Stressed out...by Tai Chi!

Posted by: Prizewriter

Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/21/06 05:21 PM

Hey all. I took a Tai Chi class near my place of work last year to see what it was all about.

I went in, and was the youngest member of the group by about 10 years at least.

During class, people were talking to each other, mobile phones weren't turned off, and the sifu had an awful soundtrack coming out of the stereo, it was a terrible new age, low quality pseudo-oriental music CD.

All in all, I found it tricky to relax in this environment. I wasn't "stressed" per se, but I couldn't relax. I have been able to relax in MA classes before.

Do you find Tai Chi relaxing? Perhaps it was the surrondings that disrupted my ability to relax, or maybe my Tai Chi needed a lot more work!!!
Posted by: alphawolf

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/21/06 07:15 PM

In the dojo setting we dont allow any of that, i dont do tai chi, but none the less it is still a martial art and should be treated with respect. If someone in my class is caught using a cell phone,talking, ect they are usually told to put it away immedietly and stop. I know that when i go to the dojo, i go to learn and to progress in an environment that i feel comfortable in. If people are really talking in the middle of class with cell phones ringing, horrible music, and the instructor doesn't care, i think its time to find a new place to go.
Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/21/06 07:25 PM

martial art is martial art (and that wasn't it).

but what kind of relaxation are you looking for? knowing what you actually want will help.

if you're looking for a way to hang out and blow off some steam after work, make a few friends etc. you're probably better off joining a kenpo school or something.

if you just want something meditative and a little exercise, i would actually suggest you look for a reputable yoga studio.

at least with the first two, chances are, you'll end up with some sort of real skill for your time spent.

by far, finding someone who can teach you any internal art and not have it turn into some hippy new age crap fest, or just be down right completely ineffective in promoting anything but the most superficial type of relaxation, is like looking for a diamond amongst a nest full of dung beetles.

the number of internal arts masters who can actually use thier art with out resorting to bad western boxing AND have a high degree of mindfulness and concentration AND can pass thier skills on to you can be counted on probably one hand.
Posted by: kunin

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/21/06 08:10 PM

The class, the way you describe it, sounds like a real dog, hardly conducive to serious practice. Who knows what the regulars there were getting out of it! I can imagine, though—'imagine' being the operative word here —that a couple of the more serious ones were keeping their minds on business while everyone else was messing around. Who would you think, then, would attract bits of individualized instruction and advice from an otherwise indifferent instructor? Many traditional teachers operate on this principle—perhaps not tolerating such lackadaisical behavior as your witnessed, but still handing their students just enough rope to reveal themselves.

As far as "relaxation" goes, what exactly were you looking for? Real-deal taiji practice is guaranteed to challenge your leg endurance and make you sweat! It's not unusual to see pools on the floor where a serious class has just finished performing a slow set. Cultivating structure and connectivity to the dantien requires a lot of strenuous "factory work," and the way relaxation figures into this is rather different from what most folks expect. That said, it does tend to “hurt good” more often than not, with mind and body feeling relaxed and refreshed after you’ve had some time to recover!
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/21/06 09:30 PM

Prizewriter,

Well that class does not resemble my own studies, which were one on one with my instructor.

But interestlingly I once took a clinic with Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and he described the large open daily tai chi practice in China and it does resemble your findings.

He told us town open tai chi practice was a social event. People would talk, discuss their shopping, etc. while they practiced the form together.

I've also seen plenty of groups pratice with new age music in the background.

There are millions of different tai chi practices after all.

The last 20 years I practice on my drive way, except for rain, every Sunday morning from +100f to -20f, and of course it's not quiet, there is the wind, the birds and critters, car noises and even occassional hot air baloons overhead.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/22/06 02:36 AM

I think the problem is with the word/concept of 'relax / relaxation'

Many new students in a mandarin speaking TC class will always be told to be and remained "suung" It does not exclusively or necessarily means 'relaxed' in the sense of relaxing in front of the TV with a beer in hand watching a sporting event.

It is closer to being 'loose' physically, but not being limpy.

Think of a tree bending in the wind; it bends because its limbs/branches are loose, but still remains stiff enough to withstand the wind. The tree is suung and relaxed even, but not limpy; if it is, it would have collapsed as a heap onto the ground, which is what you would do on the couch in front of the TV with a beer in hand.

So how do you get to be suung but not limpy and still be stiff AND relaxed?

I know of only one way -- Zhan Zhuang. Every TC or internal MA student should do (daily) at least (minimum) one year of ZZ before starting on any TC or internal Forms.

ZZ will turn you into a tree, not after one year, but eventually, and when that happens, you can practice TC in a disco or whatever people go to these days to relax.

One last thing, stand naturally with you elbows (bent at 90 degrees) very close to your ribs for a few seconds, then do the same thing with the elbows about 10 inches away from the ribs. In the former you feel stiff and not relaxed, though you can be loose. In the latter, you feel loose (suung) relaxed and can still feel the internal stiffness of your skeletal structure.

With ZZ, this feeling of internal structural stiffness will increase to the point where outwardly you look 'relaxed' / 'suung' but stiff like a tree inside. This represents the start (only the start) of acquiring the martial side of TC or other internal MA.

For now go look at a tree on a windy day.

Good Luck. You need it.
Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/22/06 03:20 PM

Butterfly,

what style/s do you train and where abouts in malaysia are you?

anyway, song is not enough. you need to go through (fan) song (loose, the term fan song has the sense of long hair to give non mandarin speakers an idea

then ran (soft), rou (elastic, this is where you get to the tree like example Buterfly Palm quoted; tight, yet flexible, or springy) then (fa) jing.

as you progress through the stages, you start adding in curvi-linear movement that gets tighter and tighter (like winding the spring) until you get to fa jing which is releasing the spring.

IMO, ZZ is not enough. it has it's place but and you still need to play with all the qualities of "relaxation" (song, ran, rou, jing) within your ZZ practice.

but in my training experience and after playing with other IMA-ist's the best method for developing these qualities is through some sort of heavy rou shao practice. without fail, anybody that i've ever met that had some skill spent a lot of time doing heavy rou shao.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/23/06 01:21 PM

I hate mobiles and insist they are turned off when I run any kind of class or workshop. Music, depends on how I'm training.

For TC, I once did personal training to Chinese Opera but don't know if I'd like it in class.

Where I did get stressed out was doing my form next to a river or lake or in a forest, because the mosquitoes and horseflies kept taking advantage. My 'brush past the knee' turned into a slap on the back of the neck more than once.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/24/06 12:33 AM

I've just recently relocated to KL and spend my semi-retirement dabbling in chi gung to keep healthy, plus cutting down on fatty foods, sugar, hard-meat and all the other stuff that makes life worthwhile.....sighhhhh.......
Posted by: ashe_higgs

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/24/06 02:28 AM

alright, you're in just the right neighborhood! see if you can check out the i liq chuan (yi li quan) group there. ask for "jimmy". ;-)
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/24/06 11:45 PM

Thanks.
Posted by: BaguaMonk

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/27/06 09:07 PM

My instructor was chinese so he only played chinese classical music

But now that I am in SB california, I don't know if I'm going to be able to find the same quality of instruction
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/28/06 09:06 AM

I think that where you practice will definately dictate how much disruption you will have. I don't think that the class room is the place for it. If you want to talk with folks or have your cell phone available, then do it on your own practice time. I don't mind a bit of light music in the background, but even that can be disruptive when working on deep mind practices. My teachers will often say, "That better be the president!" if someone is talking on their phone in class.
Posted by: RonH

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! - 08/28/06 07:08 PM

Quote:

by far, finding someone who can teach you any internal art and not have it turn into some hippy new age crap fest, or just be down right completely ineffective in promoting anything but the most superficial type of relaxation, is like looking for a diamond amongst a nest full of dung beetles.

the number of internal arts masters who can actually use thier art with out resorting to bad western boxing AND have a high degree of mindfulness and concentration AND can pass thier skills on to you can be counted on probably one hand.



Then, I must have had one of those teachers. Looking back, I can evaluate it and say I definately had one of those types of good internal teachers. The thing is, it definately wasn't the traditional teachings. It was very informal in people interations. Me and my profe would rip on each other so much during class, everyone was laughing so hard. And, since I quickly became my profe's favorite for this particular place he taught, we both used it to rip into each other more, me more than him. I took some Shaolin Kempo Karate with my profe's profe, who taught him both Tai Chi and SKK and his classes had some joking, but it was more formal. But, while it was mainly me and my profe ripping into each other, the other students and me would all rip on each other and they'd rip in on my profe. It was a blast. During the time I was going to the class (I can't now because of other responsibilities), I saw big improvements with everyone. There was the usual one that would show up for a class or two and stop because of time/scheduling/etc., but we were all doing good.

The class didn't have music, except for this one time there was another class in before ours (it was at the Y) and we had it on briefly. It didn't matter to us, if we had music or not and one of the students actually used the movements of the form, like he was dancing to the beat of the music, we were dying with laughter. If it was important to have a cell on, we'd just tell the profe that we had a call we were waiting for and he'd be fine with it. If it rang, we weren't annoyed during the form and the receiveer would go out into the hall to talk.

But, we were serious a lot of the time, even though it doesn't seem like from what I've written. We'd really focus on the form and keep working, throw a joke in, laugh and go back to work. Sometimes, the talking lasted longer, but then, we'd go back to work. Only a few times have we really wasted a couple of classes, but my profe didn't mind.

We definately felt the sweat pouring off of us and the shaking of our legs and then, we'd goof on a particular part of the form or a warm up exercise, we'd laugh and then, get back to work. It was very fun.

Both his beginner and advance classes were like this and I had been in both, but...the one thing that would get him mad is if someone was in the hall and they were just talking so loud or there was extremely loud music next door or a class down the hall had kids in it and they were all screaming and yelling and talking real loud. That's the only time I ever saw him get mad and he was a very clam fellow. We'd close the door and if it was still really loud, I'd sware his head was replaced by a mutant beet he was so mad. He had an ice cold glare that made me think 'I'm so glad I don't make him mad with all the ripping I do; let someone else be the target of his anger; I don't want it aimed my way'. It's like he saved it all up to be this really scarey monster with this 'grr' like stare and that made him so much cooler. He just stares at you and you think 'grr', like a lion or a cougar. It was awesome.

The teacher was cool. He taught me a lot, but I figured out a huge bunch on my own and I gave him a few perspective things and variations he was happy to learn. I showed him some moves of a few other styles I had learned from my own research into the moves and moves based on the philosophical views of those systems.
Posted by: michaelg

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! Discipline is the m - 09/21/06 09:05 AM

Discipline is the mother of victory!
The things you have experienced at Tai Chi class sound very strange...
I think this is the matter of teaching method (or lack of method) and professionalism...

Have a look at the example of discipline at Tai Chi classes:

"Discipline is the mother of victory" (Aleksandr Suvorov)

Preparation for training

Participants should come to the trainings on time.
Participants should be prepared for the forthcoming training.
Clothes should be only changed in specially assigned place.
Smoking, taking alcoholic drinks or any other intoxicating substances on the eve of the training is unacceptable.
Mobile phones must be turned off during the training.
It is forbidden to film or take pictures during the process.
Appearance guidance

Clothing for the training should be comfortable. It is not recommended to wear skirts, provoking clothes or to participate in training naked.
During the training participants should take off all ornaments: ear-rings, bracelets, necklaces, watches, sharp hair-pins, etc.
Loose or long hair should be tied back.
Chewing gums are allowed outside the room.
Strong smelling perfumery is allowed after the training.
Guidelines during the training:

Responsibility towards yourself, your health and your mind.
Every participant is responsible for his physical condition during the training.
It is necessary to notify in advance about limitations and to adjust the participation with the teacher beforehand.
Irrelevant conversations, raising of voice or laughter are unacceptable.
Anything unrelated to the training should be left outside the room.
If necessary to finish the class earlier, participant should notify the teacher in advance.
Questions should be formulated clearly and asked at the end of the training (first think, then ask).
Attention and concentration is the way to effective study.
Common requirements

Regular attendance of training.
Participants should proceed to the study of the next level by authority of the teacher.
It is forbidden to go into combats without authority of the teacher.
In the absence of the teacher the senior student is conducting the class.
When studying Tai Chi Chuan it is not recommended to engage in additional practices without consulting with the teacher.
Start training if you have possibility and wish to follow these rules.

http://www.iugte.com/projects/taichi.php
Posted by: RonH

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! Discipline is the m - 09/21/06 12:25 PM

Well, it definately lacked traditionally formal training, but it still worked. It was a very relaxed atmosphere. Plus, he was a little off his nut. If there was anything I always beat him at, it was being more off my nut than he was off his.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Stressed out...by Tai Chi! Discipline is the m - 09/27/06 04:18 AM

naked training, now there's a thought!

Does that mean totally or partially?