Blindfolded chi sau

ashe-higgs wrote

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only if you can't control your opponents mass properly.

Ever watch MMA? Most of those guys are decent wrestlers. They seem to get taken down in spite of the fact that they understand wrestling. Thats just the way it is because it happens in the sport of wrestling as well. One of the two wrestlers is going down at some point.

To beat wrestling, you have to KNOW wrestling. Period. If you can't control mass using wrestling, I've got news for you - you're not going to control it using chi-sao. I don't know if you were suggesting that or not.

If that were possible, we’d have seen it in MMA by now. But you don’t do you? I’ve never ONCE seen chi-sao in MMA and I doubt very seriously that you ever will.

You DO see pummeling however. There are reasons why this is so. It’s not training anymore. It’s fighting. “Real” functional drills comes directly out of sparring. Chi sao comes from someone’s idea of what “should be” . Not what is.

ButterflyPalm wrote

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Chi Sao I believe is useful as a "first-contact" technique, as opposed to a simple block or grabbing an attacking limb.

Elbows away from the body during fighting? That’s going to get someone knocked out or taken down.

In boxing, that is drilled out of practitioners asap. It's called "reaching" or "pawing". That's fundamental no-no.

northstar wrote

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Sticky hands doesn't happen in a fight, but it's principles still apply; sensitivity, sticking on, keeping your self covered and exploiting your opponent's body positioning.

You’re also making one of my own points. I never said the principles didn’t apply. But the distance from which chi-sao is performed is not realistic for fighting. This is why when you see wing chun guys spar (if you ever do), you never see chi-sao and you rarely even see any trapping. You know what you DO often see? You see “bad MMA”.

Here is an example of "bad mma" from some wing chun guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV7O0nJpGbQ

My point was that pummeling will accomplish the same objectives but do so more realistically, by working the actual techniques that you will use in fighting (along with the actual distance in which they are used).

What you wrote in the quote above is the exact same thing that good pummeling will accomplish. The difference is, it does it better that chi sao.

If chi sao worked, I’d still be doing it folks.

I can't comment too much on wing chun chi sao, as I have trained in different Chinese arts and they had a different approach.

It’s all the same for the most part. None if it is what I consider to be functional.

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Basically though, as crazy as it may sound (if you don't believe/understand sensitivity), as long as you have contact with your enemy you have a good chance of knowing what is coming next and controlling someone (if you're good enough).

Not from the that distance bro. It may work if everyone you face fights just like a wing chun guy. But, fights don’t happen like that.

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I'm not that great but basically I can feel:

-from which direction or angle is his next move going to come
-where his balance is
-where I am open
-where is he open; where to hit him or trick him into making an opening
-the most appropriate technique to apply in the situation

Which is all based on an unrealistic distance for what you are trying to accomplish.

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A good level of Chinese martial arts is not block, strike, block, strike. I'm not saying that it doesn't work because it definately does. We just have a different approach to fighting.

Then why is it never seen in MMA? It’s not been seen ONCE in the past 14 years. If it did what you suggest, I believe that some good kung fu guys would have made use of it. But they haven’t. Again, there are reasons why that’s son (and it's not because MMA is a "sport and wing chun is for street" so lets leave that age old excuse out of the debate.)

-John

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/03/07 10:26 AM

Quote by JKogas -

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Maybe it's not bad kung fu, but its definitely bad wrestling.

Interesting. I have never considered ChiSao to be 'wrestling' of any kind. Nor is it strictly striking, IMHO. I believe it is something in between - an isolation excersize to develop "mid-range" sensitivity. I have found it useful against many different types of fighters, especially in stand-up. I do think in the clinch, ChiSao loses it's effectiveness compared to other, more specific clinch-training. But once on the ground, it again can be useful from the high mount, or defending from the guard.

It is a specific range tool. Works sometimes. Others, not.

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/03/07 11:49 AM

It's also a matter of training your 'bridge seeking' skills very hard. This is the most crucial element to WC for combat AND ring effectiveness. I don't understand why it's so understated in so many WC schools. Improper bridging is what got Scott Baker in trouble in the first place in UFC 2 (if we really have to go there

) - dude was asking for the hands, which is something you only do in chi sau.
The clinch does pose an interesting problem - but in a no rules situation, it can be circumvented. You can use cup jarn (elbows), twist the guy's nuts, bite his frickin' ear... clinch range is a bad place to be for both fighters in an unsupervised fight. Remembering that if they're holding you, they're holding themselves can present many options. However, none of these tactics can be utilized in the ring... and i'm going to leave it there before the same old stupid ring vs. street argument kicks in.
Anyway, yes chi sau is a particular range, but a good fighter will know how to get in and out of it and use it really well. Kinda like ground fighting. Only i'm more on board for a style that promotes staying on your feet. That's my preference, mainly because rolling on concrete HURTS and i want to stay out of that position. Yeah, that's bad wrestling, and it's good kung fu. Good kung fu also entails not exchanging punches, not hitting into empty space, not giving the enemy any signals or telegraphing...
it doesn't work out that way some of the time, but training for it raises the success percentage.
And at the end of the day, self defense is about having an advantage, right? That said, is ANY style really useless then? Let's face it - any 'real' fight any of us will ever engage in will most likely NOT be with a fellow MA student.

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/03/07 03:08 PM

John,

it is possible to control the mass from the point of contact. we do it all the time. (the caveat is, of course, there are varying levels of ability and only a few of us have developed any decent level)

the wrestlers i've played with so far couldn't hold their own against me when it came to just pummeling. they just don't understand about controlling the mass the same way.

there are examples of what i would call application of spinning and sticky hand skill that i've seen in mma too. i'll have to look for some clips.

(hell, anytime you slip or parry a punch i call that real time application of spinning/sticky hand)

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/03/07 07:18 PM

"Here is an example of "bad mma" from some wing chun guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV7O0nJpGbQ
"

I just watched this finally - good friggin' grief! My sifu would sling my a$$ for fighting this way. This is bad for ANY style - there isn't even a hint of basic principle there. Just two apes slugging away at it.

Guys please, we can drudge examples of crappy fighting in any system off GooTube till we're cut and pasting ourselves into a carpal tunnel state. Lame is lame, so don't pin this kind of crap on WC, or any other style.

Anyway, if you want to get on the 'Tube and see some WC applied in MMA that WORKS (blended with ground fighting of course), search for Alan Orr, Aaron Baum, the Iron Wolves Fighting Team or Chu Sao Lei Wing chun. The guys who train WC and can fight like the best are out there. The difference? They train out of chi sau more than in. It's what any WC student should do after getting chi sau down. Now, that's not to say I don't love a good chi sau - the beauty is i'll be able to do it till the day I die, old and frail... can't say that for sparring

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/03/07 10:25 PM

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it is possible to control the mass from the point of contact. we do it all the time. (the caveat is, of course, there are varying levels of ability and only a few of us have developed any decent level)

Of course. I wish only to meet such folks. Perhaps I can learn from them. Still waiting after all these years….

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the wrestlers i've played with so far couldn't hold their own against me when it came to just pummeling. they just don't understand about controlling the mass the same way.

Then you have something to teach the freestyle and Greco guys. We only thought we knew controlling mass.

-John

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 01:02 AM

you know i should add, that when it comes to actual application, i'm not gonna stick to you, but i should be making you feel like you want to stick to me, if that makes any sense.

in other words you should move beyond the need to stick to your opponent.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 06:46 AM

Right.

Man I just have to ask where it is that you guys have been hiding? I mean, you guys that are "really" good with chi-sao. To think that I was doing it wrong all those years... Just my luck that I was never introduced to the top notch folks.

Do you know what this could do for someone's CLINCH game???

I wonder why it is that so many top level clinch guys (like the Couture's of the world) aren't already doing this?? I mean it isn't like no one is aware of chi-sao, ya know? It's not a big secret.

You're not far from Vegas I think. You should get down to Legends and show them what they've been missing.

Makes you wonder. I sure would like to train with you but you're all the way in Phoenix.

Guess I'll have to stay with what I know. Just my luck.

MattJ:

It's not that I'm saying that chi-sao IS "wrestling" but as it's not exactly striking, I lump it into the grappling category. It's my opinion that all things can be reduced to some form of hitting or some form of grappling. Again, just my opinions and definitions of terms.

And for the record (as if it wasn't obvious enough), I still don't buy into chi-sao or any other such hippie energy drills. They may have a marginal use, but as I've mentioned, I've found other things that work infinitely better.

To all
Got a good chi-sao game? Let me know if you're in or near my area. Don't be shy. I want to meet you and train.

Thanks!

-John

Posted by: crablord

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 09:56 AM

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To all
Got a good chi-sao game? Let me know if you're in or near my area. Don't be shy. I want to meet you and train.

Thanks!

lmfao.

thread won

Posted by: donchisau

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 01:02 PM

Shikata watching the elbows and knees is a precontact method. I have never heard anyone extoll watching them when in contact. you may try to control them when in contact but not watch them. I asked if you were phils student because I am from Chicago and am familier with all the different wing chun teachers there and what they teach. knowing your teacher would make it easier to understand your pov.

John I have no idea where you are I am in the Albuquerque NM area I would be more than happy to work out with you if you are anywhere nearby. I do not fully understand your comments about chi sau. There are several different chi sau platforms for example what has been called spinning hands in wing chun is the huen sau platform although it is done tighter i.e. smaller circles. There is rising and sinking platform. Oi and ngoi platform.Longer distance wrist to wrist and very short distance shoulder chi sao as well and then there is the most common platform poon sau rolling that you see on youtube etc. When you talk about elbow distance the standard is 1 to 1.5 fist lenghts away are you advocating elbow right next to the body? I have trained with professional boxers and some very good wrestlers but I havent seen anyone the advocates keeping the elbows right next to the body. I would like to see a video of this is you can refer me to one. Chi sau trains attributes but it not fighting so I dont understand about someone having a good chi sau game. Being good at chi sau has very little bearing on how well one fights. There are many that play chi sau games infact there are even some chi sau attacks that while they may work in chi sau might cost you your teeth in a fight.
As for wrestling you may find the same attributes trained in chi sau are already trained in wrestling after all it is all about energy usage. Not some hippie thing but for example when someone pulls your arm how do you respond that is a response to energy. If you are pushed how do you respond? That is what chi sau is trying to teach how to respond to different types of energy or to stay non hippie how to respond to different types of attacks both grappling and punching.

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 02:10 PM

Don - I learned to watch the elbows in MMA and boxing. Elbow movement gives away the intent of the rest of the arm. This is not to say that I actually STARE straight at an opponent's elbows - I use my periferral vision, that 'seeing through' POV that allows me to pick up on movement. Basically, if you're watching the hands, it will be to late by the time one hits you - the elbow moves first, you see. And yes, this practice IS condoned at my WC school (which I choose not to openly pinpoint on the internet, so if you want to discuss who/where and when I train please PM me). I know more or less what I'm talking about. I have a good centerline and am quick and wiley when it comes to engaging and disengaging (either to choi sau position in chi sau, or out of range in sparring).

Kogas - I respect your opinions and expertise, despite how hard headed they are. But I think you've out done yourself this time. Let me review the facts - you're 42, have been training for 30 years and have tried every art under the sun... why should I except you as an expert on ANYTHING then? Even in 30 years, I don't think most MA'ists can truthfully say they've mastered more than one or two arts. Sounds to me like you never sank your teeth into what you claim to know everything about. I could be wrong, but who's to say given that internet chatter has even less merit than sh1t talking. And name calling - dude, I hope that was just a moment of frustration and not you showing your real stripes. What were you implying? That if a martial artist doesn't shave his head and wear Tapout(c) shorts that he's a hippie? Hippie carries a negative conotation for me, and I think that pinning it on WC guys because they supposedly don't work it as hard as you is a misguided and sheltered opinion. I've got my grievances with wrestling, mate, but I keep them to myself because i'm damn aware that my limited experience with it does not make my opinions of it the truth.
Sorry bro, I would just expect more from you.

And this is officially now a derailed thread.

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 04:39 PM

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Right.

Man I just have to ask where it is that you guys have been hiding?

malaysia

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Just my luck that I was never introduced to the top notch folks.

well, you've never met my Sifu.

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You're not far from Vegas I think. You should get down to Legends and show them what they've been missing.

come on john. be reasonable. that's like saying "i know you are but what am i?".

i qualified my statement by saying "the guys i've played with so far". that's guys about my age, who are either high school coaches now, or maybe were division one guys when they wrestled regularly. and i also was careful to say " just pummeling".

if i use the same logic on you, i could say "why don't you show me how good your greco/roman game is by seeing what you can do against ernesto hoost, and if you get ktfo, then greco/roman is no good."

i don't claim to be at that level just yet. i'll be entering my first full contact fight this july, and then from there i plan to pursue it as far as i can take it. at 31 i don't know how far that will be.

if i can find anyone with open mat nights in my area, you can bet i'll be down there playing my game against the bjj guys and anyone else who'll play with me, so i can get better.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 06:32 PM

Donchisau wrote:

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When you talk about elbow distance the standard is 1 to 1.5 fist lenghts away are you advocating elbow right next to the body? I have trained with professional boxers and some very good wrestlers but I havent seen anyone the advocates keeping the elbows right next to the body.

Greco-Roman wrestling in particular teaches elbows in tight to the body. Thus is the need for hand fighting. You’re taught never to reach and to move your body in close to your opponent. This is practically chest to chest. That is fundamental.

Freestyle’s structure is lower and you can reach a bit more. However, elbows in is still a fundamental rule of solid structure.

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I would like to see a video of this is you can refer me to one. Chi sau trains attributes but it not fighting so I dont understand about someone having a good chi sau game.

Watch any of the myriad of chi-sao “sparring” sessions that you see all over youtube. Or, one of those linked to on this very thread. That’s what I mean by chi-sao “game“. Excuse my vernacular.

I realize that chi-sao develops attributes. But isn’t it ironic or, perhaps a misspeak that you said that chi-sao trains attributes but not fighting? Am I reading that correctly?

Pummeling teaches attributes and fighting. That’s among the points I’ve been making.

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Being good at chi sau has very little bearing on how well one fights. There are many that play chi sau games infact there are even some chi sau attacks that while they may work in chi sau might cost you your teeth in a fight.

I would agree with you here.

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As for wrestling you may find the same attributes trained in chi sau are already trained in wrestling after all it is all about energy usage.

I understand that completely and was a point I was making in reference to pummeling. I’m simply stating my opinion that the pummeling drills used in wrestling are more functional / practical for fighting than chi-sao. That’s it.

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Not some hippie thing but for example when someone pulls your arm how do you respond that is a response to energy. If you are pushed how do you respond? That is what chi sau is trying to teach how to respond to different types of energy or to stay non hippie how to respond to different types of attacks both grappling and punching.

I’ve had experience with chi-sao so I understand where you’re coming from. It’s not like I’m just taking something that I know nothing about and slamming it because I’ve got nothing else to do. I just disagree with the idea that chi-sao can develop anyone’s attributes for fighting in the way that pummeling can. People get bent out of shape because I’m stating my opinions.

I’m in North Carolina by the way. Thanks.

ShikataGaNai wrote

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Kogas - I respect your opinions and expertise, despite how hard headed they are.

Listen man, what’s being hard headed about stating your observations and experience? I’m simply stating those things. I’m also open minded enough to entertain others points of view. NOT open minded to the point where my brain falls out.

I’m also open and friendly enough to train with anyone so that they can teach me and possibly show me the error of my ways. That’s how I’ve learned a LOT of things.

Remember, I’m just into what’s functional and proven. If it works, why on EARTH would I be against it, right? Follow the logic? I’d still be practicing chi-sao if I thought it was worth doing. I don’t. I’m not alone.

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But I think you've out done yourself this time. Let me review the facts - you're 42, have been training for 30 years and have tried every art under the sun...

Don’t misquote me bro. I never said I have tried every art under the sun. What was it exactly that I said again?? Re-read what I wrote.

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why should I except you as an expert on ANYTHING then?

You shouldn’t. I never asked you to.

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Even in 30 years, I don't think most MA'ists can truthfully say they've mastered more than one or two arts.

Never said that either. Either I really got you bent out of shape with what I’ve written, or you’re deliberately trying to misquote me. Lets not do that please.

What I basically meant was that no one is going to show me another functional move that I’ve not seen (in some form) before and that I’ve experienced being hit, kicked and grappled in just about every way that a person can be.

Now, did you see anything wrong with that? Perhaps I can try and clarify that some more if you're still having problems with what I'm saying here.

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Sounds to me like you never sank your teeth into what you claim to know everything about.

Perhaps if you actually had correctly read or interpreted what I actually said and was meaning, you’d have a different opinion. But you and everyone else are welcome to your opinion nonetheless.

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I could be wrong, but who's to say given that internet chatter has even less merit than sh1t talking. And name calling - dude, I hope that was just a moment of frustration and not you showing your real stripes.

Damn bro, you’re blowing my comment about hippies way out of proportion. It was an off the cuff remark that you’re blowing WAY the f*ck out. And no, I’m not frustrated at all. But it’s clear to see that YOU are. Trying to clarify remarks on the internet takes way more time than I’m willing to give so try and understand.

You must be a hippie right? Apparently I’ve stuck a nerve (imagine that, lol?!). I’ve got nothing against hippies. But would you categorize yourself to begin with?

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What were you implying? That if a martial artist doesn't shave his head and wear Tapout(c) shorts that he's a hippie?

No, I was implying that people who believe in chi, chakras, chi-energy drills and other such things are often hippies. I believe those things to be bull$hit. Thus, I spoke of hippy bull$hit.

Apparently you don't buy into hippie bull$hit either (if I'm not misreading you that is. That's always possible ya know

)

Now if you’re just talking about body mechanics, weight transference and balance, that’s another story. But as you know, there are a thundering herd of folks out there who believe in magic and faeries. THAT is what I’m talking about.

If that’s you or NOT you, you don’t have the right to not be offended.

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Hippie carries a negative conotation for me, and I think that pinning it on WC guys because they supposedly don't work it as hard as you is a misguided and sheltered opinion.

Those are your issues man. Don’t project your “stuff” onto others, ok? You’re blowing things out of proportion because of a knee-jerk reaction to what I’ve said.

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I've got my grievances with wrestling, mate, but I keep them to myself because i'm damn aware that my limited experience with it does not make my opinions of it the truth.
Sorry bro, I would just expect more from you.

With your misconceptions, it’s a wonder why you don’t automatically think less of damn near anyone bro.

How about re-reading and thinking a little deeper into what’s been said, realizing that people say sh*t off the cuff, and trying not to be hypocritical, K? I mean, I’m quite sure you’re perfect, right?

ashe-higgs wrote

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Malaysia

Cool. That would explain a lot.

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well, you've never met my Sifu.

Right. Would I know him from anywhere? Where is he from? What’s his background?

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come on john. be reasonable. that's like saying "i know you are but what am i?".

It was a bad joke really, but it’s not that unreasonable. One or several of you might learn something.

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i qualified my statement by saying "the guys i've played with so far". that's guys about my age, who are either high school coaches now, or maybe were division one guys when they wrestled regularly. and i also was careful to say " just pummeling".

Fair enough.

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if i use the same logic on you, i could say "why don't you show me how good your greco/roman game is by seeing what you can do against ernesto hoost, and if you get ktfo, then greco/roman is no good."

Point taken. I misread what you had written.

It would be more accurate to watch a couple of guys, peers of sorts (same age, height, weight, experience) fight. One guy does chi-sao and the other guy wrestles in the clinch. Then we watch THEM fight each other. That would be more telling.

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i don't claim to be at that level just yet. i'll be entering my first full contact fight this july, and then from there i plan to pursue it as far as i can take it. at 31 i don't know how far that will be.

if i can find anyone with open mat nights in my area, you can bet i'll be down there playing my game against the bjj guys and anyone else who'll play with me, so i can get better.

That’s a great attitude bro. You most certainly WILL improve with that frame of mind. I’m no different.

-John

PS: Ain't this FUN folks??! Just like old times.....

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 08:35 PM

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 09:27 PM

Pretty much

-John

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/04/07 09:55 PM

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Right. Would I know him from anywhere? Where is he from? What’s his background?

i hate to keep tooting this horn, but since you ask...

my Sifu was born and raised in the Chinese community of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He learned his father's art from the time he was about 12 or so, and competed in many full contact fights, including against thai and burmese boxers in open competitions. In 1978 he and his cousin Jimmy were the Selengore State full contact champions in the heavyweight division. (My Sifu was super heavyweight and Jimmy was light heavy) My Sifu holds (or held) the record for having his longest fight that year last a mere 40 seconds.
Jimmy also had an open challenge printed in the Chinese language newspapers for years. in short, they're both bad assed muther f*cker$.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/05/07 07:12 AM

I love guys like that. They always make the best folks to train with. Where's he at now? In the States?

Again, I'm not into "challenge matches" but I do enjoy training. If he's ever in my neck of the woods and I have some time, I may check it out. I'm NOT into driving half way across the state however to train with someone who is into something completely outside of my training philosophy. That's just ridiculous. I mean, good training is one thing but going out of my way to prove a point is a little absurd. But who knows.

Remember, my posts here represent just MY experiences. Have your OWN. I would never suggest otherwise.

-John

Posted by: donchisau

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/05/07 01:58 PM

John- I understand where you are coming from now all is good. No one should argue about opinions. I just look at things from a position that wing chun has alot more in it than is usually seen or taught so I feel I need to stand up for wing chun a bit. For example most people have never seen what in known as body chi sao or shoulder chi sau because Yip Man didnt teach it and most wing chun comes via Yip Man. These chi sau platforms teach the wing chun throws and sweeps and how to defend against throws and sweeps including how to use your body to defend againt close body throws. Wing chun also teaches many kneeling attacks and includes leg picks. This is one way you can tell how well someone knows wing chun. If they dont move from high to low and from very close body to outside if their body is locked and tight vs loose and flexible. Most wing chun you see is of the locked and tight variety.

To get back on track in the old days we used to train blindfolded chi sau chi gerk and if we lost contact we had to establish the bridge while blindfolded usually via a punch or a kick. We did have our share of blood and broken bones but you learned how to cover at all times and how to react to the slightest sensation. If anyone ever runs into some of the old timers that trained this you will see some extremly fast and loose, meaning no tension at all, fighters. Today risk of lawsuits has stopped most of this type of training I think.

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/05/07 05:22 PM

Dang, Don - that's really interesting stuff. I see your point about the blindfold now. Just didn't think anyone was crazy enough to take it that far anymore!
What WC styles utilize the kneeling attacks, leg picks and throws? I have also heard that WC has chin na, which is also missing from Ip Man's teachings.

Posted by: donchisau

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/05/07 08:05 PM

Shikata, WC uses chin na or some say kum na. My last teacher taught me his families wing chun that decends from Leung Jans student Chan Kwai,called Lo Kwai as well. He taught me the kneelong attacks etc but Yip Man taught the kneeling horse to a couple of his early students as well. It also appears in other wing chun families like YKS. I cant say how deep or involved they get into the kneeling attacks leg and ankle picks etc. I am including a link to a Ku Lo wing chun youtube vid. At about 2 minutes into the vid you will see some wrist locks and throws demo'd its not much but its the only vid of wing chun throwing I have seen in public. Ku Lo wing chun is the version of wing chun Leung Jan taught just before his death,well 3 to 4 years before he died in his home village. This wing chun style doesnt have the 3 forms but is taught as san sik or seperate techniques. The begining of the vid shows some of these done in a linked pattern.

I asked if you were a student of Phil Nearings because this type of blindfolded chi sau that was trained there in the late 80s and early 90s.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvY5yV6vgs

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/06/07 01:59 AM

John,

he lives in new york but travels extensively to give wrkshops both abroad and domestically.

we have a satellite group in durham, NC. the guys there are very new and so it wouldn't be worth your time to go check them out, but my Sifu will be back in september for another workshop.

Posted by: staticman

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/09/07 03:32 AM

thought i'd add my two penn'eth for what its worth.
interesting and enjoyable forum-some of you guys get really het up-i think some of this shows how diverse wc really is as a ma

ashe_higgs: i fully agree with what you and some other posters (donchisau) have said about chi sau.
thanks for putting the vid on for us to see. i may be misjudging as difficult to determine exactly so no disrespect intended but my thoughts on it are:
-we would not train wc/chi sau like this as your arms seem too wide and far apart and away from centre line- if someone was taking me that wide i would immediately change inside to regain centre and if they didn't respond try to strike through; related to this is that your energy is not obviously going forward? i've not heard the term spinning so cannot comment, can you describe. good luck in the fights, keep us posted on your progress

Jkogas: i find alot of your posts very interesting and useful and fully accept that you have found styles/techniques that suit you but don't understand your downer on wc and chi sau. in my very humble opinion wc is about closing the distance and moving in to short punching and then elbow/knee striking (ieclinch) range. chi sau is very relevent to this as it trains this progression. and as stated above energy is going forward and elbows are always in to protect centre line. admiittedly a skilled grappler/wrestler may prevent this and counter successfully, but likewise a skilled wc attack could lay a grappler out with an elbow strike before he can counter- as ever this depends on the skills of the fighter not the style per se. i don't know what pummelling is so cannot coment, any descriptions.

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/09/07 03:05 PM

static,

i liq chuan has it's own take on things. our sticky hand is not the same as WC sticky hand.

spinning hands is similar to what bagua calls rou shou.

none of the video clips i posted actually show any of our sticky hand, just variations on spinning.

ILC doesn't really focus on the center line, the center of mass is our emphasis, also we don't focus on just forward movement, but being able to apply force in any direction.

too much more i can't get into because it would require us to be able to touch so you could feel what i'm talking about.

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/09/07 07:56 PM

Do you guys do spinning hnds blindfolded?

BTW, my sihing recently made his triumphant return from ICU. He came back mopping the floor with other dudes, with his eyes closed!

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/10/07 02:03 AM

ICU, intensive care unit?

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/10/07 04:02 PM

john,

here's a clip with a fighter who demonstrates excellent real time sticky hand skills (jorge, the smaller fighter)

ray v. jorge

i should note that he only controls his oppenets hands and not his mass. what we would call "fend".

we have four levels in our training, "flow", "fend", "control" and "jam and freeze".

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/10/07 11:33 PM

For some reason I couldn't view it. Try re-linking to it.

-John

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/11/07 10:19 AM

Yes, that ICU - sorry.

I couldn't see the vid either. Very curious though!

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/11/07 05:01 PM

Edited for porn links.

My apologies to the young horndogs.

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/12/07 12:33 AM

Wow, that was good stuff! Especially for kimbo fights.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/12/07 07:05 AM

Haven't seen it yet but does Jorge train chi-sao?

Ok, I saw it and what I saw was nothing but some relatively decent boxing with a little muay Thai influence coming on the knees and the neck clinch.

So now boxers are chi-sao practitioners? Is that your stance? I'm just trying to see how you spin around into your favor with chi-sao.

I mean, DAMN! lol

Even if you were, it still doesn't reinforce the pro chi-sao argument nor does it take away from my original point - which is, there are more effective ways of training the close range than chi-sao.

-John

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/12/07 08:14 AM

Quote:

Edited for porn links.

My apologies to the young horndogs.

Very nice Ashe. Jorge's use of chi-sao/boxing is very similar to mine. Saw a few bong-sau's, and even some elbow checking, like I learned in AKK.

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/12/07 12:55 PM

What Jorge was doing wasn't chi sau, I think we all know that (unless someone is in serious denial), but there were skills present that chi sau is designed to cultivate. He DID successfully bong lap his opponent (the equivalent of pulling off an armbar in a real situation IMO - not easy), he DID use the same type of footwork that WC guys who fight in MMA comps use (Alan Orr, Aaron Baum) and he DID keep his center line closed off very effectively.

Yes, it does look like excellent boxing. ANY style (sans grappling) will look that way when two guys consciously square off against each other without the desire to actually kill the opponent off.

I guess there's no way to really explain the methodology behind a kung fu training regimen (or alot of FMA). It either works for you or it doesn't and obviously it doesn't work for you. However, I can't help but wonder if you were taught, like so many unfortunately, that the rigid drilling of forms and 'perfect' techniques is not what really happens when the s#1t goes down. You perfect the techniques in forms, apply them to variable situations in chi sau and learn to adjust and improvise with them in sparring.

I don't know or understand how this message is lost on so many wing chun people, and I agree that alot of what is taught is useless. But even if you don't use your whole repartoire of chi sau attacks in 'reality', it is a fun and interesting format to train in (for me) and it has helped immensely to increase my spatial awareness and reflexes.

'More effective' = more effective for some.

Posted by: futsaowingchun

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/21/07 06:51 PM

I think Blind fold Chi sao has its merits.For one it relies totally on your sensitivity.Which you can develope to a high degree.Relying on your eyes alone is much slower and can easly be fooled.But your sence of touch can not be fooled.When your very close to your opponent its much better to rely on feeling then on what the eyes tell you.At a distance of course you have no choice,but when you getinto close range its to your advantage to rely in your sensitivey.If your other opponent does not have this training it will be very hard for him to hit you.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/21/07 09:59 PM

Quote:

What Jorge was doing wasn't chi sau, I think we all know that (unless someone is in serious denial), but there were skills present that chi sau is designed to cultivate.

Right there is a point that I have been harping on. In my opinion, the skills the chi-sao is designed to develop are developed better by doing basic boxing and wrestling. That’s all I’ve been saying.

I’d be willing to bet that “Jorge” here doesn’t do any chi-sao training.

Quote:

He DID successfully bong lap his opponent (the equivalent of pulling off an armbar in a real situation IMO - not easy), he DID use the same type of footwork that WC guys who fight in MMA comps use (Alan Orr, Aaron Baum) and he DID keep his center line closed off very effectively.

I’ve been looking for the bong-lop and haven’t seen it anywhere. My guess is it wasn’t even intentional. Things like that from guys like this usually aren’t. The footwork and closed off center line are nothing unique to wing chun either. Did that even look like wing chun to you guys or are you reaching a bit here?

Quote:

Yes, it does look like excellent boxing. ANY style (sans grappling) will look that way when two guys consciously square off against each other without the desire to actually kill the opponent off.

HTF does desire to kill change the structure here? Ever killed anyone with the empty hand?

Quote:

I guess there's no way to really explain the methodology behind a kung fu training regimen (or alot of FMA). It either works for you or it doesn't and obviously it doesn't work for you. However, I can't help but wonder if you were taught, like so many unfortunately, that the rigid drilling of forms and 'perfect' techniques is not what really happens when the s#1t goes down. You perfect the techniques in forms, apply them to variable situations in chi sau and learn to adjust and improvise with them in sparring.

Trust me. I understand completely about how the drilling of forms and perfect techniques doesn’t “come out” in real fights. The problem with a lot of chi sao and hubud practice are the bad habits that get ingrained deeply.

And it’s always that people are either “taught wrong” (not implying that, that is what you were saying) or that the “masters” can pull stuff like that off easily.

I have yet to see these masters do anything but talk about these things on internet forums.

Quote:

I don't know or understand how this message is lost on so many wing chun people, and I agree that alot of what is taught is useless. But even if you don't use your whole repartoire of chi sau attacks in 'reality', it is a fun and interesting format to train in (for me) and it has helped immensely to increase my spatial awareness and reflexes.

All that matters is what YOU gain from training. But I would tell all of you to train with good wrestlers whenever you get the chance. You’ll feel a difference and well as better see what I’m trying to impart here. Don’t take my word for anything.

Quote:

'More effective' = more effective for some.

Sure, everything is relative. Not everyone has been exposed to high level wrestling. Not everyone has had access to it. Its tough as well. Very hard, tough training with HUGE demands on conditioning. Its pretty easy to kick back, put the blind fold on, do some chi-sao and “feel the energy”. Until you get tossed on your bean once or twice, that is. Thats when that sort of stuff gets dropped faster than a dress on prom night.

-John

Posted by: futsaowingchun

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/22/07 10:59 AM

I think that the key..Being exposed and training with high level guys.You can't train in the comfort zone.That will take you a life time to get anywhere.

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/25/07 04:12 AM

here john, check this out!

if you don't like this, then there's no hope for you!

make sure to watch it to the end, since there's some stuff at the begining and some at the end with stuff in between that won't interest you.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/25/07 07:29 AM

Yep, theres no hope for me.

I have to admit that I didn't watch ALL of it. I felt my time would be wasted by doing so this morning. Perhaps later. Though I doubt my opinion will change much.

No, I didn't care much for it. Still way to much of a demo for me.

Sorry. Just the way I feel.

-John

Posted by: futsaowingchun

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/25/07 03:02 PM

I met this guy many years ago.He used to teach at a Buddhist temple in up sate NY. I did some chi sao with him which I think he called Spinning hands.The sifu was pretty good.the students I did not think very much of at the time.I did not see anyone thrown around like on the demo als he was not able to do that with me anyway.

Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/25/07 03:12 PM

Quote:

he was not able to do that with me anyway.

can you elaborate?

Posted by: futsaowingchun

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/26/07 02:27 PM

sure...I ment when the sifu was training spinning hands with his students it did nnot look like what I saw on the clip.There was no throwing anyone around like I saw on the U-tube clip.

Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Blindfolded chi sau - 06/27/07 02:24 AM

Quote:

I have yet to see these masters do anything but talk about these things on internet forums.

I'll completely agree to that.

Blindfolded chi sau