Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA

Interesting to note that more fighters are coming into the karate fold. From this link here:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/belforts-secret-skill-karate-19632

"Wide stance. A different scream before each attack. The Vitor Belfort I saw at Xtreme Couture Mixed Martial Arts was different from the one I’ve followed since he was 15 years old.

After the training session, I met with one of his sparring partners, Jayme Sandall -- considered one of the best Shotokan Karate artists in Brazil, along with the Chinzo and Lyoto Machida. While Belfort showered, Sandall revealed that Yoshizo Machida was one of the former UFC light heavyweight champion’s trainers with the Brazilian national team and that he had become close friends with both the Machida brothers.

“Actually, Vitor has trained karate for a long time with Vinicius Antony, but he couldn’t stay here for one month before the fight, so he asked me to come and help Belfort,” Sandall said. “I’m really impressed by the way he learns fast. I’m sure people will be able to recognize some differences in his next fight.”

Sandall lost to Lyoto Machida in the final of a Brazilian national karate championship and believes the reigning light heavyweight king has spread his art through his rise to stardom in MMA.

“Lyoto and his brother, Chinzo, are definitely the best Shotokan fighters we have in Brazil, and the karate community is very happy that they are showing the world how good Shotokan Karate technique is,” Sandall said.

After a tough sparring session with Sandall and Xtreme Couture stablemate Ray Sefo, Belfort outlined the benefits of Shotokan Karate.

Vitor Belfort“I trained karate in 2001 to fight Heath Herring,” said Belfort, who will face former middleweight champion Rich Franklin in the UFC 103 main event on Sept. 19 in Dallas. “People have a lot of respect for boxing and wrestling, but I’ve always had the vision of bringing things that are not being used in the sport, like I did with boxing. After that, I contacted Lyoto. We trained together a couple of times in Rio de Janeiro, and I felt his timing was from karate, so I started to get interested in karate again. Of course, I made some adaptations, as I combined karate with my boxing game. I’m adding a couple of nice things from Shotokan to my game.”

Though he maintains a residence in Brazil, Belfort bought a car and rented a house in Las Vegas, where he lives with Sandall.

“My idea is to have two bases,” Belfort said. “I keep my family in Rio, and when I have a fight scheduled, I will come to Vegas to train here at Xtreme Couture, which I consider the best place for a MMA fighter to be.”

Asked about what aspects of karate impressed him the most, Belfort gave no pause. “It keeps you relaxed all the time,” he said. “You never show what you are going to do; you always do what the opponent doesn’t expect. I should say that karate is the art of hit and not getting hit. What impressed me the most was the reaction time. Jayme is helping me a lot in our everyday training. That’s the interesting thing about MMA; you’re able to combine as many techniques as you can. There is no more of that representing only one art.”

Belfort maintains his edge in other aspects of MMA, too.

“Today, I’m pretty much focused on my karate training, but I’m also training my muay Thai and boxing with Shawn Tompkins, who is an amazing trainer,” he said. “Today, I should say that karate is the basis of my stand-up fighting, together with boxing.”

The 32-year-old Belfort promised an intense encounter with Franklin. He will carry a four-fight winning streak into his first UFC appearance in almost five years.

“It’s going to be a pretty much tactical fight,” he said. “No one can make mistakes, and I’m training hard to apply my karate, my boxing and my jiu-jitsu. It’s just about letting the techniques flow and hoping that everything works fine. I already consider myself a winner when I overcome the everyday training, which is the worst part. Franklin is a great fighter, and I truly hope we can make a good show in my return to UFC.”

Should be a good fight. I like this aspect of traditional martial arts HOWEVER anybody who knows anything about a MMA Fighter, he is not doing patterns and crap, nope, he's cut out the nonsense and is applying the practical fightingness of the art.

Agreed, Dereck. Vitor made note of karate's evasion and timing, but not any of the other, more trad, aspects.

but Lyoto continues to practice the "nonsense and crap" on a regular basis...doesnt look like theres any drawbacks

Maybe not, but doesn't appear to have any definitive advantages, either. *shrug*

However, if the unstoppable light heavyweight champ is doing something no one else is doing...wait...no, your right, his traditional training doesn't give him an advantage.

Do you know that for sure? Perhaps in his down time to keep in touch with his roots but I could almost guarantee you when it comes to training for fighting that patterns and such are not done; no time as need to train.

Dereck, I agree with you completely. I've heard all he does now is train MMA.

Comments like this are a little silly. Does Anderson Silva only train MMA (and not muay thai) or does Couture train MMA (and doesn't train wrestling). I wonder what Machida would say about the matter.

Karate is his BASE for his MMA training/fighting. Just like wrestling is Couture's base. Its one thing to be careful to overstate the role of Machida's traditional training in his MMA success, but another to attempt to marginalize it in a way no other art which is utilized in MMA is. For EVERYONE who once believed that karate could not be utilized effectively as a base for MMA, get over it.

Pretty Sure Chuck already dealt with that misconception years ago. Wide powerful stance? Check. Idiosyncratic timing? Check Fast sharp counters off the backfoot? Check. Great big Kempo tattoo? Check.

I dont think anyone can be criticised for 'marginalising' a single art in MMA. By definition, the idea is to not emphasise any one style, or tactic, but be strong and versatile in any and all situations.

As it happens, Machida has had a lot of stand-up fights, so we all talk about the source of his striking skill.

If he had chosen, or been taken, to ground and tapped his last 4 oponents out, we would all be talking about how he was representing his countries version of JJ, and how he was heir apparent to the Gracie's.

Does his black belt skill in BJJ allow him the balance and fighting awareness to use his Krotty on his feet?
Does it keep him on his feet long enough to use his krotty?
Does his Krotty timing allow him openings to use his BJJ?
Does the traditional krotty training give him the core strength to pull off awesome submissions?

I dont know, and I dont care. All I know is that whatever Machida had chosen to train in, he would have excelled at, and used to his advantage. Some people are just born fighters, and born athletes.

Look at GSP vs Koscheck - the life long, decorated wrestler, being manhandled by the wrestling 'noob' who comes in wearing a Gi and does spinning back kicks that work!! No art can defeat natural talent.

Med, to be clear, I was only referring to kata practice. I agree that the karate-sparring differences do seem to have an impact on his wins in the octagon.

To me what it sounds like is Karate people need to get over their insecurity of their art. That Machida has a Karate background the Karate community is jumping all over this and taking a sigh of relief that all of their training was for not. "See, we told you that it wasn't crap"

Nobody is disputing that Machida has a Karate background. Nobody is disputing that Machida he has taken elements of that art and incorporates it into his fighting style. We are also not blind that Muay Thai, BJJ and other arts have only made him better as Karate alone is not enough and even Machida knows this.

Let's get some things straight. When Machida is preparing for a fight he is training all aspects that he needs. He is training his stand up, he is training his timing and distance and footwork, he is training his sprawl, he is training his take downs, he is training his clinch work, he is training his knees, he is training his ground work and he is training is submissions. Now one can say he is training Karate, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and so on however since he is training all of these aspect he is training MMA; making John's statement valid. That Machida's roots came from Karate and is his base doesn't matter, not more then it matters for other fighters like GSP who is a Karate guy or so many other fighters that came claim the same or claim it for other arts. When they all train and they fight they are doing MMA.

If Machida was only doing Karate and not the other stuff and he stepped into the MMA ring, we would never know who he is because he would have failed. But as Machida is a fighter first and foremost with a fighter mentality and trains as a fighter complete, he has made a name for himself. It wouldn't matter what art he did as it is Machida that is the base and the key factor in all of this.

Now don't take this the wrong way, Karate is a very valid art, any art is if taught correctly. But I like to look beyond that and not get trapped in a linear belief. If 10 people were trained the exact same skills as Machida by the same Instructors, each person would show different degrees of understanding and executable skills with Machida most likely standing out the most. It wasn't that the teachings were less it was because Machida was the key factor. This tells me it doesn't matter what art Machida took he would be where he is today.

Just explaining what I've heard. If it's silly to hear things...I guess I'm guilty as charged. Otherwise I cannot comment on his training because I've never seen him train.

HAVE YOU?!

I have seen what's on TV and the net of his training. Did you ask the guys that told YOU about his training if they have ever seen him train, or are you just taking it at face value because it falls into your current MMA belief system.

However, I wasn't referring to you hearing something as being silly, but I guess that's the only thing you could think of that I was referring to. What is silly is such a general statement, especially when MMA is not any specific style. Couture's MMA is quite different from Damien Maia's. If you mean he trains some sort of grappling and some sort of stand up, then you are right. But now that's about as general as you can get when referring to MMA. Anything can pretty much be used, if trained right.

Just remember, what you train and what you utilize are different things. I have seen videos of Couture train in kick boxing. However, he doesn't really use Muay Thai or kick boxing in the cage, now does he? If I wrote an article expounding Couture's wrestling base and how he utilizes it to be a successful MMA fighter, would you or JKogas tell me that "All he trains is MMA" and his base is largely irrelevant? Its not about insecurities about one's art, its about discussing karate's usage and then hearing this its not karate its just MMA stuff. But let me say that about wrestling, BJJ, or boxing...but I guess its that attitude and MMA training paradigm which is also contributing to Machida's success.

I'm not going to totally dismiss Machida's Shotokan. Obviously part of what he is as a fighter is a result of his karate training.

But it's important to note all the other non-karate training Machida has done in order to make himself functional in the ring. So yes, Shotokan is a part of what he does, and so is wrestling, and BJJ. It's similar to Karo Parisyan's Judo. Obviously that guy is a very high level judoka, and he is able to make some stuff work in the cage that most couldn't. But he is able to make it work because he trains a variety of non-judo things. Therefore, what he does is no longer judo. While we're on the subject, I would say the same thing for most BJJ and MT guys you see in MMA these days--none of them are doing 'BJJ' or 'MT' (although you can debate what BJJ is probably).



Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone say that it was 'just MMA stuff'. What I did read, and what I have read in the past, are folks stating the kata is an integral part of Machida's pre-fight training, and the idea that his kata work is as important as his 'mainstream' MMA training. I doubt this very much, and will until some evidence is shown (besides a video which simply shows him practicing kata). What seems to have informed Machida's expression far more than kata is (amazingly) the shotokan point fighting method.

What gets me is all the implied 'we told you mma guys that tma was valuable'. What is ironic about this is that Machida is good example of what John and Matt have been saying for awhile, that is, in order to functionalize your tma training you need to use the MMA methodology. In other words, you're not going to see MMA fighters use kata to functionalize their training anytime soon, and 99% of fighters are perfectly fine without it. Yet, Machida did need to use MMA to functionalize his karate.

--Chris

anyone know what exactly vitor is going over during his karate sessions? or if he is spending enough time at it to make the skills be usefull under presure?

i have to admit that a part of me is happy that some people are doing well with karate backgrounds in mma now, at least the drunks at the bar don't talk so much sh!t anymore, lol.

Quote by Ames -



Yup, exactly what I have tried to say. Any art can be used as a base in MMA, provided that it is trained full-range, and with resistance. I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

Agreed.

You may not have, but there are people here who have said in the past that karate is not an effective base for mma training and competition. In addition, it seems that if one trains karate along with other striking then their karate work is minimalized and their success is attributed more to the more standard MMA striking disciplines. Correct me if I am wrong, but if a Muay Thai fighter trains in karate is suddenly his effectiveness attributed to his karate? I have seen people argue that since an individual whose base art is karate has trained in other striking disciplines then it is the boxing, muay thai, etc. which can be attributed to his success. Am I wrong, is this no longer done? Or can we attribute Vitor's success more to his karate than his boxing since 2001?

If its all just MMA then why do we even continue to mention styles in regard to MMA? MMA includes everything that is useful, right? Because people are still adding to what the MMA training paradigm includes and one person's MMA training looks different from another's. There seem to be some core principles and everything else is simply what works for the individual.

"You may not have, but there are people here who have said in the past that karate is not an effective base for mma training and competition."

thoes people talk too much and don't train enough.

actually what i really meant when i replied is that some people might think kata and such are "crap" and dont really hold a purpose to someone's training. But for others, it does hold some sort of value and I used Lyoto Machida as an example. From what I read/saw, he trains the traditional stuff with the family a number of times a week in addition to his MMA work. You don't like kata then fine but dont go calling it crap.

I don't know where the idea comes from that a Shotokan karate guy should only be using Shotokan. I go to a very traditional shotokan dojo in Japan and pretty much everyone is doing more than one martial art. One guy is even doing Shotokan, Kyokushin and a grappling art (not sure which). I wish I had the time to do so! The idea of training a number of arts is nothing new. Mas Oyama the Kyokushin founder was also a very high level Judoka.

As for kata, it's a bit like marching for a soldier. Why do soldiers march? It seems a bit pointless, but yet they continue to do it. I believe the reason is that it helps with discipline, morla, comradship etc. As with kata, it might seem pointless but there are reasons we do them, and they are effective in building a mental and physical base that you can build on. Obviously if a soldier is about to go to Iraq he's not going to spend all his time practicing marching, but he may be doing a bit...as an MMA fighter would be foolish to base his training on kata to prepare for an upcoming fight...that's not to say he wouldn't do them at all though.

Do it with the family? They have a Karate base so why not do something with the family that they call can do because obviously they cannot train at his level nor do MMA with him. But not for once do I attribute that to his level of fighting or the training that goes into his fighting.

I stand by that katas/patterns/forms are taught in traditional systems but time is better spent as a fighter learning to fight. Got that much extra time on your hands then lift some weights, work more with resistance but do something more productive with that time.

Why are so many people grasping because of hearing that Machida does katas? One guy doing them and more with the family and it is jumped over like he just saved Karate. GSP has a Karate background but nobody is jumping up and down in his corner, why, because he doesn't do katas?

I don't care what your base it because I've seen successful fighters with all types of different bases; but to truly succeed as a high level fighter then katas is not a tool. If Machida wants to keep touch with his family and his traditional arts, fine, but not for once is the katas indicative to his success. You want to point to his success then you only need to look at the man because it wouldn't matter what art he did he would be a success.

Wow...you know more about Machida than he does himself! He says in interviews that kata training has helped him get where he is, but we'll just ignore that eh? The reason he does them with his family is because errrr...his trainer is his dad. The reason people are excited is because we've heard for so long that katas are useless, but here we have the light heavyweight champion of UFC saying they're not. Of course it's crazy to say that katas alone made him the fighter he is today, I don't think anyone is claiming that, but as he himslef says, they have been a beneficial part of his training.

Soldiers march as it is traditional, and indeed, when war was a matter of attrition, and weaponry was different, you would march into battle. The structure of the troop allowed for continuous firing and reloading in repeating wave.

Times move on, and whilst the tradition remains for ceremony and a grounding in the history, you will never see a modern soldier march in to a real battle. EVER.

Taking your own analogy into the cage, I would be interested in anyone with the knowledge of the Kata in Shotokan, being able to point out an encounter in which Machida has used the specific movement progressions inherent in his Kata.

All I see is a guy who fights with different timing and distinctive, agile footwork. Neither timing nor free roaming agility seem to be addressed by kata, and certainly werent discussed in the teaching of any kata I learned.

As someone else pointed out, his in/out movement and timing resemble, if anything, point sparring, and again, I have never seen any of the calm, composed bullet time kata principles used in that either.

Thats not a criticism, Machida is a great fighter, but he is relying on gross motor function in the heat of a fight, and interacting whith a real oponent, not an imaginary one.

Take karate out of the theoretical, and into real use, and it looks like fighting.
That is why, when so many arts are trained across the UFC, when the fighters step in the cage, what they do seems remarkably similar. All arts are different paths to the same destination, and fighting looks like fighting.

That is why John said 'he trains MMA', and I agree with him.

I also agree that Karate has a rep. for being a bit cr4p in the public consciousness (remember Ross in Friends, Dwight in The Office, the list goes on), but I dont think Machida will be able to reverse that, unless it inspires the majority of karate schools in the western world to stop talking about dangerous skills and start teaching them ie. take the karate out of the kata, and let students work on using it in a controlled live environment.
Kind of difficult to listen to someone prattle on about their fighting skill or warriors code, when the only black eye they ever got was by mistake in a Bo demo - and you know that there are lots of 'those guys' out there in the Karate community, and its no wonder they open the art up for ridicule.

Okay, so we can then agree that all anyone does in MMA is MMA. Its not about Randy Couture's wresting, Kongo's kickboxing, or Maia's BJJ and we shouldn't hear references to those things in the context of MMA from those in the know. Even though the REAL fighters still do address where their "MMA" skills come from we shouldn't, right. The problem with this statement is that the level of fighting in MMA is not at its peak yet and there are still skills, fighting principles, and techniques to be gleamed from other arts. As long as you only deal in "MMA" you will be limiting yourself. And MMA is supposed to be the opposite of that. How many MMA schools only train a little bit of wrestling, BJJ, and boxing/kickboxing and most of their students are [censored] poor at all three. Yet claim superiority over all other arts because of what Rampage does in the cage? If Page ever faces Machida, I bet he won't just go looking for an MMA guy, but a karate man who can give him a good look to get ready for Machida. Or he can make the mistake that all of Machida's other opponents have and thing, its all just MMA. As long as I train "alive" I'll be all right.

The point is though Cord that one of the first things a soldier learns is to march, and they spend a lot of time on it. As I said it isn't immediately apparent what the benefit of it is, but I am fairly certain that if it wasn't worthwhile then they wouldn't be doing it. So with kata...it isn't immediately apparent what the benefit is, and it is wrong to think that the set patterns should be applied in a real fight. Kata are practiced to drill footwork, timing, full body movement and mental focus. Application, at least initially, is secondary. Shotokan is kihon, kata and kumite.

Practice the stylised basic techniques in kihon and kata, and then apply them in controlled sparring, and then full contact sparring. I shouldn't really have to point out that a block or punch in free sparring doesn't look much like a block or punch in kumite...it's not supposed to! Obviously it's ludicrous to say that kata are useful without the sparring, and if that is what is being taught in western dojos then it would seem to me that they aren't teaching karate.

Regarding Machida, of course he's not training karate, he's traing to fight in an MMA ring. It is however undeniable that it is his Shotokan stand up that sets him appart. His footwork is Shotokan, his timing is Shotokan, his kicks are Shotokan and a lot of his takedowns are Shotokan. Of course he needs his BJJ skills to do well, and he is indeed very skilled in BJJ, but it's the same with GSP...it's his wrestling that is his stand out skill rather than his karate.

The point I am making is that Shotokan, and its training techniques, when applied properly, make for a very effective stand up technique, that like any system is incomplete. Without kata, it's not Shotokan, and without proper sparring it's not Shotokan either. Machida is proving this, and that's why proper Shotokan practioners are going...see, we told you it works!

hmm, maybe because his father is his sensei? and his brother is one of the best Shotokan karateka in Brazil? and because he was born and raised in Shotokan?

also his father and brother play a big part in his MMA training as well. They help with his striking technique and strategy. So...maybe its just me, but I think his Karate plays a big part in his training.


like I said, I don't have beef with people who don't like doing kata. You don't see the benefit and thats cool, but other people do like kata. You don't know what their take is on it and you will never know. But to each their own man.


maybe because everyone says you should toss kata out the window if you become a fighter. yet here's a guy that does practice kata and can successfully defend himself in an MMA match. He doesnt spend all his time training MMA and he's cool with that because he finds some kind of value in kata.


so why bash on kata? it doesnt matter if he practices it or not then because Machida, the man, is successful.

Just going back to the comparison between marching drills in the military and kata practice:

"Military Drill in the Army is formalized with utmost precision in the fearsomely bulky Drill Book. In the preamble to the Drill Book it is "confidently asserted that the foundation of discipline in battle is based on drill" and that this has been proven again and again. According to William Barlow, Robert Graves said there are "three types of troops: those with guts who could not drill; those good at drill but with no guts and those who had guts and could drill well. [...] These last fought best of all""

Taken from this article:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/military/drill.html

In no way would I say that kata practice is necessary, but to roundly dismiss the benefits it can bring if practiced properly is willfully ignorant.

and would you say that, by walking in to a karate school, at random, and taking their class, I would be likely, or unlikely, to be taught kata 'correctly', or would I be punching air with little discussion, or explanation as to what I am doing, other than I must do it well in order to pass my grading?
Would you say that bunkai, and/or taking the principles of the kata into live experimentation/application, was introduced from day 1 in most karate schools, or reserved for high ranks, meaning that the student doesnt immediately get a chance to understand and 'own' the art they are learning?

I am not bashing karate, I have trained in 2 styles, in different parts of Britain, and not found the training to have anything to do with the mechanics of being able to fight. That is not to say that what was taught did not have the potential to be used, just that getting the balance between theory and application wrong makes for a bad fighter. Thats the same on the other end of the spectrum - I would be as critical of a MMA gym that threw a new student in the cage for a beating from an experienced guy 'to toughen em up'. You need to learn skills and apply them. A lot of karate schools teach the skills, but not the application.

Read a book about aeronautics, jump in a plane, and you will crash. Just jump in a plane and hope for the best, you will crash.
Learn about flight dynamics, move on to a simulator, go up in a plane to be shown application and real control, be given a measured amount of supervised flight time, and you will not crash.

A lot of karate schools never let the students get away from the book.

If machida can change the way McDojo's and drill obsessed karate schools damage their own art, then great. If not, then a lot of people are going to continue thinking they are learning karate when, by machida's own standard, they are not.

i think we can say that this comment pertains to many schools out there, karate or not.

Well, if the discussion is between karate and MMA, the MMA schools do not typically have that problem, which I believe was what Cord was trying to point out.

Cord, although I'm from the UK (Glasgow) I've never done any martial arts there, so I can't comment on what karate schools are like there, but I can say that if you weren't learning how to fight, then you weren't doing shotokan, at least not properly. That's not been my experience at all, and I can say with confidence that I'm doing authentic shotokan.

Sparring ranges from controlled kihon style to full contact without padding or gloves. Full contact sparring comes in two types, first all techniques are allowed at full power, except punches to the face are expected to be controlled to avoid injury. The fight also stops when it reaches the ground. The second type of full contact sparring is specifically to train defending against full power face shots and is the only time we wear gloves. Point sparring is very uncommon and i've only seen it done once in the dojo before one guy was due to appear in a competition.

If you want to learn ground fighting then your expected to go to a judo or BJJ class. In my dojo most people are doing other arts, from boxing to BJJ to bo, and the sensei actively encourages this, and you can see some of the other styles come out in sparring, boxing being especially noticable. This has always been the case with martial arts in Japan and the idea of MMA being new thing is a bit of a myth. Most people are aware that no art is complete in itself.

I'm sorry to hear it sounds that karate teaching is a bit dodgy in the UK...I was thinking of moving back next year and hoping to find a decent karate school...anyway I can think of a few reasons why it may dodgy:

1: Money: I don't know if schools are run for profit in the UK, but my school here isn't, and of the 4 people who have joined this year, i'm the only one who has stayed the course. Obviously if a school is being run for profit this isn't good, so the training gets toned down dramatically. Having said that I'm sure there are some good profit run dojos and gyms out there, especially something like an MMA gym where potential customers will have a pretty good idea what they're getting in for.

2: Misunderstanding and overemphasis of Japanese culture: Japanophiles probably don't make for great karate teachers. Japanese people can't wait to drop all the formalities, and from what I've heard etiquite is stricter in western dojos than it is in Japanese dojos...one reason this might be is that full on Japanese etiquite only really kicks in when there's visitors...so if a western teacher is visiting he may pick up the wrong idea. Bowing is just a normal part of everyday life in Japan and I see no reason why it should be over emphasised in a different culture. It can only detract from training IMO.

3: Misunderstanding kata: The way kata are taught to us is that bunkai is secondary. Kata are for building muscle memory, training footwork, timing, balance, mental discipline etc. They are preparation for sparring. Kata are not fighting and the moves are not meant to be used in a real fight as they appear in the kata. Real fights are far too ugly for that. That is why I compared them to military drills before. For sure there are lots of techniques that can be taken from the kata bunkai, but that is not the focus.

Anyway...I'm no expert, I've only been doing Shotokan for 9 months, but I vastly prefer it to Shorinji Kempo which I did for a few years. It's definitely a step up in intensity, and no question I feel like I'm learning how to fight, and despite being a filthy hippy, I've actually come to enjoy fighting.

I guess my point is that proper Shotokan should be about learning how to fight effectively. If that is not achieved then it isn't authentic Shotokan....repeat 10 times...if it doesn't have proper sparring then it isn't authentic shotokan

.....and a bit more on topic....if Shotokan is trained properly and combined with other diciplines then it can give you a very effective and elusive stand up game in an MMA match...a la Machida...

Neither schools were shotokan, though, in general, Karate as an art, has a terrible reputation in the west in regards to producing fighters, as opposed to martial artists. It is that very fact that has made Machida such a big deal to the karate community.
I merely posit a theory that Machida, whilst maybe showing the possibilities in karate when trained properly, is also, equally, showing the deficiencies in a huge percentage of Karate as taught to the guy off the street in your average town.
If you look at the arts that have touched the public concious as being 'hard' or 'tough', you are looking at Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, BJJ, and in america where there is a school culture for it, wrestling. (in the UK, wrestling is either fat men in tights performing in Rochdale town hall, or ridiculous americans shouting and taking steroids).
The thing with those styles is that their is a more uniform training philosophy of application from an early stage. Boxing/MT have shadow boxing, BJJ/wrestling have grappling dummies, but these are not tools that are the benchmark of skill in those arts. You dont get a belt in boxing for being the best shadow boxer - you have to fight a real human being, and best them, but plenty of Karate gradings are decided on performance of Kata.
Look at the difference in perception from the 70's to now. Enter the Dragon: Karate = awesome. Chuck Norris(70'/80's) = Awesome. Karate Kid: Karate = awesome. Chuck (90's/00's): Karate = post ironic joke. Napoleon Dynamite: Karate = Joke. Ross in Friends: Karate = Joke. Dwight in the Office: Karate = Joke.

That change in perception would not have happened if every Karate school taught karate in the way that Machida has learned karate.

Even more troubling is, that the majority of humour at karate's expense, is actually quite well observed, and obviously has been inspired by people the writers have met who talk in terms of having a black belt in kara - te. Hell, we have had a few of 'em like that come through this site!, and the fact that experience of these types of karateka is universal enough to touch a chord in the wider public conscious, (oh man, he is just like *insert name* - remember him? always on about all that way of thr warrior sh1t. man he was funny), is an albatros hung around the neck of Karate by itself, the way it is widely trained, and, as a direct result, a particular character of person that gets attracted to it, and may not be the majority, but certainly spoils how the art is percieved.



But if you do not move or strike in sparring, as you do in kata, you are ingraining movements you dont use in application. Its like getting a pole vaulter to practice high-jump every day, and then expecting them to vault well in competition.



Again, never seen anyone move like in kata anywhere other than in kata. How can you train timing when you have no one to react with? Balance? Fair enough, mental discipline? it will not prepare you for thinking straight having been punched in the nose, only being punched in the nose regularly will do that.



So, by your own admission, you are wiring your muscle memory with things it will not use?



Hmm, so if an element of kata that could have fighting application is actively not emphasised, then it is entirely reasonable to see kata as being so far removed from fighting in action and philosophy, as to not be a fighting tool.



Then why de-prioritise the bunkai?



and Chuck, and St.Pierre, and Schiltz, and others. Like I said, it is the Karate comminities excitement about Machida that indicates the problems in mainstream karate training - after all, with Karate in all its forms being one of the most widely available MA's in the world, surely Machida should not be such a novelty?

Cord, its not the art but who is doing it. No one is saying karate is better than everything else, but it is not worse either. The reason that the perception of karate has changed is because the people who are practicing it have changed. The "athletes" who train MMA now are the same type who trained karate in the 60's through 80's. That is one of the main reasons you don't see karate guys in MMA. The type of person who would enter such contests don't train karate anymore. The formula is simple. Hold a new and unique competition unlike anything people have seen and the tough guys will come. That's what happened to karate with the karate tournaments in the US. That's what happened to MMA. And what is even more interesting is that once you see elite athletes like all pro football level guys entering the cage the make up of who is competing in the sport will change again. You can already see it happening with Brock Lesnar. He as elite NFL level athletic ability and is dominated an experienced heavyweight field with relatively little MMA experience. I think MMA guys are on an MMA is the ultimate art high, when it is the individual and not the art. Again, karate is not what karate once was because of who is training it and not what it is. The Mas Oyamas and Joe Lewises of the world are just not interested in karate these days because they are into the new Martial Arts fad.

But I would argue that if the nature of the classes, and the focus of the art as widely taught, has changed, and that is why it has lost its appeal to 'fighters'.
Its not like there was a mass exodus from karate schools to MMA in 1995 - MMA appealed to , and drew athletes from, boxing, muay thai, and BJJ more than karate, because the intensity and application of those arts had drawn fighters away from karate long before UFC 1, or Vale Tudo had been thought of as defined entities.

Remember, I am not saying karate is bad/useless or whatever - never have, and i dont train in 'MMA' either, but having trained in 2 different kinds of karate, at different times, in different places, and worked in healthclubs that hired their studios out for karate clubs amongst others, that the attitude, focus, and priority in karate in general, does not equate with the training and atmsophere that you find in a fighting gym, like a competetive MT or boxing club.

Karate has marketed itself on different values, and thats fine, but in so doing, has managed to attract a great many people with low self esteem, issues with conflict, the meek, the paranoid, and the overly earnest.
Those arent people wanting to learn to fight, they are looking for cheap therapy.
Obviously by nurturing that membership base, the arts rep. has suffered, but thats not other arts fault, all Karate had to do was stand strong and keep appealing to the same types as it did in the 60's - 80's , and it would have many more machida's and Urquidez's.

And i know there are plenty of 'real' karate schools out there, but if you're honest, you will acknowledge that they are in the monority given the bigger western picture.

Who knows, maybe Machida will inspire a new generation to look at karate again, but i think if that is the case, that it will more likely restore the spirit of karate, than re-invent mma.

Well, let's be fair - Brock Lesnar has significant experience in a very resistant style (wrestling), which is directly applicable in MMA. We both know that many (not all) karate schools teach things so far from actual application as to be nearly useless.



And some MMA guys may think that some karate guys are being pointlessly defensive about real shortcomings in a lot of schools.



I don't think that's quite accurate, either. Limitations of the art were put on display in the original UFC's, and it is only because of widespread cross-training that parity is being acheived now. I myself do not see that as a bad thing. Ultimately, it has increased the applicability of martial arts training for many different styles.

Now that's funny Matt. Mainly because of all the marketing BS involved with the original UFC. Let's see, what would happen if I hand pick karate guys with little to no grappling experience and put them in with our golden boy who has spend his life learning how to use his grappling art against strikers? ALL arts have limitations. Its just the UFC was originally a marketing tool to make the Gracies money, make BJJ out to be the ulitmate fighting art and "expose" the weakness of other arts while protecting the weakness of BJJ. It was this aim that hindered MMA early on and to this day. Arts like karate were not explored as applicable in that environment and the vast majority of those training in MMA did not explore these arts. Due to this MMA is VERY generic now and a few fighters are exploring different avenues to great success. Hitting the thai pads hard does not a fighter make. And hopefully more fighters will stop playing it safe and explore the useful fighting techniques and principles from more of the TMAs.

well I'd have to say that not all forms are just you punching the air. Many forms out there are used to develop certain strengths, at least in Southern Praying Mantis. Many of the forms in SPM can be comparable to the Sanchin kata in karate (because that form was influenced from southern CMA). So MY experience with doing forms are completely different. Lots of dynamic tension is in play, helping to strengthen our fingers or wrists, etc etc. Learning to control strength in a certain fashion or apply the strength a certain way when you punch, etc etc.

Are these, directly fighting techniques? no, but I'm exercising my body and the mechanics needed when I do perform the techniques in a more resisting manner. So to me, it does have a purpose in training.

This is why I don't like it when people simply write off kata/forms as being useless "dancing."

Medulanet, as you addressed my post, and I posted a reply to you, I would be interested in a response in kind to my comments



Please show me any pre-choreographed form/kata that is performed with strikes to a real person inherent in that performance.



So is weight training, but how many times to we here from TMAists that strength alone is not enough to make a good fighter?



No, you are still doing forms.



But without the limbs dealing with the impact of striking, you are not developing the wrists to cope at all - Its like dry firing a gun on the range to get used to the kickback.
Charles Atlas used to advocate dynamic tension, things have moved on a bit since then in strength conditioning.



Already established that the movements in kata are not how they are done in application. Driving a car doesnt mean you can ride a motorcycle.



Neither is chess, but it was developed to improve strategy in war. Does being good at chess make you a good fighter?



So, to you, Kata is a form of strength conditioning right? Fair enough, but there are better, less time consuming, more efficient ways of developing biomechanicaly functional strength, that would leave you more time and energy to practice your art in a realistic manner, which would in turn make you a better fighter.



Hey, if you enjoy it, its all good, but if you are doing it for an effect, as opposed to doing it for the satisfaction of being good at forms, I would suggest there are better methods available.

Med - several inaccuracies in that statement. The "handpicked" competitors were as good representatives of their respective as could be found at the time. The fact that many of them had no grappling experience was typical of karate training at the time. And Royce - as you know - was hardly the "golden boy" of the Gracie's - he was, at best, the 6th or 7th best fighter in that family. So, the 'handpicked' comment regarding the other fighters is disingenuous.



This is also inaccurate, as the rules of the UFC matches did not favor grappling at all - they merely allowed it, unlike the vast majority of karate competitions. So few other schools trained submission grappling, they were easily defeated by it. The 'weakness' of BJJ only really became exposed as more people trained in it, to learn how to defend it. Please don't re-write history.



See above.

Yes, Royce was "hand picked" to be a "golden boy." He was picked because of his size. To have a muscular Rickson gracie destroy people would not have had the impact of a skinny kid. They picked him because of their business plan to sell GJJ. And their knowledge of what a skilled GJJ practitioner could do to those who did not have a good knowledge of how to defend their submissions.



Not the rules of the game, but the players. No one is rewriting history, just stating the facts. There are countless of videos of Gracies fighting all manner of strikers. Did they get any strikers will credible ground skill? No. Did they get a GJJ guy to fight with no experience fighting strikers? No. Your statement is right. Strikers not trained in grappling are easily defeated by it in the cage. However, grapplers not trained to fight strikers are as well. And we all know now that the gracies had extensive training using their art against strikers.

The exit happened when the non fighters started coming to class. How would you like it if your muay thai turned to cardio kickboxing and the karate guys were the only ones fighting full contact?



What if the karate club was a kyokushin karate club which was training for international competition? Its hard to relate "recreational" martial artist to ones training for full contact competition. Again, its like saying kickboxing is no good because you have had a lot of experience with a cardio kickboxing class where they don't do any contact.



You are right. That may be why I only have one adult student.

[/quote]And i know there are plenty of 'real' karate schools out there, but if you're honest, you will acknowledge that they are in the monority given the bigger western picture.[/quote]

Definitely. However, it has been my experience that most things in mainstream western culture loose a lot of their value when they go "mainstream." Everything from hip hop to karate has done this so its no surprise.



No one is reinventing MMA. In fact, MMA didn't reinvent anything, just reintroduced. No matter what new, cool, groovy things we come up with it has already been done before. And maybe karate can restore even more of what has been lost.

But Royce was also picked specifically because he *wasn't* their best fighter, either. If he failed, then Ralph, Renzo or Rickson, etc, may have stepped in. So your claim of the other stylists not being great or the best holds little water in that sense. Neither was Royce.



Well, of course that was the point. But they didn't rig the matches for any particular favor for grappling, beyond allowing it, as I mentioned before.



That is correct, Med - but why is that? I'll tell you why. Because karate people of that era (me included) didn't think that grappling was necessary or useful. There weren't many karate guys that knew anything like what the Gracie's did, bro.

It wasn't a conspiracy. That was the prevailing attitude.



Yes, the Gracies had experience with strikers, but come on - Royce was a lousy striker, by any standards. My point is that karate folk of that era did not deign to train grappling because they didn't think it was necessary - they (we) were wrong.



Yes, because striking was the predominant form of karate - again, no conspiracy. And the Gracies proved that strikers with no knowledge of grappling (remember the era) were at a disadvantage compared to grapplers.

okay, lets be real here. If you lack strength (not just pushing power) it'll be hard for you to fight.

The chinese have a saying which lists the importance of characteristics needed in a fight.
1) guts - if you dont have the guts to fight, why fight?
2) strength - you have to have some kind of strength to win (big muscles, huge power, ferocity, striking power, grappling power, whatever)
3) kung fu (technique) - the last thing on your list should be how good your technique is. Because if all you have is technique, you're going to go down when you meet someone stronger than you.


if you want to say it in such a generic way, then yes i am doing forms. I don't do forms with the mind set that this is how its going to be in a fight, because theres 100x more variables when you enter one. I'm here to practice the different type of strengths needed in a technique, the body alignment and mechanics, etc.

imo, its more comparable to shadow boxing, just that its planned out already.


er..not entirely true, unless you have hardcore evidence to back this up. My wrists were fine before I started to cross train and hit pads and people. So when I went to college and engaged in more "modern" methods, I blended in just fine.

Theres always alternative methods to develop something. Just because a lot of people out there like to lift weights, doesnt mean its the law.


maybe for some people, but the way I've learned to punch in a form is pretty much the same I punch when I'm doing partnered drills.



yes, the main benefit I get from doing forms is the strength conditioning, practicing body alignment, and (you guys can laugh if you want, but its my belief) developing chi.

I'm not saying that forms/katas will make you almight and ultra strong, definitely not. Certain strengths are developed in forms, others in drills and resisting exercises, and others in things like weight training. I understand that and so I branch out my training a bit so that I can be strong overall.

and forms arent too time consuming at all. My sifu and mentor tells me to practice 1 form (something similar to Sanchin) once or twice a day. Which is something like a total of 10 minutes....come on, you don't have 10 minutes in your day?


better for you or for me? I've found my niche and understand very well at what forms do for me and don't do for me. I think forms are important, but they aren't everything. They are only 1 piece of puzzle. Some people focus on it way too much, and I think thats foolish because you won't ever be able to use what you know. Others skip over it thinking nothing of it, which I think its rather naive of them because they are missing out on some good stuff.

But why did non fighters start coming to class if the class itself hadnt changed to accomodate them?
Its not 'my' Muay Thai either btw, until my knee snapped I was a savateur, right now I am trying to work out what I can do in the future.
Its interesting that by reversing reality, you manage to equate kata with tae-bo though



Within driving distance, I have 2 MMA schools that enter full contact competition, I have one Savate club that has members of the GB squad, 2 Muay Thai clubs that put their fighters out on the circuit, 1 judo club involved in competition and several boxing clubs that are affiliated with the ABA. I have zero access to Kyokushin or Seido full contact karate.
All these clubs do well - there is a base of interest to sustain them, so why do all the local Karate clubs market, and appease the 'recreational' martial artist? Why has Karate gone from the Bob Wall's of the world, to the Ross from Friends image? The fault lies with the teaching of the art.
Why would karateka allow their art dwindle to a point where it needs machida to validate it?



Not sure you can draw that analogy. Rap is still rap, its mainstream status has come from its acceptance, and its lack of 'shock' or novelty value. It's attitudes towards it that have changed, not the music.
You acknowldege that the shift in style of teaching/marketing in karate was the catalyst for the change in its mainstream status, which is the opposite situation.




I never said MMA was new, but maybe Machida is restoring what has been lost from Karate with his MMA training, not using karate to restore anything to MMA?

I for one do not think that mainstream hip hop music of today is comparable in terms of quality compared to the late 80s and the 90s. I'm sorry, completely off topic but I'm a big fan of hip hop and I cry every night about how people listen to crap like Soulja Boy...

alright back to martial arts

when something hits mainstream, imo, the quality of the product/service declines for the most part. Hip Hop is an example, and I guess a result of the TKD and Karate explosion in the west has led to things like McDojos.

And now everyone talks about Muay Thai and BJJ. Well we have San Shou/San Da schools that say they teach Muay Thai now or skip out on the other half of the curriculum to just teach basic striking and grappling. Even MT camps in Thailand barely teach the more "advanced" techniques (whether its illegal or otherwise) because they're just focused just purely on fighting in the ring.

Not to say people can't become effective fighters but, you're missing out on so much of the art because the school is more focused on schedule matches than passing on their knowledge.

But that's just it. The classes had changed, so the fighters left.



Not too sure what this means, but okay?



You said it all here. The fault lies with the art's teaching, but not the art itself. I am not defending karate instructors, but the art itself.



I'm not trying to get into an argument over Hip Hop, but have you been listening to it since the early 80's or did you hop on the bandwagon when it went pop? I would love to illustrate just how it has changed dramatically when it went pop, but here is not the time or the place.



Opposite of what, your losing me here.




No, Machida is not restoring karate, he's just undoing some of the damage that the performances of guys like Fred Ettish and the like did to it. The funny thing is that although some people have a negative/joke view of karate, as many times as I have told people that I practice karate, I'd never know it. So maybe the joke is not the art, but the jokes who practice it today.

With redirection like that, maybe you should switch to aikido

Look, we seem to be in agreement that fighters stopped investigating Karate, not because of MMA, but because the Karate classes widely available changed to no longer cater for those wanting to fight.

This means that of those who did take up, and stick with Karate, many were not using it, nore learning it to fight.

These people then reached a level high enough to teach and pass on their non combative take on karate, to others who also did not/do not want to use it as a fighting art.

At what point as this cycle evolves, does the art stop being martial?

If I cannot walk into a karate club, and be guaranteed to be learning skills and application in equal measure, then is it any wonder that those wanting to learn to fight, have looked to methods other than karate?

Dont be sore at MMAists for Karate bashing, be sore at your own community for giving them the ammo over the last 30 years.

As for hip-hop, the 1st no 1 rap record was by Blondie, and that pre-dated gangster rap, Public Enemy, LL, Run DMC,and either of the Ice's.

My point about Rap was that it didnt tone down to sell records, it's popularity stemmed from its notoriety. It was the new punk - the sound of rebellion,of political unrest, and its most hardcore artists were the Rap mainstream, and continue to be so. Thats why Eminem has lasted, and Tone Loc hasn't.

Karate needs to find its Public Enemy collection, and throw out the MC Hammer

Who's sore at MMA? I like MMA. I don't like some of the strategies used, but full contact fighting is my forte. I'm sore at those who disparage karate. Both karate and non karate practitioners alike.

As for hip hop, Blondie? Eminem? Hip Hop IS dead. Nas was right.

aww, come on, you are going to quote a late 90's bandwagon jumper , I was hoping for a little KRS-One

That's good, but "Why is That?" Its funny you'll reference KRS-One and say Blondie his hip hop and hip hop to day is the same as it was in the 80's and 90's. But you know "It takes a nation of millions to hold us people back." But I'm gonna be like KRS and, "Yo, correct the wrong, the information we get today is just wack, but ask yourself, why is that?" But I understand that, "Mental pictures, stereotypes and fake history reinforces mystery ,and when mystery is reinforced, that only means that knowledge has been lost." However, just as Ras Kass said, "That is the nature of the threat."

I'm sorry, that dizzle make any sizzle Mizzle

Sorry to hear that karate is looked down upon so much...I can only put that down to bad teaching in the west and a large amount of ignorance about martial arts and fighting amongst the general public. I'm sure you all know this, but karate guys do very well in K1, and indeed this would be the natural progression for a karate guy if he wanted to get into competitions, at least in Japan anyway. I know it's not UFC, which of course is the be all and end all of fighting, but none the less I would say it's a pretty good stand up fighting competition.

Regarding Machida...he himself says he does Shotokan, he himself says his stand up is Shotokan. This means he does kata...no kata, no Shotokan. For some reason people seem to have a hard time grasping this, none the less it's a fact, simple as. I don't see what the big deal is? Take a look at some of his training drills on youtube and you see the development from the stylised shotokan footwork to more natural footwork.

K1 is great, and it was developed as a progression from Kyokushin and Seido Karate to allow for head shots (hence the gloves), and whilst many of its stars come from Karate, it is also fair to say that a great many Muay Thai practitioners have excelled in the format as well. For every Schilts, there is a Por Paramuk or Bonjasky.

I think that speaks volumes for the lack of necessity in Kata, as those who do it, do not show any greater insight, or a higher level of performance, than those who do not train with kata, even in an environment designed primarily for karateka.

Here is the fight:

http://mmahits.com/fighters/rich-ace-franklin/ufc-103-rich-franklin-vs-vitor-belfort-fight-video/

Vitor thinks that the karate was the difference in the fight:

http://www.cagepotato.com/ufc-103-aftermath-bonuses-belforts-next-move-fate-cro-cop-more

"Belfort credited his win to a new focus on karate: "It's just something that I want to use right now. I was taking my time. I was feeling the fight. As soon as I see something, I make sure I have the zip code, the address and the social security number...Sometimes I take my time; sometimes I'm aggressive. But as soon as I start, I make sure I fight. That's what people want to see."

Although it was developed from karate it certainly isn't a karate competition...that's what's so good about it as well, there's people from all sorts of disciplines. As far as I know it's the biggest kickboxing promotion going, but I may well be wrong on that? I'm not saying that the karate guys are better than the Muay Tahi guys at all, for sure these guys do just as well as the karate guys. My point is, that if the training methods of karate, a part of which is kata, are so poor then why are they competing so well in K1?

Please don't get me wrong...I am absolutely not in any way saying that performing kata will increase your level of skill above that of a Muay Thai practicioner, or give you special ninja samurai skills. Muay Thai guys do their thing in training, karate guys do theirs...and both are succesful.

I agree completely, both arts have produced success in the K1 ring, but then, so has being a monster (Bob Sapp, Hong Man Choi), and being a boxer (Butterbean).

The point being that the 'fight' comes from the person, and they use what experience/tools they have at their disposal. If you see the non-kata competitors display equal skill, and have equal success as the Kata using competitors; and you acknowledge that the Kata training athletes also use resisting forms of training in their preparation, then it is fair to say that Kata does not make any noticeable difference to a fighters performance.
After all, with all else being equal, surely if it was useful, practitioners performance would show signs of an ingredient missing from that of other arts?
If the best you can say is 'well, kata doesnt harm their performance' then I would say that is damning with faint praise.

Cord, there are many things that some successful fighters do and others don't. Therefore, anything that is done by one and not by another can be cancelled out as a training method not vital or even contributing to their success. That would then leave us with only a few training methods which cannot be disposed of as a fighter. In fact, I would go on to say that there is only one training method that is vital to one's success. However, for me, that method is intrinsically tied to my kata training.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the role of katas in training then! To be fair, there's no question that katas are a very Japanese way of doing things that doesn't necessarily translate well to the western way of learning... they've got katas for everything...flower arranging, tea ceremony, caligraphy... there's probably even a kata for getting out of bed in the morning.

More on topic though, I think it's great that karate is making a bit of a comeback, not because karate is better, but because it's finding gaps in the generic Muay Thai, BJJ/wrestling game plan. That's the beauty of MMA, and what it should be about...lots of different styles on display. Hopefully it's a sign that things are getting shaken up a bit and people will start thinking outside the box again!

On a side note...Machida isn't my favourite fighter by a long shot yet...he's still got a lot to do...in order my favourites are....Sakuraba, Fedor, Wanderlei Silva and then maybe Machida... Sakuraba da main man and no ones's allowed to disagree!

You are entered for a fighting tournament. You have 6 weeks preparation time. You have to choose between your defined 'vital' training method and Kata. You cant have both. Which do you choose.?

I will throw a new can of worms into the conversation. Having watched the card, Tyson Griffin was using classic Savate angles, kicks and combinations in his KO victory.

Anderson has also been using savate kick and foot checking techniques in his recent fights pre. griffin.

Seeing as how we are looking for glory for our own arts in MMA at the moment

That isn't the issue for me ( not that I'm likely to be entering a fight competition some time soon!). Take Machida for example...he's been doing Shotokan since he was very young. He doesn't need to spend 2 hours a day practicing and learning kata, he knows the kata. For him, I imagine, he will spend 15 to 20 mins doing his favourite kata and then dive into his specific training for a UFC fight (bearing in mind of course that the training would differ between the various rules of the various MMA organisations). If he finds kata a good way to prepare his body and mind for that, then what is the problem? That's the way we do kata in our dojo...they are drilled... Heian Shodan...done in 1 minute...Heian Nidan done in 1 minute and so on. You do them, don't spend hours analysing and correcting them. That's why I say bunkai is not primary. You drill them and then get on with your kumite practice.

Sorry I don't know how to do multi quotes...hence the double post...I know nothing about Savate, it's a kick boxing style from France though I think? What's distinct about it compared to other kick boxing styles? That's what I'm talking about...that's what's so good about MMA, and also why I find K1 a bit dull...the shear range of techniques and styles that it's possible to bring to it. What's wrong with highlighting techniques from your own art?

Gibberer, the answer you ask for is in my post. What's unique about savate? it's very distinctive, namely because of its use of angles, body position in kicks, and it has a certain idiosyncracy to the development of combinations that comes from that. Griffin fought like a savateur on saturday night.

Well, that "vital" method is some method of sparring. That is the only thing that is common among all successful fighters. However, for me, my kata is vital to my sparring. I get my fighting strategies and techniques from kata. So for me to do what you ask would be like you simply fighting without using your fighting technqiues and principles from Savate.

Its funny, you make this statement as if just a karate guy saying Machida is using karate to great success is abnormal. We all KNOW that BJJ, wrestling, and boxing never sought to be identified as key arts to successful competition in the cage. And saying any other art can be used seems like blasphemy these days.

I was actually interested in what you would have to say about Savate. Appologies for engaging in discussion.

Jeez Gib, you asked a quastion and I answered it, as best I could, sorry if I came across wrong, it was not my intent.

I will try and do better this time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMJed79-WoM

Please notice right from word go in this clip, the front push kick to the kneecap that is a big 'go to' technique in Savate competition, and was experimented with by Silva in his fight with Leites in April. Not a common strike in any for of kickboxing other than Savate. Also in that fight, Silva 'checked' several of Leites kicks with his foot before they got going, whilst not on this video, this is again a classic savate tactic amongst the very competent.

From around 2 mins into the above clip, you will find low kicks that rely on stepping 'across' your oponent to add power and create angles, you will also notice that such kicks are used in lieu of a lead left, or jab, and get the savateur in range for a seamless switch to a right cross. The lateral movement in to an inside leg kick, followed quickly by a right cross, is bread and butter savate, and is also exactly what Tyson Griffin used to get his KO, actually sweeping the kick under the raised knee 'muay thai' kick check, that has become the standard defense in the octagon.

I have no evidence that Griffin trained in Savate, but the angles and answers that his trainer came up with for that fight are savate in all but name.

Question. Why is kata vital to your sparring? You say that you get your fighting techniques and stategies from your kata but cannot you admit that there are better methods to get this from? Better methods that would make your fighting techniques and strategies even better then they are now? That perhaps you may be stagnant in this area because you use kata?

I understand. You don't come from a fighting system and this is the way it has been explained to you and the way you have trained for years and years. You fall back on what has been inbred in you and what you know. This is the problem.

Fighting is not linear; katas are. Different people bring different challenges to the table. It is already hard enough to train for one person but just imagine how hard it is to train to fight different people all of the time as a career. This requires you to adapt how you train or even change up how you train to be able to compete and have a chance in winning. Something like that cannot translate into fighting imaginary opponents in a kata where nothing changes.

Those that don't adapt or change how they train tend to lose over and over until they are forgotten. Once great fighters and name brands are no longer around or have become stagnant because they couldn't change. That is similar to katas.

Just like these fighters within their own bubble may still stand out as high end fighters, so to must many that train katas for their techniques and strategies. But step outside those bubbles and those techniques and strategies may still work but in the long run you will find that they are dead ways of training and that there are better ways to do so.

But again, you are not a fighter so what you are doing works fine within your system. But I guarantee that if you did become a fighter you would scrap katas to training to fight with better methods. And if you held on to them it would be only because you have sentimental attachment or you have a hard time like many giving up old methods because "that is what we did back then"; you know, just like our Grandparents talk like.

LOL, Cord. Good point. Funny enough, RazorFoot and I have used that "savate" push kick to the kneecap many times in our sparring. Something that we identified as a distinctly "wing chun" technique (where we learned it from).

It is, many times, simply what you want to see.

Actually, kata is vital to my sparring because it is just the opposite of what you state. Kata is what allows me to be free. The techniques from kata allow one great flexibility in their combat/fighting. It allows one to adapt in just about any fighting environment. Defend, attack, defend and attack at the same time, strike with one hand, two, or two hands and one foot, elbows, knee strikes, forearm strikes, grappling, etc. And you are only limited by your own mind and limits. Better methods? Like what? Boxing? Now that's an art that doesn't stagnate, right? Adapt how you train? Does that mean scrap sparring for other methods? Proabably not. Fighting is simple, people try to make it complex. Kata is the same way.

Exactly, which is why I put a smiley after my comment about seeking art-specific recognition within MMA, because I truly believe that when John says 'he trains MMA', he is right, because every country and culture found the same answers for what works and what doesnt in physical fighting.

I was watching a programme about zulu fighting and their weapons, only to see them using a shillelagh!! (an Irish fighting club). Of course, they didnt call it that, but they used it just the same way, as there are only so many ways to approach smashing someones skull with a club!

I watched Mayweather beat Marquez at the weekend, and saw timimg and footwork many on here would attribute to karate.

I doubt Griffin has trained any more wing chun than he has savate, he just worked out what might work, tried it out in realistic training sessions, got good at it, and did it when it mattered.

How about like the methods fighters like Machida employ when they want to train to actually fight. Like MMA, for example (which is a method afterall).




Actually, the fact that boxing is trained by ALL MMA fighers (including Machida), seems to indicate that it's far less stagnate.

Also, it's fairly obvious when someone uses boxing in a fight. Whereas with kata there is this cloak of mystery regarding exactly what from the kata is being used in the fight.




I'm glad it works for you. But, frankly, I've heard the same thing said about yoga.

--Chris

No Ames, not boxing, people in MMA don't train in boxing, they train MMA. Remember?

I would just like to post a little linky linky to a Machida interview:

http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_250/294_lyoto-machida-am-fighter-interview.html

Two quotes in particular:

"My main focus is karate, which is my strength. I am also a jiujitsu black belt, and I train my ground skills regularly, and I spar to simulate a fight."

"In the mornings at around 5:30 a.m., I train karate with my family. In the afternoons I alter between training jiujitsu and sparring. After training I rest, then go on to strength and conditioning."

I wonder if Machida realises how embarrasing it is to be talking about karate like this. Perhaps he's never seen Friends so doesn't realise what happened to Ross. Surely if he saw this episode of Friends he would stop training karate immediately?

Pretty sure he didnt just equate Kata with direct fight preparation.

Thats the joy of interperating someone's words, we can all seee what we want to see

he engages in activities that involve both alive and non-alive techniques, and has found success in that. Whats really to talk about? Its obvious that his karate training is important to him and he incorporates that into his regular fight training.

he didn't equate kata with sparring, no they are not the same
but he does both

Sorry to all the guys who are dissing kata and saying Machida doesn't do them....but....from the Machida-do training DVD:

" Katas: Machida performs four katas that are both strenuous workouts and include powerhouse strikes and blocks. The last two katas are more complex and are shown at both normal speed and in slow motion."

I have some delectable slices of pie of the humble variety which I freely offer to all for the eating of....

I never doubted for a second he did kata, I just dont think it makes a blind bit of difference to what he does in the octagon.

He does kata with his family, because thats what his family do. Same as there are millions of families out there who prey to their God(s) every day, yet still seem to have the same sh1tty luck as the heathens around them. Just because it makes you feel like its doing you good, doesnt mean their is evidence to back it up

Ha ha...lol, fair enough, I guess there isn't anyway to prove or disprove the usefulness of kata...I think it's safe to say though that Machida does think they are useful, as I think it's also safe to say that he doesn't spend hours each day doing them! What is pretty blatant though is that he doesn't just train modern MMA with modern methods and there is a more traditional approach to his training aswell. I'm sure it's not the most efficient way, but it seems to work for him.

I agree, nobody doubts that he does them but like Cord has pointed out it doesn't necessarily have any effect on his ring effectiveness. To me it is his ritual and perhaps makes him feel grounded. Many fighters have rituals in preparation for fighting; doesn't mean it equates to being a better fighter.

I think you have misunderstood. I have never doubted that Machida does kata. I just doubt what kata training has done to help his MMA.

Now, I am not sure who, but I do remember guys on FA.com stating that the proof that kata does not help one's fighting ability is that there are NO pro fighters who train kata. Now we learn that one of the best does. And he just happens to be the only elite level fighter I know of who currently uses karate as a base for his MMA training/fighting. Could it be that kata is central to HIS karate which he has proven effective in the cage? Do we really know more about the keys to Machida's success than he does?

Actually, I think what was said was that the vast majority of champs didn't train kata. I am still doubtful that kata helps Machida more than his BJJ, but who knows. In any case, the non-kata champs still vastly outnumber the kata champs. Maybe that will change in the future.

Now that would be absolutely ridiculous. I don't believe for one moment that his kata is "central" to his training and I highly doubt any person that understands fighting and martial arts as a whole thinks that either.

We all have no doubt he does it, the question has always been its effectiveness. If this was removed from his training the question would be, would he be as effective? The answer is YES, 100%. He is a fighter with skill and that he wants to take the time to hold true to his Karate roots does not impact how he trains to fight. Too many people are grasping on to the tiniest hopes that all of that kata training was for not and that it is effective for fighting and self defense.

1. Person "A" trains all of the elements of fighting and self defense with live training and resistance. He is put to the test over and over during sparring and fighting in the ring. He does no kata; never has.

2. Person "B" trains portions of the elements of fighting and self defense through kata only. Does not do any live training and has no resistance.

Who is going to be the more effective fighter? Who is going to be the more effective person to defend themselves? Obviously the only answer is Person "A".

Without kata you are still effective but with kata alone you are not. That one person decides to throw kata into their fight training does that make kata a key factor? Most certainly not, it is just something extra that can easily be replaced with more fight training. And please take into account that Machida is a gifted fighter that can afford to probably do less training then some but still be better then most.

What I personally think is that he probably trains harder then most to be a fighter and still can afford to do his kata which he probably does to keep ties to his roots and to share it with his family. But if one day he said he wasn't going to do kata anymore he would still be the same fighter he is now; not because of kata but because of himself.

I will always put my faith in the person and their natural talents and any live training with resistance.

Simple question... if Machida thinks kata are inneffective then why does he include them on his training video?

Also, comparing kata to BJJ doesn't work. One is a style and the other is a training method.

Finally, no one is suggesting doing kata alone. That isn't karate. Kata are a part of training karate. Hard sparring is also a part of (proper) karate, so your person A and Person B comparison is totally meaningless.

Possibly because they are a part of karate. That's his background. That doesn't mean he relies on kata NOW. But, by all means, practice kata. I hope everyone starts incorporating kata into their training in all honesty because I would want an advantage in dealing with them.





How many hours in a day do you have for training? Jesus, if you have endless time, then sure...work your kata in if that floats your boat. Otherwise if your time is precious...come on, there are far better things you could be doing, IMO.

One of the aims of kata is to train timing and footwork. Who has the best timing and footwork in UFC and who uses kata as a part of his training and probably did a lot more kata before he got into MMA?

Answers on a postcard please, and the winner gets a free guide to shotokan kata!

Edit: By the way the training video that includes the kata is geared towards Machida's MMA fighting and not aimed at a karate market. It includes 4 katas to practice. So I repeat, why does Machida think that kata are useful for MMA...is he wrong?

This is simply ridiculous logic. You are leaving out so many other facets of his training here that this equation can't stand up. Just because he trains kata, and that kata (apparently) his to "train timing and footwork", doesn't mean that kata is the main ingrediant to Machida's success!

But allow me to show you why it's likely that Machida's success owes less to his kata than to his other training:

Question: One of the main points of a heavy bag is to train better striking. Who strikes well in MMA and also just happens to train with a heavy bag?

Answer: Every MMA fighter(including Machida)

Question: One of the main points of training fully resistive grappling is so that one can be competent in this one time neglected range. And guess who it is who just happens to have trained grappling for several years before becoming UFC champ?

Answer: Every UFC champion in every weight catagory has always trained grappling and always will (including Machida).

Question: One of the main points of pummeling is train sensitivity in the clinch. And who just happens to train pummeling regularly?

Answer: every competent MMA fighter trains pummeling (including Machida)

Question: One of the main points of training with fully resistive limited rules (MMA style) sparring, is so one can be more comfortable and react better during a match. Who just happens to train this kind of sparring?

Answer: Every MMA fighter (including Machida).


Question: What art traditionally contains NONE OF THE ABOVE KEY facets of training that every fighter must train to be successful in an MMA environment?

Answer: Shotokan karate.

--Chris

I agree that every fighter needs grappling skills..at what point did I say otherwise, at what point did I say that using exclusively karate would work in an MMA match? All I am saying is that Shotokan can be used as an effective stand up art in MMA. That is all. I'm not claiming superiority in anything. Machida is the Light-Heavyweight champion, and if you read the interviews I linked to above he states quite clearly the karate is his primary fighting style, and that BJJ is his secondary. I'm not making this up you know.

Our dojo has a heavy bag and we train with full resistance. Sorry, but you're idea of what traditional shotokan is, is wrong.

Fact: Machida is the Light-Heavy weight champion of UFC and he uses Shotokan karate as his stand up style, in fact as he says himself, it is his focus. Look at the interview I linked to.

Fact: Machida does kata and thinks they are useful. He has included some in his MMA training video.

Does this mean that kata will turn you into an amazing fighter? No. Does this mean that Shotokan is better than other arts? No. It means that when combined with good grappling skills Shotokan can be used as an effective stand up style in MMA. I really don't understand what the problem with this statement is...

You won't be getting your free guide to Shotokan kata. I can feel your disappointment from here!

The problem with that logic is that even most kata practitioners have stated that kata practice is not anything like what they would actually do in a resistive situation. I would more likely believe that his footowork came from karate-type sparring, not from kata.

Kata's value is at the very bottom of the list, IMHO.

I think this is really as far as this discussion can go I suppose. Beyond agreeing that Machida does kata as a part of his training and that he himself sees a purpose in them, as I do, we can't say much else. Certainly saying everyone should do kata, or that everyone would find kata useful would be silly.

Getting away from the great kata debate here's a link to a video of some of his drills for footwork, quite interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-uw15ygdBU

As I said before, he isn't my favourite fighter (yet!) and he still has a bit to do to truly get to the top. I do like his tactical style, it's got brains behind it...and of course I do like him because he does shotokan!

HOLY COW. You are grasping and things are slipping away for you. I can train timing and footwork all I want with an imaginary opponent but something changes when you put a real person in front of you and that kata bull$hit goes out the window. You need a live and breathing opponent (many in fact with different fighting methods) in front of you who does move and does what you do not expect. Everything changes when that person is trying to hurt you; something a kata can't. You want to work on timing and footwork then stop doing kata and do more sparring.

Pretty sure Anderson Silva doesn't do Kata

Kata can not teach you timing. Timing is individual to your oponent, and who dictates the fight. A counter-fighter will have different timing to an aggressor, and your, and your oponents, choice of tactic will blend and your timing will come from how well you react and adapt to that individual situation.

That is why pro fighters like to get tapes of upcoming oponents, and try and get sparring partners who exhibit similar traits to them.

If it was '1 routine fits all' then sparring would be obsolete, as it is, Machida himself says he uses 'sparring to simulate a fight'.

Please note that he does not say the same about Kata.

Quite the contrary, the "A" and "B" scenario IS meaningful you just choose to not want to believe it.

Let's get one thing straight, Machida may have been raised on Karate; he may even practice Karate still as is apparent with his katas. BUT training Karate is NOT training as a fighter; two different things. People who train Karate are NOT fighters. Fighters training fighting and that is what Machida does. Again he may keep ties with Karate as that was where he started but don't even think for once that when Machida is training for fighting that he is still training Karate.

Look back at earlier UFC and other MMA events, many "Karate" people tried their hand and they got their a$$ handed to them. Pretty sure they were practicing kata; got them NO WHERE and no where fast. While the Gracies mopped up the floor even their way of fighting started to become obsolete as fighters started to train all aspects of the game. They started training like MMA fighters. That is what Machida is doing as well. Karate may be his base but he is still training MMA.

MMA is not one way, MMA is many ways. Many have foundations in other arts such as Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, TKD, Karate, etc. But then they mix and match to find a combination that works for them and train as a whole. Those that don't train as a whole don't last long and those that don't change or adapt eventually become obsolete and retire or fighting in smaller venues.

Machida is no different then my own Instructor was. He taught TKD and BJJ and he did patterns. But when he trained and fought MMA he trained as such. To say that his patterns were a core or instrumental in his success is absurd; just like it is with Machida.

Keep grasping.

i've been practicing shotokan for a few years now and i think i've herd prety much every argument for and against kata there is by now.

my 2 cents would be that kata is at best a jumping off point point for further development. people find all kinds of "applications" of kata and then they get stuck by talking about them and demonstrating them like noobs. at best i think learning a technique froma kata is like being told about it or maybe shown once how it works. and thats just not enough. so what i know 3 hips throws from one kata, you don't KNOW how to hip throw until you can toss someone who's trying to knock your block off. and you get that skill from sparring (big suprise).

saying that kata is your base for fighting knowledge is a huge stretch. i can see the merit in someone saying that they learn different techniques from a kata, but their so damn abstract that it dosen't really count. i have some instructunal dvds on gracie jiu jutsu, that ammounts to a hill of beans if i go fight in a BJJ tournament. i'd rank kata's revelance to fighting as a slightly smaller hill of beans than the dvd's.

anything else i think is just someone playing up their martial art. this from a guy with a shodan in shotokan, their going to burn me alive, lol.

Kata training is more than kata performance! You can't learn to box by shadow boxing alone, hitting the pads alone, etc. And you can't get good at fighting very fast by sparring without learning proper techniques, combos, fighting strategy, etc. For all of those who try to seperate simple kata performance from karate's other training methods, its no wonder you turned to MMA. That's kids class stuff.

It seems like many of you guys are saying that the more sparring one does the better fighter one will be. So then are you saying the one who spars the most will be the best fighter? If that is so, then why do pro fighters do A LOT more than just spar?

I'm going to go with Student more so

kata won't teach you timing because you need a partner for that

kata/forms serve as a basic instruction tool. This is how you move and pivot, this is how you block, this is how you punch, etc etc. You can practice basic and simple techniques together when you are by yourself. Simple body mechanics. again this is basic stuff so the resistance you experience will be at a lower level. Stuff like simple application drills.

As you advance in skill and in your training, then the resistance you encounter should also increase. More sparring and etc.

But you have to start somewhere, and thats what kata helps with. I think kata is a good learning tool, does it teach you everything? no. And eventually as you get better and better the effectiveness of kata on your skill starts to plateau because you already have down the body mechanics and the techniques for the most part. Unless the kata's you do start to change focus. For example, just hitting the air with punches and kicks vs something like San Chin which is more like strength development.

but like I said, at some point in your training the effect of forms will start to plateau, imo at least

I'm still waiting for an answer....why do you think that Machida includes 4 katas in his MMA training video?

I've always been under the impression the best way to learn something would be first to practice it without pressure, and then introduce the pressure. ie. basics to forms to sparring, which is the basis of shotokan. Does this approach seem wrong to you in anyway? Are you advocating that practice should only contain full resistance activities?

But I return to a previous discussion in this thread - in the bread and butter Karate classes, that you, or I, or the next budding UFC competitor can walk in to begin our karate training, how likely is it that Kata will be taken beyond 'simple kata performance'?

Gibberer has already said in his defence of kata, that his school downplay prctical kata applications(bunkai), for focus on kata in and of itself - "Kids class stuff"

Of course fighters do more than spar, they have to be physicaly fit and strong, as well as learning fight mechanics and technique.

Kata is not the best way of conditioning the human body. Even the Okinawans recognised this, as they used their own forms of resistance (fixed axle barbells, weighted pots). It may be a way of rudimentary exercise that requires no equipment, and can be done en masse by a group easily, but convenience is hardly the benchmark of efficacy.

If you are using it to learn technique, it must play a very '101' role in the that process, as any and all application of technique is reliant on the reaction and interaction with the reciever of that technique.

There is a story about an amazing fighter (cant remember his name), but he was asked what his training consisted of, he answered '100 submissions per session'.
The next day the fighter walked in to find the asker of the question applying chokes and bars to a dummy-bag in quick succession.
"What are you doing!?" he asked, perplexed. The guy replied "100 submissions, like you said!". The fighter replied "no, I roll until I get 100 submissions"


And in answer to the world of absolutes, if a guy who had done nothing but learn technique and applied it to nothing but kata, took the pepsi challenge with someone who had zero formal training, but had a history of being in violent situations, I would be betting on the latter.

med, i think the difference between what were saying is just semantics. for me the solo kata is the kata, and from there i work on kata based stuff, but i don't really call it kata after the solo preformance. thats like splitting hairs. but it is all related, kata kihon and kumite.

the kata based stuff includes application drills with varrying resistince, and even different kinds of sparring games that cover alot more than what the kata is limited to, variations outside whats represented in the kata. you can call that kata if you want, but if you call that kata you can call anything kata. what ever floats your boat.

the only thing i turned to mma for was to help open my eyes beyond what karate is limited too. and my karate helps open my eyes to what the mma is limited too. does that make sense? its all limiting crap in one way or another, but i use the right tool to help ME get better at something. i don't think that kids class stuff, i think thats the way it should be.

I'm not going to touch the full resistance thing, except to say that likely you're idea of full resistance and mine are very different.

I'm sure you guys have a heavy bag in your dojo. My point, however, (and I probably should have included shadow boxing to make this more obvious) is that mma fighters tend to use the heavy bag and shadow boxing for solo development of the attributes you say kata develops. Machida also uses these methods. So MY question would be, if kata does such a great job of teaching "timing and footwork" why does Machida ALSO need to train these other methods?

More to point, I also wonder why other great strikers who have a phenomenal sense of timing (think:Anderson Silva) don't bother with kata, yet arrive at high level abilities? In other words, if we look at all the current champions, what we will see is that they all (including Machida) use the bag and shadowboxing during solo practice to work timing and footwork. Only one does kata. So you're insinuation, and the constant question of

Is unanswerable by anyone other than him...but the fact remains, that only he trains kata, but needs to supplement it with other methods build the same attributes, whereas other high level fighters do not need to supplement their solo attribute training with kata.

The fact is, that for the majority of this thread hasn't really centered on tradional karate in its totality, but rather one part of it (one which was a relatively small part of it until recently, when those who taught didn't necessarily have actual fighting experiance): kata. As I've said before, if there is anything I would isolate in Machida's training that has heightened his countering skill, it would be the ippon kumite, NOT kata. Why? Because watching video of him doing ippon and mma, one (even one who, like myself, isn't an uber karate expert who knows the 'secrets of the kata') can readily see the crossover in attributes; whereas I can see little obvious crossover between kata and his mma.

Now you, or anyone else, can say "well you just don't know enough about the subtleties of kata to make an informed judgement.' Maybe. But then the kata bunnies (joking) will have to make an argument as to why kata forms a better method of solo drilling the attributes of footwork and timing than the more commonly used (including by Machida) methods of bag and shadowboxing, citing specifics, not generalities.

In other words, neither myself, or--likely--anyone else here, is going to attempt to clarify Machida's use of kata without him stating the direct benefits it has to his MMA training that no other drill does.

This isn't meant to be dismissive of his shotokan background, because obviously that has played a role in what he does. However that background is being conflated with 'kata' so that all of sudden shotokan = kata, when in fact there could be so many other factors within even his shotokan training (leaving out his other training) that have helped him along the way.

So what I'm disagreeing with here is the idea that kata is the primary (or even secondary) method that has allowed the counter ability of Machida to develop. Futher, I doubt that any system which priortized kata training would lead--even someone with the natural ability of Machida--to the fulfillment of his or her potential.

--Chris

Nicely written Chris.

Nicely put Ames

I would also add that many excellent athletes succeed despite their life and training choices.

Michael Phelps is a phenomenal swimmer, who eats a lot of junk food, smokes weed and chews tobacco.

Would all swimmers out there improve by eating an abundance of fried chicken, smoking a bowl every night and carrying a spitoon to training? No way.

Whilst I am not saying Kata is as potentialy harmful as these things, it illustrates a point that to the truly gifted, negative, or wasted efforts can make little impact on their potential or performance.

Wow...big tough man. As I said previously, most people in my dojo are training a few different arts including a 2 dan guy who does BJJ as well. He kept trying to take it to the ground 2 weeks ago which was fine, failed, got stamped on the head and knocked out. Ambulance was called and he got taken to hospital. Is that full-resistance enough for you? Does he get a special you're extra tough medal for well hard martial artists? Of course the head stamp wouldn't have been allowed in UFC...so maybe you're right...we do have different ideas of full-resistance.

I'm quite surprised at the lack of respect here. All I am saying is that Shotokan can be used as an effective stand up style in MMA, combined with other skills. Is that such a crazy thing to be saying? Really? Is it that controversial?

I have also said that I believe kata to be an effective tool in learning certain things,combined with the other methods of shotokan training, and I also assume Machida finds some benefit in them too, otherwise he wouldn't include them in his training video.

The response basically amounts to karate sucks, it's for kids and kata are stupid. I guess I'll just have to disagree with all these MMA tough guys and unarmed street combat masters (I'd love to know what unarmed street combat is by the way...if someone could explain?)

well Machida's form in the ippon kumite has to have come from somewhere. At some point in his training, prior to adding resistance, he had to do solo movements that involved him moving around by himself and hitting the air.

I mean here's a video up on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-uw15ygdBU
I'm sure some of this footwork has shown up in kata?

btw - how did you post up the youtube video?

Not at all. I like Karate.



No more, or less, than any other art. Nothing wrong with young uns training is there?



I would use the term unproven, or even obsolete, but never stupid - hard work and dedication is always to be respected.



How many times? I . am. not. a. 'MMAer' in the sense you use the term. I do look like one though



Explain!? You dont get drunken fights break out in your town at bar closing time? There is nobody in your town that has a bit of a 'rep' for being handy with his fists? Nice town, and very atypical.

The interesting thing to me is most MMA guys always want to discuss what pro fighters do, however, the number one prerequisite for being an elite pro mma fighter is athletic talent. All other things are secondary. Brock Lesnar put an emphatic exclamation point on this fact. The second part of fighting is timing. I don't care how much you spar, if you ain't got it then you will never succeed, that is, unless you have the athletic portion and a high pain tolerance. If more sparring was all there was to fighting then that's all the pro fighters would do, however, they do much, much more. You spar to get the timing and find a balance between how technique should be performed and how it will actually be applied. To spar just to spar is stupid training. Maybe that is the non pro fighter tough guy MMA mantra. However, kata trained properly teaches a lot about positions that one's body may find itself in during a fight. I can pick out stills from fights that look very much like kata. I have seen picture perfect strikes with chambers that come straight from kata from non karate guys in MMA. Why would non karate guys perform movements that are from kata without ever training it? Its because kata is not a karate thing, but a fighting thing. It was developed for real fighting by real fighters from experience in real fights. Get good at understanding its uses and where it fits in real fighting and you can get real good at just that. Think how good those fighters would be if they understood why their fighting drifted from their classic boxing techniques to "karate" style techniques in the heat of battle. Think how much better they could be if they trained to fight how they actually fought when they were tired, hyped off of the adrenaline, and in a "fight for their life."

This video looks no different then the what was trained in Taekwondo. AND I suspect is taught in many other martial arts; nothing really new here. Only difference is Machida is doing it.

Well, you are talking about heavyweight fighters, and I believe Gibberer had a good point in that there is an inverse relationship between size and skill needed. I don't see any old 155er walking in off the street and kicking BJ Penn's a$$, LOL.

Kimbo Slice also clearly needs more than just physical attributes.

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=422583#Post422583



But I think we can agree that sparring is BY FAR the quickest way to gain timing, barring odd cases.



Not at all. No one that I know spars to teeth-cracking extremes all the time. But even at low-intensity, the resistance helps you work timing, momentum and distancing in ways that nothing else will.



Whoops! Now it seems like you're trying to reverse-engineer kata into places it doesn't belong. The fact that you see these positions from people that *don't* do kata kind of undermines the argument to do it in the first place.

First and foremost, NOBODY is saying that Karate is a poor martial art or that Karate doesn't make a good base for MMA; never read or said that at all. What is being said is that when training to be a MMA fighter the philosophy and how one trains changes to allow the fighter to cover all aspects of the game. That kata is limiting where as fighting is free flowing; ever changing. And that kata training would be very low on the list and can be removed from ones training easily enough and replaced with better training methods.



Very well said Cord; couldn't agree more.



I don't agree with this. Katas are too linear and don't take into fact the different facets of the person in front of you that your are fighting. Katas are specific patterns with names that individuals can practice by themselves or in groups. This mean they look the same so you are not free moving or adapting to changes. And movements are specific and many times awkward not realistic at all.



What a revelation. I can take stills and see people standing just like I see them standing everyday. I can take stills of people in awkward stances or even what appears to be dance like moves. We all see what we want.

I don't know how to word what I want to relate here but basically people fought and trained to fight and bits and pieces were later taken and put into katas; so it is no doubt you can see this. So with the understand that the fighting is the main issue then it is easily to deduct that great fighting comes from training not from katas however katas would not be anything without the fighting. So why not focus on training to fight then putting efforts into katas.



Again wrong. Perfect strikes don't come from kata they come from training. Without the training then kata would not have been able to show this. It is only because of the hard training such as fighters do and have always done that katas were able to incorporate this. Which again leads back to better training methods to accomplish these tasks other then kata.



You just proved my point. They are not performing movements from kata, they are displaying movements from training and fighting. .



HUH? Without hard training and fighting there would be no kata. Without kata hard training and fighting would still exist. Stop putting the cart before the horse.



HOLY COW, what a load of crap. Again, keep grasping.

To tell you the truth, the lighter weight classes are great, but a 155 lb man is not the opponent I am personally training for. So yes, I am discussing the larger fighters. Mainly because adding weight classes is a way to equal the playing field. If MMA was open weight the sub 200 lbs. guys would be a thing of the past.



Uh, what "attributes" does Kimbo have. He has an imposing physique, but does that acutally translate into athletic skill? He weighed in for his TUF fight at 230, hardly an incredibly large man. He looks strong, but doesn't fight strong. He isn't exceptionally quick. So I'm a little confused by this comparison. What makes YOU believe Kimbo Slice has elite and/or superior athletic talent? Being somewhat big and black is not a qualifier no matter what popular culture may tell us.



I didn't argue that it wasn't. In fact, I stated that it is used for this. However, MMA types always say don't do kata, spar more. But is this really sound advise. Do we tell boxers to stop shadow boxing and spar more, or Lesnar to stop lifting weights and roll more (oh, wait, that's what Mir said and he got taken apart)?



See above.



Actually, the fact that they are fighting in a way dissimilar to how they train is the point. But I guess that is a good strategy for some.

So you have a different fight strategy and different techniques for every single different person you ever face? Interesting.



Because katas help us pick up where others left off rather than reinventing the wheel over, and over, and over again.



Is that why everyone who trains hard has such great technique? Perfect techniques begin with knowing how to do the technique correctly? Is that not how you train?



And think how good they would be if they actually understood how to utilize some of these movements properly.





That's funny, because forms of "kata" have existed for thousands of years, even back in the pankration days fighters had a form of kata. So maybe hard training and kata go hand in hand more than you think.



So anything that does not fall in your belief system is "grasping?"

Yes, we call it a "fight". I think you'd get laughed at if you called it unarmed street combat where I'm from. How about where you're from?

So people like karate? What's the problem with what I've been saying then? I've already agreed that kata are not for everyone, some people may find them strange, but that some people do find them useful. What is one way that boxers train for speed and timing with their hands? With a speed ball...and is that how they punch in a fight?

Do you think ist would be possible to be a bit more constructive and discuss some of the positive things that Shotokan and karate techniqu and training can bring to the MMA ring?

Well, OK, but you're cherry-picking your argument here. And I'm not even sure that all the -200lb guys would be gone. Anderson Silva? Dan Henderson? GSP?



I don't remember bringing up his blackness. But what makes me believe that Kimbo has some innate athletic ability? Gosh, I don't know. Maybe because both EliteXC and the UFC thought enough of him to sign him up? Did you see how he came within a hair of reversing Roy Nelson - a BJJ BLACK BELT who outweighs Kimbo by 35 pounds - in the first round? He seems athletically comparable to everyone else there, just lacking skill.



Meh. Personally, I do think that shadow-boxing is a waste of time, but that's just me. Lifting weights is a different category, IMHO.



??????????

Why do they need kata to do something they have already figured out how to do? It will get far sharper from sparring than it will from doing kata.

They would be around, but not under 200. They would all have to bulk up rather than cut. Size matters.



You didn't, I just did. It was part of Elite XC's/Kimbo's "Street Certified" marketing plan for Kimbo. And an almost reversal is very little in the grand scheme of things. Or maybe I don't hold a BJJ black belt in as high regard as you do in an MMA context (since its not really BJJ that matters and its all MMA). A hard bridge/bump is not a difficult thing to do. In fact, Kimbo had several chances to escape from Roy had he listened to his coaches, got an underhook and bridged/bumped. In fact, an escape from bottom is not the hardest thing to do. Roy isn't exactly a "terror" on top either. Did you see his devastating punches? Kimbo has enough altheticism to just get by, but not to dominate. Are you trying to compare him with Lesnar or even Rodgers? Maybe we have a different understanding of what elite athleticism is.



Definitely. MMA opened the eyes of many to the whole skill vs strength debate. But I've been lifting since I was a kid so I knew what many combat athletes (wrestling, football, etc) have known for a long time.



That's just it, it is an instinctual reaction which they don't develop into a trained response but just shoot from the hip. I already know how to run, but if I train to run the I will be better at it. In addition, I may train to run, but if I don't know how certain situations my naturally change my running technique, and I don't learn how to use this altered technique in a productive way, I may get by on my athletic skill alone, but I would be much better if I had training on how to utilized these alterations more effectively.

Would you train to run by lying on your back and waving your legs in the air?

Sure it does, but so does skill. I think between 230lb Nogueira and 185lb Silva, that Silva could take that. I would give 170lb GSP good odds against 240lb Frank Mir. Skill vs strength isn't a simple either/or thing.



Come on, bro. Now you're being ridiculous. No one can be effective in MMA without BJJ - no one. You can strike with boxing or Muay Thai or karate or sanshuo. You can wrestle or do sambo or judo or shoot-wrestling. But you can't do without BJJ. BJJ *is* the foundation of MMA, the common thread that all MMA fighters have. No one has been successful without it. BJJ is a separate case, and you know it.



See.......you're being dishonest here, too. Escaping from the bottom is exactly THE MOST DIFFICULT THING TO DO IN A FIGHT. Especially when the guy is bigger than you, and moreso when the guy is also more skilled than you. The fact that Kimbo, with comparitively little ground experience, was almost able to completely turn himself over against a 35lb heavier, much better groundfighter speaks volumes for his athletic ability.



I consider most pro-athletes to be elite. I am not sure who you are comparing them to. Roy was doing well against Andre Arlovski on the ground, and only a BS stand-up allowed Arlovski to win. Nelson isn't Lesnar.....but who is? And Rodgers? Yeah, I think Kimbo vs Rodgers is a valid comparison. Both are hard punchers with little training and no ground skill. I don't see where Rodgers could automatically kick Kimbo's a$$.

WHAT?

In an open class MMA contest, why would Silva cut to 185? He doesn't even do that to fight 205?



Just as JKogas, its all MMA. BJJ isn't the only art with submission defense. And to fight wrestling and that is the way to go on the ground for some. And apparently BJJ didn't help Maia much against Marquart. And Maia is one of the best BJJ guys to ever enter the cage. Why is it that its okay when Machida doesn't train karate, he trains MMA statement is made, however, a similar statement about BJJ is seen as "ridiculous."



No, maybe against an olympic or NCAA all american level wrestler. But against most guys it is not that hard, if you have wrestling experience. However, if you train to pull guard and fight from your back rather than skills that are IMO more useful in a fight then yes, it will be quite difficult.



Do you know how many "pro" fighters there are? The UFC is relatively young and most individuals with "elite" athletic talent go for the higher paying sports. There are some elite athletes in the UFC, but the NFL, NBA, and international soccer scene holds far more proportionally. As for Rodgers he moves extremely well for a big man who, like Lesnar, cuts close to 20 lbs to make 265. Rodgers is years ahead of Kimbo as far as MMA and fighting goes. What exactly have you seen from Kimbo, other than his physical appearance, say elite athlete. You should check out some NFL pro bowl level training videos on youtube or coverage of the NFL combine and look at the numbers and performances of some of the top picks. Adrian Wilson of the AZ Cardinals has some insane stuff on the net. That is "elite" athletic talent. And he is about the same size and build as kimbo, but athletically, him and Kimbo are not even on the same planet.

Maybe he wants to prove a point. How would I know? You're the one asking. I brought up examples of -200lb fighters that would probably do well against some non-cutting heavyweights. Please stop trying to shift your argument.



I bet you are going to feel really stupid when I remind you that Nate Marquardt is black belt in BJJ himself. So maybe BJJ did help in the ring, LOL. Your argument will make sense when you can find an elite MMA fighter that has *zero* BJJ training. I'll hold my breath while you search.



Because it *IS* ridiculous - see above.



I'm not denying that wrestling is a valuable skill. But your "wrestling experience" qualifier is as specious as me saying it's no problem for a BJJ guy, either. Kimbo clearly has little of either - my point in the first place. If he's not doing it with skill, it must be.......oh hell. I'll let you figure it out.



Not sure what your point is - are you saying that football and basketball guys can come into MMA and start kicking a$$? That is clearly not the case. Johnny Morton, anyone?



How many times do I have to answer this? Please read my previous answers. I agree that Rodgers has done well. I don't know that he is light-years ahead of Kimbo, though. I will concede, that by your definition, Kimbo is not "elite".



That's awesome. What does this have to do with fighting?

You used running training in analogy to MA training. Taking that point, I merely carried it on by equating kata to moving your legs about in the air - after all, that would be the equivalent.

Interestingly enough, it has been found that running on a treadmill does not help in preparation for any road running activity, outside of the cardiovascular aspects. Its down to the biomechanics being different, even though to the eye, in both practices you are 'running'.

Perfect a side kick in kata, and there is no way of knowing if :
a) you will be able to time it to land against a real person
b) If it lands, how your own body will respond to meeting the force of the struck person
C) what reaction your kick will achieve, and from there what follow up measures to take
d)what to do if your kick misses.
e) how to recieve and deal with counters to you side kick

I know that you are going to say 'yes, but that is where all the other training comes in'

To which I would simply ask, if points a) to e) are learned elsewhere, then you cannot say that Kata is at the heart of fighting.

If you want to see it as a way of transmitting technique, fair enough, but why make such a big deal of it in gradings? Thats sort of like denying Tiger woods a masters jacket because he didnt look good on the warm up driving range ;-)

Who's shifting the arguement? You attempted to claim that Silva would fight a heavy weight at 185.



What do you consider BJJ training? A fighter must train against BJJ and learn to defeat it. Couture does this, but applies his wrestling to MMA and no more trains BJJ than someone who trains against a karate man to beat Machida trains in karate.

And I guess that over hand Marquart used to knock Maia out with in 30 seconds is a BJJ technique.



So its ridiculous to say that a person is not training BJJ, he's training MMA. Right? I'll remember that whenever someone tells me that Machida does not train karate to fight, he trains MMA.



And what strength did Kimbo show? Almost bridging out using his feel to walk up the cage. Kimbo is no weakling. However, we were discussing elite athletes. Of which, Kimbo is not.



Wow, an over the hill wide reciever. I don't think Morton would be in that class either. If he had still been an elite athlete then he would still be in the...I don't know...why don't YOU figure it out.



Wait, weren't we talking about elite athleticism? That's and example. I wish I had more examples in MMA, but there are many who are on that level.

No, its not.




That's just it. For you one technique seems to be one technique. That's why you mainly have a certain "type" of person who trains and competes in MMA. However, in kata one technique can be many different things. Therefore it is more "free" that your MMA. What's a perfect jab? Does that mean one should not learn to throw a jab?



Not really. Who is talking about aesthetics? Is that the type of karate that you studied? Hmmm.

One last time, for the cheap seats: I. DO. NOT. TRAIN. M. M. A. !!!!!

It shows exactly how much you are listening to in this thread, and how you are more intent on forming your next post.



What has that got to do with anything? You can have a swiss army jab for all I care - it could be good for everything from a knockout to opening a can of beans - but until you use it on a person, or that can of beans, its just flapping at ghosts.



How can you judge a kata performance on anything other than aesthetics? You cant judge it on power (the techniques do not connect with anything, and we all know the karate trick of spending extra cash on a Gi that will give that 'snap' noise to impress on grading day). You cant judge it on accuracy in relation to target (there is none), and you cant judge it on depth of understanding of the multi faceted ethos behind it - again, because you have no one to apply the technique to in any way shape of form.

As for the karate I studied. My first style was Shukokai, and the class was very 'kata-centric', with point sparring thrown in. I quit when young, but a friend I introduced to the club went on to get his shodan. As it happened, he won several national Kata competition, but never reached any level of recognition in kumite. Funny that eh?

The second style was not a good example anyway, but again was oriented to Kata. In sparring, at one point I was actively told to ease off as it was 'disrespectful' for a white belt (me) to be handing a brown belt his own a$$. Again, this guy looked awesome in kata.

I moved on and away, and found Savate (NOT MMA) , which is a striking art. Grading is optional, but how it works is that dependant on the grade being tested for, you have to display certain key techniques in a live sparring environment - the higher the grade, the more difficult the techniques you have to look to use, and execute.

If anyone stood in front of our instructor, and went through a demonstration of kicks and punches in thin air, it would not sway the grading one bit, no matter how good it looked.

Taking kata to its extreme conclusion, would you say that the XMAists, who could perform any kata you chose to physical perfection, would be displaying fighting skill by doing so, or would it 'not count'

I made no such claim. I clearly meant that a 185lb Silva would be able to hang with some heavyweights because of his skill. Same thing with GSP at 170. You were the one that brought up them bulking up, not me. Please read what I actually write. I realize full well that type of match isn't going to happen.



Yes, exactly. You have to train it at least to be able to defeat it. That's what I've been saying all along.



Shifting your argument again. I didn't mention specific techniques. Only that every MMA fighter must know some BJJ. I can't help that you keep using bad examples.



Again, BJJ is the foundation of MMA as we know it, as much as this must pain you. I have never said that Machida doesn't train karate, anyway, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. Has anyone here said that Machida doesn't train karate? I have questioned the degree of his karate's involvement, but accept that it DOES CLEARLY play a part in his skill.



Didn't I concede that before? You enjoy repeating yourself, I guess. *shrug*



Oh, OK. So now NFL athletes aren't elite anymore. Got it. It seems crazy, I know, but I think that MMA is so different from other sports, that maybe.....just maybe......their athleticism will only take them so far without the specific skills needed for MMA. We'll see better after TUF 10, yes?



I keep talking about MMA athletes, and other people bring up NFL, and basketball, etc, like that has something to do with fighting. It's like people want to shift their argument because they can't make a good case for the point being discussed. But what do I know.



In *application*, a technique can only be one thing at a time, meaning that kata is no more free than sparring. I assume your real name is not Charles Xavier, right? The rest of us have to fight with our hands and feet.

So we agree that its not likely Silva or St. Pierre would fight a heavy weight at under 200lbs.



Okay, fair enough.



Soon every UFC light heavyweight will need to know traditional karate if they hope to hold the title in the next couple of years.



I wouldn't go that far. In fact, MMA has evolved past BJJ.

And F.Y.I. it was JKogas who made the statement on this thread that Machida trains "MMA" and not karate. And others backed up his claim. Just read earlier in the thread. However, he has not chimed and made that claim regarding any other art in relation to MMA. I wonder why.




No, many NFL athletes are elite. Retired, over the hill, can't cut it anymore ones aren't. News flash, athletic talent comes and goes, it doesn't stay with us forever. NOT being in the NFL is a huge sign of declining athletic ability. I have yet to see anyone quit the league to compete in MMA. But I have seen guys who can no longer cut it in the NFL go that route. Wait, isn't that what Lesnar did?



I am referring to a base level of athleticism, which can be measure independent of one's participation in MMA. Now the question is can that individual use it in MMA.



That's if your only using one technique/hand at a time. I can overhook your arm with one arm and hit you with the other. That is one technique used to do two things.

*headdesk*



That's possible. Vitor seems to think he needs it!



*sound of buzzer*

Man, Marcel. We could have some less divisive debates if you would stop with all the semantics. MMA has NOT evolved past BJJ. BJJ is the foundation - a big difference. MMA has evolved past all singular arts......about 10 years ago. No one is trying to say that BJJ RULZ, because it clearly doesn't by itself. Matt Hughes put the nail in that coffin years ago. But no one will get far without some training in it. Even you can't deny that fact, whether you think of me as a fanboy or not. No other art is as pervasive.



And how many NFL guys have gone into pro-wrestling? I guess that proves that pro-wrestling is more "elite" skillwise than football, huh? Or maybe......It's a different skillset. But look how many NFL guys are starting to turn to MMA-style training for conditioning. I wonder what that means!



And the answer is: not always, which makes that line of reasoning irrelevant, which is my point. Yeah, someone may have an awesome 40 yard dash, or a fantastic vertical leap. But in the immortal words of Chris Rock, "Can you kick MY a$$?!"



Here we go with the goofy semantics again. An overhook and a punch are two different techniques, Marcel. Count them for yourself. But that's not even what you meant initially and you know it. You meant that a block could be a punch or a grab, etc ("freedom"). This type of intellectual dishonesty is really beneath you. I am trying to have an honest debate.

It means that MMA training is a good means of improving overall athleticism.



Uh, that's what the last line in my statement "Now the question is can that individual use it in MMA." is referring to.



And that is the reason why we CAN'T ever have a real debate on these issues. You believe you understand what my karate and my understanding of karate is all about, but this statement shows you have no clue. You are accusing me of intellectual dishonesty because you realized you did not understand my post on the subject. In the immortal words of ODB...wait, that's not appropriate. I digress. Matt, there ARE others on this planet who have a view of karate you may not have been exposed to. Just a thought.

I'm not really discussing the origin of something this simple

the point is that something like this is practiced in forms/kata, so that movement like this can be practiced while you are training by yourself. Also like I said forms and kata are used more for foundational purposes, imo. You learn these basic techniques and movements. After you learn them, its off to do some training with more resistance. Maybe a drill involving you practicing this movement against an advancing partner? You have to learn to walk before you can run.

I'm sure Machida doesn't need to practice kata all that much since he seems to have gotten as much info as he wanted out of the katas (the striking and moving). He has the basics down, so he can go off to do bigger things.

Thanks for responding to my post Medulanet, it really makes the effort of answering you worthwhile

On a different tack, what I would be very interested in, would be an indepth documentary on the Machida Family's interperatation of Karate, specificaly their whole training and development strategy and their grading criteria.

Just like the Gracie family did not re-invent the wheel, merely made it roll better (se what I did there? ), it is perfectly possible, that the Machida family have taken a different approach to Karate. After all, Lyoto does say on his resume that he trains 'Machida Karate', not Shotokan, so it is reasonable to presume that the family believe there is enough of a difference between what they do, and what I can do in my local karate clubs, to give it its own identity.

Dude.....you're so close. If elite athletes from other sports are looking to MMA training to improve their conditioning, then MMA fighters would have to be considered.......oh hell. I'll let you figure it out. Perhaps A pro NHL goaltender's opinion doesn't matter:

http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/10/08/meet-the-nhls-biggest-mma-fan-boston-bruins-goalie-tim-thomas/

"It seems like a lot of pro athletes have been talking about getting involved with MMA lately. Would you ever consider fighting when your career is finished?

I don't think so. If I would have started actually training when I was younger, possibly. But I'm 35 years old, and unless they open up a 40-to-50 year old MMA category, then I don't think I would be able to take those young bucks on. But you know, I would like to do the training. I thought about doing it in the summer, because as far as conditioning goes, those guys must be some of the best all-around conditioned athletes on the planet, but I haven't done it because of the chance of injury while training is too high."




Uh, well it still makes your point irrelevant, no matter how many times you repeat it.



Actually, you may be right, but not for the reasons that you profess. I don't understand your points because you keep shifting them, or refusing to explain them clearly.



Actually, I understood both of your divergent posts perfectly. The first one ("freedom") was very vague, so you would force me to try to crystalize your idea, which I believe I did correctly. In the second one ("overhook"), you - now horrified that I did, in fact, exactly grasp what you meant - shifted the definition to something else, which didn't even make sense by your own definition ("one technique").



That's possible - but you are not one of them. Tell you what. Since you think I misinterpreted your "freedom" post, why don't you explain - clearly and exactly - what you meant, since it apparently wasn't anything about how kata techniques can have more than one theoretical application. Because if all you're saying is that you can do two things with two hands, that is no more freedom than what any MMA fighter can do. Kata are pre-arranged, so by definition, they aren't really "free" in any physical sense. One could be free to interpret the theoretical applications, but you are hinting that is not what you meant. But if it's not physical, and it's not theoretical, then you will have to explain what it is you mean.

The fair readers of FA.com can decide how badly I misinterpreted what you wrote - and why.

There are a lot of training regimens that are excellent. However, not everyone that does them are elite athletes.



Quote exactly where I am "shifting my points."



Exactly Matt, you understand my karate completely.



Okay, in kata one technique can be used for different things such as joint locking, defending, attacking. And it can be used to deal with a variety of attacks. So, rather than teaching your opponent does this and you do that for several different situations you can teach a single technique to be applied in several different situations. In addition, in karate the idea of simultaneous attack is prevalent and a single "technique" seen in kata can actually be 2,3,4,etc. "techniques." In karate everytime your hands cross your opponent's body you are attacking. How these are used are limited by the understanding and ability of the practitioner. However, when I remove these techniques from the context of "kata" and assign applications to them then the mnemonic is severely altered. The way I apply my techniques then become the my teacher applies his, and this may or may not be the optimal way for me to fight depending on my own individual traits. In addition, the context of application and fighting principles changes based on the underlying fighting principle of a specific kata and even a specific segment of techniques from a kata. However, those applications, once the basic principles are fully developed, are individualized and based on the fighting style of an individual and not the classical usage.

However, you should really watch who you are accusing of things like intellectual dishonesty. There are ways to make your points without attempts to assassinate another's character. It seems you are trying to shift attention from this, but now I am starting to understand how you get down.

OK, if I take it on faith, that from your experience, kata is a direct fighting tool, a sort of 'wikipedia' of technique that can be of use in any and all situations you may face, then may I ask if you see the lack of head/body movement that predominates Kata, as being a healthy thing to ingrain in someone training to encounter fists aiming at what is largely a static target?
Seeing as how the evidence shows the number of fighters with the reflexes to play the 'chin out and safe' tactic is so few that they tend to stick in the mind (Cassius Clay, Naseem Hamed, Mayweather and a few others),and also the fact that they all had fantastic mobility from the waist, would you say that teaching a chin up, static head as the 'go to' tactic is realistic for the other 99.8% of us who do not have the genetic tools to make it work, no matter what our training?
Would you acknowledge that in footage of kumite from point sparring to full contact kyokushin, that this presents itself as a weakness in many who fight?

I hope that this is a joke or I took this out of context.

As I recall when the UFC started up Karate guys, who I'm sure knew a lot of katas, were getting their a$$'s handed to them by street fighters and especially by BJJ guys. In fact the Gracies have a long list of Karate guys they put to shame. So Karate, especially traditional Karate, was found INADEQUATE as a fighting art. And I dare say that traditional Karate hasn't changed much since those days. And not just to point fingers at Karate, other martials arts were finding the same thing. And as we know BJJ guys were starting to be beat as they limited themselves like Karate guys did; thinking their one art was enough. Hence fighters were learning all facets of the game in order to be viable in the ring/octagon. Now martial arts like Karate are incorporating more then just the stand-up to fill their "holes", just like my TKD did with BJJ. No one art on its own is enough, not in the ring.

Machida will be beat, all fighters do. Machida will never be a GSP or Silva, fighters that change their fighting tactics frequently. Just like Chuck Liddell had a run with eventually guys figuring out his style, so to will Machida but I doubt he will have as long as a run.

Already we know Silva could beat him but as they are friends Silva won't go for the LHW belt; so Machida has already dodged one bullet. I hope Machida continues to grow as a MMA fighter and holds the belt longer then the past LHW champions. Sadly if he loses the Karate community will blame MMA and say he trained too much MMA and not enough Karate and that was his downfall, when in fact it may be the latter.

I don't see a static target with no head movement. Do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHL9Qx7_XA

Not all elite athletes can fight. Different skillset.



Time for some glasses, bro. I already noted where you did here:



Now back to your stuff:



This sure sounds like my description earlier of "more theoretical applications".



Which begs the question of why use kata in the first place, since the techniques as shown in kata will require deconstruction or other mental engineering. And you still haven't explained how this is any "free-er" than what MMA folk do.



I an not trying to "character assassinate" you, or anyone else. But I will point out flaws in your logic and your debate style (passive-aggression and obfuscation) as I see fit. I am ready for an honest debate any time you are.

So then why do you insist that there is a great number of pro fighters who are elite athletes?



So by explaining an example of a technique, which you asked for, my definitions/explanations were divergent? Are you serious? One technique, for example, reinforced block has several different movements. As I said, each time one's hands cross an opponent's body can be seen as a method of attack. Get it?




Yes, theory that is applied regularly in my sparring.



Imagine that, you have to think to learn to fight well. I guess that's just a karate thing. But seriously, the thought that your striking MUST look like boxing is an example of the unfree side of MMA. However, karate's application can take on many different forms and doesn't have to "look" like a specific thing because it is an individualized art. As far as the mental engineering if you are taught by someone who understands its application it doesn't. And then through good old fashioned hard training you define what your karate will be.



Okay, dispense with the name calling and acknowledge a view other than your own and we can begin.

Yes. Same as I see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aqOhgHpGFs

Dont get me wrong, lots of power, some great kicks too, but man you could have sent his jaw into next week at anypoint in that footage, not to mention that those caught with the kicks would have handled them better if they had movement from the torso, and a guard that put something between the guys foot and their head.

Clearly, I'm not the only one that thinks so. That's why more and more pro's from other sports are looking to MMA training, since they must certainly regard MMA fighters as "elite" athletes. I'm done discussing this point. If you disagree, talk to Shaq and the NFL players who think otherwise. Your irrational hatred for MMA is coloring your perception.



Ok, what happened was you said "kata is more free", but did not explain or define at all. I made an educated guess as to what you meant. You then hemmed and hawed, impying that I had missed something, and offered a non-sensical of explanation "overhook and punch" as "one technique", when it's clearly two, as I had described in my post about applying "one technique at a time". At no point did you describe how it is more "free" than MMA training.

Got it?




So you agree with me then? Why are you acting like I do not understand you?



I have never said that, so - again - you are arguing with me pointlessly. This is what I'm talking about.



OK, fair enough.



OK, stop attacking me for arguments that I'm not making, acknowledge a view other than YOUR own, and we can begin.

Matt, I like MMA. But if that's what you get from this conversation, I don't know what to say. I am not arguing against MMA, but for karate. However, it seems for many that if you are for karate you are against MMA. So I guess we are done here.

I don't recall that at all. There are many MMA fighters that owe their beginnings to Karate, GSP for one. The argument has always been the effectiveness of kata training for a MMA fighter. And that the dreams and desires of the Karate community is jumping on Machida as he does katas. That by some slim chance they feel vindicated that all of that kata training was for not.

Nobody for once has said that kata training doesn't provide techniques and skillsets. Now these are fine for traditional training but we are not talking traditional training. We are talking about MMA fighting, and how effective it is in this realm. Kata has its place but no in MMA as there are better ways to train that will be more fruitful. That Machida holds ties to his katas is his choice but I and others have no doubt about Machida. He is a fighter, trains as a fighter and trains with methods becoming a fighter. That he decides to train kata on top of that doesn't mean kata is an effective method of training for MMA, it is just his choice. He could stop training kata and wouldn't miss a beat due to his MMA training.

That is the thing that people are forgetting. Machida does MMA training and he still trains Karate. That he finds time to do both is admirable. That he wants to keep ties to his Karate, shares it with his family, and if not mistaken also teaches Karate then more the power to him. But to fight MMA he does not need to continue to Karate train and if he stops doing MMA then he does not need to continue to train MMA. There are two separate entities. They most certainly can help each other but can function on their own as well. And in MMA training katas are not required.

That is all that is being said. Nothing against Karate, nothing against their katas, there is just a time and place for them and MMA is not the place.

Karate as a martial art has many techniques that have helped many fighters; Machida, GSP, Chuck Liddell, Sam Stout and many others. But Karata and MMA are two different things, as is any martial art on its own. Most martial arts on their own are limited but only when you combine all of the skill sets required to fight is it then MMA, hence "mixed" martial arts. Because we found out years ago that one disciplined got your butt handed to you. And when mixing martial arts there are many things stripped away to make room for practical and more useful methods of fighting; and kata most definitely is one of those things less practical.

But Machida uses them, is what we hear and that is being disputed. I don't know why that surprises anybody, there are many people training many things in the world that really have been proven useless, but people still do them. Take a look in the weight lifting world and you will see many people still doing old school lifting and getting results while science has proven more effect ways to train that have proven more effective. That is human nature, we hold on to things even if it is not good for us or even if there is better ways of doing it. And you will find in the MMA world that this is just as prevalent and why those fighters not advancing start reaching out to other trainers and schools to take them to the next level. Machida may be there one day as well.

And finally the success of Machida comes from Machida. No matter what martial art he trained in it is because of him that all is possible. He may use certain vehicles (i.e. martial arts) to get to where he is today but that he chose the blue over the red doesn't mean he wouldn't have got to the same destination.

I have watched many sparring matches of many martial arts and even those of the same martial art and what I found is they fight differently. Sure some of the same skill sets but their rhythm, timing, footwork and style stems from their own uniqueness and finding what works for them. So to say Machida's style is all Karate I don't buy that, that is Machida. Because if it weren't true then why does he fight differently then other Karate people? Why are not more of these same people who do MMA not having the success? Again, all comes down to the man training not the martial art.

What you are saying is good Dereck, however, my response is not only for you, but also the guys here who when even karate and MMA are mentioned in conjunction all I get is, "Its not karate, its MMA." When JKogas said it his statement was not refuted, but backed up. But if I say its not BJJ its MMA all I am told is that BJJ is the FOUNDATION of MMA and my statement is erroneous. No one EVER said all Machida does is karate. We are simply pointing out that karate is a part of his success, kata and all. Now after this post there will be a host of others who will say that I am wrong. That because he trains Muay Thai his striking comes from that. And although his timing seems to resemble that from point fighting it is also found in boxing as well. And although he does kata it in no way helps his performance in MMA and if it does it is simply because he has a unique and uncommon ability. In fact, I will be told that to even say he trains karate for MMA (even though he states he does) is wrong because he simply trains MMA. Although in martial arts we should hope to learn from the past and progress beyond it, apparently because Fred Ettish and Ichihara got beat in early UFCs then their training methods were to blame because they were obviously the best representative of effective karate training of that day and any methods they used are ineffective. Had Lesnar been beaten by Mir there would have been a multitude of posts here explaining why lifting weights and trying to utilize strength in fighting is bad training and had Ichihara caught Royce with a lucky punch and knocked him out everyone would have said karate is the strongest martial art that man has ever created. I am starting to ramble, however, whether or not MattJ or JKogas like kata doesn't affect Machida's training or his winning, and it does not change those who continue to train it regardless of its uselessness.

To enter the Octagon, Machida trains a Mix of Martial Arts, what is wrong with saying that?



Striking in MMA can, and does, come from many, or any background (savate, muay thai, karate, TKD, boxing, san shou, etc), but all ground work in all fighters, involves BJJ, even if it just for wrestlers, Sombo, and judoka to have a working defence for techniques particular to BJJ, so BJJ gets recognised as a cornerstone skillset for MMA.

It is no different than the fact that whilst K1 is open to all striking arts, and has a number of high profile boxers and Muay Thai fighters, it is still a karate competition.



So you agree 'he trains MMA' . Was that so difficult?



Seeing as you just agreed with the rest of us, there is no contradiction, but if he trains MT, then he must use it. If you say no, then why cant we say he doesnt use kata even though he trains it?



Now you're getting it



But you just agreed with that?



Well, Mr Ettish went away from a terrible beating, having looked like he was trying to directly apply a kata to a human being, and had the honesty to rethink, get involved with the Milletich MMA camp, and broaden his training methods. He then came back and won.

Ichihara came in to the UFC with a killer rep (was he 5th or 6th dan? can't remember), and a rep from karate tournaments. Fair play to him, he looked strong on his feet, then it all went wrong quickly on the ground, proving you need more than stand up to fight in the octagon, meaning that Machida must train a mix of martial arts to succeed.



Mir did beat Lesnar. Those posts were made. Lesnar went away and got more experience defending against Mir's BJJ, and got more skilled outside of his wrestling foundation, and cleaned house.



Ouch, do you think Ichihara needed luck, even with his karate credentials. That is far harsher than anyone on here has been on this thread towards karate.



If every karateka trained like Machida in a Mix of Martial Arts,and with proper conditioning and effective sparring then there would be more of them in the octagon.

As it is, there are more Karateka Kata trophy holders than house-cleaners in open fight-sports.

What that says about kata I leave to others to decide for themselves

That's just it Cord, historically, karate men in okinawa have ALWAYS done this. From training in China to practicing the indigenous grappling methods of okinawa. Karate men NOT doing this is a relatively modern thing (the past 60 or 70 years). But no one is saying that the route you mention is not an optimal one. It still goes back to the usage of kata. Which some people find useful and others don't. I'm okay with the fact that some people don't find it useful. It actually seems that some people, however, have a problem with people that do find kata useful. And no matter what the people who continue to use it as a training method to improve their overall ability as a fighter say, do, or accomplish there will always be those exceptionally brilliant people who know better than the people who are actually using these methods. Funny how that works.

But that is literally a lifetime ago, and brings me back to a previous loop in our discussion regarding the quality of karate widely available to people today. If the karate of today has lost the tradition of grappling and being open to training in other influences, and only kept the tradition of kata, then its fair to say that karate is not the fighting tool it once was, as in its present state, it is insular, incomplete and stagnant.
That is what I conclude from your post BTW - I had no idea about okinawan wrestling. I knew Goju had strong links with chinese arts, but didnt know that travelling to learn chinese skills was commonplace either.

If Machida is succeeding by returning to a tradition of Karate lost for nearly a century, then he is more of a critic of modern karate than any kata-sceptic on this thread.

Excellent posts, Cord. Exactly.



Because it is. Please read my earlier posts. BJJ is absolutely pervasive in MMA, unlike any other art. Modern MMA is (not was) built off of BJJ.



The vast majority of "us" have agreed that karate has helped Machida, although the kata idea is questionable.



Well, he does train MMA, utilizing his karate in that context. The problem here is that people from both ends want to minimize the other - hardcore karate people want to think that it's the Shotokan - and nothing else - that helps Machida. The hardcore MMA people won't recognize the Shotokan as having helped at all, since that is only part of what Machida trains. The truth is somewhere in between those extremes.



Well, their methods were indisputably ineffective. But that's not a dig solely at TMA's. My AKK got destroyed, even thought one of the guys was trained and cornered by one of the highest ranking AKK black belts (Frank Trejo). Ron Van Clief got destroyed, with arguably the highest karate credentials of anyone, AND coming into the octagon in fantastic condition. This proved 2 very important things that were NOT being done routinely at most martial arts schools:

* You must be able to take repeated, hard hits

* You must be able continue to fight effectively on the ground



Yes, there were some. And those people are (IMHO) just as bizarrely deluded as those that claim that kata has any functional benefit to fighting skill. Anyone with a brain should know that strength and conditioning are very important.



Only the softest minded people would say that after one instance of that happening. The Gracies already had a long and deep reputation for submitting strikers. It would have taken repeated wins by KO to change the rep at that point.



Agreed.

Here are some good write-ups on some of Machida's technique used in MMA:

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/5/29/892467/bloody-elbow-judo-chop-the-karate

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/10/7/1074923/ufc-104-preview-bloody-elbow-judo

Here is another view on Machida's Style and what gives him an edge.

http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/27899.html

Basicaly its saying its not to do with any particular style but his use and understanding of timing.Makes sense to me anyhow.

Interesting take on it. It ties in with a post I made on a thread about how Japanese sword arts apparently influence Japanese Karate (Shotokan, Wado et al). A lot of these concepts influenced physical stances but also movement too. I made the comparison that many Japanese Karateka seem to favour a linear movement style in Karate. A similar movement style is seen in modern Kendo. Additionally, the concept of "One Cut" was translated in to old school Ippon Kumite. A Karateka had to fell their opponent with a single, powerful attack that had "visible impact". Usually this meant knocking them down/out!!!

The author of the above link stated these ideas come from Japanese sword arts, but it is important to remember that Japanse sword arts may have had a big influence on Japanese Karate, including Shotokan. So maybe Machida did learn these Japanese Sword ideas via Karate. In which case, it is his Karate that taught him the ideas mentioned in the article. Who knows?

I dont think it matters where it comes from. The important thing is that he works on his timing.He could of had a fencing background, a boxing one..anything. If you dont work on understanding timing in the context of a fight,you wont get those skills. So Karate people can say all they like its karate yet they wont be able to do what he does without training timing. That belongs to no style.
Its the same if a boxer thinks he could do what Manny Pacquiao can just because he does boxing. If he doesnt work on timing he wont be able to.

That's a great point. Timing is one of the single most important factors in all of fighting, besides conditioning and fundamental technique.





True, but I think that most boxers develop a decent amount of timing if they spar, because that's where real timing comes from. And most do spar. Pacquiao also has enormous talent and athleticism to go along with that timing.

Definitly. Timing has become intwined with what we would call sports fighting based martial arts or 'alive ' martial arts more than what would be called tradition martial arts.In MMA its timing in relation to every range. Not easy to get.
Its a small detail that I think comes from actualy fighting and people not taught by ex fighters or who dont fight or spar often might overlook its importance. I know I did untill I trained with fighters.

Personaly I dont think just sparring is enough and a seperate study should be done on timing,getting in and out of rythm,understanding half beats and quarter beats,anticipation etc. Manny and Machida and Anderson Silva im sure work on this and understand it better than others in their field.
Just sparring would get some skills in timing over time yet it could all be speeded up by concentrating on it specificaly.From I have learnt anyway.

All this is, of course ,on top of athletic ability and fundamental skills and movement. Also on top of that could be violent intent, the ability to take shots and fitness as things that go beyond any style or skill to make the best fighters.

Those are good points. Drilling as well is always needed. Specific movements need to be isolated and developed. However it's my opinion that without sparring, those movements won't come together in a dynamic situation.

Drilling is where we learn technique, sparring is where we learn to apply technique, IMO.

And you're right on, timing developed through aliveness has long been associated with a "sport" approach, which truthfully is a complete misnomer.

Definitly sparring is needed as the end point or better still, a competative fight.

Drilling is needed to.
I do think that the word drill can differ depending on how we all describe what a drill is.

Where I train I have had it explanined to me that when learning a specific skill its better to take it out of the spar and concentrate on it. The drills we do are done at high intensitys,in fact higher than a random spar as we know whats coming and have worked on what to do. Now do it full on. An example would be learning to defend takedowns. The guy can try to take you down full on loonatic style in the drill just as much or more so than the spar.
The other reason to take it out of the spar is that the thing I might be wanting to get better at might not occur much or enough for me to learn what to do if I just randomly spar.Also I will only be as good as the person attacking me.
I guess the big problem with just randomly sparring,if there was one,would be how to go to high intensitys,like you would meet in a real violent encounter, without injury and being able to learn skills. Rather than learning skills in unrealistic conditions and intensitys.

Exactly the way I think about it as well. Of course when you do think about it, that's the only way a drill makes any sense, otherwise any skill being developed wouldn't likely fit back into the "whole".





I can appreciate that, but my own preference is to use variable intensity, moving from low to high and back, depending.






Exactly! Also when folks spar, they often tend to only "go with what they know", and to never isolate and drill, they won't tend to stretch-out and experiment with new things. As you probably realize, people don't tend to want to experiment during full-on sparring.





I think sparring at high intensity can be done safely with enough equipment. And even then it only needs to be briefly and periodically to be honest.

Timing being the primary thing we're trying to develop, doesn't require high intensity always.

Man, you guys really overthink this stuff. Machida likes Kata and practices it along with mma drills. Machida wins fights. Good for him. So do guys who don't practice kata. So what if it directly helps make him a better fighter or not. Doesn't seem to matter much. If you do it and can fight, congrats. If you don't do it and can fight, congrats. If you do it, can't fight, and don't care, congrats.