Old school boxing

because they were bareknuckled does not mean they hit weaker, just means they are more apt to throw less punches, and more punches to softer areas ie: the body

They were tough as hell that's all I know.

Ever read about how Sutton knocked James Figg clean off the platform they were fighting on. Now tell me that's not too hard compared to today's fighters. They were killers in those days. They also had to deal with more painful attacks because they were allowed, like throws slams, thumbs to the eyes, elbows, and things like that. Getting their hair pulled while being beaten senseless, like when Daniel Mendoza had his face beaten in while having his hair yanked. The were tough.

So did old time boxers just develope their skills and new techniques and tactics by just trial and error and experience and hten passon what they leanred to new fighters? It's much different from Karate and other MA of the orient which developed as highly complex, subtle and effective fighting systems with far more documentation.

well, ok, if they were tough, then what about 16th/17th century prize fighters? They would fight one round with bare knuckles, then the next with sabers! The aim was to maim and cause tendon damage. I would add that women would fight these rules as well. The 'corner men' would be on hand between rounds to stitch up their sword wounds right there in the ring, and to tie the hands into fists, or secure the weapon in the hand if the grip had failed but the fighter wanted to continue!
There were many deaths, and they were tough. if one of them had been born in modern day, they would have been a gritty boxer; and if ricky hatton had been born in the 17th century he would have been a tenacious prize fighter.

Tough people, with natural fighting spirit can only excell within the rules they are bound by in their sport and society. A modern soldier walking the streets of Iraq with a loaded rifle, is every bit as brave, and willing to get in the thick of things, as a Viking with an axe or a Roman centurion facing down a charge from Picts.

The tools change, the rules change, but the spirit of those involved remains uniform.

You will not change my mind on this, and I dont care if I dont change yours as I know I am right, and thats enough for me

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

http://www.geocities.com/cinaet/price20.html

Check htis old bareknucle boxing instructional article and the sililarities to karate.

Yeah, very close but who knows for sure. But look at the stance of the defender and and how he chambers his unused arm. Interesting I think. Also check this one:
http://www.geocities.com/cinaet/price8.html

Old boxing is with the straight back and with the vertical fists. The vertical fists twist into regular punches though as they are thrown. The biggest difference is that the arms are extended and are also lower so the head is more exposed.

The big change came about when Americans went to the Phillipines! Exposing your wrists in the boxing stance gives Kali artists an easy target to cut open with a knife. And sliced wrist = DANGEROUS! Since Kali back then was a very sweeping and dancing looking art, similar to capoeira, it was extremely easy to catch hold of and cut areas like the wrist, inside elbow, and neck. Also Filipinos kept their hands close to their body for protection in arts like Kali So the Americahns saw the need to change. Thus creating this more modern and harder-to-get-cut-and-die stance!

I heard that changes in hand position also came about with gloves.

As to the differences between fighters of now and then, I had an idea of this when I was doing Backhold wrestling. A Cumbrian wrestler said that the Glasgow wrestlers did weights and gym work, which the Cumbrian champion didn't. What he didn't mention was that the Cumbrian chap was a farm labourer and probably worked a 12 hour day lugging sheep, hay bales and sacks. Not something the Glaswegians had a chance to do too often.

IExcalibui2 -

I know that there was some back-and-forth between cultures when Americans were over in the Phillipines. But I had not heard of much influence from them on Western-style boxing.

I was also not aware that boxers were using the vertical fist that often. My understanding was that they still used the horizontal fist primarily. Do you have any links or sources you could share?

oh i meant vertical as in the palm would be facing up with the background facing the ground, just like the boston celtic's logo.

but i heard these things from a guy that I know that does modern arnis and also from dan inosanto the Guro himself! I'll go find the link somewhere in the JKD forum.

i suggest those that are interested in old school pugilism, invest a small amount of money in the current reprint of a book simply called 'Boxing' by A.J. Newton (Bloomsbury publishing ISBN 0 7475 7906 7 )

Mr Newton was lightweight amateur champion 1888-1890 and his book was first published in 1910 by which time he was an experienced coach and trainer.

It is essentialy a beginners guide to boxing as it was, including everything from technique to diet and training. It also has the records for the longest and shortest fights recorded, both gloved and un-gloved.

Below is the quite wonderful introduction Chapter of this essential book:

'A native of southern Europe in dispute flies to his knife or dagger. The wild Westerner grips his six shooter. but the Britisher is handy with his fists in an emergency. i shall endeavour to lay before the reader all the necessary strokes, lunges, parries, feints, attacks or retirements which are the necessary equipment of a first-rate boxer.'

Gloved matches were the very longest, and very shortest on record. Longest: Bowen vs Burke 7 hours 19 mins, 110 rounds. April 6th 1893.New Orleans.
Shortest: Hawkins vs Flaherty 4 seconds March 17th 1897 Carson City Nevada.

Buy this book, it simply does not get any more 'old school' than this

Where can a person get a hold of that book?

amazon stock it, but I picked my copy up at my local bookstore Borders (I dont know if you have them in the US?)

search on line by Author/ISBN number and you will find it I am sure- its in print and very cheap. it will open your eyes to the realities of what these guys were capable of stormdragon

Thanks cord I'll be sure to check up on that.