Posted by: shills11
rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 02:14 PM
has anybody else noticed how good some of these MMA guys are getting at defending the rear naked choke, pretty soon you'll get fighters not even bothering to try it on some guys.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 02:41 PM
I don't ever see that as somebody will always give up their back and that says, "try the rear naked choke". Because I can't hit somebody with my hands or feet doesn't mean I stop. I used to use the Tree-Up (Americana) a lot until the people I trained with knew how to defend from it and understood when I was setting them up however I may not use it as much but if the opportunity presents itself, I most certainly am going to attempt it.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 03:14 PM
While I think that gloves probably DO make a difference, I also think that a lot of folks are getting better at defending RNC's compared to a few years ago.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 03:58 PM
TBH, I think the gloves are only a minor factor in the difficulty of getting a RNC. If you remember the things they used to wear in Pride... now those things were difficult to slip under the chin.
There are two factors which play the biggest problems IMO. Firstly, as others have mentioned, people are getting better at defending them- i.e. grabbing the second hand rather than the one under their chin. They are also much better now at attempting to escape the leg hooks and spin on top. The second problem is the lack of grips that makes getting chokes generally much harder. When you've got a gi on, it is much easier to set things up- you can leave a hand gripping the lapel under the chin, distract them with something else, then sink the choke in- without a gi to grip, it is difficult to keep your hand under the chin and to manipulate the arm with your other hand. Basically, there are only a couple of ways you are going to get a choke no gi, but with the gi on, there are so many ways you can get caught.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 04:09 PM
No doubt people are getting better at defending. Almost everyone trains jiu-jitsu anymore. It's not like people don't know what the RNC is these days.
While I can only speak for myself, I have seen a difference between grappling with gloves and without. Don't know if you guys have noticed that or not. Enlarging the size of your hands makes it a lot more difficult to fight for the position from which to choke (fighting his hands, etc).
Without gloves, I've not found it all that difficult to sink the choke once I have gotten the back. IMO, getting the back is the hardest part.
Once there however, if you've gotten the correct arm placement (harness position) and/or the underhook, it's pretty easy to defeat one hand thats defending the choke. From that point, latching onto the shoulder with the opposite arm is fairly easy. Once thats in place, locking in the choke is not that difficult, in my opinion. Again, getting the back itself seems like the hardest part (against a good grappler).
I just know that when I have gloves on, the difficulty of getting those positions is notched up quite a bit. That's just been my experience.
How many of you here train with gloves on? Just curious.
-John
Posted by: shills11
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 06:10 PM
one way we've been taught the RNC is to tie up one of your opponents arms with your hooks and lock it in, ive only seen a couple of pros do this (BJ Penn) to name one so there must be disadvantages to it also.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 06:27 PM
Yeah I've been shown that tactic. It definitely can work if you have flexible legs and you set it up well. However, the transition from having two hooks round the body to wrapping one leg round an arm can be dangerous. It is easy to push the guy too low where he can escape, or give him space to turn into your guard. I've only ever tried it in a gi, but I expect it is quite a lot harder to do without a gi.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 07:29 PM
Hooking an arm with a leg works much better when your opponent is wearing a gi or clothes (as opposed to mere fight shorts). Guys will quickly slip out of that. I personally am leaning more toward the body triangle these days and then fighting for arm position. It can a battle, but what isn't.
Posted by: NRNS
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 07:53 PM
Again as has been said, a lot of fighters are getting better at defending the RNC but if set us correctly then it's still a brilliant submission. I know that if a guys has hooks in and has my back not only do i have to worry about thr RNC but also having my ear/side of my face pounded until i give the opportunity to them. Also the short uppercuts under my defence are also a pain and can do some serious damage. I Prefer to not give up my back, or should i say not get myself into a situation where i would need to.
Posted by: kempo_jujitsu
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/06/08 07:55 PM
nothing a good crossface can't fix.
Posted by: shills11
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/07/08 09:44 AM
its widely recognised as the worst place to be (having given up your back) will this always be the case?
I saw Urijah Faber comfortabley defend the RNC against a very good BJJ guy and also saw Babalu struggle to land one after taking the back which tired him out cosiderabley.
the body triangle as mentioned above does look very effective and it can even be used as a spinal lock (ouch)
is this one way forward?
Posted by: shoveldog
Re: rear naked nothing? - 01/07/08 06:52 PM
I was at a BJ Penn seminar where he taught the technique of trapping one of the defender's arms with one of your hooks. He sets it up by reaching under the arm on one side and grabbing the guy's wrist on that side, then falling back on that side, starting to choke with the other arm. The bottom guy defends with his free arm, then you punch that arm down and trap it with your hook. Then BJ recommends freeing your hand and suffocating the guy with that hand while switching and falling back to that side to sink in the choke with the same arm. After the seminar, I went back and watched a couple of his fights and saw him set it up just like that.