Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pound?

Posted by: Neko456

Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pound? - 08/30/07 03:34 PM

Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pound, IYO?

Though the years of watching and doing alittle myself, I'd have to say out of all the guys I've seen it would have to be. Benny "The Jet" Urquidez 58-0-0 He was beating Thai & Japanese boxers at their own game when not many could beat them in gloves. Fighting anyway they wanted.
I know this goes back pretty far but even now not many fighters today have a working arsenal like the Jet.

The Jet threw everything at ya, but the kitchen sink he could and did KO with his powerful hands and legs. One of his most powerful kick was a jump spin back kick, to the head or torso.

Most of the fighters todays play it pretty safe mostly, push kick, crocodile kick, elbow, knees and hands. Rarely anything else thats been trained and scores.

Bill Wallace and Pete Cunningham may have been more popular but they were not the finisher nor the effective technicain Benny the Jet was.

Thats my 2 cent.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pound? - 08/31/07 03:07 AM

Kickboxing? Classical kickboxing, it would be Benny first, Wallace second.

Wallace was amazing in that he used 1 friggin' leg throughout his career.

Benny was beating people because he was one of the few back in those days that had quick instincts and knew the game so well beforehand. He was good at preparing before a match.

-Taison out
Posted by: Cord

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pound? - 08/31/07 04:38 AM

I have to say that one of the best currently has to be Buakaw Por Paramuk (sp?). He is a MT fighter who has switched and thrives in the K1 kickboxing environment. These are open weight class tournaments, and he is often giving away in excess of 40lbs and over a foot in height, yet he still manages to win or place in the top 4 everytime he competes. Always an exciting and aggressive fighter to watch.

I am not sure how to rate 'all time great' kickboxers. it is still such a young sport, and there are so many differences in the rules from federation to federation that comparison of performance and records is redundant.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 08/31/07 06:36 AM

When I think of kickboxing, I tend to think in terms of muay Thai or international rules. Guys like Ramon Dekker, Rob Kaman, and Petey Cunningham come more immediately to mind for me.



-John
Posted by: Taison

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 08/31/07 08:24 PM

Well, if we're talking about classical kickboxing, my previous post still holds true.

But if we're talking about MT style kickboxing, then Buakaw is ONE of the best, not the best.

Ramon Dekker is kind of cool, but I've never been a fan of his style per say.

Peter Aerth is nice to watch, so was CroCop before he left for the MMA scene.

-Taison out
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 08/31/07 10:53 PM

And Crocop was knocked into OBLIVION by Gonzaga! Imagine how good Gonzaga must be. He's a freakin' monster for sure though, I'll say that much.

(and Couture owned him)


-John
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/01/07 08:55 AM

Agreed with Taison. Benny FTW, as far as classical kickboxing.
Posted by: Supremor

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/01/07 06:17 PM

I like Benny Urquidez as well. He has a phenomenol record, he has strong hands and feet, and his spinning back kick is sublime. I also managed to dig up this video from Youtube, look at the sick throw at the end, it was illegal, but hey, it was good!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsTPvsqpIgc
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/01/07 07:02 PM

Wow! Great find, Freddie. Bennie's timing and distancing are exceptional. Man, I felt that spinning back kick!

And that was a nice throw at the end - not sure why he did it, but he did it well.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/02/07 04:19 PM

Quote:

But if we're talking about MT style kickboxing, then Buakaw is ONE of the best, not the best.



The reason I mentioned him, is not as the best MT fighter (thats got to be Sagat), but rather, he has adapted to, and excelled in K1 rules kickboxing. Being able to be a top level MT guy, and then still excelling when not allowed to use clinch, sweep or his elbows I think marks his adaptability and 'pure' striking ability above many who have made the transition with less success.
Posted by: Kid_Killerbee

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/08/07 06:48 PM

Quote:

He was beating Thai & Japanese boxers at their own game when not many could beat them in gloves. Fighting anyway they wanted.



Maybe you need to check this out:

Quote:

Urquidez fought in three bouts which were eventually ruled no-contest (NC). The first, in Los Angeles in March 1977, was a nine-round NC (WKA) against Thai boxer Narongnoi Kiatbandit. The second and most controversial fight was against another Thai fighter, Prayuth (sometimes spelled Prayoud) Sittiboonlert in August 1978 in Tokyo, Japan. Japanese and Thai officials state this was a bout and a loss for Urquidez, who had difficulty with the Thai's aggressive knee and clinch strategy. Urquidez and the WKA state it was a no-contest, that there was no weigh-in, and that larger-than-usual gloves were used. Officially, the fight was ruled a six-round NC (KATOGI). Finally, Urquidez fought to a seven-round NC (WKA) against Billy Jackson in Palm Beach, Florida. The no-contest status of these fights has been corroborated in print by Paul Maslak (Chief Administrator of the Star System) [1]. However, recent research has come up with new data which casts a shadow on Urquidez's "undefeated" record. In the November 1984 issue of Official Karate Magazine, on page 45, Paul Maslak in his Star System Ratings (for March 1984) lists Urquidez as the Star System World Super-Lightweight Champion with a record of 56 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw, with 47 wins by knockout, and 14 wins by kick-knockout. Almost a year later in the September 1985 issue of Official Karate (page 44), Urquidez's record is still listed as 56-1-1.



"The Jet" was very good at American style kickboxing, no knees and no kicks below the belt, but he never beat Thai boxers at there own game. What makes it worse, is that after getting beaten by thai fighters in mixed rules matches, he had the matches declared No Contest to protect his pristine records and made [censored] excuses for it. I believe there's one quote by him where he said that Thais don't admit they lost. I give the dude props for dominating a burgeoning, young sport, but he still seem like he was full of BS.

If you want to see why American Kickboxers had problems fighting thai boxers, here's a good video:

rick roufus vs. kitsongrit

and here's another one:
dieselnoi
Posted by: Kid_Killerbee

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/09/07 01:37 AM

here's Benny's fight with Sittiboonlert:
benny "the jet" vs. sittiboonlert
Posted by: Meliam

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/10/07 12:01 PM

Wow Benny got some crappy low kicks.

My favorite Kickboxer is Andy Hug.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/10/07 01:08 PM

On youtude did you see the fight against Chigor <=spl if those weren't knees I don't know what are. Not to mentioned the guy he was fighting was kick during the break and the referee didn't try to stop him. Also the knees that were not knees dropped Benny to the Mat.

But you know what that still didn't stop his opponent from getting Knocked the F%$&^ Out, three times in that same fight it should have been stopped but national pride forced the opponent to take that abuse.

Benny fought in their home town most times, thats asking for a a$$ whipping or to be cheated. But not if you KTFO! Excuse my french.

The Dutch fighter Andy Hug was a verygood fighter a big guy with great flexibility, but not the versility in technique that the Jet had, imho.
Posted by: Meliam

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/11/07 12:38 PM

Andy was from Switzerland.
I just don't see the American Kickboxing fighters from back then being able to fight MT fighters or K1 fighters.

Benny and Superfooot fought a style of fights that resemble Chuck Norris' new fighting league. They dont elbow, lowkick or knee.

Its hard to say if they would do good today or not.

Its like saying could Bruce lee beat Cro Cop.
Different styles different times.

Meliam
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/11/07 01:10 PM

Could Bruce Lee beat Cro Cop? Maybe everybody else is doing it, looking at his last two fights.

Seriously thats absurb Bruce was a actor & gung-fu instructor he wasn't a prizefighter though he was an innovantive (fighter/thinker/trainners) he was also 158lbs soaking wet, Cro cop is a 200+ lb fighter.

Your point being Old vs. New, my point is that Benny was so ahead of his times, at his peak he could compete even now and win. Comparing Benny with Wallace is like comparing a Jet to a Car with a flat.

Bill Wallace was a limited fighter that had a good left hook and left leg, he was not in the same category as the Jet in versitility and effective hand & legs combinations.

Granted that Benny beat most Japanese Muay Thai fighters but there were a couple Thai fighters that he dropped. Most of his matched as I mentioned were not base on USA PKA rules as was Wallaces PKA MW crown. Benny fought in their home town by their rules with bias referees. And still gathered a 57-3-0 (counting his draws or NC) record.
Where did you get that they didn't allow knees and low line kicks look at the fight on Youtube knees and low kicks and they still got KTFO!

Theres several modern or recently retired Kickboxers that would tell you the same. Benny could kick their butt, today.
This is just MO as you have expressed yours, but no low kicks and no knees where did you get that from.
Posted by: Meliam

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/11/07 09:48 PM

I Have only seen Benny fight American Kickboxing rules.
And they have no low kicks.

And the Bruce lee Cro Cop example was just to pick a martial artist from the past and one from the present.

And Bruce was a martial artist that turned into acting, not an actor that learned Kung Fu. I agree he was not a tournament fighter and he was a light weight. I was just saying that the comparison between martial artist from the past and now is hard.

Meliam
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/12/07 11:29 AM

Quote:

I Have only seen Benny fight American Kickboxing rules. And they have no low kicks.

And the Bruce lee Cro Cop example was just to pick a martial artist from the past and one from the present.


And Bruce was a martial artist that turned into acting, not an actor that learned Kung Fu.





===========================================================
Then you have not really seen Benny fight most of his matches were in Asia. Thats why we differ, Youtube and see for yourself.

I understood that but I was making sure that you knew that was not a probably situation, not to mention that Sifu Lee is dead.

I stated actor & a Gung-fu Instructor, it had no reference to chornological order but for what he was most popular for, outside the realms of martial art.

You debate from limited data and mute issues, but your opinions are valid because they are yours.
Posted by: Kid_Killerbee

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 09/14/07 04:51 PM

Quote:

On youtude did you see the fight against Chigor <=spl if those weren't knees I don't know what are. Not to mentioned the guy he was fighting was kick during the break and the referee didn't try to stop him. Also the knees that were not knees dropped Benny to the Mat.

But you know what that still didn't stop his opponent from getting Knocked the F%$&^ Out, three times in that same fight it should have been stopped but national pride forced the opponent to take that abuse.

Benny fought in their home town most times, thats asking for a a$$ whipping or to be cheated. But not if you KTFO! Excuse my french.

The Dutch fighter Andy Hug was a verygood fighter a big guy with great flexibility, but not the versility in technique that the Jet had, imho.



First thing, i tried to search for this chigor fight on youtube and nothing turns up. You'll have to post it.

Secondly, you accuse the people officiating at these fights of cheating without any evidence. I know that cheating happens often, hometown advantage and all that, but it's not an assumption you can make. It has to be proven. Plus, Benny was beaten by Sittiboonlert in Japan in a match officiated at by Japanese judges. Why the hell would the Japanese judges give a Thai hometown advantage over an American fighter. The only other fight I know of with Benny vs. a thai boxer was also ruled a NC and it was held in Los Angeles.

Yeah, Benny beat plenty of Japanese fighters in Kickboxing(WKA) rules but I've never heard of him beating a thai in fully muay thai rules. The japanese weren't muay thai fighters but kickboxers, many with kyokushin karate backgrounds. The only muay thai match that he was in that i know of was against a Dutch fighter.

Benny was undeniably good at Kickboxing, but he cannot be considered the p4p greatest kickboxer. Even if he had a truly undefeated record, it doesn't make you the greatest p4p. Rocky Marciano is the only pro boxer with an undefeated record and he's not considered the p4p greatest boxer. Benny could beat the Japanese because he could get inside of their range and use his better boxing. But with the Thais, he just got sucked into the clinch and chewed up with powerful knees. It doesn't make him a bad fighter, it just meant he had weaknesses in his game.
Posted by: drgndrew

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 10/18/07 12:36 PM

G'day Guys

Sorry to resurrect a month+ old thread but I thought Stan "The Man" Longinidis deserved a mention on this thread.

Ok I'm a little bias as I'm an Aussie but 8 world titles speak for themselves (various rules).

KICK World Super Heavyweight Full Contact Champion 1990
WKA World Junior Heavyweight Champion 1991
WKA World Super Heavyweight Champion 1992
ISKA World Heavyweight Champion (Oriental Rules) 1992
ISKA World Heavyweight Champion (Freestyle Rules) 1993
WAKO World Super Heavyweight Champion 1994
WMTC World Heavyweight Champion 1996
WKBF World Heavyweight Champion 1998

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps5dPmOQegk

He had a huge impact on Australian Kickboxing


On another note, regardless of the controversy of Benny "The Jets" undefeated record he has to go down as one of the sports greatest.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Who was or is the best Kickboxer pound for pou - 10/18/07 01:05 PM

Stan was a bad boy and so was Andy Hug, two of my favorites but Benny is indeed the man. Longest reigning champion of any sport.

I had respect for Don "The Dragon" Wilson too. His conditioning was phenominal.