Common Perception but not my Reality

Quote from Taison, "Seriously, I'm not an advocate of any chinese MA, because I believe the whole 'alive' attitude to training, 'simpler is more effective', 'tried and true' and to negate one aspect of fighting is handicapping yourself.

I do a karate/judo mix I learnt from my master, with influences from Sambo, Krav Maga, coupled with my previous experiences in Muay Thai, Muay Boran and reading knowledges gained from "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (my bible).

So don't take the "Wing Chun" advice too seriously. I don't believe in the whole slapping block defense at all. 1 block should lead to the clinch or throw, not another opening for more blocks like in the movies. What use is doing 5 consecutive blocks? You'll just get attacked from behind."

I find it hard to believe that my Kung fu school would be unique in the way it trains. We have very “alive” training that includes strikes, throws and grappling. These are trained in traditional styles, not KF/BJJ hybrids. In-fighting/clinch is practiced almost daily.

I know there are hundreds of KF styles out there. Each one will train differently so it’s hard to make generalizations about KF. Even the names of the styles overlap but are not universal. There’s several tiger styles for instance, each trained differently.

On a tactical level, I agree with Taison that usually one block should lead to a clinch/throw. The KF I train in is very efficient at that.

Everyone,

My opinion is just that. My opinion.

I've been exposed to Sanda, and I do agree my choice of word was put wrongly.

But most forms of Gong Fu has always been forms, chi, dead training or the whole sticky hand cr@p which doesn't work if you put it into the cage.

Seriously, how many strictly gong fu fighters in the UFC or DREAM?

I've seen Judo-ka like Yoshida, seen Karate-ka like Lyoto Machida, and I've seen countless Sambo dudes. But I've yet to see a "Ving Tsun" guy, or a "Eagle Claw" dude.

The reality is; too few gong fu places train 'realistically'. That's the point of my opinion.

If they trained 'realistically' there'd be a lot less 'Ving Tsun' places and more 'Wing Chun Boxing" places with a lot of the theories and idealogies dropped.

Heck some things would be extinct.

But that's from a combative point of view.

If you want to extend your age and stuff, fine by me, do tai chi. But my purpose in MA is to do what it says; hurt others while making minimum damage to yourself.

If another guy calls me Taison one more time, I'm going to break a fuse. Until they get rid of the adds, henceforth call me Donnie or Donald.

~Donnie

I'll agree with you and Taison that if a guy decides to block 5 times, he's not too bright. But if I see a WC guy do that, I'd think hes something of a beginner because I've seen very fast and simple WC techniques. 1 block is all they need, and thats all you should need. Once the bridge is made you move in, no fussing around.

As for CMA not alive and such, I can probably agree with that too on a broad level. Not many CMA train with aliveness or even remote aliveness and so they can't pass the test when it comes to hand to hand combat. But I also feel that many people do not reach the SanDa level of their training. They've yet to learn how to apply all these techniques to an actual fight. And knowing tradition it'll probably take a while for you to learn San Da, only the top students would probably receive that training.

But I'm always one to take a proactive stance on one's training. If you find your training is lacking something, then do something about it. Bring the aliveness to your training because its YOUR training, no body else's. Take control of it.

Edit:
Taison,

Though I would love to see a CMA practitioner enter the MMA arena I don't think it'll happen. Fact is, most CMA do not have a sport side to them. Many strategies rely on hitting sensitive areas (throat, eyes, groin, ear, etc) and most people use these as their main weapons. Why? because it ends the fight.

People train for different arenas. Some people train for health, some to compete in sports, and some for self defense. Yes sports leads to better skills and performance but its not always needed for defense. I don't think theres much of a problem if a CMA guy wanted to enter MMA. Only thing he'd have to do is alter some of his training.

Donnie, I really wasn't trying to single you out. I believe this is a common perception of KF and was using your quote as an example.

I agree that theres a lot of ineffective training out there. I am all for "alive training", and many schools don't do that (kf or otherwise).

I think the future of UFC will include other styles, including kf styles. NHB fighting is still in its infancy. On a local level, there is a vastly diverse range of styles competing. Eventually that will spill over into the national circut.

Michael

everyone,

nice idea of the future..I would hope all these little local san da competitors would open up to maybe a bigger stage. (And I'm talking about traditional CMA guys competing in SanDa fights, not the kickboxing type of matches)

Using my role model, Bruce Lee, who also advocated the use of precise targeting such as eye gouges, throat chops, etc etc, but that DIDN'T stop him from sparring in an 'alive' environment.

Sure, Bruce Lee may not have been a great fighter, but he had the right ideas.

Muay Thai has a much deadlier side to it, but it wouldn't be entertaining if you ended every match within 5 seconds, now would it?

I'm not a sport fan, but I do like the idea of 'tried and true' much like Judo. You use it on a daily basis, drill the thing into your head, and then see if it functions in actual application.

Most Wing Chun-ers I've seen through medias, are so drilled into their system, it just doesn't work when faced with something totally different like, say, TKD who relies on long-distance fighting. It's hard to set up the proper scenario for your system to work~ That's the problem with most gong fu styles. They rely TOO much on KNOWING your opponent, instead of taking things as is.

In Judo, it doesn't matter if he knows how to throw or not, you throw him end of subject. Karate, it doesn't matter if he knows Seiken Zuki or jodan uke, just punch him in the face. A lot of gong fu styles however, rely too much on proper stances, proper blocks, B follows A scenarios, to be really effective.

Common perception?.

Now any moment, ButterflyPalm will walk in and probably yell my arse back to Vietnam and undig my ancestors, so he can show me proper application.

Where was I? Yes, proper application. Anything that has to do with "When he punches like this, you do this" stuff has to be thrown out of the window for starters. Take things as is~ To create to proper opening you have a few options~

1) Feint to attack
2) Attack by combination
3) Distraction to attack
4) Evasive advances

Rarely will any type of block help much, very rarely.

I'm talking fist techniques now by the way, kicking is a bit different.

Blocking a punch creates no opening whatsoever. Boxers have proven it thousands of time when they do 'cover up' which is basically tighten up, hold their hands high and try to 'roll' away the attacker's punches. Although it may remove the edge of a punch, it doesn't create any good openings.

Very rarely do you see in boxing, where you can actually block shots well. A properly trained fist will come in flurries, and the chances of being able to block 4/10 is near none.

What happens when you take a CMA art and expose it to 'aliveness'? It becomes like Sanda.

What is Sanda to the unknowing eye? Boxing mixed with TKD and Wrestling. That's it.

Take the simplest and most effective techniques, put them into an easier form and you get Sanda.

People need to stop thinking like a robot and think like a lion. Just pounce the b@stard already. What's the point in all that 'art and beauty' when it's getting yourself killed?

~Donnie

Don't think I'm prejudice or anything.

If something works, I'll be there tomorrow and apply for classes. Seriously.

Same thing with wristlocks, that's another bone I love to chew at.

-Taison out

I'm not saying your wrong man, many CMA people have the wrong idea of how to train when it comes to application. They just end up practicing forms so much that application gets thrown out the window. They never get taught the fighting methods.

As for the WC dudes you speak of. Its not just a WC thing, its something that probably most of CMA has trouble with. When you practice application its always against someone who fights just like you. Bad. I don't advocate this and don't agree with it. Maybe in the beginning to get their feet wet but after that it needs to be changed.

As for you San Da comment. San Da originates from traditional CMA. The few guys who do understand enough of their techniques to make it to the San Da level of their training know whats up with their training and the effectiveness of their techniques. San Da isn't a martial art per say (to me anyway) its a level that you reach and SHOULD be an aspect of every person's training. Because thats the only way you'll learn how to fight. Btw..its not boxing mixed with anything, its CMA with "modern" training methods.

Blocks = no good. Don't block to just block. To me if you have time to block then make something out it. Parry and set up for a counter attack. To me if you block then your not going anywhere. You take in some damage and then what? Nothing happens. You need to parry and deflect on coming shots, which DO create openings.

Is it a common perception that CMA is whack? yes it is. But I don't believe so at all. Mind you I'm a JKD dude myself so I have a lot of mixed in methods on top of my CMA training. However, I give credit to my kung fu where it counts. Anything I do with my hands would probably lead back to the CMA portion of my training. Like I said..people need to take control of their own training. Train the proper way in any martial art and you will have results. Period.

And your right MT fights that end in 5 seconds wouldnt be entertaining at all. And thats what it is, entertainment. But if you put in the deadly stuff in there then its not suited for sport because of danger and entertainment value.

oh as for the sticky hand BS...I find it very useful when on the ground. Theres a lot of use for it whether your trying to position someone's arm for a submission or whether you just want to pound the guy in the face. Because the arms are RIGHT there and you have to get past them.

Wow, that's too much to respond to all at once. I do agree that the "if he does this then you do that" type of response is not very effective. But there are other options for dealing with a punch and creating an opening. Stepping through your opponents stance works well to disrupt their balance and negate their strikes. Redirecting their upper body also works well. A boxer blocks at the end of a punch, KF generally redirects the entire upper body by moving their opponent from above the elbow. Hooking and pulling the incoming strike also works well, while moving in. The point isn't to stop one strike and launch a counter. The goal is to control before striking or throwing. You don't have to stop several incoming strikes, just take control of the first one.

Wristlocks, as I train them are not usually holds. It's a quick movement on the way to do something else. If it works to hurt the wrist, great, if not - it may buy me a fraction of a second.

Anyway, theres my confusing jumble of thoughts on the subject.

I agree with you there.

It doesn't matter WHAT YOU TRAIN, but HOW YOU TRAIN.

A lot of Gong Fu styles just throws the whole 'aliveness' out of the window, and do the forms so much they've pretty much forgotten what they are training for.

And here's another thing that many 'modern combative' arts are suffering from as well; overconfidence.

Arts like Krav Maga trained to civilians instills a high level of self-confidence, but the problem is I doubt much of it will work under real life pressure.

That's what 'aliveness' is there for. Get rid of false sense of safety and get gritty. Sparring with proper gear and protection will remove all doubts.

Drilling, sparring, conditioning and technical analysis is the key to a proper foundation. Throw one of these things out of the window and you get a false sense of confidence and you'll most likely end up flawed.

Sometimes deadly techniques are just a myth. Like when I taught the knee bar. Master said you're able to break a leg with it so be careful. Ok, I am able to hyper extend the knee, but break the leg? Nope, too hard.

As for Sanda. I must apologize for my bad choice of words, again. I meant that when you remove all the unnecities (how do you spell this word?) you get something much much purer. Sanda, well the sport version, even though it has roots in CMA, looks like boxing (simplest but effective fist techniques), TKD (kicks originating from chambering most common in North Asia) and throws which are pretty damn similar to American free-style wrestling.

Why is that? Because you can only bend a joint or throw a person in so many ways. When you start filtering out the least effective things, you'll end up with the same things in the end.

Sanda is the natural evolution of CMA imo. People are finally waking up and understanding the difference between theory and actual effective application.

~Donnie

I wish more people can get to the San Da portion of their training, it'll open up their eyes to what they're lacking in their training. Not enough sparring/free hand stuff then it will show when you get on that Lei Tai platform. Though the sport version does a great job of promoting CMA I feel that it doesnt represent all San Da because of my own personal definition of San Da. I can practice Tiger Kungfu all my life and my San Da would look nothing like Cung Le's though it could be just as effective, get me?

But unfortunately many people don't get a chance to practice that sort of thing so they lose track of where their training is taking them. They don't ask questions on how to use certain techniques, and when they do they get a nice, ideal, picture perfect answer. I know because it happens to me, so if I can't find aliveness in my training there then I'd look else where to get it.

Honestly, I'm glad I went away for college because its opened up my eyes and has taken my martial skills to a more "real" place. I understand so much more when it comes to self defense. When I go back I find my colleagues are stronger than me in terms of strength and technique but they haven't a clue on how to use it. Something wrong with the picture if a lesser student understands more about the techniques than a higher one.

Preception? Or is it just your Reality.

Wing Chun or any other Chinese art that I've trained or seen at a Master level is quite simple. Even the Brazillian flamboyant art of Capeiro has simple defense. The five block stuff you talk about is JUST for movie or fan fare.

Most Chinese arts (Just like our Karate) may say one thing but do another. In this I mean it may say that a MA nevers attacks but that pends on if you are the one taking the in coming.

By this mean Each at ART a non political or Mono Mono level will attack and end an affair without ever blocking maybe trap, grab to turn you into more strikes, but never really a block.

So even the soft in movement Pakua/Hsing I or Tai Chi, has that as you are thinking about attacking they intercept and Clobber you 1st, NO BLOCK. Just simple, hit you HARD 1st.

What we see at the begining is Far from what done as a Master. Simple said All that fancy stuff said and in motion the end result is they will KYTFO.

A Lin kwuan Kune man showed me an arm break where he jumped up and kneed my captured elbow (would have been a break), powerful and quick, unexpected and simple. Kung fu man looked alittle flamboyant but powerful.

LKK still haven't found out if its a style or philosophy it mean as he stated "continous and returning fist". Fancy but that sh%^ hurts. He punched like a WC man, his golden glove boxing cousin said he was a hell of a street fighter.

Reality is what counts, not movie preception. I know this was for the sake of conversation and this is my 2 cent

the you my or i dont exist and when you figure that out the perception of your reality is second hand at best .