Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial arts.

Posted by: matxtx

Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial arts. - 08/30/08 11:12 AM

This an interesting and informative post,in my opinion, on explosive power and is a different or modern take on internal martial arts and what apparently high level Chinese martial arts are about or trying to be about.

http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/3593.html

This is an interesting comment after a part about isometrics:
''As an aside, if I was going to do Tai Chi, this is the way I’d do it; and I suspect, this is the way it was originally done''.

Not being that knowledgable on Chinese Internal styles,it seems that maybe they were on to something yet its been lost in mumbo jumbo ''chi balls' nonsense or people not fully 'getting it''or applying it unrealisticaly and trying to be too Chinese and mystical.
With a modern explanation using western science and body mechanics and biochemical knowledge it makes more sense and is interesting I think.
Worth a discussion maybe.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 08/30/08 02:05 PM

Quote:

This an interesting and informative post,in my opinion, on explosive power and is a different or modern take on internal martial arts and what apparently high level Chinese martial arts are about or trying to be about.

http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/3593.html

This is an interesting comment after a part about isometrics:
''As an aside, if I was going to do Tai Chi, this is the way I’d do it; and I suspect, this is the way it was originally done''.

Not being that knowledgable on Chinese Internal styles,it seems that maybe they were on to something yet its been lost in mumbo jumbo ''chi balls' nonsense or people not fully 'getting it''or applying it unrealisticaly and trying to be too Chinese and mystical.



Wow, way to start things off on the right foot, anyway....

There are internal artists all over who would get this stuff, why do people always pick the worst of a field and assume that is representative of the whole?


Quote:


With a modern explanation using western science and body mechanics and biochemical knowledge it makes more sense and is interesting I think.
Worth a discussion maybe.



Again it's been done before countless times by people studying Tai Chi as a martial art....the biggest difference I see here is that it is a semi-known MMA/NHB guy advocating and talking about this kind of mechanics and study...this is nothing new to some TMA believe it or not.

Sorry your impression of CIMA is all chi balls and mysticism, that's simply not correct.

The article itself was a decent read.
Posted by: matxtx

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 08/31/08 09:55 AM

The post was meant in a positive and informative way.
Any negativity taken out of it is your problem.Keep it.

Internal martial arts does have a scepticism surrounding it though.Its use in fighting is questioned.
Everyone iv seen talk about internal martial arts has not put it like that or demostrated it realisticaly.
So I found it interesting.
I thought others might.

Where are the Tai Chi people using it as a fighting systems,the best of the field? Because iv only seen the worst obviously.
Dont jump on me.Inform me.

'Internal' martial arts as an add on underneath fighting ability makes more sense.
Not to compensate for lack of fighting ability.The internal martial artists iv seen havnt demonstated much fighting ability.

This is new to me.If its not to you fair enough.Im sure others know things you dont in other areas of life.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 08/31/08 04:52 PM

Quote:

The post was meant in a positive and informative way.
Any negativity taken out of it is your problem.Keep it.



So you were trying to postively come into the Kung Fu and Chinese arts forum and post something from Steve Morris with a blurb at the end about Tai Chi...and that counts as "positive"??

Quote:

Chinese Internal styles,it seems that maybe they were on to something yet its been lost in mumbo jumbo ''chi balls' nonsense or people not fully 'getting it''or applying it unrealisticaly and trying to be too Chinese



yeah that's some positive stuff there, i can't see how I thought you were being anything but positive and forthright.



Dude...just start a debate in the internal arts forum about them instead of baiting people like this, if you're honestly interested in learning about them.

I'm sure people using that forum have never been told of the virtues of aliveness and MMA training methods, how kata is dumb, and whatever else by any of you guys, so go crazy man. I mean it's not as if that's a constant theme in damn near any post on FA.com....right



Quote:


This is new to me.If its not to you fair enough.Im sure others know things you dont in other areas of life.



Definitely true.

Anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkC35VbWGvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pBquv4-VV8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqV2zZ50SU

That's Taikiken vs. Kyokushin.....my point is not to say most IMA people train like this, because I think that's certainly not accurate, merely to say IMA can be trained with whatever degree of contact and roughness you want, just like anything else seemingly.
Posted by: matxtx

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 09/01/08 12:42 PM

Cheers for the clips.

The rest...your problem.It was genuinly not meant like that just how iv seen it.So getting defensive is your problem.Its your negative responce on what I have posted coming from your head.
Forgett it.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 09/01/08 02:50 PM

Quote:

Cheers for the clips.

The rest...your problem.It was genuinly not meant like that just how iv seen it.So getting defensive is your problem.Its your negative responce on what I have posted coming from your head.
Forgett it.



OK, well I think you probably shouldn't be surprised by the reaction given your initial post, but whatever we can leave all that behind and don't need to continue with all the back and forth....

As it fits well with the subject:

http://www.aunkai.net/eng/

These guys train "internal" skills in an MMA-type format from what I understand, with emphasis on "bodyskills" of the kind you find in Tai Chi etc...practitioners.
Posted by: ShaoLimper

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 09/15/08 05:45 AM

I am a practitioner of General Kung Fu[Tiger, Crane, Mantis, White Ape, Dragon, Wing Chun, Qi na fa...] and of Taijiquan. I learned all these from the same Sifu, and he is constantly putting taichi into all the kung fu styles I know. We spar with medium to full contact, and often, I find myself suddenly on the floor several feet away from my teacher. He does it with Taiji[tai chi], but he does it at great speed and ease, as a boxer would throw a right hook.

Aside from myself, he trains Muay Thai kickboxers, and tries to apply Taiji to those as well. His best kickboxing student has been doing some provincial MMA matches, and has been decently succesful, greatly due to the 'soft' touch he has been taught.

Sorry, I am sleepy right now, so I am unsure if this makes sense.
Posted by: BigWiggly

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 10/05/09 10:05 AM

I highly agree with ShaoLimper, Ive pretty much had the same type of experience with learning tai chi. Not only does effectively every blacksash learn it early, but practices it on a regular basis, not only for relaxation and chi work, but for the physical strength you can get out of it. It is a workout and can most definately be used as an entire fighting system. simple moves can be modified from the system and used just as anything from any other styles. While we learned, the senior student who was teaching most nights, would demonstrate what the attack or defensive move could do, and even with slower movements was trowing me off my stances and hitting (although very softly) with quit a lot of power. I do not mean that going down to your nearest senior center that teaches tai chi and see how many old people are going to come slowly parting the horses mane at you, but really look at some tai chi and start to think about it. It is an extra excersise to supplement what you know/learning/ will learn.

I also agree with ShaoLimper's signature. :P
Posted by: Big Furnace

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 11/02/09 08:35 AM

Well, for Tai Chi, a lot of things were pulled from the forms after the cultural revolution. I had the great fortune to find a pre-revolution Tai Chi book (It belonged to my wife's dad, who worked in China as a young man). Since it would have only been a curiosity for me, I gave it to my Sifu.

After reading it, He confirmed that there were a number of elements in it that were no longer taught.

We do an annual public demonstration as part of town street fair, and after he had his rehab patients (He is a physical therapist by day) demonstrate Tai Chi, he brought out his Kung Fu students and proceeded to throw us around using the same motions at full speed. It was impressive.
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 11/02/09 07:14 PM

what kind of elements were taken out?

also I'm sure there exist pre-revolution taiji somewhere, since many MA masters throughout the country fled to Taiwan, HK, or Macao.
Posted by: Big Furnace

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 11/02/09 09:04 PM

I don't have the specifics, but as I recall they were more aggressive (damaging/lethal) techniques.

However, even with what was left in, I will never look at Tai Chi the same way again. Those slow movements at full speed were some effective throws and takedowns.

Now, since Tai Chi is all positioning and frame/structure leverage rather than muscle, it would be harder for most people to pull the techniques off in an adrenaline charged situation.. but that is where years of practice come in, I guess.

I'm also lucky enough where my Sigun is Bow Sim Mark, so my Sifu has very strong roots. He makes crazy stuff look easy. smile
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: Explosive power and real 'Internal' martial ar - 11/03/09 04:39 PM

I wouldnt underestimate ANY martial artist out there that is serious about their training. Regardless of whether its the slowly practiced Taiji or a fast paced boxer, given that both are training for martial application.

Taiji, Bagua, and Hsingyi have some of the craziest stuff I've seen. Also very stand up grappling oriented, which I think is very helpful in a SD situation.