Posted by: creative
Cross training for MMA - 11/27/08 10:33 AM
Hey! Haven't posted in a while. Thought I'd bring up the topic of cross training in(for) MMA.
As MMA is a relatively new sport, most accept that we have not seen it anywhere near its fully developed state. Looking at the top athletes in the sport, most have a well rounded game, but most have a strong base in a 'single range' MA e.g. Wrestling, bjj or boxing. These athletes only later added what was missing to become well rounded. Obvious examples are BJ starting with BJJ, Couture/Hughes with wrestling and so on.
Now that MMA has reached a higher level than in the early days, people have seen the need to teach students at all ranges.* Therefore we now have many gyms that are teaching MMA as a 'complete' package. In my experience, MMA gyms I have trained at have a particular strength, be it wrestling/boxing/ground fighting, and have added the other dimensions, BUT nowhere near to the standard of their 'base range'. Sometimes the added dimensions are taught/performed very poorly.
*edit. (Fighers are coming into the sport with 'MMA' being their first art.)
I thought the thread could discuss the following:
Can MMA be taught as a compete package FROM scratch, or must there first be a focus on a given range?
Should ones training environment mostly MMA or mostly individual disciplines? - I believe for example that GSP spends most of his time BEFORE preparing for a fight training in separated disciplines. I believe he trained with the Canadian Olympic Wrestling team also has recently been awarded his BB in BJJ.
Can the non elite but dedicated MAist be 'very well rounded' or will they end up being 'jack of all, master of none'? - How good does your wrestling/boxing/jj need to be when fighting in a complete system?
Finally, is MMA still to young and undeveloped to be taught as a complete system, therefore is cross training inevitable/essential at this point in time? Will this change?
Start where you like!!
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Cross training for MMA - 11/27/08 11:44 AM
I think it comes down to the individual. You are correct in how GSP trains and it works for him. Rich Franklin on the other hand came from no discipline so MMA would be his foundation.
I don't think it will matter too greatly because whether you come from a school that is based on a foundation or not, they both will be breaking down the skills so that certain days will be geared more towards ground work, stand-up, take-downs, etc.
I came from a TKD school that had a huge influence of BJJ and we blended in MMA; in fact had a MMA fight team though they also trained above what we did in normal class. The school I'm currently at trains Muay Thai, BJJ and MMA separate but is most certainly a positive to take them all so that when you do get to the MMA class you have a better understanding; MMA just puts it all together nicely. They also have a fight team; a very successful one that trains separate.
The thing is like myself, everybody is going to have their strong points. I'm better on the ground then stand-up and so that is more of my focus; as will others. This may be what would be considered my foundation then; even though I came from a TKD background. A person going into MMA with no background once finds his strong point then that will be his foundation. The thing is to work from that foundation and expand it to encompass the other aspects of the fight game.
MMA might be missing things but again is new. However many of the older MA are missing things to; so perhaps that is not the right analogy.
When it all boils down I think it will depend on two main factors; (1) the person training and (2) the person training him/her.
Posted by: matxtx
Re: Cross training for MMA - 11/27/08 01:14 PM
It can be taught from scatch though it depends on the instructor and his experiemce ,I think, most of all.Its still evolving and I have not personaly come across too many who could teach it that way but they are out there.I think more will come.
The next generation could be 'pure' MMA I think.The only flaw could be ,like is mentioned ,that if you put the 'pure' MMA fighter under boxing rules and he might get owned.Put him in Sub wrestling and he might get owned.That can be overcome though just realising that could happen and keeping an eye on it and good training.I guess its down to the calibre of the gym and determination of the fighter.
Where I train we kind of seperate at times but keep an eye still on that its NHB.Going further that could,maybe even should,include weapons and surroundings,like a wall to bounce their head off or a table to dump them on etc etc.
Some fighters can specialise and seperate ground and striking and still do it.I think the personality of the fighter comes into it alot.
I have been reading Fedors book and his striking is unorthodox and some of his grappling ideas too.If I posted them as mine Id get jumped on as being wrong haha.But Fedor can do it.Its the same for others.Mindset is important I think.
Idealy your Boxing should be great and BJJ great and I think that should be an aim.Though as MMA they are one.It is striking with the idea of grappling yet also grappling with the idea of striking.Its like a zen puzzle haha.Its actualy one and not seperate.Yet it kind of is seperate.
Where I train we aim very high so defintly aim to be master of all.Dont even worry just aim for it.
Also with MMA we are free to look at runners,gymnasts and any athlete under the sun.Plus any area of mental science.Any area of physiology or biology.ANY area of ANYTHING that could make us just a bit better.Thats why its exciting I think.
Posted by: creative
Re: Cross training for MMA - 11/28/08 08:45 AM
Cheers for all your replies.
Quote:
I don't think it will matter too greatly because whether you come from a school that is based on a foundation or not, they both will be breaking down the skills so that certain days will be geared more towards ground work, stand-up, take-downs, etc
Yes. My thinking is that in the school with a foundation, BJJ for arguments sake, might be teaching all ranges, BUT teaching the other ranges at a substantially lower level than the BJJ.
Likewise the pure MMA class will likely have a coach who was originally BJJ/Wrestling/Box as the current crop of teachers perhaps did not have the benefit we have now of this exposure to MMA.
This surely makes it difficult for students to gain a higher level in each range. So cross training in a system you may want to improve in may be the easiest answer?
Quote:
The thing is like myself, everybody is going to have their strong points. I'm better on the ground then stand-up and so that is more of my focus; as will others. This may be what would be considered my foundation then; even though I came from a TKD background.
I wonder if you feel your strength is ground work as a result of your training environment. If you dont mind me asking, do you feel wrestling is your weakest area? If you wanted to dramatically improve your wrestling, would you do this solely through your school or cross train with wrestlers/Wrestling based MMA school?
Posted by: matxtx
Re: Cross training for MMA - 11/28/08 01:45 PM
I guess the question is does an MMA guy need to know all of 'Pure' wrestling or 'pure' boxing if he will never compete in those bouts?He might only do MMA and for us non professionls it will be street fights or NHB situations so will not be 'pure' boxing or wrestling.
Is it good to spend years doing it to then have to adapt it all ?Does that pay off as much as going straight to MMA/NHB?
Personaly I am working on my takedowns and my penatrative step to then going to the knee, which should skim the floor, is going through alot of banging the floor haha,which is not good for reality.But I have to go through banging the floor to get to skimming the floor.
BUT..will I ever do that takedown in an NHB situation as I can do it in other ways? Does it help to do that first Then adapt after?
Interesting thread as things like this are on my mind.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Cross training for MMA - 11/28/08 01:55 PM
Hmm. I have learned to use a semi-American-football style leg tackle. It keeps my knees from hitting the floor as much, although it is easier for the opponent to stuff. Meh.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Cross training for MMA - 11/28/08 03:05 PM
When it all boils down it is the basics that win the fight; so the basics are what you need. Basics doesn't mean you learn a little and you are on your way; heck no. There are a lot of basics and you are talking basics from every fighting position. You could probably spend a life time training basics and never truly be the master of all of them all of the time and why we must always come back to the basics to retrain.
I had a discussion with my former Instructor during his training for up an coming MMA fights. He was quite proficient in BJJ but said that for fighting most of that was not even used; just "certain" basics. He felt that due to his fight training when he went back to BJJ he would need to retrain all of those basics as much was forgotten due to adapting them for fighting.
I think to be a proficient fighter you don't have to have a super strong base in one art. Much of that art you probably won't even use. What you do need to do is train as a fighter and to develop those skills into your fight plan; which means a lot of it will be thrown away to make room for stuff you will need. So with that I believe you can train specifically as a fighter and come in with no background and still be effective.
What I was relating to earlier it is also my belief to reach the upper levels of MMA you need to constantly improve yourself and sometimes re-invent yourself which means trying different training methods, different schools, Instructors, partners, etc. Why wouldn't you like GSP go train with the Canadian Wrestling Olympic Team to improve your wrestling skills? Work with top Muay Thai experts to improve your stand-up? Work with top level grapplers to improve your ground game? By the time you reach these levels and you are training full time as a career, you need to become "more" and evolve especially when there are some many new up and comers. You need every edge you can get.
Posted by: matxtx
Re: Cross training for MMA - 12/18/08 01:17 PM
Hi John.
Could you elaborate on the 7 basic skills you mentioned that you believe is needed.
Thanks.