Problem with wrestlers

I'm having an insanely ridiculous time with these wrestlers that come to the gym. Granted, I'm only an amateur grappler, but these guys run me ragged. The only hope I've had so far has been to weather the initial storm and pull guard early, hoping they tire out and make a mistake. Sometimes it pays off....sometimes not. I never did any high school wrestling, and these guys have been at it since age 10...patience seems to pay off sometimes, but weathering the barrage of a well conditioned wrestler is tough.
Any help is greatly appreciated.

I think you are on the right track. For myself being a wrestler, when I first started training I relied on those skills and those skills alone feeling that since I could dominate most people that I did not need to learn as much technique. But as time went on those people I was dominating were getting used to my wrestling techniques and started to incorporate more grappling techniques and whereas I was getting tired they on the other hand weathered the storm and were able to equal and then better me. Unfortunate on one hand that I had some injuries that impeded my training but on the other hand to continue training at all I had to start learning grappling techniques in order to continue which launched me in the right direction and propelled me even more.

To get better you have to grapple better people. These wrestlers are what you need and to try grappling techniques on. It won't come over night but you will see bits and pieces working here and there and that will only get better. But not to put a damper on things but a good wrestler who learns good grappling techniques will be a force to be recogned with, which you can see in the likes of Matt Hughes, Sean Sherk and others.

One of my training partners that started to exceed my wrestling skills we worked well with each other and when he got better it made me want to get better. When I got better then he would want to get better. We fed off each other and shared skills with each other to make each of us better. One suggestion would be to share techniques and training with one or more of these wrestlers so they can understand you and you can understand them. In order to do this all ego would need to be put aside ... which is the first step in getting better.

This sounds like a coaching problem to me. I’d like to ask you though, in what circumstances is this occurring? Is it general learning, isolation drilling / sparring or free rolling that you’re having the most problem? I’m asking this for a reason.

Plus, where are you training and who is the coach?

If I were the more experienced grappler training against the less experienced one, I would attempt to be more helpful when it became obvious that I could dominate an individual time after time after time. At that point, you basically become a JERK if you aren't helping your less experienced team-mate improve his game. This is something a coach should be watching for.

If the COACH isn't willing to help, you will have to be assertive and ask your partners to show you what they're doing and the best ways to counter. If they aren't willing to help, consider finding another place to train.

If you're just talking about rolling (and not isolation sparring, etc), then you have several options:

1. Tough it out. You will learn by the experience of going against these guys. In fact, you're going to be learning more than THEY will by dominating you in all likelihood. You never want to be the best student in class because you never improve that way.

2. Get in the best physical condition possible. Wrestlers usually are. But you will also have to learn to relax and be patient as well, although it sounds as if you're doing that.

3. Develop your technique. There are three basic games to jiu-jitsu; a top, bottom and guard game. Obviously you want to develop skill in all three areas. Right now however, you need to focus on developing your bottom and guard games. Make those your goals.

Hopefully you have a coach that you show you how and, will implement isolation drills where you can get numerous reps in with progressive resistance and variable intensity. If not, I'd suggest finding another place or, being content to take the long, tedious approach to skill development. And if you stay there long enough, with the right attitude, it WILL come. Though it may come with the high cost of injury, etc. THAT will be factor that you will have some measure of control over by maintaining the proper attitude.

It's not easy. You're involved in an alive martial art with no "push-button" magical ability to control an opponent. It all comes down to skill. That takes time bro. Be prepared to invest that. That isn't to say it's not fun. The whole process can be very enjoyable, all things considered. With the right coaching and training (and partners), you’ll see your skill level grow very quickly.


-John

Enjoy the ride and take pride in the fact that if you catch them in a sweep or a hold, then you certainly earned it. Wrestling is a sport that develops a tremendous work ethic. It is gruelling and intense. It is only fitting that when wrestlers, who are used to working very hard, come into a BJJ type class where the intensity is more relaxed, will drive the tempo up.

I have had state champ level HS guys come in and train and even one guy from the Romanian National Greco squad. It is always a challenge.

In your opinion (anyone), are wrestlers more difficult to take down than people who study BJJ? I'm interested in the whole learning how to not get taken down thing.

Definitely. Although there are exceptions to every rule BJJ guys look at the guard as a neutral position and will pull guard alot. They train mostly ground work. However, wrestlers train takedowns a lot and how to defend the takedown. If you want to learn the takedown game learn from wrestlers, not BJJ guys. Now MMA guys train both, however, I would almost always want to learn an MMA guy with a wrestling background like Couture than a BJJ guy like a gracie. Their fighting philosophies are more similar to my style of fighting which is to always work to your feet and pulling guard as a last resort.

Wrestlers are generally harder to take down because they've been training that a lot longer than many BJJ guys -- who incidentally, don't also MIND being taken down because the ground is where they prefer working to begin with.

Wrestlers work very hard to get the takedown and to avoid it. That's a majority of their game. BJJ guys don't often work NEARLY as much on their takedowns. Many of them even starting from the ground in practice or, merely working takedowns from their knees in practice.

Of course now there are more wrestlers doing BJJ so that's changing to a degree. More BJJ guys than ever are working harder on their takedowns as well, so its all relative really.

Generally speaking, wrestlers are the harder to take down so if it's takedown defense that you want to train, work with them.



-John

Thanks for the info. I'm pretty much set on trying to get into catch wrestling after I finish my degree here in Scotland. The whole "not getting taken down" thing fits more with my current styles. Although with catch wrestling, I think there's a good ground game in there too.

While I agree that Catch has a good deal to offer as far as top game, the whole philosophy is based on being able to out "wrestle" your opponent.

If you aren't a good wrestler, you will never be good at Catch. Guys that can wrestle better will most always put you on your back and you will be stuck as Catch has little real strategy from the bottom except to escape and reverse which is what your training partners are better at preventing by virtue of the superior wrestling skill.

For a loose example....watch the Pride fight between Catch wrestler Tim Catalfo and Wrestler Tom Erickson. Size was a factor but so was wrestling ability.

I've wrestled but not to the level of many others as wrestling is not as big in schools where I'm from like they are in the United States. However from a recent no gi submission grappling tournament I was in, I spent most of my time in the first match defending the takedown and getting back up. This went on for the entire 5 minutes and when it was done I crashed hard. This is a lot of work and I would much sooner go to the ground and defend from the bottom and use a grappler's mentality then a wrestlers.

We do train to defend the takedown but John is correct, not as much as a wrestler would. We train from stand up but as well from kneeling position, as from this level less injuries can occur and you get go more full out when free rolling. As far as I'm concerned it is all good but I sure wish I had the energy I did when I wrestled in Junior High/High School as it felt like I could go forever whereas now that gets quite draining and my body and especially my brain want to quit and only ego sometimes keeps me going.

Ok, so what you're saying is that if I want to have a decent sprawl game and also get a decent ground game, I'm going to have to find an MMA gym which specialises in Olympic/Freestyle wrestling techniques? Do such gyms even exist?

Ah, if only I were a student in the US, I could have learned highschool wrestling.

Basically, I want to make up for this lack by learning some form of wrestling after I finish university. I definitely prefer wrestling-style takedowns over Judo style takedowns. Just my personal preference. I'd love to learn all the technical takedowns they use and also how they avoid being taken down. I also know the necessity of a ground submission game however, I have a minimal experience in ground grappling from JJJ but I'd like to expand on it too.

Heck, if I could, I'd study freestyle wrestling, catch, BJJ and Judo too but there's only so much time in a day and MA is only one part of my life.

No, I would suggest that since most BJJ and MMA schools have very competitive learning environment, the focus will be on takedowns that work "outside the rules", meaning that you will not be limited to Judo style throws but on doubles, singles and lots of sprawling. Of course you will likely learn the leg sweeps (Osoto Gari, Kouchi Gari, etc.) and throws (Uchi Mata, Ippon, Ogoshi, etc.) as well.

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We train from stand up but as well from kneeling position, as from this level less injuries can occur and you get go more full out when free rolling.

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Why do you believe you can go more full by working from a kneeling position rather than standing? I personally dislike the philosophy of BJJ schools which ALWAYS roll from the kneeling position. It is rather unrealistic for someone who has a wrestler's mentality. Unless working on specific skills I feel takedowns should be worked from the feet. If you want to only roll on the ground then start from there. However, the from your knees stuff I have experienced develops bad habits for those who consider pulling guard a last option.