Leg grabs

Posted by: TeK9

Leg grabs - 03/17/06 12:33 PM

Hello, I'm a Taekwondo practitioner. I would like to know how easy it is for grapplers to grab the leg from an opponent who is kicking?

For instance, if I kick with my rear leg to your mid section, either with a side kick or a round kick at full speed, full blast. Will you attempt to grab it? Is that not dangerous for you?

I am fully aware of what grapplers can do once they grab a limb, what my real question is, how possible is it? Realistically, within the scenerio I gave above, what chance do you have and is it worth it?

-Tek
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Leg grabs - 03/17/06 12:59 PM

I'm a leg grabber,catcher,striker. If given the chance I'll take the leg and you'll go down without me. I wouldn't necessarily take the blow in order to catch the leg,but it can be deflected and caught. The one who's in trouble will be standing on one leg,shortly.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Leg grabs - 03/17/06 01:02 PM

Tek9 -

Many different competitions allow kicks to be grabbed. How "easy" it is to do is totally relative to how good the fighters are. Most grapplers will try to either:

* shoot in or otherwise pre-emptively stop the kick from being thrown

or

* catch the kick on impact, relying on evasion to minimize the impact. With practice, this is not terribly hard, but again, it depends on how good the kicker is.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Leg grabs - 03/17/06 02:39 PM

One of the things that TKD has taught me is the block and punch. If you are fast enough you can limit the amount of force generated by a solid roundhouse by stepping into it and blocking/punching. But instead of countering by stepping back I tend to scoop the leg and trip up the other leg with my opponent going to his back and me landing on top of him. Or when stepping in taking some of the kick and lowering myself a bit and reaching into your groin area and grabbing your other leg and running your over or simply kicking that leg out from under you. Catching a kick is difficult especially from trained sparrers ... but not impossible.

Taekwondo has also taught me about evading and then countering which is just as useful to tie up that person and to take them down. Why try to catch a kick when you can simply get out of the way and then attack. Or I can also get into counter kicks and wait for my opportunity when we get in close to grape vine your leg or sweep your leg(s) or a numerous other takedown techniques.

Basically nobody wants to be on the end of a kick. Circular kicks are far easier to deal with then linear kicks such as the side kick but not impossible. Understanding stand up and grappling makes for a better fighter. Grapplers want to get in close and become a part of you so keeping them at a distance is a stand up person's best course of action. Being a grappler you don't want to get kicked but you are willing to take a little to deal out a lot.

Just like punching your legs will get tired and you will not be as fast and many times you will leave that limb out. That is what a grappler wants, an appendage sticking out to grab onto ... it is like a present.
Posted by: mikez

Re: Leg grabs - 03/17/06 07:53 PM

I came from a few years of traditional Kenpo karate instruction. We used to spar with neighboring academies, which included TKD stylists.

One reason we fared very well was due to the "critical distance" training instilled in us by our instructor. Most dangerous kicks are only really effective at a certain distance. So long as we were aware of this danger area, we could anticipate a kick and react accordingly, which could either be shoot in for strikes, evade, or grab and takedown.

The only problem is that TKD stylists are very good with their legs! You have to react very quickly to prevent getting clocked by one of their graceful, stealthy and powerful kicks.
Posted by: AndrewGreen

Re: Leg grabs - 03/19/06 11:15 AM

Round kick to the mid section - fairly easy to catch.

Side kick - not as much easy to catch as it is easy to slip outside on and get behind you, then it's suplex time

Kicks work once and a while, throw them regullarly and you will get taken down, unless you are also a REALLY good wrestler.

I also don't need to catch your leg to take you down off a kick. I can shoot as you kick, catching you standing on one foot and jamming the kick. I can also check the kick, then shoot. Coming off a kick will make it very difficult for you to sprawl.

So basically, if you don't want to get taken down, and are not a good wrestler, your best shoot is keeping both feet on the ground. But if the other guy is a good wrestler and wants you down, you'll end up on your back soon enough regardless...
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Leg grabs - 03/22/06 10:02 PM

I've seen many guys shoot at the wrong time. Instead of taking the kicker down they get taken down because they run into the knee.

Although I cannot speak from experience, sprawling seems to be the popular counter, but why not learn to time your knee strikes. I mean everyone shoots head first. And a knee to the head is almost a knock out. Since 2 forces are colliding.

This is just from a strikers perspective, and UFC/pride spectator.
Posted by: AndrewGreen

Re: Leg grabs - 03/22/06 11:43 PM

Because we don't shoot head first, and tend to protect it as we shoot.

It's possible, just very unreliable.
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Leg grabs - 03/22/06 11:56 PM

Quote:

I've seen many guys shoot at the wrong time. Instead of taking the kicker down they get taken down because they run into the knee.

Although I cannot speak from experience, sprawling seems to be the popular counter, but why not learn to time your knee strikes. I mean everyone shoots head first. And a knee to the head is almost a knock out. Since 2 forces are colliding.

This is just from a strikers perspective, and UFC/pride spectator.




...and it totally depends on the circumstances. First priority is sprawl and don't get taken down. Second is take advantage of the stuffed takedown to capitalize on your attacker's position and counter attack.

It is tempting for people to watch MMA PPVs and "figure out" that the answer is knee strikes but that leaves out an enormous piece of the equation.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Leg grabs - 03/23/06 02:01 AM

Quote:

I've seen many guys shoot at the wrong time. Instead of taking the kicker down they get taken down because they run into the knee.

Although I cannot speak from experience, sprawling seems to be the popular counter, but why not learn to time your knee strikes. I mean everyone shoots head first. And a knee to the head is almost a knock out. Since 2 forces are colliding.

This is just from a strikers perspective, and UFC/pride spectator.




"In my opinion" those with a wrestling background are more prone to go in head first. I came from a wrestling background and this is something I had to work on. By no means do I have it perfected, but I understand how it is suppose to be done and have used it successfully. The whole idea is not to go head first but lower your body keeping your chest straight while going in and then lifting up while catching your opponent. We do several drills with one where our partner stands straight and you have to do the drill over and over coming in and standing up straight so there is next to no space between you and then lower yourself and move back. Sometimes there is a number and sometimes it is a timed drill. The whole idea is to have repetition and muscle memory to keep your back straight and your head up looking at the opponent at all times.

I'm sure most of the people train similar but yes, the head may go down and a knee can catch you off guard ... but no more then a perfectly timed jab knocking somebody out. Things happen no matter how you train but train you still do as this "limits" these incidences.

TeK also don't forget the momentum of coming forward with a properly timed shoot taking the person off balance and thus taking them to the ground. "In my opinion" more times the shoot will work over any well timed knee. That is when this person better know the sprawl because they will use it far more then any knee will be available.

Though I said it was my opinion somebody coming from a wrestling background may be more prone to doing this, I can remember drills in wrestling similar to the ones we train now where we had to work our way across the gym back and forth until the coach blue the whistle. Drills of shooting forward with the back straight and the head up. I can remember the sore knees from continually making contact with the floor.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Leg grabs - 03/23/06 09:44 PM

In a street fight would a grappler shoot for the legs? I mean isn't that a "no, no" rule in the grappling arts self defense? To me shooting in a real fight seems almost as dangerious as me doing a high jumping spinning turning heel kick.

please remember I have no experience with grappling. What say you kind gents?
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Leg grabs - 03/24/06 01:14 AM

You are correct TeK, in a real altercation on the street I think most skilled grapplers will stay away from going to the ground unless they know without a doubt that there is nobody else around that will interfere. Going to the ground is a last option and I think most would want to stay on their feet if they can. Play the distance game but if they get in close make sure every hit counts and include elbows, head butts, eye gouges, etc. ... just like other martial arts. If can get in close possible a hip toss or a sweep or throw where this will give you time to escape or finish things. Or clinch up and rain knees to their head, chest, legs or blocking arms.

Many of our self defense days we will include similar drills of throwing, tossing or sweeps where once they hit the ground you keep control of the arm through the entire motion and breaking the arm at the elbow against the knee. Or once they hit the ground coming down with the knee to their ribs ... while still holding the arm and using wrist manipulation. Of course in our system, as others, we are able to mix in many techniques from many systems to make ours more effective. In this same scenario while still controlling the arm and wrist manipultation you can twist the arm while moving around the downed assailant causing pain in their shoulder and making them roll on their stomach. You can yank that arm and cause severe damage or lock it in behind their back and putting your full weight on them and dislocating it in this position while still giving you ample time to get out of their or rain down blows to the back of their head with punches or devasting elbows.

Ground is never good if you can help it. Rolling over different terrains, rocks/pebbles/gravel or objects in the way can be painful and distracting plus put you at a disadvantage. A last resort I think for many.
Posted by: sophia

Re: Leg grabs - 03/25/06 02:51 AM

To the initial question of "how hard legs are to grab" very hard on the first kick but it gets easier after several kicks because you have a better feel for the timing. It's already been mentioned but shooting right after a kick is great because the kicker is usually a little off balance and in a bad position to sprawl or counter. I really don't think that shooting is all that dangerous in a street fight but there are different types of street fight (getting your usually good guy drunk friend to behave himself can be a type of street fight). Throwing knees at a shot takes practice try it a couple times (do you train with wrestlers?). Everyone sprawls because it works better. You can use your sprawl to set up knees, that works wonders.