Chin na...recommended reading?

Posted by: harlan

Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 12:15 PM

Hi. I study karate, and have NO knowledge of systems of joint manipulation. Currently, would like to learn a bit about 'chin na'. Any recommended readings, videos, teachers, etc?

Thanks for any pointers.
Posted by: oldman

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 12:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lYphncfIb4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFWS6ZisVE4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dohp8qLQfpg&mode=related&search=
Posted by: harlan

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 01:06 PM

Thanks, Oldman.

Question: when it comes to comparing systems of joint manipulation...is 'chin na' considered part of Tai Chi...or is called something else? Right now, my interest is in learning about the joint manipulation used in karate...and where it come from.

Thanks, again.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 02:11 PM

hi Harlan,

I have a little expeirience on this as it is an interest of my own, get yourself Dr Yangs Jwing Mings Analysis Of Chin-na book and dvd.

Book here - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Analysis-Shaolin...9828&sr=1-9


you will also have far more luck finding an instructor of YMAA than anything else.

Its superbly presented info and very good.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 02:19 PM

Just my luck...broke, with a dying car transmission...and it would seem that Dr Yang Jwing Ming will be teaching a seminar right in my area. Pooh.

http://www.ymaa.com/seminars/boston/shaolin-taiji-qin-na
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 03:41 PM

Harlan,

Chin-na is a generic term in the Chinese martial arts for grappling. Almost all Chinese Arts contain Chin-na.

Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming has written quite a bit developing a systematic approach to understand and study what he presents from White Crane and Eagle Claw locking techniques. He also has a video collection that goes from showing the locks (in detail) to how to use them against various types of attacks. He also shows how Chin-na can be found in Tai Chi.

Northern Eagle Claw is one of the source systems (historical view) of Chin Na. It contains a very wide selection of locks, locking techniques in it's Northern Style forms, and large two person sets using the locks, as well as a unique sparring approach incorporating locking.

Chin Na can be found everywhere. Northern Mantis is essentially a chin-na striking/locking system, using most of the same techniques as Eagle Claw (just a different locking hand). BaGuq uses Chin Na... There have been numerous books on these arts showing their techniques too.

As the Chinese arts have a pleothera of Chin-na, it is logical to conclude that some of those influences were developed in the Okinawan arts.

The representations I've seen of 'Ti' actually look more like Chin-na.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 05:59 PM

much of the Ryukyu Ti I to have seen is remarkably similair to chin-na techniques as well Victor.

The secret is out now.....................
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 10:12 PM

don't know about 'Ryukyu Ti' or 'Chin na' or many other things going by various names. I do know enough to realize that someone could go to a few widely accessable JJ, Chin na, BJJ seminars and learn a few principles, then go back to their traditional Art of choice and teach it under the name of 'Ryukyu Ti' and 'Tegumi'.

The naming seems more marketing than historical or technical accuracy...but hey, if it works, who cares what it's called I suppose.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/07/07 10:33 PM

Hi Ed,

Well you've provided a focused topic for the next time we get together. We'll play with some chin-na (I love the finger ones, my wife used to butcher me with them after her classes with Dr. Yang for 9 months).

As Dr. Yang market's it (in his books, seminars and video's) he's taken his engineering background and structured the various chinese locking studies he practices around specific focuses, instead of the older approach of teaching at whim.

So he's present the entire range of finger locks, wrist locks, elbow locks, etc. at one level. Then he'll present them against a variety of attacks, such as all the ways to lock a punch.

His presenations make for a logical adjunct art, that fits alongside many others.

Eagle Claw's structure is very different. Dozens of very long complex forms to teach the locking patterns. Many very long two person sets to teach how to set up the locks against a wide range of attacks. Thenl EC sparring with no techniques disallowed and each round requiring a different lock to be made before it's over. (This is not a short course but decades of study).

There are some parallels to karate training, and much material that works but is not openly there.

BTW, while we play with it once and a while, just to break things up, there is enough material in our Isshinryu studies to keep us busy forever.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 02:50 AM

didnt mean to offend Ed, I know your a sensative bunny on such things

I use the term simply as it allows me to focus on searching out what I consider (not necessarily historical fact, to hard to prove without a time machine), what is 'Ti' and what is not, the evidence we are finding shows 'Ti' has a distinct flavour of its own (mainly from the bugeikan and Motobu Undon ti).

Its research supports our little quest into training karate, a component of that is a historical search, into the RyuKyu period.

Of course it is no more special than anyone working any other art, from any time, but it is different from 95% of the karate I have seen over the last 21 years, hence the terms.

but when push comes to shove, I just train karate.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 07:52 AM

Victor: finger and joint locks are fun for sure - a point is that the principles of joint locks themselves seem to vary little between Arts...it's the setting them up via entry strategies that appear to differ more than the 'techniques' themselves. JJ has their way, Chin-na has theirs, Aikido has their own, etc. The 'setting up' is what makes a system interesting moreso than the static techniques....and each Art can screw someone up given a antagonist pointing a finger at them.

Jim: 'offend' ? not even a little. In person, if someone says a technique/principle/concept draws uniquely from Ryukyu fighting arts - I take it at face value, since the person presenting it can call what they are showing whatever they want. On a forum, reading it, if someone chooses to describe an armbar as 'an ancient armlock from Greco wrestling' instead of just calling it an armbar - it sortof gives the impression of a marketability spin using terms that can't be verified (even if it might likely happen to be accurate).

like you say, 'Ryukyuan Ti' cannot be verified, therefore of course it will look similar to principles found in other Arts...most likely since it is exacly those other Arts the person presenting it as an ancient system is drawing from.

Even if I could, I'm not trying to discourage drawing from other Arts, nor am I eluding to 'ineffectiveness' of any sort - even if I were qualified to judge (which I'm not). anyway...off-topic.

harlan:
http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-chin-na.htm
Posted by: harlan

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 08:09 AM

Thanks for the reading suggestion and input.

As a beginner, and unfamiliar with the systems 'out there' that address movement and stategies within a martial context, my original question wasn't a 'political' one. I've already picked up a good beginner text that explains the mechanics.

Thanks again for the input. All set.
Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 01:50 PM

coming in a little late, but YJM's books and videos are great, probably the best and will give you a solid foundation in some of the principles and terminology of Chinese qin na.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 01:52 PM

Thank you. Who is 'YJM'?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 03:34 PM

Yang Jwing-Ming
Posted by: ThunderboltLotus

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 03:39 PM

Victor, Ed and Jim

Funny, the Chin na I’ve seen is remarkably similar to Ti

Oh except the footwork, its straight back and the non reliance on the animal passions and by extension the animal postures – there are no claws in the art of Ti….Just hands

…and by extension?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 03:47 PM

or you could say Ti is remarkably similar to Chin na.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/08/07 04:31 PM

Just a small point. Eagle Claw is not representative of the eagle in nature. The locks use a hand position akin to claws, and advanced practioners grips are so strong they literally can leave claw marks in flesh (I have photographic proof of my arm after my friend just grabbed it.)

Most Chinese animal systems are not based on the ways animals fight, they're more symbolic. For example Northern Mantis uses the same locking techniques as Northern Eagle Claw, just with a different hand position.

People are not bulit like animals in most cases. But every rule has exceptions such as Monkey.

Of course the point isn't what animal systems are or aren't.

Claws are ways to grab as locking is performed. The naming is a Chinese origin.
Posted by: ThunderboltLotus

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/13/07 03:53 PM

Hi Victor, yes I was aware of this thank you, (but realise that some reading might not be) maybe this will clarify where I am coming from (here and on other threads)

In my 13 years as a shiatsu bodywork therapist/teacher, I’ve seen, experienced and been confidentially told many things. On some occasions when the bodywork got deeper, the client’s hands would spontaneously assume claw like structures, or other positions of tension, while layer upon layer of deeper relaxation was induced, and surface tension released progressively towards the cause of a particular problem the client was facing in their immediate lives or from some trauma much older. Emotional release and/or tremendous heat would follow, culminating in a blissful letting go, clear mind and whole body deep relaxation.

This is the rejuvenation process and can be seen to be like a battle against the client’s basic instincts and ‘animal passions’ of protection being falsely engaged to protect for example an imaginary fear that has manifested physical stress.

As part of Chin na is also massage (according to Yang’s books anyway) and is certainly part of the Ti I’m describing, it does seem at first glance that these have a common origin. But of course becoming a different development in the environment they grew up in. If ‘ti’ has this origin then it is only the tuite part not ‘ti’ as a whole.

Or maybe there was another origin from the North?

Gripping as an evolutionary progression in martial arts is for tool manipulation in our case weapons to defend against an Attacker. As Ti (or the styles of which I’m describing) is a weapon based system (or in the very least equal emphasis is put on them) - a weapons system mainly bladed that requires a ‘soft’ graceful use - the predominant emphasis is on advanced wrist/hand grappling.

This gripping has been quoted by a senior Shihan of Uehara as a vice like grip – not because of his strength of finger/hand contraction or his ability to form claws (like demonstrated on p.31 of Shaolin Chin na by Yang Jwing Ming) but the releasing of the joints through pressure point work giving the feeling of being crushed. On the other hand pressure points are used to open for example the fingers allowing a disarming of a weapon.

I freely acknowledge in the past some ‘te’ practitioners developed ‘the claw’ and a case in point is this quote in Mark Bishop’s series in Fighting Arts International (part 4)
Describing the first time he was invited to the home of his future Okinawan wife;

“Then there were older stories of the former bushi (or knights), who had been expert at te; one such having been a great uncle who could bruise a man’s arm “merely by grasping it in his hands.” Like other bushi at the turn of the century, he found it difficult to let go of his past pride of samurai glory and subsequently challenged and fought to the death a rival strongman from the village of Gaja, simply because he was threatened.”

Like your Eagle claw buddy its application has/had its use but mature martial arts require a maturing of body posturing that can only come about through releasing of tension (caused by real or imagined stress) not the continued training of.

I stand by my statement there are no claws in ti/te (in its evolutionary form today anyway) hopefully by defining some of the practice/principles therein and visually showing thereof.

Warm regards
Posted by: Gesar

Re: Chin na...recommended reading? - 06/16/07 09:20 AM

Mike,

I think what Victor means is that the term claw is a Chinese term used to describe gripping. After all he does state: 'Claws are ways to grab as locking is performed' and emphasises that the naming is of Chinese origin.
For example take Shaolin Five animals: Claw = Grip as in Eagle's and Tiger's, with mantis claw for hooking (not grabbing), these terms merely describe ways of using the hands.

As for the term Chin Na this simply means to capture and hold it comes from early Chinese wrestling methods and Tien'hseuh (which utilises various meridian points found in Acupressure).
I gather that there was no real systemisation of Chin Na until the Ming dynasty and by the Ching it became standard training for police and military. Chin Na was systemised in the early part of the 20th Century in Shaghai by Tung Tung Nee (1880-1971) in 1934.

Whilst Yang Jwing Ming has done much to popularise Chin Na, his Chin Na is specific to the Yang Martial Arts Association and is not therefore representative of the entirety of Chin Na. For example see Chow and Spangler (1982) Kung Fu: History, Philosophy and Technique, which provides some history of Chin Na and examples of technique which are all performed in upright postures.

Chin Na = to capture (Chin) and hold (Na)
Tuite/ Tori Te = To take hands.
The terms are thus interchageable, depending on cultural and geographic locality. Personally I see no point in debating the origins of grappling techniques as these are fairly universal. There are after all only so many ways you can grab, twist, lock and manipulate the limbs.