Wing Chun SD
I haven't been on these forums much in a while - good to see the place is still the best MA discussion board around!
I got a question for the chunners, ex-chunners and would be chunners here (and anyone with chun training knowledge).
How much of your curriculum covers (or covered) Wing Chun SD?
One of the major complaints I hear from haters of the system is that there isn't enough 'street' applicable training involved in their classes. This is of course only second to the 'not enough/any full contact' complaint, which my school thankfully does NOT lack in.
The reason I ask is because I really believe the next generation of WC instructors has great potential to step up and make the art much more credible again. I think if this bridge could be built, and the rigid adherence to abstract 'tradition' could be somewhat dissolved, WC would find itself in a much more positive position within the modern martial arts community.
I love this art, and these things really matter to me.
Also, if you don't get much SD in your training, would you benefit from having more? Do you think it would be a welcome addition to chi sao and sparring?
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:03 PM
Im an ex Wing Chunner, as you call it. My good friend was taught by William Cheung, and I was taught by my friend. His WC was very good and very street applicable. The only real gripe that I had with it was lack of footwork.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:09 PM
Ah, that's another point of major complaint with most people. This I really don't understand - the footwork we learn at my school is very simple, yet dynamic and anything BUT static which most people think it is. After I got the hang of it, I liked it more than boxing footwork - it seems more like what FMA types do, which I had a couple years of as well.
I assume you would practice the SD aspects outside of the chi sao context?
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:14 PM
I never studied any part of WC beyond the ChiSao aspect. However, I have some fairly "live" training in that, and found it very useful for learning sensitivity for close range striking.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:16 PM
You assume correctly. As for the footwork, it was basically the motto that a WC never moves backwards, he either moves forward, either straight or by angle, or he holds his ground. Many times I found myself flat footed and planted, and thats not something I enjoy. I also felt like I was often waiting on the opponent. I did enjoy my wing Chun though, and it was through WC that I later came across JKD.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:25 PM
Quote:
Many times I found myself flat footed and planted, and thats not something I enjoy. I also felt like I was often waiting on the opponent. I did enjoy my wing Chun though, and it was through WC that I later came across JKD.
Interesting - I've now gone FROM JKD to WC. Guess I felt like I needed to declare a major (plus, I do like some of the more esoteric/energistic aspects of it) 
I hear you on the 'waiting for the opponent' thing though. My sifu actually discourages this. If he sees two people holding a position for too long in chi sao, he'll bark "will one of you just initiate a bloody attack already?!"
It's funny, because the straight punch can be very fast and it seems very well suited to surprising an opponent.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:33 PM
It definately has a more traditional flavor than JKD. When I still practiced WC, I dint want to be the first to attack and if i did it was often the straight, or a kick, because of the lack of movement on the part of the opponent.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:35 PM
Did you ever try it out on another style? Full contact?
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:41 PM
Sure. Ive always tried to have a variety of Martial Artists around me that I train with. One ting I noticed about it in particular was that it was hard to gain ground against a kick heavy system like TKD or Muay Thai. Once inside of kicking range it became easier to deal with the opponents. From inside it was very effective for me. From just beyond punch range, it still served well for me but from kicking range it seemed to come apart and I would be forced to resort to non WC tactics. But, in combat, you arent limited by style so I guess it wouldnt be much of a problem.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 04:55 PM
I haven't found a solid answer to hook punches in WC, that's my biggest complaint. They seem to easily go around bil sao and bong sao/kwun sao don't position quite right. Since the hook is a well known attack in the kingdom of Streetthuggia, are there any techniques or methods that effectively prevent the hook from connecting?
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/08/07 05:10 PM
It depends on your relation to the opponent. If he has to reach to get the hook try a quick backstep and pak sao. If you are inside, try the straight blast or if its too late, curl the shoulder upwards to absorb it.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/09/07 06:18 AM
If you're using Bil Sao to deal with hook punches and you feel like they're still getting around, the answer probably lies in the hips. Try changing the angle/facing of your hips and see what happens.
I used to do Wing Chun. That's been 12 years ago. One thing I don't like about it is how the elbows tend to move away from the body. I don't care WHAT art you study, your elbows moving away from your body is never a good thing.
Bong Sao in wing chun is one small example. The kali hubud stuff has the arms and elbows moving away. That's ALL bad stuff and should be thrown out of your arsenals.
-John
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/09/07 10:01 AM
Hmm, agreed and disagreed. As much as I hate to quote Ip Man, he did say "the bong sao never forms", and that's pretty much an integral point most WC people miss - if used as a transition, bong can be very effective. Just don't stick it. I've actually used bong/lap chop somewhat effectively from a dominated position in the mount (admittedly against mediocre grapplers) Positioning of the rear guard hand is paramount with the bong as well. Between the sternum and forearm and halfway between the hand and elbow.
I don't know, I've used it effectively in a few situations and am quite happy with it. Another thing bong does fantastically - elbows. In fact, that's about the only SD application of it IMO. Everybody these days thinks they can flatten anyone out with an elbow... uh-uh sunshine
Posted by: Tezza
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/09/07 12:15 PM
Hi ShikataGaNai long time no speak.
Well from my experience we do a lot of SD training as you put it. I am of the WT organisation. Grandmaster K.Kernspect brought in something called Blitz Defence, which is basically a modern way of applying wingtsun movements to be used in a modern street conflict if you like.
If you can get hold of it try getting a book called Blitz Defence, it covers basic moves and shows how techniques can be used.
In blitz defence we use various scenarios like particular orthodox stances etc. Here are some of the basic techniques used in blitz defence.
http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/artikel.php?id=972&PHPSESSID=27e31cf8312fb317c2522244a4dad7aaHope this helps mate.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/09/07 12:51 PM
Good hearing from you again, Tez.
Those videos were very cool - the 'stick defense' reminded me a lot of kali. I think the only difference I would prefer in executing it though would be to bil first, lop second, instead of going for a grab like the guy did.
Do you guys drill these at your school?
Posted by: Tezza
Re: Wing Chun SD - 02/09/07 01:00 PM
Yeah we do its part of our curriculum. To be honest I have used a few in real situations and they work fine for me.
The great thing about it in class though is once you do the basic entry you can do what you like and what feels natural and all of it is basic wingtsun movements/techniques and they work very well.