorite third world charity cases. They also shut down any attempts to disagree with them by getting people fired or keeping them from getting tenure. To the casual reader, please look into these topics. Universities are havens for political correctness that is aimed at silencing free thought and free speech. Goodnight.
Posted by: Cord

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 12:21 AM

Quote:

Cord, since you are so concerned with resource management why don't you take the obvious step that you advocate for so many others and manage yourself so that others may use the resources wasted on you.




I advocate population control through management of birth rate, much as China has at least attempted. To that end, I have managed myself- crikey, you should really try reading what people post as opposed to just thinking about your next post

I neither swore at you, nor called you any names. Did you watch the link at the end of my post? I come at things from a different perspective than you, I consider it more enlightened, but then I would, as it is mine.

Nice of you to acknowledge that I am educated. The problem with jumping up and down telling people to read another persons work, is that it only highlights your own acknowledgement that you are unable to present your beliefs for yourself.
I prefer never to buy into anyone elses view of life wholesale, as I am confident enough to have my own. This also leaves you wonderfully un-invested in political and religious ideology, allowing you to find truth whatever the source.
This tends to be a less foolish way of doing things than spouting on about coolaid and accusing people of advocating genocide.

Anyway, good luck plotting against Obama, or your local University, or whatever else it is you have lined up for the day, it certainly has been interesting reading your views.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 09:41 AM

Quote:

What is it with you guys. Can't you argue without swearing or name calling.




I sincerely apologize for that. When I see people make non-rational, emotional judgements, it tends to bring out the same in me. Apologies.

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Cord, since you are so concerned with resource management why don't you take the obvious step that you advocate for so many others and manage yourself so that others may use the resources wasted on you.




Just like this. Did you just tell Cord to kill himself? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your argument lacks any substance, so you take a very mean-spirited, emotional line of response.

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I like the Heartland Institute.




Again, the emotion with no objectivity. You like them, so they must be right. FYI, I don't like the UN, but the scope and objectivity of the IPCC report is impossible to ignore to any rational mind. There were around 100 different country's scientists that participated, so the chance of it being skewed one way or another is pretty slim. Especially compared to........

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It's a great resource for cutting through the lies of the global warming and overpopulation coolade drinkers.




As I mentioned, the Heartland Institute is a hardcore, far-right, idealogically driven organization that regards real science the way vampires regard mirrors.

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Nasa? It's not as if they could possibly use global warming as an excuse to increase their budget, especially in the light of tight budgets with tax increases on the way.




This is a ridiculous strawman argument. Nowhere has ANYONE mentioned NASA. What is your point here? Nevermind - I don't care.

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Thanks Cord, you have done more to demonstrate the ignorance and mean spiritedness of your side than I could have done. Try reading Mark Steyn, you may learn something.




What Cord will learn about Mark Steyn is that Steyn is a far-right crank who thought that Obama was a muslim (wrong), justified the Serbian ethnic cleansing (scary), and regularly appears on the Rush Limbaugh (drug-addicted far-right hypocrite) show. Nuff said.

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Oh, since this is a martial arts site try that whole empty your cup concept, it will aid in your finally finding some wisdom to go with your education.




This is simply sad or funny, but certainly ironic.

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As far as peer reviews go, how good is a peer reviewed article when most of the people doing it are either fellow believers or looking to push an agenda that hurts industrialized nations and helps transfer wealth to their favorite third world charity cases.




1000 scientists from 100 countries over 10 years. You are certain they ALL had the same motivation to politically skew the results?

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They also shut down any attempts to disagree with them by getting people fired or keeping them from getting tenure. To the casual reader, please look into these topics. Universities are havens for political correctness that is aimed at silencing free thought and free speech. Goodnight.




Gabble.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 10:58 AM

Quote:

I advocate population control through management of birth rate, much as China has at least attempted.




While I understand your reasoning, it does pose a rather large problem if you control population growth.

The economic and social organizations in the market economy require a certain amount of growth to sustain the society. Currently Europe is around 1.4 children per household, but in order to sustain your economy you need to be at around 2.2 (these numbers are from memory so excuse me if they are not spot on). The point being if you do not sustain growth you will not be able to fund your society and collapse of the economy and eventually the government is the endgame if it continues.

The US is at around 2, but because of immigration our population is still on track (explain that to some folks, that the immigrants are saving the nation..LOL)

Japan is in peril, they are around 1.1, and they do not encourage immigration, in fact it is very difficult to even work in Japan for a long period of time...so they are in big trouble.

That does not address the issue of resources and the "foot print" left by humans on the planet. Those things are quite addressable, except there is such intense opposition from certain groups (for reasons I have yet to grasp).

But the answer from what I understand is not to have more kids, but to redistribute the people we already have. So many nations have populations they cannot support, and we have nations in need of growth...ironic isn't it?
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 11:05 AM

Kimo2007, the population growth figures you are using are the main point of Mark Steyn's book America Alone. He goes into great detail about the declining population of western industrialized nations and their effect on the war on terrorism. You can also catch him every thursday on the Hugh Hewitt radio show so you can see for yourself the sort of person he actually is. His sense of humor is great and he explains things really well.
Bill
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 11:40 AM

Sorry Bill,

I cannot trust anything that man has to say. He is so clearly a partisan hack and among the group of people who have destroyed political discourse in this country. He may have latched on to a report on population, but you can be sure he only embraced it's findings because it served his ends.

You have to understand that if you continue to reference these people, that no one will take you seriously, because these are not serious men. The use a specific formula, to appeal to a specific base. You can't get more unreliable information then that.

These are the people who coined the phrase "real Americans" as if all the other Americans weren't really Americans, which demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension of what America is.

Seems to me you have been "Hannitized" but I hear they make a cream for that.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 01:14 PM

Kimo2007 I find that individuals on your side have destroyed reasonable debate in this country on a variety of topics:

MattJ, called me a crack pot, called educated knowlegeable dissenters corporate whores(first, I responded in kind), swore on an open site 3 times and called my reasoned discussion knee-jerk.

Cord, Swore twice on an open site, called people blobs of flesh, called for the culling of these blobs of flesh(murder)because they were unproductive, complemented china's policy of one child per couple.

Kimo2007, you declared that I was not entitled to an opinion, Insinuated that because I doubt the truth of global warming I would also deny the holocaust.

It would seem to me that you guys are intolerant of debate and scientific inquiry that goes against your belief systems and you resort to name calling right out of the box to silence that debate. Everyone I mention by name with the material they have brought to light is either a corporate whore, or a right wing hack. So much for polite debate. Here are a couple more right wing hacks for you to attack:
Michael Crichton, Global Warming questioner.
**Vaclav Klaus the president of the Czech republic (article online at Ft.com June 13 2007 about the dangers of the modern Environmental movement and its threat to freedom).
The people who question global warming science simply seek to know the truth and do not attempt to silence the various research and opinions out there. The believers in global warming have a strong tendency to just claim that the debate is over, give up your cash and your freedom to politicians, bureacrats and journalists. Try to open your minds or at least be more civil in your arguments.
Well, its the middle of November and the snow is starting to sprinkle here in the northern part of the U.S. We are entering a period of global cooling like the 1970's so there will be colder temps. and more snow. It has been fun arguing with you guys, have a nice week.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 01:59 PM

I just can't deny the fun of this headline from the Drudge report today 11/16/08 from the Telegragh.co.U.K. about Nasa screwing up the temperature reading for October and Al Gores chief scientist claiming that this Last October was the warmest on Record based on temperature readings form Russia. **They got it wrong because they simply carried over the temp readings from previous months and the reality is we are experiencing colder temps and early snow falls in several places around the world. I know that the telegragh reporters are just corporate whores and right wing hacks(I thought I would save time here by making the accustion myself as a courtesy to my global warming believing friends out there) but this is just typical of the "debate is over" attitude of the people who believe in manmade global warming. See for yourself, go to The Drudge Report, he simply links to the news its not his report. Or look up the Telegragh from the U.K.
Please look into all aspects of this debate out there. The research is not done, its not conclusive and the debate is definitely not over. Now for real, see you later.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 02:12 PM

I know, I keep coming back but it just gets better and better! The group used for the false stats on October Temps is one of four groups used to generate stats for the famed I.P.P.C. united nations report. So Please MattJ, look at this report with an open mind go to the Telegragh website and look at this information. Just try to have an open mind. Remember it was highlighted on the Drudge Report on 11/16/08 and it concerned a report on Nasa getting global warming statistics wrong. I mention this again for people who read the last post first.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 02:17 PM

Once again, having scanned the article further the chairman of the I.P.P.C. was caught making inaccurate statements about the rise of global temperatures his name is Dr. Pachauri( he is in the article so you can and should look at it on your own to make up your own mind) It also mentions that Al Gores Scientist, the leader of the modern movement was mistaken as well. It is odd how things work out sometimes. Are these guys right wing hacks or corporate whores or are they just wrong? What do you think Kimo2007, Mattj and Cord?
Posted by: Christy

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 04:04 PM

cord wrote: ...Anyway, good luck plotting against Obama or your local university or whatever else it is you have lined up for the day, it certainly has been interesting reading your views.


Geez Cord, I think your just [censored] because you couldn't vote for him. Don't worry though, in a couple years the U.K will likely get the chance to elect a Pakistani-muslim PM. I'm sure you'll be first in line to vote for him.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 04:36 PM

Christy -

You are very close to sounding like some kind of ignorant racist. I trust you can explain your little comment?

bcihak -

I'm not going to waste time debunking more of your right-wing BS sources. Find me something that is NOT obviously and blatantly partisan, and I'll consider it. Until then, all you have is obfuscation and picking pepper out of flysh1t, which I will ignore. The vast majority of scientists - not just climate scientists - agree that Global Warming seems to be real, and that man-made activities are having an impact on it.

Again, when you can show me something comparable to the IPCC report that refutes it, you will have my attention.

*holds breath*
Posted by: Christy

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 05:53 PM

Oh OK.

"you are very close to sounding like some kind of ignorant racist"

Well if it isn't the standard battle-cry of the garden variety, hypocritical, politically-correct bully.

There was nothing ignorant or racist about my remark. Grow a thicker skin. Big baby.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 08:31 PM

Are you kidding MattJ. The article in the Telegragh today, Sunday november 16, 2008 specifically sites errors in the I.P.P.C. report and mentions that the chairman of the I.P.P.C. was caught making inaccurate statements about the global warming statistics. And you won't take a look? Please, before you wave that report around again you might want to check your sources because when you look around for information about global warming opinions there are more than your 1000 scientists who are skeptical or at least curious at some level. Like I said before, the debate is not over and your report is not the last word on the subject.
Bill
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 08:48 PM

Christy -

Quote:

Well if it isn't the standard battle-cry of the garden variety, hypocritical, politically-correct bully.

There was nothing ignorant or racist about my remark. Grow a thicker skin. Big baby.




Politically correct? Clearly you don't know me very well. Why would you bring up nationality and religion to Cord? Oh, right. Because you are a right-wing piece of sh1t racist. How's that for politically incorrect? Get bent.

bcihak -

Quote:

Please, before you wave that report around again you might want to check your sources because when you look around for information about global warming opinions there are more than your 1000 scientists who are skeptical or at least curious at some level. Like I said before, the debate is not over and your report is not the last word on the subject.




I never said it WAS over, sweetheart. Finding one or two mistakes in a giant, 10 year, peer-reviewed repot doesn't invalidate the whole thing. You are picking pepper out of flysh1t as I mentioned before. It is the best and most objective report to date, unless you know of a comparab......oh the hell with it. You know!
Posted by: Christy

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 09:22 PM

MattJ-

Thanks for proving my point for me. (- )

Now go buy yourself some preparation-H, take a deep breath, and think happy thoughts about green living.
Posted by: Ames

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/16/08 10:47 PM

Christy, I agree with Matt, your comment comes very near to racism.

I'd like to remind you that discussions of race are against the forum rules.

Stick to the topic please.

--Chris
Posted by: JasonM

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/17/08 12:48 AM

I thought the same thing as Matt and Chris.

Chisty, were you comparing Obama to a muslim? I am curious what your statement truly meant.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/17/08 02:26 AM

This thread has clearly taken on a political agenda.

I hate to see this site go this way because it spills over into other discussions. I like the rule about no religious or political discussion and I wish the mods and admin would make everyone adhere to it.
Posted by: grumbleweed

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/17/08 03:57 AM

<<Soot levels in the air were reported to have risen alarmingly in 13 megacities: Bangkok, >>

good grief, exiting bangkoks airport terminal and taking in that first steaming hot polluted breath of air is glorious....its like, 'i'm home again' (sorry cord for using the thread to interject a travelism, i cant resist it, anyway, everyone is getting awfully pugnacious!), i hope it never becomes a paragon of cleanliness and purity like salzburg
Posted by: Cord

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/19/08 02:32 PM

Good grief, OK, a few responses, by way of clarification.

BC,
If you are going to complain about 'conduct unbecoming' in someone else, be sure that you yourself are not hurling boulders from a house of glass.
You dislike me referring to humans in a dispassionate way, yet you are the one who refers to the Iraq war as an 'optional war'. Anyone who respects the sanctity of life would not condone a war that was anything other than unavoidable, but then, its easy to send people to war from the comfort of your armchair isnt it?

Christy,
A strange response indeed. My, somewhat glib, attempt at humour was aimed squarely at BC, based on some rather fancifull views he holds regarding the motivations and machinations of University research (in the UK, at least), along with his reactionary right-wing conspiracy silliness.

As for my personal political beliefs, they are not represented by the very systems we have ruined, and so I do not vote.

When someone uses democracy to give the people what they want, as opposed to spending time trying to convince the majority to want what they offer, then I will be first in the voting booth, and I wont care if they are a transexual smurf, as long as they are more interested in positive use of power than the power itself.

We spend so much time pimping democracy on other cultures as if it is the holy grail, that we dont stop and look at what we are doing with it.

If we worked harder on improving our own societies, not attacking others, then other parts of the world may come to see the benefit of the system on their own.

At the moment, we are a door to door salesman, forcing people to buy faulty goods at gunpoint.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/19/08 05:35 PM

Actually, I'm not the one that refers to the Iraq war as an optional war. That is what many anti-war people are calling it. I believe it is a necassary war the way Germany's invasion of Austria was. The Europeans did nothing at the time. The reasons they did nothing were many and in a lot of ways valid at the time, but history shows that doing nothing was actually a mistake. You know that old line about not studying history.
Bill
Posted by: Christy

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/19/08 10:03 PM

Cord-

I see your point, and I humbly apologize for my remark to you. A bad attempt at being a smart-a55 on my part, too.

MattJ-

You called me a right wing, racist piece of sh1t, and told me to get bent. Aside from the fact that there was nothing even remotely racist in my remark, you had no right to slander me like that. I think you are the one who is actually the racist. Thou doth protest just a bit too much, I think.

And I might ask why the moderators chose to jump on me for my remark rather than MattJ for his open hostility and slander...

But again, my apologies to Cord, as I'm not too big to admit that i was out of line. Peace.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/20/08 07:22 AM

Quote:

I think you are the one who is actually the racist. Thou doth protest just a bit too much, I think.




You keep thinking that. That would be consistent with your general line of denial. Your pretty language doesn't hide the ill in your thoughts. I call it like I see it.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/20/08 08:46 AM

Quote:

I believe it is a necassary war the way Germany's invasion of Austria was.




Really? Because Iraq had been shooting at our planes for a decade and never managed to hit one, so exactly how were they a threat to us?

How long did it take to overthrow that nation? A week? How many innocent people are now dead, thanks to American weapons? And please don't give me the Sadam killed x number of people, he was a bad guy, we all get it. But that doesn't give us the right to kill those people.

Oh and lets talk about how the war was waged....screw the Powell doctirne, we know a better way to wage war....(ever been in a war?...no...ever served in the military...no...so why again are you qualified to run things? Please remind me because for the life of me, I don't understand.

Bill, the reason people will not a have a "civil" debate with you, is because your views are not civil, or plausable on even the most basic of levels. That and many of us are tired of the crap your sources spew getting airtime and having impact on our society.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/21/08 06:27 PM

well, Kimo2007, I have been in the millitary but I have not gone to war. Well, in the United States the civillians are in charge of the millitary and so any American can comment on what their millitary is doing. Usually though, people on my side support our troops and do not try to undercut their success on the battlefield against evil killers. Kimo2007, you cord and Mattj are the people who could use lessons in civility. Right out of the box people like you are swearing, insulting the people you are addressing and being rude. My sources are great men and women who do their research and simply have different viewpoints on important issues. It is often said that conservatives think liberals are just wrong, while liberals think conservatives are evil. You guys demonstrate this all the time. You guys need to grow up. By the way, this forum may have kids on it so please stop swearing out there. The moderators should do more to stop the swearing than they do and even the words that have substitutions in the middle of them.
Bill
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/21/08 10:02 PM

I think 'evil' was a term popularized by the right during this decade, wasn't it? a way to keep open-ended war active by using undefinable terms like: "we will continue to fight this war on terror and stop the evil-doers..."

'evil-doers' = anyone who disagrees?


and in your first post, first sentance on this thread:
Quote:

the first thing I have to say to you is never, never, trust the U.N. They are an organization filled with evil dictators and corrupt bureacrats.




YOU use the 'evil' term in a way that demonstrates the dumb fear-mongering 'evil-speak' propaganda this decade has seen abused by playing on people's 9/11 fears, was bought into hook-line-and-sinker by the (now minority) 40% of US people like you.

grow up and stop being rediculous. you sound like a holocaust denier.

look, the 'brown cloud' is smog. and a whole lot of it. if you want to deny smog, go to Bombay or Shanghai during the summer and take a deep breath. btw, NASA doesn't photoshop their satellite pictures, the 'from space' views given earlier was showing the smog.

'smog' is not vitamin C. It doesn't give you nutrients, and plants/animals don't like it either. it's what reasonable humans consider 'bad for ya', and the basic goal is to reduce the bad stuff in order to make life 'better' - another term commonly used by the reasonable people.

does smog contribute to global warming? I'd have to guess and say, ah-yup. I don't know for sure, but I do know the anti-liberal right are probably just acting on their homophobic fears when they say things like global warming is caused by the AIDS quilt.

same rediculousness applies: they say pollution levels are't all that bad, since they are trying to lesson restrictions (and therefore increase take-home pay) for their CEO cronies. Their only obstical is making more than 50% of the people believe that the one's disagreeing with them are 'anti-American', 'Evil', or whatever other label invokes an emotive response.
The ones loosening pollution restrictions are the ones living in air-purified mansions on rolling hills in the countryside, not the ones living near power lines, oil fields or factories.

you've been had. wake up and smell the smog for what it is: garbage in the air. Want to argue on the side of allowing the rich to put more garbage in the air with no accountabilty, and don't mind higher temperatures? Have them buy you a one-way ticket to Venus and get off our g'damn planet, ditto-head.

Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/21/08 10:22 PM

Well, ed, I think evil doer applies to the people who let people in Iraq die because they were looking the other way when Saddam was killing his people and paying people to kill Israelis. Why did they do this? for oil contracts from Saddam. I think evil doer applies to the people at the U.N. who look the other way or refuse to deal with U.N. peacekeepers abusing children. The list of abuses and scandals is quite large. Oh, I really think that the term evil doer applies to the men who killed 3000 americans, blew up trains and hotels, behead people that they have captured and tortured blow up pizza parlors, shoot rockets on a daily basis into israel, hijack oil tankers, strap bombs on and detonate them in crowds of innocent people, knife women on buses because they have decided not to be muslim anymore, knife and shoot artists who make movies about the mistreatment of muslim women and on and on. And, oh ya, they haven't decided to stop doing any of these things and in fact believe that they are going to heaven for doing these things. But yah, I disagree with you on manmade global warming and high taxes and the role of government as do the people I read and listen to. So yah, were actually the "evil" people. And once again, what is it with you simple minded fools. What is it with the holocaust denial accusations, name calling and swearing. Can't you discuss controversial subjects without using the simplistic tactic of calling the other guy a holocaust denier, crackpot, rightwing hack, homophobe, or any of the other silly things you use instead of dealing with those who disagree with your point of view in a civil way. You guys are just lame and pathetic.
Much love,
Bill
(oh, one more thing, how old are you guys? Twelve? you sure act like you're on the low end of the age range. )
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/21/08 11:07 PM

I know you live for this type of abuse, so here ya go:

Quote:

Well, ed, I think evil doer applies to the people who let people in Iraq die because they were looking the other way when Saddam was killing his people and paying people to kill Israelis.



don't read history do you? The US supplied Saddam with the chemical warfare and other 'evil' technology during the 70's when it was fighting Iran. It was THOSE weapons that Sadaam later used against his own people. what did the US do? nothing. they knew it was happening, they ignored it. until 15 years later, when it suited them to pick a fight, they choose to bring it up and hang him for it. He definitely deserved to be hanged - but he wasn't really executed for doing evil things to his own people, he was removed for US convienence in securing oil lines.

Quote:


I think evil doer applies to the people at the U.N. who look the other way or refuse to deal with U.N. peacekeepers abusing children. The list of abuses and scandals is quite large.



same case can be made against any church that has a choir-boy with priest mentors. because some priests abuse children, are all churches evil?
The answer is to correct the individuals, not scrap the whole institution. Change makes it's way in today's world thru international laws and surgical strikes - not gagging, ignoring and carpet-bombing.


Quote:


Oh, I really think that the term evil doer applies to the men who killed 3000 americans, blew up trains and hotels, behead people that they have captured and tortured blow up pizza parlors, shoot rockets on a daily basis into israel, hijack oil tankers, strap bombs on and detonate them in crowds of innocent people, knife women on buses because they have decided not to be muslim anymore, knife and shoot artists who make movies about the mistreatment of muslim women and on and on. And, oh ya, they haven't decided to stop doing any of these things and in fact believe that they are going to heaven for doing these things.



So it stands to reason that you also would think that the term evil doer applies to the men who ordered military who killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, blew up trains and hotels and homes, kill people that they have captured and tortured, blow up mosques, shoot rockets on a daily basis, comandeer oil fields, detonate bombs on innocent people, rape women in mosques because they have decided to be muslim, punish and jail artists/citizens/scientists who speak out and on and on. And, oh ya, they haven't decided to stop doing any of these things and in fact believe that they are going to heaven for doing these things.

works both ways when you throw the 'evil' term around. it's a matter of perception and point of view.

I think it was Gandhi who said: "an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind."



Quote:


But yah, I disagree with you on manmade global warming and high taxes and the role of government as do the people I read and listen to. So yah, were actually the "evil" people.



no doubt you disagree, you drank their kool-aid for a decade - probably irreversable. Don't tell me...ummm...you listen to the likes of Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter and Limbaugh ? is that correct?
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 12:00 AM

Ed, your moral compass is so broken it probably cannot be repaired. The oil for food scandal happened after the first gulf war and the sex scandals at the U.N. are just two scandals involving the U.N. The bishops providing oversight to the priests committing crimes and looking the other way should be prosecuted and jailed. It would be nice if the evil doers wouldn't hide behind innocent civillians when we are trying to kill them but they hide behind civillians because they know people with broken moral compasses will join their cause and try to stop the good guys from killing the bad guys. Of course, the bad guys will then kill the innocent people who are still alive and continue being evil. Our American soldiers and our allies have taken extreme measures trying to spare innocent civillians lives while we kill evil doers. They take heavier casualties, they give up the opportunity to kill the evil doers, and suffer a lot more because we try to save the lives of innocent people. You should go to Michael Yons website and get some real information about the war. CNN and the BBC are biased against the war and the U.S. and their coverage reflects this. The people doing the most killing in Iraq and Afghanistan are the terrorists, the Iranians and various other bad guys trying to keep those people in the feudal age. The hundred thousand number comes from a discredited article from the Lancet journal. Their methods accounting for the casualties was shown to be wrong. If the Iranians and Syrians would stop sending soldiers, foreign fighters, supplies and improvised explosive devises into Iraq that country would a lot closer to peace and a lot more of our soldiers would be alive. This is another situation that the U.N. is completely useless in handling. Also, neither Iran nor Iraq during their war were goog guys. It would be the equivalent of the socialists in Nazi Germany and Japan during the 1930's fighting each other. So please, don't blame the U.S. for their killing each other. You obviously listen to the wrong sources for what is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan and have no real perspective on right and wrong in the world. Yes, I read and listen to Bill O'reilly, Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Dennis Miller, Mark Levine and I love everything that Ann Coulter writes. No kool-aid was necassary. When people are making sense it is hard for a logical person to disagree with it. For the other readers of this post, please see for yourselves what these people have to say. They like low taxes, do not believe in manmade global warming, know that the terrorists need to be fought, and they think government should be small and less intrusive. Does that make them bad people? You should decide for yourselves. They have all written books or have radio programs. Check them out.
Bill
(and before someone says "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" please think about what you are saying, If the U.S. can secure Iraq and Afghanistan the people will have democracy and better lives. If we are forced out by political correct silliness at home the terrorists will rape, torture, kill and enslave those innocent people. Freedom fighters and terrorists are determined by what they do when they win, not some silly quote stated in a thoughtless throw away line.)
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 01:48 AM

ah yes, the other Bush-regime war cry: "If your not with us, then you are against us."
heard it before. heard it enough.

time for a new era of reason, negotiation, and actually fighting only the real enemies instead of inventing new ones. The Bush admin didn't even pursue the real enemy, he turned around and attacked in the opposite direction. Talk about attention deficit disorder...he got over there and saw the oil opportunity, then suddenly Bin Laden went on the back-burner and he let the real enemies slip away in order to pursue the dollar signs in his and his cronies eyes. Idiotic.


Quote:

you wrote:
and I love everything that Ann Coulter writes




lol. 'nuff said.

most of the Bush admin will either be prosecuted or pardoned....and of course, the left will be blamed instead of the admin's illegal, unconstitutional and imoral acts.

I'm guessing at least Cheney and Rumsfeld will need to be pardoned on Bush's way out the door.


anyway, on-topic question for you: Do you deny smog exists?
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 11:10 AM

Yes, I believe smog exists as well as other types of pollution. These things need to be cleaned up so that people can lead safe, healthy, happy lives. If you go back to the first two or three posts I just warned about trusting the U.N. on man made global warming. That is when the holocaust denier, right wing wacko charges started flying. Other than that I think the posts went well.
Bill
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 12:10 PM

Bill -

Quote:

CNN and the BBC are biased against the war and the U.S.




CNN is biased against the US? This is exactly the kind of mindless, if-you're-not-with-us-you're-against-us, Bush-logic thing that Ed was referring to. Ridiculous.

You like Ann Coulter and you think CNN is biased?

*faints from cognitive dissonace*
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 01:15 PM

Its far from ridiculous. Research shows that the media in the U.S. has more people who are on the left than the right and internal research at the BBC found that there was a left wing bias in their reporting. Its not a matter of being against us, it is more a certain world view that permeates journalism as a whole. Bernie Schwartz has written extensively on the bias in main stream media here in the states. Check out his books and you could also look at Mark Steyn and his work. He was brought into Canadian courts because of his book America Alone. The media has been reluctant to report on Muslim terrorism and became even more hesitant after Daniel Pearl had his head cut off. Look at Vince Flynn, the author of the Mitch Rapp books. He is having a hard time getting a movie deal because the studios are afraid to make movies about muslim terrorists. As far as bias goes, look at the Jason Bourne movies. Vince Flynn pointed out that of the three Bourne novels only the first novel dealt with bourne being hunted by the C.I.A. because they thought he was a rogue. Apparently the next two novels dealt with bourne hunting Carlos the Jackal. The movies were completely different. An out of Control C.I.A. is trying to get bourne. Flynn Makes the point that this was a concious choice to take an anti-american view point. All throughout the media you find Anti-American attacks. Do you find it weird that when people on your side attack the war effort you are saying the exact same things as the terrorists do? Rush just played a clip of a liberal terrorist expert who was complaining that al-queda is a racist organization because it pays its black terrorists less than it pays its arab terrorists. That whole killing innocent people is just a minor problem that they have.
Bill
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 02:40 PM

Quote:

Yes, I believe smog exists as well as other types of pollution. These things need to be cleaned up so that people can lead safe, healthy, happy lives.



That's progress anyway. maybe it'll take another decade for the right wingers to listen to the rest of the world instead of denying and ignoring the issue of man-made climate change...by then they would have hopefully lost another election spewing the same'ol same'ol neo-con agenda like McCain and moose-hunting mom Palin.

you acknowledge smog and pollution exists, but you don't agree that sustained large amounts of it has no effect on the climate, patterns or temperature? whats your theory on that? it dissapates into space, so no need for stricter regulations?

Physics, logic, and ethics 101 quiz:
white reflects sunlight heat, darker absorbs sunlight heat.
True or False statement?

darker clouds would therefore:
A) reflect more heat from the sun.
B) reflect less heat from the sun.
C) cause people to allow the company owners to ignore air pollution's possible long-term effects due to it being too expensive to change their policy.

In the 70's we used to see pictures of an industrial city's smog-filled skyline and think: holy crap, we have to DO something about that - no one disagreed. Now in the 21st century, we see pictures of smog from SPACE, and it doesn't even phaze half the people....just shrug it off.


The main concern of the right, is that if the left keeps agressively demanding tighter and tighter regulation, then companies will be less competitive edge since they will have an unfair disadvantage when competeing against companies with governments that have no restrictions.

so does that mean in order to compete with industrial-age 2nd and 3rd world countries, we have to lower our standards to their level? no, it doesn't. What we do is use technology and government incentives to point companies in the right direction: up and forward. not down and backwards.

That means sufficiently funding research and technology (that always goes lacking in a republican government-since research implies long-term investment payoff as oppossed to the right view of short-term thinking and reactionary policies).

The problem with the neo-con philosophy and why it fails every time it is given an 8-year cycle is this:
They want to privatize the profits and socialize the losses.

The rich get richer and expect bailouts from the public when their profit-margin is threatened. Who is there to bail out the public? That's when a democrate is elected, to fix the imbalance.

same thing with environmental policy: the neo-cons let the industries write their own. of course they don't want to pay to run cleaner - it costs money with no short-term payback....let the tax money clean it up. Profiteering with no accountability. short-term and greed-centric thinking.

Here's what we should do: go back to the Kyoto meetings that we haven't been to in 8 years, and push for international environmental standards. If a country doesn't meet the standards, or are not moving toward them, then they cannot participate in the global economy in the same capacity as countries that do adhere to the standard. Simple as that. make everyone's playing field even by having the same evironmental standards for all. sortof a Geneva convention agreement or pact, except with oversight.

I think thats a more positive direction than whats been going on with the current administration's policy of: ignore the world and do what we want.

Posted by: Christy

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 04:53 PM

I didn't know there was a "2nd" world.

I always thought it was:

the old world -- Europe & the Middle East
the new world -- North & South America, Australia
the third world -- Africa & Asia
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 05:47 PM

1st second and 3rd world countries have nothing to do with location. It a reference to the level of development economically, social and government services, education and so on.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 05:56 PM

Ed -

Quote:

Here's what we should do: go back to the Kyoto meetings that we haven't been to in 8 years, and push for international environmental standards. If a country doesn't meet the standards, or are not moving toward them, then they cannot participate in the global economy in the same capacity as countries that do adhere to the standard. Simple as that. make everyone's playing field even by having the same evironmental standards for all. sortof a Geneva convention agreement or pact, except with oversight.




Exactly. Create progressive standards for all countries to meet. Give incentives to those that do. Create penalties for those that don't. This isn't that difficult.

Why on earth would anyone want to lower the standards? In the race to the bottom, everyone loses. People have got to stop thinking in short-term, me-only, right-now policies.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 06:20 PM

Quote:

I didn't know there was a "2nd" world.

I always thought it was:

the old world -- Europe & the Middle East
the new world -- North & South America, Australia
the third world -- Africa & Asia




here you go, "rocket scientist" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World
Posted by: Christy

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 06:43 PM

So I stand corrected.

"rocket scientist" ?

Huh, did you and MattJ get laughed at in the shower after gym class or something?
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 09:44 PM

My response Ed is that you are not taking in enough information to answer that question. The planet is large and we are not generating enough man made pollution to effect the climate on a global scale. Look to the sun and the oceans to have more of an impact on any cooling or heating of the planet. You know there use to be glaciers all across the northern part of this planet and they melted long before man ever had a chance to effect the climate. That was massive climate change on a level we cannot even imagine. And yet, because of bad science we have to surrender freedom and prosperity to the belief that we are the cause of miniscule changes in temperature that do not even stay consistent year after year. Believe me, you do not want the people in congress regulating anything. They helped crash our economy with their anti-drilling policies, and then they forced private sector banks to give bad home loans to people they would never have given loans to in the first place and now we are in a real mess. As I have heard before from Ronald Reagan, government is the problem. Yeah, kyoto, we are doing better at meeting those standards than the countries pushing us to sign on. I heard that from my right wing sources. Oh, now that the Dems are in charge they are the ones going to bail out the greedy auto industry because one)they want to take it over and two) they want to bail out the auto workers unions. So which side is bailing out the rich fat cats now. let private industry fund their own research. I am tired of tax dollars being poured down rat holes. If the environmentalists are eager to change technology let them pay for it and then make the profit from it. Enlightened self interest will make the changes necassary for the future, not government incompetence. Everyone always complains how corrupt politicians are and yet they always want to give them more and more power over their lives and their freedom. I do not get it. Government only does one thing consistently well. They know how to use force. They don't really do that very well but of all the things they do that is what government does the best.
Bill
( Have a nice Thanksgiving, I am done posting till at least after the holidays. I need a break from you lefties.)
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 10:16 PM

yup, the war, the economy, education, mortgage and environment messes all happened as a result of the liberals while republicans were in power for 8 years.
Keep studying your neo-con handbook, memorizing their talking points and parroting their agenda. meanwhile, the 'evil' liberals will be trying to untangle the republican mess left behind.

Expect there will be alot of pardons of his administration on Bush's way out the door....not including the thanksgiving day pardon of just THAT turkey. Have a good one.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/22/08 11:42 PM

Quote:

Huh, did you and MattJ get laughed at in the shower after gym class or something?




This has got to be the most random insult(?) ever.

Bill -

Quote:

The planet is large and we are not generating enough man made pollution to effect the climate on a global scale.




The IPCC report says otherwise.

Quote:

Look to the sun and the oceans to have more of an impact on any cooling or heating of the planet.




The sun and ocean currents do have a significant impact on global warming - but we can't do anything about them. We CAN modify the man-made part. And to not do so is simply lazy and selfish.

Quote:

And yet, because of bad science we have to surrender freedom and prosperity to the belief that we are the cause of miniscule changes in temperature that do not even stay consistent year after year.




The guy that listens to Fred Seitz and co. is telling me about bad science. THIS IS A LEVEL 4 IRONY ALERT! EVACUATE THE THREAD IMMEDIATELY!

Quote:

Believe me, you do not want the people in congress regulating anything.




Ah....belief. I could believe that, or I could research and find out if that was actually true. Turns out that there have been quite a few good regulations that have come about over the years. Civil rights, child labor laws, freedom of information, etc........

Quote:

They helped crash our economy with their anti-drilling policies,




Bill......you do realize that the REPUBLICANS have been in charge lo these past 8 years, right? They? Who do you think you are talking about? And did Congress force GM to build gigantic stupid SUVS, and sell them to the public? And who wanted to deregulate everything?

Quote:

and then they forced private sector banks to give bad home loans to people they would never have given loans to in the first place and now we are in a real mess.




Again, "they". Republicans, you mean.

Quote:

Oh, now that the Dems are in charge they are the ones going to bail out the greedy auto industry because one)they want to take it over and two) they want to bail out the auto workers unions. So which side is bailing out the rich fat cats now.




They want to bail it out for the same reason that the Republicans wanted to bail out the Financial sector - because MILLIONS of jobs (direct and indirect) would be lost if the Big 3 fail. That said, I am against bailing them out, as I was against bailing out the banks. Build stupid cars or make stupid loans, and you deserve to go the way of the dodo.

Quote:

let private industry fund their own research. I am tired of tax dollars being poured down rat holes.




What is your definition of a rat-hole? Do you know how much valuable science has come about from tax-payer funded research? Your a$$ would be dying at 50 in a damp, dark cave without much of that research, junior. Grow up.

Quote:

If the environmentalists are eager to change technology let them pay for it and then make the profit from it. Enlightened self interest will make the changes necassary for the future, not government incompetence.




That you think environmentalists are doing it for profit shows how deeply your right-wing stripe goes. Maybe there is another reason they care............
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/23/08 12:56 AM

It is really amazing to me that after holding the congress for 12 years, and the Oval office for 8 and both for 6. The neo-con right still finds a way to convince themselves, it's the liberals fault for all out woes, even more they refuse to accept any blame at all.

The whole "the government is the problem" is such a crock. We need government, it's the relaxing of controls and deregulation that was at the bottom of the depression and is at the bottom of our issues today.

I am all for free markets, trade and business being free to operate as they need too. But nothing is absolute, you must have order, you must have rules. Business will always operate in it's own best interest, we as Americans cannot afford to allow business to operate against our interests.

That's why we have busniess law, that's why we have regulation. I am all for people getting rich, but history has shown if too much money winds up in the hands of two few people, the society collapes. If you love America, why would you want to see it collapse.

Global warming may be a theory, but the evidence pointing to it being correct is so overwhelming, that no person who is intellectually honest would chose to say it's false...besides isn't it a basic value to say leave the place better or at least no worse then you found it?

Neo cons are people who claim to Love America, but clearly hate Americans. I have respect for conservatives, and agree with many of the ideas on their platform. Neo Cons on the other hand think Barry Goldwater was a liberal, they operate contrary to their own rhetoric.

They are really good at coming up with one liners like "drill baby drill", but are devoid of really long term solutions to the issues we face.

It's time for serious people to drive the boat for awhile, it's time to be Americans, not red or blue, just Americans. The tactics of Rush, Hannity, Coulter, simply have no relevance to the population as a whole. They are not serious people, they are not thoughtful people.

They had their chance, and they blew it big time. Now we have to control the damage and get the country moving in the right direction again.
Posted by: bcihak

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/23/08 02:28 PM

Try Walter Williams at townhall.com for the answers to the economic crisis.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: UN warns of brown cloud threat - 11/23/08 07:34 PM

Quote:

Try Walter Williams at townhall.com




Maybe you should try Al Frankin, problem is he is not left enough to balance 8 Walter Williams.

Walter Williams argues on the side of Jefferson Davis in the Civil War (if you can call it that...his words not mine).

Bill you claim you want a civil conversation, but that is not possible when you site the people you chose to site.

Saying we are not civil, has no bearing on the quality of your arguments or beliefs. The people you chose to believe deny math, they deny science. Not because they have evidence but because they have an emotional reaction to anything that does not fit their concept of the world.

The world is round, but I can drop a marble on the ground and it will not roll...that is not proof the word is flat, no matter how much you want it to be.
Posted by: BrianS

Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/24/08 03:16 AM

Clearly and sadly this is a liberal,bias, and leftist leaning group.

This thread is a good indicator of why political discussions are against forum policy.

Yet, the admin and mods allow it no matter how many times I push the buttons,lol.

Yep, I'm the Gun-toting, God fearing Christian all your hippy friends warned you about!!
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/24/08 09:19 AM

Brian -

With all due respect, please note *who* made this thread political. It wasn't the "liberal leftists".
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/24/08 09:45 AM

Quote:

Yep, I'm the Gun-toting, God fearing Christian all your hippy friends warned you about!!




I don't have a problem with gun-toting Christians, some of my best friends are as confused by the origin of man, afterlife and hypocrisy as you are (that's a joke, just so we are clear).

What I have an issue with is people who are clearly biased, pawning themselves off as newsman and scientist, yet don't follow any of the guildelines that govern those fields, and then they want a seat at the table of political discourse.

I don't care if they are left or right, if you have a valid argument you can make it with honest information to back it up.

Personally I'd rather throw my lot in with the tree huggers then with the Bible thumpers, but that's just me.
Posted by: JasonM

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/24/08 10:35 AM

uh hum..don't say mods, there buddy.

I have no power over this forum...

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/25/08 03:02 AM

Quote:

Brian -

With all due respect, please note *who* made this thread political. It wasn't the "liberal leftists".




When my kids argue or fight, I discipline both of them.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/25/08 03:03 AM

Quote:

uh hum..don't say mods, there buddy.

I have no power over this forum...






So, you have brought it up in the admin forum?

It's just silly to let this political bickering continue on a forum where no political discussion is allowed.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/25/08 07:14 AM

Quote:

When my kids argue or fight, I discipline both of them.




Touche.
Posted by: JasonM

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/25/08 08:43 AM

Yeppers..
Posted by: Zombie Zero

Re: Political discussions are now allowed? - 11/25/08 02:27 PM

There are several sites on the internet that are geared toward political discourse.

This is not one of them.