Couture vs. Lesnar
Posted by: BrianS
Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/13/08 06:37 PM
I REALLY hope Randy wins!
On paper the odds are stacked against him. He's 45 I think and will have a significant disadvantage to a bigger and stringer opponent. Lesnar actually has to cut weight to make 265lbs! What does Randy weigh 220? But, this is no ordinary human.Randy has beat the odds before when he completely dominated Silva and Gonzaga, not to mention a few big guys before them! I think Randy has the advantage of cage experience,wrestling superiority, and probably striking superiority.
So, we'll see, but I know who I'm rooting for.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/13/08 07:58 PM
Rooting for Randy all the way. But knowing in my heart that Brock is likely to win.
KICK HIS ASS RANDY!!!!!
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/13/08 11:23 PM
I heard the winner has to take on Chen Zen!!
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/13/08 11:23 PM
Brock is going to come out like he was fired from a cannon. That's how he does things. But my GOD, Couture is SO experienced. Not only that, but he's a top notch wrestler in his own right. I think Couture can hang on. If MIR can beat Lesnar, what are Couture's odds?
Couture also has a more well-rounded game now. Plus his clinch is like better than Lesnar's.
But....I wouldn't put any money on EITHER of these guys. I would just hate to see Lesnar as the face of modern mma.
Posted by: bo-ken
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/13/08 11:55 PM
I agree with John if Lesnar wins I don't want everyone to think that he is the man to beat. Randy is amazing but he hasn't fought in over a year and is 45. Lesnar's speed and power are his best weapons he is so fast and his takedowns are impossible to stop.
But Randy has better boxing and his clinch game is second to none. I am going to have my friends over and we are all just hoping for a good fight like always.
Posted by: Novum
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 01:20 AM
Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seems to me like the UFC is trying to cultivate a 'hero' out of Lesnar. I mean, really he only won the fight against Herring, so he's 1-1 in the UFC, that doesn't really warrant a title shot in my opinion. That is unless, of course, they're hoping that Lesnar could be their next Anderson Silva and generate a healthy ratings buzz. They did the same thing for Silva when he first jumped on board, he was a big name and he had one impressive victory so they gave him the title shot. I don't really like the idea of Lesnar winning, but I think it's a sad inevitability to be perfectly honest. He just seems too much to handle. I feel the same way I did about the Matt Hughes vs Royce Gracie fight: They're throwing an up and comer at a man past his prime to try to build the legend of the former. In my heart I root for Randy but my battle instincts say that Lesnar will prevail. It sucks. I need a tissue.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 03:05 AM
Quote:
Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seems to me like the UFC is trying to cultivate a 'hero' out of Lesnar. I mean, really he only won the fight against Herring, so he's 1-1 in the UFC, that doesn't really warrant a title shot in my opinion. That is unless, of course, they're hoping that Lesnar could be their next Anderson Silva and generate a healthy ratings buzz. They did the same thing for Silva when he first jumped on board, he was a big name and he had one impressive victory so they gave him the title shot. I don't really like the idea of Lesnar winning, but I think it's a sad inevitability to be perfectly honest. He just seems too much to handle. I feel the same way I did about the Matt Hughes vs Royce Gracie fight: They're throwing an up and comer at a man past his prime to try to build the legend of the former. In my heart I root for Randy but my battle instincts say that Lesnar will prevail. It sucks. I need a tissue.
I agree about Lesnar being made to be more than he actually is. He was a collegiate wrestling champ, good for him. There is alot of hype mainly because of his size.
Anderson Silva did very well in Pride and was 12-0 as a MT fighter, you can't compare the two. Kind of like Dan Henderson and that other Sylvia guy(axe murderer). They had already proven themselves outside of UFC.
Posted by: NewJitsu
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 04:04 AM
Quote:
Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seems to me like the UFC is trying to cultivate a 'hero' out of Lesnar.
I agree and it's all down to ratings, at the end of the day. Lesnar's a big pull for many professional wrestling fans out there and Dana White's not going to ignore that. Just like if Kurt Angle did indeed try MMA like he claims - I'm sure he'd get a title shot pretty quickly compared to the 'average Joes' who have to work their way up. Hype it up, make sure that people like Stone Cold and The Rock are invited (like with Lesnar vs Mir) and boom - UFC's quids in.
Looking forward to it though! Although I don't see how Lesnar would come back if he lost.
Posted by: BlackPaladin
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 05:02 AM
Remember: this is a business. For example, they have no true rankings system, so that they can book any match they determine will be popular. That is why Lesnar is in there in the first place.
I think everyone agrees that some type of history will be made for MMA with this fight.
Posted by: Aesir
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 05:25 AM
Randy was a wrestling coach and got offered a title shot after 4 fights in the UFC he didn't deserve a title shot then but he got it.
I think Brock has a chance of winning in the 1st-2nd round, past that Randy has the upper hand. I want Randy to win.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 06:27 AM
I agree with Aesir. If Lesnar is going to win, then he has to do it in the first and second rounds. After that, Couture's ability to out think his opponents, and his experience and determination will overcome Lesnar's size. Lesnar is a very tricky opponent for anybody, because he is overwhelmingly powerful, with a great wrestling pedigree. Brian, Lesnar was not just another wrestling champion, he's one of the most decorated around, and when you combine that with his strength and speed, then you've got something pretty formidable.
I'm rooting for Randy, and I think he has the ability to get past the first two rounds, which is when he will start to have his way in a close fight. So my pick is Couture.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 09:19 AM
I'm very familiar with Lesnar due to have been a previous wrestling fan. I'm aware of Randy's abilities and his age and I am a HUGE fan. I watched all the shows last night for the build up of the fight and I am up in the air in who is going to win. I want Randy to win but I'm not counting Lesnar out; though I still have the opinion he doesn't have enough skill and also that he should not have this fight yet. He should be fighting Kongo and a few other guys first.
As I understand the winner of this fight fights the winner of Mir and Noriaga and that person is the Heavy Weight Champions; correct?
Looking forward to watching this; hope the rest of the card is awesome because either this fight will be over super fast or it might be a long one.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 10:04 AM
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hope the rest of the card is awesome because either this fight will be over super fast or it might be a long one.
Yes, the card didn't blow me away on inspection. There's an interesting bout between Florian and Stevenson, but apart from that it's not exactly stacked. Unfortunately, I think the Florian-Stevenson match-up will not work very well for entertainment value. Florian's biggest weakness is his wrestling, so he will be playing it very timid with his stand-up; Stevenson on the other hand is just coming off a loss so will likely be a bit tentative, and he knows he doesn't have stand-up to compete with Florian. I see a boring 3 round decision going to Florian, with Stevenson able to do little on the ground.
Posted by: janxspirit
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 06:41 PM
I'm hoping randy wins this one. He always has a strategy - but it seems like a tough fight nonetheless.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/14/08 09:25 PM
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Brock is going to come out like he was fired from a cannon. That's how he does things. But my GOD, Couture is SO experienced. Not only that, but he's a top notch wrestler in his own right. I think Couture can hang on. If MIR can beat Lesnar, what are Couture's odds?
Couture also has a more well-rounded game now. Plus his clinch is like better than Lesnar's.
Ditto.
I dont see Lesnar dominating the ground game based on size and collegiate record- Couture's wrestling pedigree is better, and whilst he will be lighter, he has phenomenal strength and awareness.
If Lesnar wins it will be a KO/TKO with those heavy hands.
Psychologicaly, its about even- Lesnar is facing a lot of scrutiny and has a lot to prove, whilst Couture is being forced to fight via contractual pressure, when he really only wants to fight Fedor. Will he be able to bring full motivation to a situation beyond his control? Will Lesnar make mistakes in his eagerness to impress? Will 45 be too old? Will 3 pro MMA fights be too few?
In many ways this is a great match up, and all i know is I am delighted that I have neither of them trying to kick my a$$ on saturday night 
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 02:50 AM
Dana and Joe are saying that it is the "biggest fight" because the next fight always needs to be the "biggest fight" in regards to PPV numbers. Of course they are going to pump it up. Realistically speaking, the UFC HW division is severely lacking right now and it would not be that difficult to imagine Brock laying and praying on even Nog to a snoozer of a victory.
Win or lose, I am for Randy. I can't for the life of me imagine any real MMA fan wanting Brock to win. What would that prove? That size, strength and a crash course in MMA wins out over experience and technique?
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 07:51 AM
I am looking forward to see how Couture is going to control Lesner. This wil be a real test for his clinch game. I'm sure he can take Lensar down just as easy as he was doing Silva, however, holding him down, and getting the ground and pound i think will not be happening.
In my opinion a seasoned fighter like Couture will win. He is a great analyst, check out his book if u don't know what i mean, he breaks down his opponents and their weakness', like a true tactitioner. I believe the culmination of years of experience has given Couture the perfect tools necessary to defeat any opponent he faces.
But because of Lesnar power and reach, i think this fight will be won by Randy by submission. Something we rarely see.
Lesnar of course has a real punchers chance, his power and speed for a man his size posses some serious problems. But lets face it he barely has jiu-jitsu experience, which is why he was so easily defeated by Frank Mir with a simple leg lock. I feel this is were Randy should focus.
But i truely hope we get to see Randy's superior clinch game.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 08:20 AM
Fletch wrote:Quote:
I can't for the life of me imagine any real MMA fan wanting Brock to win. What would that prove? That size, strength and a crash course in MMA wins out over experience and technique?
AMEN to that.
Tek9 wrote:Quote:
I am looking forward to see how Couture is going to control Lesner. This wil be a real test for his clinch game. I'm sure he can take Lensar down just as easy as he was doing Silva, however, holding him down, and getting the ground and pound i think will not be happening.
You know, while that could happen, I'm not so sure. Remember when Randy fought Randleman? Once Randleman was on this back, he didn't have a clue. I'm under the impression that he never trained for that scenario because he never thought he'd be put on his back to begin with. Randy took him down from the clinch and established a top position he never lost until the fight was stopped.
I imagine Lesnar doesn't have the best game on his back either. Of course that is assuming that Randy can and will take him down. I think Randy's boxing is better than most people realize. It's probably better than Lesnar's by a mile. Of course you only have to get hit once by a guy that big....
I'm going with Randy on this, but I wouldn't be surprised either way. Lesnar is SO big that he should really be fighting in another weight class.
Quote:
In my opinion a seasoned fighter like Couture will win. He is a great analyst, check out his book if u don't know what i mean, he breaks down his opponents and their weakness', like a true tactitioner. I believe the culmination of years of experience has given Couture the perfect tools necessary to defeat any opponent he faces.
People talk about how well Randy can break a guy's game down and diagnose it's weaknesses. I'm sure he's probably got an intelligent game plan installed for Lesnar. Whereas, I'm betting Lesnar's game plan goes along the lines of:
(Spoken like the Incredible Hulk) "Take...him..down. Smash....him...to...BITS."
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But because of Lesnar power and reach, i think this fight will be won by Randy by submission. Something we rarely see.
That is not outside the realm of possibilities. I had considered this as well. Probably a choke/RNC.
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Lesnar of course has a real punchers chance, his power and speed for a man his size posses some serious problems. But lets face it he barely has jiu-jitsu experience, which is why he was so easily defeated by Frank Mir with a simple leg lock. I feel this is were Randy should focus.
But i truely hope we get to see Randy's superior clinch game.
Nice post. I agree completely.
-John
Posted by: Novum
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 10:28 AM
Lets all take a moment to make a modest and quiet request/prayer to our deity of choice that our boy Randy pulls through. My fingers are crossed so hard it hurts.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 10:53 AM
Amen (again) to that!
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 12:50 PM
Amen from me as well. May the force be with Randy.
Posted by: Kravinatrix
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 02:58 PM
I would like to see a Mir vs. Lesnar 2 where Lesnar can get his revenge
This fight can really only go one of three ways. Lesnar knocks Randy Out, Lays on him for five rounds and wins by decision,lesnar lays on him for awhile but makes some mistake allowing randy to get him in a submission.
Perhaps after this Lesnar will hop back to WWE taking the title with him lol.
My prediction is a win for lesnar in round 2 by reverse
omoplata. He will then procede to F5 Frank Mir.
Just my personal opinion im sure a few will disagree.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 05:48 PM
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I can't for the life of me imagine any real MMA fan wanting Brock to win. What would that prove? That size, strength and a crash course in MMA wins out over experience and technique?
This is an interesting development amongst MMAers mindset. Remember when TMA felt threatened by MMA and it was a regular thing to hear arguments that 'tattoos and agression will only take you so far', or 'there is no real technique in cage fights, they are not MAists at all' whilst the MMA crowd would retort with 'put up or shut up' or similar.
Now we have a guy who comes in to MMA that gets the Cage guys talking like sniffy old Karateka's 
Are Lesnar's attributes based around his conditioning and physical strength? Of course they are. Does he have a training history that would lead him to be somewhat one-dimensional? No doubt. If he manages to find a way to make these strengths and limitations work for him in a live environment will that be impressive? You bet.
Ken Shamrock switched from shoot to work to shoot through his career in the US and Japan. Brock has put a line under his Entertainment career, and dedicated himself completely to real fighting.
Which can be said to have blurred the lines between the two to a greater extent?
If coming from 'acting' to the cage diminishes a fighters credibility, then is Couture's place in the sport tarnished by moving into acting? Does the fact that he was in the Scorpion King sequel make him a worse fighter? Does the fact that Lesnar spent 3 years shouting into a mic. and play-fighting on telly make what he brings to the cage any less dangerous?
Posted by: Kravinatrix
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 06:05 PM
Is rampage still fighting on this card?
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar - 11/15/08 08:38 PM
Somebody shut Cord up. His stingingly accurate observations are really starting to p1ss me off. QUIT BURSTING OUR BUBBLES, DAMMIT.
*pokes pins in the eyes of Lesnar voodoo doll, repeats "Randy Is a Real Fighter" mantra over and over.........*
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar *Potential spoilers* - 11/15/08 11:18 PM
HOLY HELL!!!! I just looked at wikipedia (cant actually watch the fights) and it says Couture won...IS that true?!!!!!
Posted by: Cord
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar *Potential spoilers* - 11/15/08 11:30 PM
Sherdog 'play by play' has no write up for the florian or Couture fight, which would indicate that they have not happened yet.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 12:14 AM
AHHHH!!! Lesnar is champion. I don't care about Cord's good sense, I still wanted Randy to win, and I don't like Lesnar as the champion.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 12:35 AM
Yeah someone apparently was fudging around on wiki, dangit. Couture got KTFO. He could've takin it if he was where he was at when he trounced Silvia. I think everyone underestimates Lesnar a little bit though. On the plus side, Couture is abotu as tough as Lesnar will have to face in the ufc besides Noguiera so we may have a possibility for someone who can take down Fedor. In the near future that is.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 12:39 AM
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I don't like Lesnar as the champion.
Give him a chance, he has only been champ for 8 minutes
As it happens, I wanted Couture to win as much as anyone on here, but a 265 pound, 31 year old skilled real wrestler with heavy hands is not an ideal oponent for a 225 pound, 45 year old fighter coming off nearly a year long hiatus from the cage.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 12:58 AM
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Yeah someone apparently was fudging around on wiki, dangit. Couture got KTFO. He could've takin it if he was where he was at when he trounced Silvia. I think everyone underestimates Lesnar a little bit though. On the plus side, Couture is abotu as tough as Lesnar will have to face in the ufc besides Noguiera so we may have a possibility for someone who can take down Fedor. In the near future that is.
There is no heavy weight in the UFC or on the planet in Fedor's league. It took Randy 5 rounds to beat Tim Sylvia with a bad back. Fedor destroyed a healthy Tim Sylvia in 38 seconds.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 01:14 AM
Brock is no where near being at his best, he can only get better. He stopped Randy Couture in round 2 by KNOCKOUT. Imagine how effective he'll be a couple years or even a year or 2. Take his mammoth size and athleticism, and add a ton of skill by then, and he may have what it takes.
You may be absolutely right But still, Lesnar would trounce Silvia inside of a round or 2 I bet. It wont be logn before he'll be able to do what Fedor did to Sylvia albeit probably not by grappling. I have to say Lesnar has greater striking potential, and could get his grapplign good enough at least to maybe avoid being taken down by Fedor or at least survive on the ground. Not saying now but perhaps in short time. Fedor isnt invincible.
Posted by: Kravinatrix
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 09:10 AM
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 09:15 AM
VID OF THE FIGHT WHILE IT LASTS:
http://www.mmatko.com/randy-couture-vs-brock-lesnar-fight-video-ufc-91/What a great first round! Man, I was out of my seat several times. Randy looked very sharp. His takedown defense and reversals were really good. His strikes were very good, too. IMHO, Randy has NOTHING to be ashamed of in this fight. The older, smaller guy clearly demonstrated that he had more skill.
But in the end, it only took one hit. The weight difference and the striking power of Brock Lesnar made the fight. And respect to Brock - he showed some real improvement since his fight with Mir, and if there ends up being a rematch between the two, Mir better bring his A game.
I think we can say that the torch has been passed, like it or not.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 09:45 AM
Stormdragon wroteQuote:
Brock is no where near being at his best, he can only get better.
What that sentence should have read is, "Brock is nowhere near being his biggest, he can only get bigger.
Quote:
He stopped Randy Couture in round 2 by KNOCKOUT. Imagine how effective he'll be a couple years or even a year or 2. Take his mammoth size and athleticism, and add a ton of skill by then, and he may have what it takes.
The thing is, he doesn't need anything other than, as you said, his "mammoth size". As long he he remains the biggest man (of that skill level) fighting, he'll stay on top.
Yay! Sheer size and brute strength wins out!
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I have to say Lesnar has greater striking potential, and could get his grappling good enough at least to maybe avoid being taken down by Fedor or at least survive on the ground. Not saying now but perhaps in short time. Fedor isnt invincible.
If Couture couldn't drop Lesnar, what are the chances you think of Fedor being able to take him down? I'd say, slim, and none. So wouldn't the whole point about Lesnar being able to "survive on the ground" be virtually moot? If anything, Lesnar will take Fedor down. Don't think it would matter much because at this point, I think Fedor could beat him at about any phase. The window for that is closing rapidly however.
MattJ wrote
Quote:
I think we can say that the torch has been passed, like it or not.
Could be. However I think what we can really say is, another weight division (super heavy) should be created.
-John
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 10:41 AM
I agree another weight division is now needed. In the past there have been huge fighters, but the difference in skill was enough to offset the size/strength advantage. Last night it clearly was not, and as well as Randy fought, he needed Lesner to make a huge mistake to have a realistic chance.
But I think it's good for the sport, we are starting to see truly elite athletes come into the fold, and frankly there have been very few so far. One could argue that Randy is an elite athlete, but he entered the UFC long after his peak (and look at what he did).
Lesnar is a different breed, once we begin to see more fighters with his pedigree who are also highly skilled...look out!
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 11:30 AM
Matt, I agree with your point about Randy's first round. Damn, I thought we were in for another Sylvia annihilation after the way he survived the first round, taking almost no damage and wearing Lesnar down. In the end it was that one clip behind the ear that caught him out, but I thought he had obviously come with a great game plan, and was able to impose his will on Lesnar for much of the fight. Who knows what would have happened had the fight gone 5 rounds.
I think the biggest problem Lesnar can face in the HW division at the moment is Noguiera. He has the submissions game to give Lesnar fits, and the long limbs to latch on to things on the ground. Add to that the fact that Nog has a fantastic guard (you'd expect him to be on his back for much of the fight) and I think you've got a great match-up. Has anyone seen Fedor-Noguiera at pride 25? Absolutely classic fight, and the only reason I would worry about Nog not beating Lesnar on the ground. Fedor is a different kettle of fish however. Lesnar is still not ready for that!
On another note, HOW GOOD WERE THE SUBISSIONS ON THE CARD!! Hazelett's arm-lock came right out of a movie, and there were impressive groundwork displays from Matt Brown and obviously Maia. It is truly scary when you have a guy like Maia who is content to pull guard and has the tools to make it a good strategy. Emphatic win from Florian too, how quickly and easily did he transition to mount?! I still don't think he can beat Penn, but he is definitely the number one contender.
Posted by: shoveldog
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 12:59 PM
Obviously, the UFC needs another weight class. There was at least a 50 lb weight difference last night, probably more. Would we match up a light heavyweight against a lightweight for a "title?" That would be the same weight difference. If Rampage or Chuck Liddell knocked out Nate Diaz, who in their right mind would say that meant anything?
Posted by: Aesir
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 01:43 PM
A new weight class is definatly needed. However Brock may have won this time because of his size there is nothing wrong with that and we should be happy that the sport is now attracting real beastly athletes. I can only see the attention Brock will bring to mma and the UFC as a good thing as long as he keeps improving his skills and doesn't soley rely on his size.
He caught Randy last night that took skill, he didn't catch Randy because he is a huge freak but his size definatly stopped Randy from getting back up. I think it should of been stopped sooner aswell I think if it was another fighter it would of.
The Submissions last night were amazing. I was bored for the first 2 mins or so of the Matt Brown fight as he was just ggeting thrown into the cage like a doll. But it got really good on the ground. The smaller fights were much more entaining than the main event which was sort of predictable. I enjoyed the card and don't really have any complaints about it.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 01:53 PM
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Obviously, the UFC needs another weight class. There was at least a 50 lb weight difference last night, probably more. Would we match up a light heavyweight against a lightweight for a "title?"
EXACTLY! That is essentially what happened last night.
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That would be the same weight difference. If Rampage or Chuck Liddell knocked out Nate Diaz, who in their right mind would say that meant anything?
I agree completely. I don't know how anyone could think otherwise. Did you see the two of them when they met in the center of the ring to get instructions/shake hands?? It looked like a man standing in front of a boy, lol.
It was more than absurd and I just can't imagine that more people wouldn't say something about this or something being done to create another weight class. Then again...
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 01:57 PM
I was not happy with the outcome but that is what it is. As for Brock you have to give him props. He uses his knees very effectively and when he was on the ground he was trying to pin Randy's arm by sliding his knee up over it.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 02:12 PM
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However Brock may have won this time because of his size there is nothing wrong with that and we should be happy that the sport is now attracting real beastly athletes.
The problem isn't that the sport is attracting beastly athletes. It's just that those "beasts" are being matched up with "humans". So long as the beasts are fighting other beasts of the same size, I don't think it's an issue. What happened last night however is just stupid, IMO.
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I can only see the attention Brock will bring to mma and the UFC as a good thing as long as he keeps improving his skills and doesn't soley rely on his size.
I think Lesnar is a legitimate athlete. However, the ONLY thing he has done so far is rely on his size. He's far outweighed all of his opponents so far. Even vs. Herring; you can look at the two and see how much bigger Lesnar was. I don't know of anyone close to that size currently signed with the UFC. As far as I'm aware, Bob Sapp is the only one who is close. Tim Silvia, who is huge, doesn't have anywhere near the muscle mass, and that's the main difference here, IMO.
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He caught Randy last night that took skill, he didn't catch Randy because he is a huge freak...
I disagree. If Lesnar had been anywhere close to Randy's size, Couture would have likely won that fight. It looked to me that Couture was doing as good a job as damn near anyone could possibly do against Lesnar. He controlled him from the clinch and he had good position on him a few times and couldn't get the man down.
Sure Lesnar has wrestling skill. But it wasn't skill that won him that fight. It was his sheer size.
Posted by: Kravinatrix
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 02:15 PM
If there was a super weight division created who else would be in it?
Why does another division need to be created is there not a 265 limit which Brock made on weigh in?
Brock did well, you guys need to accept he is better.
I don't care who he fights next Nog would be the better fight but i would love to see Brock take revenge on Mir. How long is it to UFC92 ? were a good deal of the way through ultimate fighter 8 so it can't be that long right?
It's a shame that Randy lost this fight, he did great in the first round but just didn't tuck his head in enough when slipping the punch.
I wish Fedor gets a fair contract in the UFC and avenges Randy...
Anyway, we have yet to see how Lesnar performs against a striker, all his opponents so far have been grapplers, so naturally they try to clinch up with him and take him down or try to work from the guard only to find themselves on their back with some 'big hamhockers' making love to their face.
Another interesting thing about this fight is that this is only his fourth fight and he's been cut as a result of some minor exchanges. I think if a good enough striker can be found, Lesnar will look like a raw meat dinner.
What we have yet to see however is how Lesnar reacts to being on his back, if anyone in the UFC can get him there...
Posted by: Aesir
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 04:17 PM
The fact that Brock caught Randy was not because he is huge it was because he saw an opening and capitalised on it. You can't go and say if you get smacked in the face that it was because the other guy was bigger than you, its because you didn't get out of the way in time.
Brock has trained to be as big as he is and he made weight, why should he not use his size? It is obviously an effective tool. Fighters already use there weight to pin guys down and help control guys on the ground in the clinch etc you can't say it is now unfair for Brock to do so because he is bigger than the other guys. Thats like telling chuck he can't punch hard against someone who doesn't hold knockout power, it's stupid.
I don't like his attitude or personality but he won, he made weight followed the rules and does have skill. Even if it is just using his weight advantage effectivly against others.
I would be more irked with Brock if he didn't show progressions in skill between his fights. He got caught by Mir because of ground inexperience.
Herring while not exactly a pedigree fighter (imo) still posed a significant threat to Brock having knockout power. Brock controlled him for the whole boring fight not slipping up with his ground game and getting too excited like in the fight with Mir.
Against Randy he remained calm and controlled himself and was pinning Randys arm down, controlling wrists, mounted Randy and then able to catch Randy and pound him out on the floor.
The guy is still green to the sport and noone wanted him to win becuase he is some huge WWE guy invading our sport. Lets be honest if he hadn't been in the WWE noone would slate him this much because he is a good wrestler and is basically a bigger, stronger, faster version of Randy when he first stepped into the octagon.
However you look at it he beat the champ therefore he is the better fighter at this weight class for now. Until Nog comes along anyway.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 04:24 PM
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Why does another division need to be created is there not a 265 limit which Brock made on weigh in?
Brock did well, you guys need to accept he is better.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Brock did well, Yes. Brock is better? NO. Brock did OK, and his gigantic size made up for the skill deficit he had with Randy. Let's be clear about that. Randy was handling Brock until Brock cracked him.
Again, this is not to slag Brock, who is a world-class athlete. But a 50-pound weight difference is simply too large for almost anyone to overcome. There should certainly be another weight class.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 04:54 PM
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Lesnar is a different breed, once we begin to see more fighters with his pedigree who are also highly skilled...look out!
Its the whole could you beat Ray Lewis in a "fair fight" argument. Lesnar is an NFL caliber athlete. Incredible size, speed, strength, agility, etc. There is a point where "skill" is not enough to defeat attributes. Just as the MA world was brought down to earth regarding the effectiveness of grappling, it is coming down to earth again. The days of 170 lbs guys beating 290 lbs monsters is over.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 05:24 PM
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There is a point where "skill" is not enough to defeat attributes.
Agreed.
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The days of 170 lbs guys beating 290 lbs monsters is over.
It's BEEN over. Now, Couture needs to drop down to light-heavy if he's going to continue fighting. Now lets see if Lesnar can cut enough weight to make THAT class
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 05:36 PM
Just saw the fight. Couture, for his size disadvantage, really gave Brock hell. Definitely a better fighter. But boy Brock is a killer. Those were some nasty knees. If he can avoid the submissions, I think he's got Noguiera but he does have some work to do. Bet we're gonna ssee an influx of pro wrestlers soon.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/16/08 06:35 PM
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Bet we're gonna ssee an influx of pro wrestlers soon.
You just took the words out of my mouth. This could not have worked out better for Dana White. He's been wanting the pro wrestling fan base for a long time. This win will prove to be a big boost for White and Co.
Now he and MacMahon can team up, bring in Kane (7' 315lbs), Triple H, Big Show, etc. and clean up!
Before long, we'll have REAL cage matches! I can't wait.
-John
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/17/08 02:22 AM
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If there was a super weight division created who else would be in it?
Why does another division need to be created is there not a 265 limit which Brock made on weigh in?
Brock did well, you guys need to accept he is better.
I don't care who he fights next Nog would be the better fight but i would love to see Brock take revenge on Mir. How long is it to UFC92 ? were a good deal of the way through ultimate fighter 8 so it can't be that long right?
There is NO WAY Brock is 'better' than Randy. He won on pure size and minimal skill.
You could take an athletic musclebound 210lber from the street, train him for a few months, and have him wipe the floor with Urijah Faber(145lbs). It's the same thing.
I've always said that if a smaller guy wants to beat a bigger guy his skills better be more than enough to make up the size difference.
Posted by: Joe Jutsu
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/17/08 02:31 AM
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There is NO WAY Brock is 'better' than Randy. He won on pure size and minimal skill.
You could take an athletic musclebound 210lber from the street, train him for a few months, and have him wipe the floor with Urijah Faber(145lbs). It's the same thing.
I've always said that if a smaller guy wants to beat a bigger guy his skills better be more than enough to make up the size difference.
Brilliantly put Brian. Another way I would phrase the whole issue is, "who would you rather train under?" Performance is different from coaching, but you get my drift.
Posted by: Kravinatrix
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/17/08 06:59 AM
He is a better fighter then Randy, i never said more skilled i said better. Hes better beacuse he beat him and yes thats due to him being alot bigger. His size makes him a better fighter, better and more skilled are two different things. Randy should be in light heavyweight division instead really. Lesnar played by the rules and was able to cut weight and make it into the division, until there is a super-heavyweight division created then Lesnar has a right to be where he is.
Posted by: NewJitsu
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 07:43 AM
So will Akebono and Butterbean have to go into Super Super Super Heavyweight...?!
Size of course plays a part but it didn't stop Mir beating Lesnar. I'm a big Couture fan but hats off to Lesnar. He won the fight but he's not going to win this argument, no matter what; he loses to Mir - we blame his inexperience. He wins against Couture - we say it's thanks to his size... With his pro wrestling background, unfortunately he's going to annoy many MMA purists - big guy coming in and winning the belt in a few months.
He beat Couture fair and square. Couture admitted it, we have to as well.
Posted by: Kravinatrix
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 08:06 AM
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. He won the fight but he's not going to win this argument, no matter what; he loses to Mir - we blame his inexperience. He wins against Couture - we say it's thanks to his size... With his pro wrestling background, unfortunately he's going to annoy many MMA purists - big guy coming in and winning the belt in a few months.
He beat Couture fair and square. Couture admitted it, we have to as well.
Yeah exactly he beat coture within the rules, so he is a better fighter in the division. He won fairly, and i hope to see him further irritate these mma purists.
He kind of tried to humiliate Heath Herring, riding him like a horse lol.
Attributes don't count for everything, Brock got him with a good shot sending him down and was quick to capitalise on it with his hammers. If he had not been so strong it may not have knocked Randy down, but would have had some effect. Brock was good enough to catch Randy with that crucial shot, Randy was not good enough to avoid it.
As for Randy controlling him against the cage, it did not really have much affect on brock and he was happy to play that way and get in his Knee's. Brock is a bug guy he may have allowed Randy to do this so he could pace himself durring the match and not wrestle back so much and play defense against the cage. After all he is a huge guy and is likely to have realised Randy would attempt to tire him out and drag the match on.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 08:20 AM
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he loses to Mir - we blame his inexperience. He wins against Couture - we say it's thanks to his size
Those are both accurate assessments.
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He beat Couture fair and square. Couture admitted it, we have to as well.
Not disagreeing, although without his 55lb weight advantage, it likely would have gone Couture's way.
Posted by: NewJitsu
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 09:34 AM
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Not disagreeing, although without his 55lb weight advantage, it likely would have gone Couture's way.
Ifs and buts though... I've lost count how many times I've seen bigger guys lose to smaller guys. Sure, Lesnar's build gives him a bloody good start but without his wrestling background, determination, dedication would he still have beaten Couture? I think it's a difficult argument to say, 'Oh, but he was bigger than me.'
Couture is an idol, legend and American institution. And he's been beaten by an ex WWE champ. That's what seems to be grating to a lot of people. (That's me speaking as a Brit perhaps. Go, Bisping...!)
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 10:48 AM
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Ifs and buts though... I've lost count how many times I've seen bigger guys lose to smaller guys. Sure, Lesnar's build gives him a bloody good start but without his wrestling background, determination, dedication would he still have beaten Couture? I think it's a difficult argument to say, 'Oh, but he was bigger than me.'
I think the point everyone is making is the Lesnar has enough skill, that his size becomes the determining factor.
Sure big guys lose all the time, but that's because the skill gap is so wide the smaller fighter can take them to church. Not the case here, Lesnar has skill, more then most guys his size.
To say Mir beat him, is a weak argument, Mir was getting his face caved in for most of the fight. Lesnar made a mistake, and Mir took advantage. Hat off to Mir, but if your only chance to win is if your opponent make a neophyte mistake?
How many fighters line up and think...Holy Cr@p I hope he does something stupid!
Lesnar won that fight, no question. But he still needs his size to tip the balance against the Mir's and Coutures of the world.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 10:55 AM
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To say Mir beat him, is a weak argument, Mir was getting his face caved in for most of the fight. Lesnar made a mistake, and Mir took advantage. Hat off to Mir, but if your only chance to win is if your opponent make a neophyte mistake?
*sound of buzzer*
Mir most certainly did not win because he was smaller or weaker. He won because he had more skill. A knee-bar is not like a left hook - you will not accidently/unintentionally knee-bar someone. That is a technical move that does not result from luck. Note the set-up that Frank had to do, to get it!
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 11:25 AM
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*sound of buzzer*
Mir most certainly did not win because he was smaller or weaker. He won because he had more skill. A knee-bar is not like a left hook - you will not accidently/unintentionally knee-bar someone. That is a technical move that does not result from luck. Note the set-up that Frank had to do, to get it!
I think that is what I am saying. The "luck" was not that Mir got lucky in his technique, the Luck was Lesnar made some serious mistakes. He had Mir all but out, but couldn't finish due to his lack of experience. Hell I barely know the guy and I know he is wicked dangerous on his back! So why stand over him, trying to figure out what to do! Because Lesnar didn't know any better.
Mir did an awesome job, but he needed Lesnar to screw up to win, the beginning of that fight was like throwing darts at a tank.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 11:57 AM
Ok, gotcha. I msunderstood your post, apologies.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 12:01 PM
I'd have to agree, Mir won due to Brock's mistake. Mir was losing the fight and big but was able to capitalize on a mistake due to his sound ground work. If Brock did not put himself in the position or knew the escape; Mir would have lost.
I have no problem with Brock being a former WWE star; doesn't bother me a bit. What bothers me is he came from a record of 1-1 in the UFC with only 1 other win in another venue. He should have fought a few other guys before getting the title shot; somebody like Antonio Nogueira, Gabriel Gonzaga or Cheick Kongo. Or at least guys like Junior Dos Santos, Justin Eilers, Dan Evensen, Antoni Hardonk, Josh Hendricks, Justin McCully, Jake O'Brien, Eddie Sanchez or Christian Wellisch. All of who have better MMA records then Brock; they just did not have the hype and marketability.
Posted by: Kravinatrix
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 12:07 PM
Well considering he won it shows he was ready for the title shot.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 12:26 PM
I don't agree with that. This is how things should have gone down as.
Antonio Nogueira should have found Randy Couture to decide the Heavy Weight belt.
Frank Mir should have fought either Cheick Kongo or Gabriel Gonzaga.
Brock Lesnar should have fought either Cheick Kongo or Gabriel Gonzaga.
The winner of these two fights would then fight each other and then fight against the winner of Nogueir/Couture.
That is more fair as many have put in their time and have fought well. If Lesnar is as good as we are led to believe he would have eventually made it here and would have been more legit with a better record for having fought some decent guys.
Posted by: NewJitsu
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/18/08 12:31 PM
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This is how things should have gone down as.
Antonio Nogueira should have found Randy Couture to decide the Heavy Weight belt.
Frank Mir should have fought either Cheick Kongo or Gabriel Gonzaga.
Brock Lesnar should have fought either Cheick Kongo or Gabriel Gonzaga.
The winner of these two fights would then fight each other and then fight against the winner of Nogueir/Couture.
That is more fair as many have put in their time and have fought well. If Lesnar is as good as we are led to believe he would have eventually made it here and would have been more legit with a better record for having fought some decent guys.
Sounds good, I agree, but unfortunately this is why Dana White's a multi millionaire and we're not...
Posted by: Cord
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/19/08 02:08 PM
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He beat Couture fair and square. Couture admitted it, we have to as well.
Not disagreeing, although without his 55lb weight advantage, it likely would have gone Couture's way.
on this point, do you think, by extension, that Couture would have lost in that fight if he were facing Butterbean or Bobb Sapp?
Both those guys have been roasted by much smaller guys, both in K1 and MMA matches. I couldnt see either of them lasting more than 2 minutes against Couture.
That means that Lesnar must have more going for him than size and quickness.
The big problem Brock has is nothing to do with his WWE history, it is because he is the embodiment of everything MAists train to be able to cope with. Martial arts as we know them are designed to negate attribute advantage, and appeal to those who feel such ability is necessary, and indeed, possible, on a guaranteed basis. Brock is the guy who reminds us all that there is only so much you can cope with, trained or not.
Thats why he will never be accepted in the Martial community.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/19/08 02:18 PM
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That means that Lesnar must have more going for him than size and quickness.
Not disagreeing at all. I even said that Brock is a world-class wrestler - just not of Couture's caliber. His physical attributes were indeed the tipping point in his victory, IMHO. Without them, I feel that he would have lost. But I do not subscribe to the view that his attributes alone (minus his wrestling skill) could have won that fight by itself. Couture has too much skill.
How do you like these apples?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JUWPK7oUmWcIt would be interesting for Brock if it happened.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/20/08 01:58 PM
This will never happen. Batista is making too much money in the WWE and has the fame to go with it. He's a monster but he is no where near the athlete that Lesnar is in terms of wrestling skill and work ethic or strength. I like Batista, he's big and mean and has an awesome build; cool tats too. He'd definitely be a force in the Heavy Weight division if he came but I don't think a match for Lesnar. I'd like him to prove me wrong though; that'd be awesome.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/20/08 04:09 PM
Well, he is doing a really nice job of droping his right hand every time he kicks...might want to get that fixed before stepping in the cage against a pro fighter.
Then half the guys in there drop their hands when they punch so maybe it won't matter.
Posted by: NewJitsu
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/21/08 06:30 AM
From what I've read, Batista's build is much more impressive than his actual fight skills. When he was in a show over here he got in a bar brawl with a guy half his size who turned out to be a kickboxer. Allegedly Batista quickly backed off. And then quite recently he got into a proper tussle with Booker T... who gave him a nice black eye.
Not that I'm saying I could level Batista or anything...! I'd break usain bolt's sprint record getting away
Posted by: Cord
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/21/08 03:30 PM
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From what I've read, Batista's build is much more impressive than his actual fight skills. When he was in a show over here he got in a bar brawl with a guy half his size who turned out to be a kickboxer. Allegedly Batista quickly backed off.
Thats not how it was reported at the time. The WWE guys were booking into a hotel in Birmingham, UK in preparation for their shows at the NEC. The hotel was holding a Kickboxing tournament that very night, and some who were there to watch the 'real' fighting noticed and started heckling the WWE stars, including Batista. One inparticular, was a European champ at middleweight, and he wouldnt let it go. A fight ensued, and the kickboxer was quoted at the time as saying he had bitten off far more than he could chew. No charged were pressed, but the WWE were billed for damage to a car park barrier, as the impact of having a kickboxer thrown into it left it requiring repair.
Posted by: MattyChi
Re: Couture vs. Lesnar SPOILER - 11/21/08 08:25 PM
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Brock is the guy who reminds us all that there is only so much you can cope with, trained or not.
Thats why he will never be accepted in the Martial community.
I think this is what it comes down to, at least especially for me.
