Hung Gar Kuen
Just for info, "Wu Dip Jeung" is cantonese for Butterfly (Wu Dip) Palm (Jeung)
You should see lots of double palm strikes / blocks in there.
Posted by: Taison
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 10/21/06 08:34 AM
So you're Wu Dip Jeung?
-Taison out
Too late for a username change now. "ButterflyPalm" has sort of become....enigmatic.
I chose it as my username because the techniques found in "Wu Dip Jeung" were my favourite decades ago when I did any kind of sparring and many people found it difficult to penetrate a two-handed defense/attack system, anyone of which can be for striking, trapping, blocking, in parallel, up or down.
There is also special training to "put" power specifically onto the striking area of the palm.
The sister art to Wu Dip Jeung is Phoenix Eye which shares many of the hand training and conditioning methods.
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 10/21/06 09:26 AM
That first form was looooong. That sure is a lot of movement to remember.
Do you think that this form is the main form for tha style of Hung Gar or is it one of many?
Thanks,
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 10/21/06 11:01 AM
Taming Tiger is a basic Hung Gar form, and more too.
You can read about it here
http://www.hungkuen.net/forms-4pillars.htmThe form is used in other Chinese systems (with variations) too.
Posted by: Taison
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 10/21/06 01:17 PM
Sounds interesting, mind elaborating more?
This "two-handed defense/attack system, anyone of which can be for striking, trapping, blocking, in parallel, up or down" sounds really neat.
-Taison out
It is actually something Bruce Li, during the days when traditional Chinese MAs theory was not that well known in the West, incorporated in his JKD; i.e. the 'Jeet' (intercepting) part. To meet what is coming at the point of its inception and stop it there. It was of course something new to the West then.
The various angles that an effective incoming attack can come are limited to a few and even then there is really no time (indeed impossible) to work those out in the middle of an attack/fight. So you, in a way, 'blindly' intercept with various two-handed defensive positons (whether side-by-side or one-up-one-down and they look like the two wings of a butterfly) and you have a more than 80% chance of stopping/intercepting the incoming attack.
This of course is only half the story. You need to counter attack and this is where the so-called one-inch punch / palm-strike comes in. Because at the point of interception, you would have been very close to your opponent and there would be no time / opportunity to telegraph, and so you need to train for an effective very closed range strike, whether its a phoenix eye punch to a pressure point (as I said Phoenix Eye being a sister art of Wu Dip Jeung) or a palm strike. And because of the way the 'wings' are held, they also provide protection for the front and rip areas of your body. Added to this will be the turning in of the front foot and knee to protect the groin area because any defensive/offensive forward movement exposes you to danger.
There are of course various closely guarded ancillary training to make your Phoenix Eye / Palm Strike effective (remember, you only have a couple of inches to play with); the chief of which was the ability to have 'whipping' power on the striking area of the palm and yet have a relaxed upper arm and shoulders; otherwise your whole arm would have been jamed up and lose the ability to 'whip' your strike in order to cause damage to the internal organs, which are the main targets because just damaging the outer muscles wouldn't be good enough. And either one or both 'wings' can be used to strike, hence its effectiveness.
And there you have it; the whole system of training comes in as a complete packge; leaving any part out would make it ineffective.
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 10/22/06 09:30 AM
Intercepring is a good skill to have. In class, we do a drill that works on intercepting someones force before it has a chance to leave their body. This teaches you how to read an opponent better, you can tell better if he is feinting or if he is actually trying to strike. There effect of stopping someones force can be quite jarring. It feels kind f like you just ran into a glass door you didn't know was there.
I agree that you must be prepared to follow up after you have intercepted your opponent. A short powerful strike is a good option as well as a throw, or both.
Posted by: HG1
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 10/24/06 10:23 AM
Quote:
That first form was looooong. That sure is a lot of movement to remember.
Do you think that this forms is the main form for tha style of Hung Gar or is it one of many? Thanks,
Gung Ji is one of four core empty hand forms in the Hung-Ga system. Yes, it is long to perform. Sets the foundation, develops breathing and basic stances.
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/08/06 03:11 AM
I want to start practicing a striking art and was thinking of doing hung gar you guys recommend it? muay thai also caught my eye but im not sure wich to pick...
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/08/06 06:51 AM
You are the only one that can answer which is better. Go try them both out and see which you like more.
It depends on what you are looking for.
Fast foods with lots of chilly / tomato sauce and a fizzy coke and its over in 15 mins., or a slow 2 hrs. sit down dinner with a smoked salmon/salad starter, a bleeding T-Bone for main and a black forest for dessert with coffee.
In the former, you will eventually ask yourself, is this all there is to it, or is there more to it.
In the latter, you will tell yourself, yeah, it was slow, it took the better part of the night, but man, what a meal.
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/08/06 11:13 AM
hehe nice metaphor
. yeah I'm going to check both out to see whats best for me, thanks for the advice
Posted by: HG1
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/10/06 10:00 PM
Quote:
I want to start practicing a striking art and was thinking of doing hung gar you guys recommend it? muay thai also caught my eye but im not sure wich to pick...
Hung-Ga has a steep learning curve in the begining. There is a method to the madness.
Both are good styles, choose the one that fits you the best.
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/11/06 01:26 PM
yeah I just started hung gar a couple of days ago, its preety cool. I still have to work on those crazy flips though x_X.
You are in for a long and sumptous meal, ASSUMING you are at the right restaurant with a master chef.
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/12/06 03:02 AM
I guess I'm with a master chef my teacher won the brazilian kung fu championship 7 times!!
not sure if it was the presentations or the fighting..
I was doing my 2nd class yesterday and my teacher made us do some kicks in the air some weird jumps and handstands.
Whats the point of practicing a bunch of spinning kicks in the air I think its kind of hard to land a kick like that in a middle of a fight :P
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/12/06 09:32 AM
Quote:
Whats the point of practicing a bunch of spinning kicks in the air I think its kind of hard to land a kick like that in a middle of a fight :P
These kicks aren't neccessarily going to be used in a fight. They teach you coordination and balance. If used i a fight it would have to be when an opponent is already 'off guard' and the kick will have to be executed with a lot of speed. Jumping kick, IMO, are a good training tool, but not really a good fighting technique. Jumping and spinning can leave you quite vulnerable.
Wishing you all the best in your chosen art.
No one uses every technique learned in a real fight or competition. Even all the useful hand techniques may not be used at all. But if it so happens an opportunity presents itself, you at least have trained for it and have a better chance of success.
Most long time practitioners of any combat art specialise in a few pet techniques reserved for a real fight if it ever happens, either because it suits their age, temperament or physique. But still for training purposes you have to go through the whole syllabus to know what is best for you, if you chose a TMA. That's why it takes so long. But not many of us will ever use it in a real fight because for most ordinary people (other than LEOs, professional competitors, etc.) a real fight rarely happens. So in choosing a TMA, you at least have learned an art and be proud of some measurement of achievement; it's like doing a simple waltz and doing the Tango.
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/17/06 09:48 PM
can sanshou be considered kung fu? I went in the kickboxing thread and there was a sticky saying it was kickboxing.. but it comes from kung fu right? Also do you guys think sanshou is up to par with other kickboxing styles?
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/18/06 09:08 AM
Quote:
can sanshou be considered kung fu?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanshou
IMO - I see sanshou as a method of free fighting not as a particular style.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/18/06 11:45 AM
San Shou can also be found in some varieties of Yang Tai Chi Chaun. There it is a 88 section 2 person exercise of very subtle and advanced technique applications. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has detailed it's practice in his Advanced Tai Chi II book. Some very, very, very interesting subtle techniques.
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/18/06 03:02 PM
Yea I agree with Fisherman
San Shou is more like a fighting level that you attain in my head.
People start off fighting by looking like something, whether its an animal or with a specific stance.
As you progress in your career you're form starts to adapt to whatever presents itself to you.
It starts to change and eventually there is no form
thus giving its name "free hand" / "free fight"
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/18/06 09:18 PM
You'll achieve the point where your fighting formless when you incorporate all your forms together and adapt to the situation right?
But what if you learned it formless from the beginning and learn all the striking like you would in a traditional kickboxing manner without going through all the forms and stuff. Would that comprmise the quality of kung fu your learning?
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/19/06 03:33 AM
good question....
I wouldnt say that your fighting or technique would be less effective but adding form to your training adds more to your development. And I guess the more you do in your training the more farther you can progress. Its like taking a great fighter who never ever did horse stance and you have him do horse stance in his training. I'm sure the time & effort placed into the stance and form wouldnt exactly take away from anything.
honestly I dont think my body and strength would be the same without the forms and such in the kungfu that i'm learning. The power that I would generate wouldn't be the same.
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/19/06 10:27 AM
Quote:
You'll achieve the point where your fighting formless when you incorporate all your forms together and adapt to the situation right?
You will begin to fight formless when you have trained enough that what you do becomes dependednt on what the situation dictates. You train to the point where you react naturally yet consciously to what is going on in the conflict.
Quote:
But what if you learned it formless from the beginning and learn all the striking like you would in a traditional kickboxing manner without going through all the forms and stuff. Would that comprmise the quality of kung fu your learning?
If you mean that you would take traditional kungfu and train it the way you do kickboxing, yes, the quality would be comprimised. Forms are there to help in training your body and maybe more important, they help you to develop focus.
The reason that traditional kickboxing is so effective is because they train how to fight. I think that a lot of kungu scholls neglect this and simply focus on the forms as a sole method of training. Forms are good exercise, but forms alone will not train you how to fight. You need to learn how the principles inherent in the forms are used and train that with others. The more you do this, the closer you will get to learning how they work in a free-fighting situation.
Forms alone are not going to make you a good fighter, you have to train fighting to be a good fighter.
Quote:
Its like taking a great fighter who never ever did horse stance and you have him do horse stance in his training. I'm sure the time & effort placed into the stance and form wouldnt exactly take away from anything.
Just so long as he is not sacrificing something else in his fighting training to work on the stance. If he adds it to his training regimen then I would agree that it is benificial. Standing for prolonged periods in stances does make you stronger, but in order to fight well you also have to train the structural stabilty of stance work while moving in an unrehearsed fashion.
Posted by: Bossman
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/19/06 03:20 PM
Here's an interview I did with Lau Ka Yung in 2002 courtesy of Mark Houghton and Jim Uglow:
Quote:
Hung Gar Movie Lion - Lau Ka Yung (Liu Chia Yong)
I made my way to the cradle of UK Hung Gar Kung Fu and Yeung (Yang) Family Tai Chi, Jim Uglow’s kwoon in East London to find three of the best Hung Gar practitioners, Jim Uglow, Mark Houghton and Lau Ka Yung (also known by his mandarin name of Liu Chia Hseung).
Jim’s new kwoon is a mecca for kung fu, it’s like walking into a traditional Hong Kong kwoon with shrines to the Hung Gar masters and the Yeung (Yang) family, with an array of traditional kung fu weaponry and lions used in the kung fu lion dances, an appropriate place to meet with and interview Lau Ka Yung, Hong Kong kung fu movie star, stunt man, action director and member of the famous Lau family line of Hung Gar kung fu.
His grandfather is Lau Chaam who studied under Lam Sai Wing who studied under Wong Fei Hung, the most famous practitioner of the style. His uncle is Lau Ka Leung (also known as Liu Chia Liang and affectionately known in the Hong Kong film industry as “The Pops”) the famous Hong Kong kung fu movie director who gave him his first break in the movies all those years ago.
Some of the more famous movies he has appeared in are ‘Tigress of Shaolin’ in which he appeared with his mother, ‘Drunken Master’ 1, 2 and 3, ‘Fearless Duo’, ‘Carry On Wise Guy’ (also called ‘Warrior of Shaolin’), ‘Spiritual Boxer’ and he was the director of ‘New Kids in Town’.
Over 50 films later and numerous television appearances, Lau Ka Yung still loves his Hung Gar kung fu and the movie industry. He is working with his kung fu brother and no stranger to kung fu movies and the pages of Martial Arts International, Mark Houghton, on a series of 3 DVD’s, due for release early next year which tell the story of each Hung Gar form, how those forms were trained in the Shaolin Temple and then giving instruction on each. I have seen a preview and I have to say that they look sensational.
SR Welcome to England.
LKR Thank you it’s good to be here and training with my kung fu brothers.
SR Can you tell the readers how you became involved in the martial arts?
LKY I started at 8years old and learned from my mother. I am now 47 years old and still learning!
SR Can you give some background of your family style of Kung fu?
LKY My mother is Lau Siu Yee who studied under her father, my grandfather, Lau Chaam who studied under Lam Sai Wing, a very famous martial artist in his own right who studied under the famous Wong Fei Hung, founder of the Hung Gar style and martial arts hero that Jet Li is famous for playing.
Her brother is Lau Ka Leung (Liu Chia Liang) who is famous for the ‘36 Chambers of Shaolin’ film and is a well known director of martial arts movies known in the industry as “The Pops”.
SR How did your mother structure your training?
LKY In the traditional way. Hung Gar starts with stance work and what we call the ‘bridge’ (arm position between you and your opponent), your eyes and how you use vision and perception, it’s considered to be a ‘hard’ style of kung fu. Hung Gar is practised in different ways by many different people now, but the heart and the forms are still the same.
SR How often did you train with your mother?
LKY Every day and night! We couldn’t get out of it!
SR Were you introduced to any other Kung fu Masters at that time?
LKY My mother never introduced me to any other sifu, but because of my lineage and subsequently working in the movie industry I enjoyed all kinds of martial arts and needed a wide variety of choice when co-ordinating fights for a scene.
It doesn’t matter which road you travel in the martial arts because all roads lead to the same destination. It depends on you personally who you decide to call sifu.
SR How did you get involved in the movies?
LKY When I was a youngster, I only liked Kung fu. My school studies were not so good, so my mother asked me to follow my uncle who was the famous kung fu film director La Kau Leung into the film industry. I learned how to be an actor, director and stunt co-ordinator. I was also able to study kung fu under my uncle as well.
SR How many movies have you appeared in?
LKY Fifty. I’ve also appeared so many times on TV that I’ve lost count.
SR Which movies were you most proud of?
LKY Every one I’ve done! I just love kung fu movies! As long as it’s a kung fu movie…. I’m happy!
I was the stunt co-ordinator on Jackie Chan’s ‘Young Master’ and I did the Lion Dance sequence at the beginning. Whenever you can’t see the face in the sequence… it was me!
After that I went to work for Shaw Brothers and worked on the 36 Chambers of Shaolin.
When I was 24 I took the lead role in ‘Dragon Claw’ with Wong Jung Lee the Korean actor and then there were so many others – it’s hard to choose any one in particular.
I did a movie entitled ‘Tigress of Shaolin’, about a woman with spots on her face who was good at Kung fu and from that woman came the style of Ma Fung Kuen and my mother played the lead role in that.
SR Is your training for movies different from your traditional kung fu training?
LKY There is a difference between real kung fu and that which is shown in movies. Kung fu is for health, fitness and defence. Movie kung fu is for entertainment therefore it’s a lot lighter; we take segments out of real kung fu to use in movies.
You don’t have to learn real kung fu for movie fighting but if you learn traditional kung fu, movie fighting is easy.
SR You’re now 47 years old, what would a normal training routine be for you?
LKY I now train every other day. I start with running and jogging and then do hei kung (chi kung breathing exercises) I then do forms, I don’t stand too long in horse stance because I like to move around.
SR What are you doing now?
LKY I’m doing TV work and working with my kung fu brother Mark Houghton, to make some kung fu instructional films – I would like to spread the Lau family version of Hung Gar to the world to give people the opportunity to find us and for us to go to them. The Lau style of Hung Gar has been locked away in the movie industry for too long. People have seen the style in movies like the ‘36 Chambers of Shaolin’ now it’s time for them to be able to follow their heroes and train in it.
SR Can you tell the readers a bit about the instructional DVD that you’re working on?
LKY There are 3 forms in Hung Gar and 3 movies. The first is Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen (Tiger Crane form). The second is Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen (Subdue the Tiger) the third is the form from my master, Yeung Gar Ng Lung Pa Kua Gwan (the Yang Family Fifth Brother Eight Diagram Pole). The DVD’s are about the 3 forms, they give the real history of Hung Gar. They talk about the heroes, their stories and how the forms came about. How in the Shaolin Temple the masters of Tiger and Crane styles lost against the master of the White Eyebrow style and how they combined their styles to defeat him. So the first movie is about the merging of the Tiger and Crane styles and you see this take place, the training and in the end we teach the form. In Subdue the Tiger there is not the history but you see the training segments and demonstrations. In the Yang Family Fifth Brother Eight Diagram Pole you see the true story of the family famous for spear fighting with 7 sons. They all go off to war and the sons die or go crazy leaving only the fifth son who is tired of killing and he breaks the end off his spear and enters the Shaolin Temple.
He then finds that he has to use his skills to protect the Shaolin Temple so he combines his spear techniques with those of the Shaolin pole. That’s how we get the Yang Family Fifth Brother Eight Diagram Pole. It’s a very famous story and the film shows it, the training and the form.
SR When are the films due for release?
LKY In the UK? Early in the New Year, they’re in the editing suite now.
SR How long are you in the UK for?
LKY Just 8 days.
SR Have you enjoyed England?
LKY I haven’t managed much in the way of sight seeing, although I have held a UK passport all my life, this is my first visit! I have enjoyed teaching Hung Gar here in the kwoon of Jim Uglow and intend to return.
SR What would you like to do in the future?
LKY I would like to do some fight direction for some English movies and UK television, to teach Lion Dance, my speciality and continue to spread Lau style Hung Gar Kung Fu.
SR I think you will be an excellent ambassador for that. We are happy to see you here and hope that you return soon.
LKY Thank you, it’s been a good visit and I hope to return.
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/19/06 03:59 PM
nice interview, I like how he says he doesnt like horse stance because I agree with him, haha
And yea I did mean to say if a fighter added horse stance to his training. Horse stance does improve something, therefore improve his physical ability?
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 11/20/06 11:57 AM
thx for the info
Posted by: Morpheus
Re: Hung Gar Kuen - 08/22/07 12:36 AM
Cool