UFC 85
Posted by: BrianS
UFC 85 - 06/07/08 01:06 AM
Do they have a new one every weekend? lol
Hughes or Alves? Note: Alves didn't make weight (174lbs.)
Bisping or Day?
Doesn't really look like a good card to me, but there could be some good fight in there.
Posted by: Cord
Re: UFC 85 - 06/07/08 02:52 AM
I didnt even know this one was happening till I saw an advert yesterday. its on a ppv channel in UK (setanta), and i am a subscriber so will watch it.
I am a bit confused as to Mat Hughes headlining a PPV. I know he was a dominant champ, and I really like his fighting style, its just that I dont see the point of a big UFC event that doesn't involve a championship fight.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 - 06/07/08 09:01 AM
Brian wrote: "Do they have a new one every weekend? lol"
I was thinking the same thing myself. I just think that Dana White probably is thinking that more is better right now. He may be trying capitalize on the surging popularity of MMA at the moment.
Does anyone know if the ratings of pro-wrestling are dropping while that of MMA is rising?
Posted by: Supremor
Re: UFC 85 - 06/07/08 02:16 PM
More IS better if you ask me. One of the biggest problems with the UFC organisation, is the time fighters have to wait in between fights. Having someone wait 6 months for their next bout is not only bad for their career, but it hinders the ability of the audience to build a personal relationship with the fighters which is so important commercially.
I heard that in Pride, the competitors could fight every 6 weeks. Perhaps it is too short a lay-off, but these are guys with short careers, and fighting just 2-3 times a year is not doing them justice.
Posted by: Cord
Re: UFC 85 - 06/07/08 02:24 PM
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More IS better if you ask me. One of the biggest problems with the UFC organisation, is the time fighters have to wait in between fights. Having someone wait 6 months for their next bout is not only bad for their career, but it hinders the ability of the audience to build a personal relationship with the fighters which is so important commercially.
I heard that in Pride, the competitors could fight every 6 weeks. Perhaps it is too short a lay-off, but these are guys with short careers, and fighting just 2-3 times a year is not doing them justice.
But you cant maintain fight condition non stop, you need down time to recover, and to address issues that become apparent from your fights. Pro boxers fight a maximum of 3 times a year, and to do any more than that would see burned out, overtrained, sub-par performances. The same would happen in MMA. You need time to 'peak', and then time to crash afterwards.
Posted by: NewJitsu
Re: UFC 85 - 06/08/08 05:27 AM
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Does anyone know if the ratings of pro-wrestling are dropping while that of MMA is rising?
In the UK, after speaking to some of my old London friends who are still in TV, pro wrestling has been on a downer since about 2003 whilst MMA is indeed rising. But UFC seems to be heading for burnout through over-exposure. So is holding a PPV once a month or so "capitalizing on a growing market" or "let's try and take as much money as possible before it dies a death" ?
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 - 06/08/08 07:02 AM
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In the UK, after speaking to some of my old London friends who are still in TV, pro wrestling has been on a downer since about 2003 whilst MMA is indeed rising.
Yeah...I figured that "Joe Average Rabid Wrestling Fan" (the one you see up in about the 12th row carrying the sign and jumping up and down during the "action") would have had to make a choice by now. And although he hates it, he probably (only now) realizes that wrestling "might" be fake. So he switches allegiances to the UFC/MMA brand.
Dana White clearly went to the wrestling fan base for his exposure and it worked. That's why I asked. Because you think that at some point, "Wrestling Fan" would have had to make a choice. But I may be off base there.
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But UFC seems to be heading for burnout through over-exposure. So is holding a PPV once a month or so "capitalizing on a growing market" or "let's try and take as much money as possible before it dies a death" ?
I don't think so. I don't believe MMA is burning out, as it seems like new fans are being drawn into the sport all the time. It has supplanted BOXING as the number one combat sport. Whether the pace will continue as it has is another story (events like CBS's EliteXC won't help that any). At the moment though, it isn't going anywhere.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 09:15 AM
Wow, I thought that was a great card with some super fights on it. Perhaps there was no championship bout, but the Hughes-Alves fight was definitely very entertaining. I guess Hughes will get one more fight with Serra and then it's retirement for him. I think that will be a good match, because while Hughes is definitely not the dominant fighter he was a few years ago, I still think he's got enough skill to give Serra a lot of problems. Serra's tough too though, so I'm honestly not sure who will win.
The Marquadt-Leites match was great, but the scoring was off. I can't understand how you could give Leites even one round, it seemed to me like Marquadt had his number all night. Unfortunately he had those two point deductions, the second of which was blatantly wrong and unnecessary, but still I see those as 9-9 rounds. Both guys gassed at the end, but it was still a really good fight, and Marquadt looked really good with his ground and pound.
Swick-Davis was also interesting, although I personally wanted Davis to win. Great job at controlling the tempo by Swick though, Davis always looked like he was reacting to events. It's amazing to me how effective the high kicks for Swick were, he used a lot of them and still had little problems with takedowns. Granted Davis isn't the best wrestler out there, but still it was impressive to me.
Nice to see Bisping win again too, and he looked really good doing it too. Completely controlled the pace of the fight, and frankly bullied Day. Great work by Bisping on the ground, stopping Day from using any effective Jujitsu. All in all, Bisping just looked a class apart. Hopefully he'll get a more difficult opponent soon, I'm hoping for either Rich Franklin or Marquadt. Both of them could give Bisping significant problems, but he needs a challenge after the easy ride he's been getting in his last two fights. Day, by the way, is no push over, but Bisping completely dominated him.
Posted by: Cord
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 10:46 AM
Marquadt put on a good display- even finished the night with a 'tombstone' pile-driver for the wrestling fans
He did deserve the loss however, because that knee was blatantly a foul, and he had been punching to the back of the head in rounds 1 and 2. No way Leites could 'recover' in the sense that you or I think of recovering, after that knee, so fighting impaired for the remainder of the match, he showed real grit, and deserved the win. Marquadt is going to have to improve his conduct/control or pay the price- that simple.
Rogan was making much of Hughes upping his training from 2 to 3 sessions a day, and as he was saying that, I was thinking 'too much'. Low and behold, Hughes comes out looking pale, drained and in a state of catabolism. Massively overtrained. On the other hand Alves comes out at catchweight looking like a full light heavyweight! He may have missed the weigh in by 4lbs, but he filled out another 18 by fight night. So the weakest Hughes fought the strongest Alves and no prizes for the outcome. It means squat though- I would like to see a rematch with both given proper prep time and meeting within their weight class.
Bisping is a beast. say what you like about the quality of oponent, but I have seen good fighters make hard work of 'nobody's' and Bisping is destroying them at his new weight. Patriotism aside, he is really on form at the moment, and easily deserves a title shot based on performance and entertainment value.
It was a really good card- everyone was there to fight, and there was some good balance between technical encounter and brawl, sometimes within the fights themselves.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 11:14 AM
Dominating performance from Michael Bisping. While he still needs some work on his stand-up IMHO (Franklin or Anderson Silva would destroy him before it ever got to the ground), his GnP and ground position were excellent. Superior standing guard passes from Bisping. Made Day look like an amateur by comparison. The UFC will have to raise the bar on Bisping's level of competition.
Thales Leites vs. Nate Marquardt - Excellent side-control escape by Nate Marquardt at 1:55 in the first round. Some good striking from both guys, as well. Definitely an early knee from Nate in the second round, Leites was clearly not all the way up yet. Overall, pretty dominating performance from Nate.
LOL at Jason Lambert mistakenly trying to take Herb Dean down after getting KTFO by Luiz Cane.
Verdum vs Vera: Good striking by Vera, reminiscent of when he beat Frank Mir. Not sure what the crowd was booing about at the end, though. Vera was getting GnP'd viciously by Verdum.
Good card, overall.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 02:22 PM
The Hughes-Alves fight was very telling. Again Cord, I agree with everything you're saying.
I've never seen Hughes like this. Completely dominated in two consequtive fights. Of course Alves is a beast, but Hughes has been that himself in the past. Now he's looking very beatable. That one diminsional game just doesn't cut it anymore. I believe he is going to have to drop down to 155 if he wants to continue to fight.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 02:44 PM
For the fights shown I was surprised I was right about each one; though not how they all arrived at the wins.
Matt Hughes Vs. Thiago Alves
Alves is a beast and I wish he had made weight so that the win meant more. Hughes came in and I thought he looked too small and to be honest I thought he should be getting out of the game. Any of his last 3-4 fights he has not be impressive. In my mind he has nothing more to prove, give himself a pat on the back for a good run and now start to look to greener pastures.
Michael Bisping Vs. Jason Day
Was nice to see my fellow Albertan getting in the ring however I felt even before the fight he wasn't at that level yet; perhaps in the future. Not a Bisping fan at all however he looked very good in this fight and it was a good win.
Marcus Davis Vs. Mike Swick
Davis is awesome and I really like this fighter however I felt that Swick would have something to prove and he showed it for sure with a good win. Swick is legit.
Nate Marquardt Vs. Thales Leites
I like both of these fighters and it was a good fight however Marquardt should have won but with the loss of the 2 points taken away he lost. The elbow to the back of the head was a "bad call", no doubt about it. He has nothing to be ashamed of.
Fabricio Werdum Vs. Brandon Vera
I like Vera as a fighter but I think he needs just something more to make it big. I think he'd do better dropping down to the Light Heavy Weight division. The call was "iffy" to me as I think he would have been easily able to continue and he was defending however take away the clock and just take into account the fight; perhaps.
Jorge Rivera Vs. Martin Kampmann
Kampmann is awesome and Rivera is going in the opposite direction for career wise. I thought this should have got the submission of the night.
Matt Wiman Vs. Thiago Tavares
What a great fight. Both good fighters and Wiman's knockout was great.
Roan Carneiro Vs. Kevin Burns
We didn't see this fight and don't know who these guys are however Burns got the submission of the night that they showed at the end for the triangle choke.
Antoni Hardonk Vs. Eddie Sanchez
This fight also was not shown however they did show it in the "turn around fight of the night". Sanchez looked so punch drunk before he hit the ground; good for Hardonk.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 07:25 PM
Is Bisping ever going to fight someone at top level?
I want him to lose.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 07:44 PM
Brian, I don't know if you remember the fight, but Bisping should have already lost to Matt Hammill. Hammill was freakin robbed in their fight.
He'll get someone eventually but for now, Dana White knows that the Brits need someone to "represent" in order to maintain an audience and the appeal there.
-John
Posted by: BrianS
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/08/08 11:10 PM
I do remember that!! I was so p1ssed at those judges!!
UFC 75
Posted by: medulanet
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 01:28 AM
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Is Bisping ever going to fight someone at top level?
I want him to lose.
He did lose to Rashad Evans.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 07:02 AM
TRUE! I'd forgotten about that one as well (of course, that was held in New Jersey).
I remember pulling so hard for Evans in that fight and remember thinking that he HAD to do something to clearly score points (takedowns, etc). Otherwise, it's difficult to get a decision against Bisping. Hammill had done that and still managed to lose.
I was joking then that you could knock Bisping out cold in the third round and you'd win by split decision.
-John
Posted by: Cord
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 07:28 AM
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He'll get someone eventually but for now, Dana White knows that the Brits need someone to "represent" in order to maintain an audience and the appeal there.
Whilst Bisping gets all the patriotic applause when he fights in the UK, if you ask the regular UK MMA fan their opinion, they will say its nice that we do have someone doing well (Ian Freeman never quite fullfilled his potential), but for UFC, most Brits have more love for Liddel and Griffin than Bisping.
If we want to see Brits fight, we have Cage Rage for that. UFC we like the same guys as everyone else in the rest of the world.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 09:02 AM
Yes, I agree Cord. I don't think anyone in the UK's interest is dependent on Bisping winning. It's nice, but honestly, give us a bit more credit!
In fact, I see it the other way around. The Americans seem to have way overreacted to the Bisping-Hamill fight, it's not like it was Bisping's fault that the judges gave him the decision; and why berate him because he thought he had won the fight? Ever met a fighter who thought he had lost the fight?
So now Bisping has strung a couple of good victories together at 185lb, and all you guys can say is I hope he loses
Because there's never been biasd hometown judging in the US
Posted by: MattJ
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 10:10 AM
Posted by: BrianS
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 10:32 AM
I never liked Bisping from the get go. He is annoying and too cocky for his abilities. The fact that I want him to lose has nothing to do with the Hamill fight.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 10:35 AM
Nor does it have anything to do that he's British. I think most people don't care where a fighter comes from as long as he has the qualities you like; for Bisping he doesn't for many.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 01:47 PM
Has absolutely nothing to do with the fact he is British.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 03:58 PM
Of course not, not from a personal perspective...I don't care WHERE a fighter is from (just to clarify). That wasn't what I was getting at.
The reason I said what I did was two-fold. 1) To spark conversation. 2) Because I don't think its outside the realm of common sense that Dana White wants a British representative for "his" show (and wants him to "do well").
Posted by: Supremor
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 04:25 PM
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2) Because I don't think its outside the realm of common sense that Dana White wants a British representative for "his" show (and wants him to "do well").
Now this I can understand. White has been pushing Roger Huerta due to his Mexican roots, although Huerta in my opinion is the real deal with the amazing fights he has had. Likewise, I just read on Sherdog about the UFC hoping to market Dong Hyun Kim to the Korean market:
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles.asp?n_id=13130
If he is trying to do this with Bisping, then he is probably barking up the wrong tree, because there is simply not the same fanatacism to home-grown fighters in Britain as their is in some other countries.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 04:28 PM
I see where this could work.
I watched boxing a bit more when Jermain Taylor was doing good.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 04:30 PM
Right. I believe Dana feels like, that if he can get a particular "National" to do well, his company can get a better foothold within that particular locale.
The problem with that should be obvious (such as was the case with the Hammill-Bisping fight).
-John
Posted by: Dereck
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/09/08 05:22 PM
I think that Dana White is doing just that; and it is a good marketing scheme. Also with a fighter such as Bisping in winning position, others who train in the MMA in England and surrounding areas may become potential fighters or at least supporters by watching and forking out cash for it on PPV or when they come and visit. And thought Bisping may not be even a crowd favorite as Supremor said, he still gets the cheers and people standing when he comes down to the ring or wins ... which says a lot to Dana.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/10/08 03:50 AM
About Matt Hughes, what would it take for him to get on the up side again? Go to a smaller organization fighting lower level guys to get some easyish wins and get his heart back and then also switch to a different camp? His only physical weakness really seems to be his striking, maybe a trip to Greg Jackson or MArk Dellagrottes camp would be helpful (same for rich Franklin I think. He's always seemed too big to go any lower in weight, I mean I didnt see this fight but he's always been a huge 170.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/10/08 06:46 AM
Good question. I don't know what his problem is. Dropping to another weight never occurred to me (until now) because he's always been one of the strongest guys at 170.
To sum it up, I believe it's his one dimensional game that is causing him the problems. He really doesn't have the stand-up to bang with the other strikers who have also learned enough wrestling to stay on their feet.
Posted by: shills11
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/10/08 07:37 AM
Dana has just signed Dan Hardy, a very exciting and dynamic striker from the uk
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=news.detail&gid=11928Maybe he will cause more of a stir than bisping has.
And bisping isnt without skills hes never been stopped in any of his 17 fights he has some serious heart
Posted by: Dereck
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/10/08 11:20 AM
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About Matt Hughes, what would it take for him to get on the up side again? Go to a smaller organization fighting lower level guys to get some easyish wins and get his heart back and then also switch to a different camp? His only physical weakness really seems to be his striking, maybe a trip to Greg Jackson or MArk Dellagrottes camp would be helpful (same for rich Franklin I think. He's always seemed too big to go any lower in weight, I mean I didnt see this fight but he's always been a huge 170.
You got to know that Matt Hughes is already dropping weight to fight at Welter Weight. In this fight I saw him as being smaller then he has ever been and especially in comparison to his opponent.
I don't think it is in Matt Hughes best interest to drop to another weight class nor go to smaller organization just to fight some lesser fighters; that will do nothing for his reputation. What Matt Hughes has to do has have heart and put the time into it and I don't see that happening and haven't seen that for a while. After previous fights he talked about hanging things up. After the Ultimate Fighter Show he said he was almost done. It seems that this is already apparent.
What I'd personally like to see, one more fight only from him to finish off his career. Go out with a bang win or lose. Stand up straight for an accomplished career with no shame. One final fight against Matt Sera.
Posted by: Cord
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/10/08 12:17 PM
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Right. I believe Dana feels like, that if he can get a particular "National" to do well, his company can get a better foothold within that particular locale.
The thing is, for most in the UK, the UFC is the only 'real' MMA organisation anyway. You have to remember that Satelite/cable TV only started in the late 80's in the UK, and only a tiny percentage of UK had it until the late 90's. Even now, terrestrial TV (5 channels) is still all that many households have. During the 90's, the early UFC's captured the imagination of UK satellite viewers- in many ways, we caught on to MMA in its infancy much quicker than the States.
UFC 85 would have sold out the 02 arena without Bisping, the same way that the 500,000 who applied for tickets to the NFL season game that was played in Wembley did so without one British National being involved in either team.
Re. MMA being more popular than Boxing- this may well be the case in the States, but Boxing has never had such a high profile in Britain as now- we are in a golden age that has captured the publics imagination. Hatton, Calzaghe, Haye, Maccarinelli, Froch, Thakston, and many others are providing quality cards from world, right down to domestic level. MMA cannot compete with the crest of that wave at the moment, even if Bisping won a belt.
Posted by: Tom2199
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/10/08 02:29 PM
pfft has bisping got any standup? good thing he can gnp
what a cocky individual taking the mic off rogan like that, who does he think he is a WWE superstar?
Posted by: Cord
Re: UFC 85 SPOILERS!! - 06/10/08 02:53 PM
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pfft has bisping got any standup? good thing he can gnp
Well, his first fight at his new weight was pretty much a Muay Thai clinch masterclass- admittedly against a limited oponent, but he still swept him away with knees from the clinch.
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what a cocky individual taking the mic off rogan like that, who does he think he is a WWE superstar?
I would argue that anyone who removes Rogan from a microphone deserves more love than mother theresa.
