Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form

Posted by: HiddenPalm

Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 04:06 PM

[NOTE: This thread is being reposted and "rewritten" here because it really angered the administration at the EmptyFlower forums to the point where I got banned where I could no longer update the original video list being updated by the EmptyFlower community in the thread. Originally it was posted as a contest, but too many got confused and got all competative on an internet forum (emptyflower). This is not about whose style is better, what system is better. This is about real people who love real Xing Yi and their thoughts posted here through contrasting and comparing of all the videos of the "Xing Yi 5 Elements Linking Form". That is all, no beef, no arguments, no dissing each other. Just pick your two favorites and post why. Contribute, only if you have something to contribute. Why am I doing this? I fell in love with this form, and I'm trying to find the perfect one so I can practice it for the rest of my life - I'm sure many others will be helped also. This thread is very, very specific to the 5 Elements Linking Form - not other drills or accusations of fake training or anything negative! Let's keep this thread simple and clean. I don't want to get kicked out of here also.]


Video Contrast and Compare Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form


1. Which one of the videos do you think has the more complete form in terms of being able to execute all of the elements and their jing and combat practicality in the best ways possible for one's own practice regimen? For example some forms are really short and even lack some of the 5 Elements so when you drill the form you get less chances to execute techniques and jing power in practice. Some are longer and more practical for combat situations with all of the Elements being done forward and backward. The opinion and choice will be yours and vary based on what people know. In short, no one is absolutely right on this one.

2. Which one is the best manifestation of the spirit of Xing Yi in your opinion?

Here are the list of videos, please take your time with each one by using the pause button often and taking the time to view all of them. If you know of another that belongs here, please post them. Enjoy!

Shanxi Xing Yi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oYu0797puA

Fu Zhongwen's student
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRaBAvTKjNQ

Chang Dong Sheng (The Shuai Chiao King)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgPzk85BYIg

Li Tai Liang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poDziU3mG_4

Sun Jian Yun (Sun Lu Tang's daughter) (Incomplete but if you know this form you dont need to see anymore)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWxt7iukN_g

Hung I-Hsiang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DVHPeYYXmY

Sifu Rudy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqpJK7tx9WA

An unknown woman (she starts off with the 5 elements)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlvq6_qLy48

Unknown man in red
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsNf8zQ0xqA

Unknown man from training VCD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHTsUKLi4gE

Unknown man doing what he calls "Attack Retreat 5 Elements Linked"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-elVjq2A1fg

Wang Shu Jin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVg6De9Rk0Q

Some guy named Chris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnGlnTqS5rU

Unknown Chinese dude (also does BaGua)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm11otWL7HM

Wai Lun Choi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJ2jkYfFFA
Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 06:04 PM

dude, you're every where?

what is the story?

by the way, "some guy named chris" is the admin OF THIS FORUM!

besides, you can never learn "the perfect form" from a video. you have to learn it from someone, because they have to feed you the right feel through touch.
Posted by: HiddenPalm

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 07:40 PM

Some guy named Chris is really the moderator? Thats cool. So far, in emptyflower ... the only video that got voted on was Chris, lol.

I agree with you about being taught and not being able to learn the perfect form from youtube. In fact I agree with everyone who thinks learning from a video is stupid. But everyone is under different circumstances and have different training histories. And we can still observe, anylyze, and talk about things. We can ... I have seen people share ideas before. I have seen this! I swear to God, I have seen people share ideas. You must believe me.

Every one wants to be the "nay sayer" or the "no its not done that way". Yes ... of course you are right! I agree, and so does every one who is serious about Xing Yi.

But back to the subject at hand - In reality the first question is just asking which form presented in these videos has the most opportunities to practice and drill jing, compression, retreat, etc. It is not asking what are better ways of training, or what system is better, or anything of the sorts.

Its work! ... if folks dont want to invest time into it, that is fine. But as of now, this post is in mutltiple forums and not a single person has given there Opinion on any video, which is all I ask. Every one has argued against this and preached how Xing Yi should be trained as if I would had disagreed.

People ... just give your opinion. Your opinion counts! lol

If I can make it any easier ... I would. Ok I can ...

Pick your favorite video. ...
Posted by: jamesjj

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 07:40 PM

I wouldn't recommend watching these videos when you're tired. But honestly, I'm not even sure what you want here? Critique of their forms? Criticize the art? I dunno maybe it's just too close to nap time.
Posted by: jamesjj

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 07:42 PM

Okay that was weird lol we posted at the same time. Okay my fave was the one with the orange shirt. I didn't watch them all ^_^
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 10:09 PM

He isnt just a Moderator, he owns the entire site. His name is Christopher Caile. He is quiet an accomplished martial artist and individual.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 10:36 PM

Quote:

He isnt just a Moderator, he owns the entire site. His name is Christopher Caile. He is quiet an accomplished martial artist and individual.



Ummm, that isn't Mr. Caile. That is me.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/27/06 10:39 PM

I wasnt referring to the video, I was referring to the conversation about the site owner
Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/29/06 01:07 AM

Quote:

He isnt just a Moderator, he owns the entire site. His name is Christopher Caile. He is quiet an accomplished martial artist and individual.



Posted by: HiddenPalm

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 11/29/06 03:14 PM

I can't modify my post!

I have updated the questions to make more sense and added more videos. This same thread is having serious problems in other martial art message boards. EmptyFlower just cold kicked me out because I argued back to their moderator for assuming my lack of training based on this thread. What he should of done was help me reword the thing. People feel that this is really stupid with out truely understanding the nature of the questions. It is important to understand that no one's opinion is really wrong or completely correct. Your opinion is really based on what you already know as there are many movements that different schools would not even understand. And the videos have beginers and grandmasters - So it is not a contest ... it is theory talk and the sharing of ideas. Which hasnt happened yet.

Anyways, I moved this post to my own message board where I can moderate negativity and encourage constructive criticisms and sharing of ideas. This new message board is strickly for any student of any Internal art around the world and has a section made just for your lineage. As the moderator, I promise not to judge you or alineate people who ask questions that I dont agree with. And I wont allow other to do so either.

Fighting Arts is cool, because you guys havent been at all insulting unlike the other message boards. I appreciate that.

So here is the link to where this post has been moved to.

http://hiddenpalm.proboards92.com/index....0053&page=1

Thank you for entertaining the idea.

HiddenPalm
http://hiddenpalm.122mb.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/HiddenPalm
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Video Analysis of the 5 Elements Linking Form - 12/02/06 12:23 PM

Quote:

Why am I doing this? I fell in love with this form, and I'm trying to find the perfect one so I can practice it for the rest of my life - I'm sure many others will be helped also.


IMHO there is NO perfect form. What makes the form perfect is how the movements are executed. It really doesn’t matter which form it is, if the body structure and intent of the form is not correct then the usefulness of doing the form is sacrificed.

Quote:

This thread is very, very specific to the 5 Elements Linking Form - not other drills or accusations of fake training or anything negative! Let's keep this thread simple and clean. I don't want to get kicked out of here also.


Keep in mind that not everyone here is familiar with what the 5 elements linking form is and not all of the clips you posted are solely the 5 elements linking form so you are bound to get some confusion.
Keeping the thread simple and clean shouldn’t be an issue so long as you do not make it one.

Quote:

1. Which one of the videos do you think has the more complete form in terms of being able to execute all of the elements and their jing and combat practicality in the best ways possible for one's own practice regimen?


Once again, the folks on this forum may not be as familiar with the topics presented in you questions so you may end up with a bit of confusion. Perhaps you would consider simplifying your questions in order to elicit a more simple response.
Not everyone here is all that familiar with jing and how it applies to Xingyiquan.
As for combat practicality, I think that depends entirely on whether or not you train the arts properly. You are not going to learn to fight from the form alone. Learning to fight with an art and learning how a form is expressed in fighting requires a solid amount of training with others and a good teacher that knows how the art and its forms function. That being said. Good xingyi is extremely functional.

Quote:

For example some forms are really short and even lack some of the 5 Elements so when you drill the form you get less chances to execute techniques and jing power in practice.


Are you referring specific forms that you have posted here? IMO - you could practice one of the 5 elements to the point where you could apply it in many different ways. Do you think that a specific element is going to be applied like it is in the form in a fighting situation?

Quote:

Some are longer and more practical for combat situations with all of the Elements being done forward and backward. The opinion and choice will be yours and vary based on what people know. In short, no one is absolutely right on this one.


The length of a form has nothing to do with how effective it is in a combat situation. Whether or not the form is practical depends entirely on HOW you train it. Do you just do the form? Or do you actually take the time to pull it apart and see exactly how many ways the jing of the form can be executed?

Quote:

2. Which one is the best manifestation of the spirit of Xing Yi in your opinion?



I think I get what you are after here. Are you asking about the intent of the form being presented?

Now on to the forms themselves….

Clip 1: Shanxi Xing Yi
I am not all that familiar with Shanxi style. That being said, I thought that the guys in the first two clips presented a good representation of whole body power. Good structure and a solid intent. The last portion of the clip appears to be a 2 man set with a very fluid and sticky quality to it. It is these types of exercises that are key to making Xingyi functional.

Clip 2: Fu Zhongwen's student
This form looks similar to the form that I do. It looks like the end of the form has been shaved off, probably due to the lack of space. Nice power and intent and good structure. I wouldn’t expect less from one of Fu Zhongwen's students.

Clip 3: Chang Dong Sheng (The Shuai Chiao King)
This linkage is not a very good representation of quality Xingyiquan. I have the utmost respect for Master Chang, he was an amazing Shuai Chiao guy, however, he was not know for his xingyi.

Clip 4: Li Tai Liang
Good structure and intent, nice representation of fajing. There were some points in the form though that seemed to be a bit more performance oriented, (when he is ‘running‘ forward), it looked as if his power was continuous throughout the entire sequence though.

Clip 5: Sun Jian Yun
I liked this one. She clearly has good whole body power. Although her intent appears to be soft, it is still a strong willed intent. She appears to have a bit of a hunch, but that could simply be due to age.

Clip 6: Hung I-Hsiang
Personally one of my favorites. These are the 2 Xingyi linking forms that I train. The first time down and back is one form (a simple linking of the 5 elements) the second time down and back is the linkage that I do later in this list of clips.
Hung I-Hsiang has a solid and continuous power that is quite representative of the Yizong system of Hebei Xingyiquan and Gao style Baguazhang.

Clip 7: Sifu Rudy
Quality movement, intent, power generation, I think that this is an overall great representation of some quality Xingyiquan. I personally like how he demonstrates each of the elements/fists individually before he demonstrated the linkages.

Clip 8: An unknown woman
Good form. Her intent seemed to be a bit shallow though. It looked to me like she was holding herself back a bit.

Clip 9: Unknown man in red
Not bad - not as continuous as I like to see it though. Overall good power generation, structure and intent.

Clip 10: Unknown man from training VCD
Kind of difficult to say - the slow motion doesn’t allow a very good opportunity for examination. Full speed allows me to see the demonstration of dropping power more easily.

Clip 11: Unknown man doing what he calls "Attack Retreat 5 Elements Linked"
Interesting. I have never seen the form done in reverse. Pretty neat.

Clip 12: Wang Shu Jin
Great representation of utilizing continuous power in the form. He applies fajing, however, he does not have to stop and reset to do so.

Clip 13: Woooo hoooo I am on the list.

Clip 14: Unknown Chinese dude (also does BaGua)
His forward power looks good, but his dropping power looks to be a bit shallow. His intent looks like it is a bit more ‘Baguaesque’ in nature. It is not as fierce as most Xingyi intent usually is.

Clip 15: Wai Lun Choi
Looks like he rushed through things. His intent is not as solid possibly due to his speed.

(We have a bit of snow here in Colorado today so I had a few extra minutes to pick this apart. )