Hard wing chun sparring/fighting
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 12:00 PM
I hear so much naysaying on WC because of a lack of hard sparring. I also hear just as much noise indicating that many practitioners do spar hard and that there is wc training for military, FBI, LEO, etc. that is very hard and aggresive. My own sifu says that he is favorable of hard sparring (and cross training with ground/clinch arts), but since there are many noobs, sparring will not commence till at least september. I've also heard talk of fighters modifying WC for vale tudo style comps (using only about 50% of the system and substituting more ring tactics).
Anyway, if anyone knows where I can obtain info, clips, pics etc of serious full-steam wc, please post it. I want to see more of how the techniques are applied in actual fight situations. NOTE: I know NOTHING works on the Big Bad Street, except for all the techniques Prizewriter listed in another thread.
Posted by: Tezza
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 02:13 PM
Well for actual hard sparring video clips there are not many out there.
Although recently a Wing Tsun club called Meihua who teach Wing Tsun applied a new scheme called Koong-Sao. Their website is:
http://www.meihua.ee/en It is quite good stuff although it just proves that when actually fighting you forget your actual movements and just box with them. For a clip:
Video This is only a taster if you go on the website at the top you can download the various video clips from the past years.
Also we have hosted a type of fight club where only very enthusiastic members can come and spar. Shh first rule of fight club don't talk about it. (oops) lol. It went very well I was so surprised as it really kicks your adrenaline in and you just forget techniques and just want to break your opponents neck. lol
I will upload one to youtube if my internet stops messing around.
Hope this helps.
Posted by: Tezza
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 02:33 PM
Video Clip There we go I uploaded one to you tube if it makes it easier.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 04:15 PM
That was some rough stuff! I could only imagine if they had integrated some judo/bjj...
I could pick out some techniques in there - chain punches all over, lap sao, pak sao and a few good bong saos and some others I don't know the name of. Thanks!
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 04:21 PM
Hardcore! Good clips!
The only thing that bugged me a bit was the lack of control. Kicking someone in the head while they are on the ground doesn't require a whole lot of skill if you ask me.
I have a ton of respect for anyone that goes after their training this hard.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 04:27 PM
So do you think if you had trained your body in WC so well that you could tan sao as automatically as an MMA fighter could pull guard or throw a jab, you could use it to win over a fighter with less control? I'm not trying to start any BS criticism of TMA vs. MMA or any of that
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 06:52 PM
It looked like bad mma.
If you were going to train MMA, just train MMA.
All I saw were examples of bad clinch work and no leg attack (takedowns). It seemed like the only thing they were trying to throw was the straight blast and the push kick.
It was missing a few vital elements such as good clinch control and good (skilled) ground fighting.
-John
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 09:01 PM
Anything can look like MMA, especially bad MMA if you wanted it to. Why would you want to train MMA if the point of sparring is to learn how to use WC under pressure? I'll admit that it was sloppy and out of control, but it's the same thing I see in sparring with boxing, kali, BJJ and yes, even MMA - technique goes out the window when the heat is on. Is this always the case? NO. But it is until students can program their bodies to react quickly with effective techniques. Whatever. I didn't post this to talk about MMA anyway
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 10:15 PM
Was merely stating my opinion. Next time you dont want anyone's opinions just f*cking say as much.
-John
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/05/06 11:24 PM
wow
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/06/06 08:09 AM
Quote:
So do you think if you had trained your body in WC so well that you could tan sao as automatically as an MMA fighter could pull guard or throw a jab, you could use it to win over a fighter with less control?
Did I say that I could? You asked an opinion of the vid you posted. I said that I thought the people fighting were exercising little control, especially in regards to kicking someone in the head when they are already on the ground.
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/06/06 09:42 AM
Quote:
So do you think if you had trained your body in WC so well that you could tan sao as automatically as an MMA fighter could pull guard or throw a jab, you could use it to win over a fighter with less control? I'm not trying to start any BS criticism of TMA vs. MMA or any of that
yes it takes allot of practice. Its called muscle memory. sparring like that will not create any good muscle memory.
Quote:
it looked like bad mma.
If you were going to train MMA, just train MMA.
All I saw were examples of bad clinch work and no leg attack (takedowns). It seemed like the only thing they were trying to throw was the straight blast and the push kick.
It was missing a few vital elements such as good clinch control and good (skilled) ground fighting.
I agree 100%
Honestly I would bring it down a notch and work on good technique before you try this type of training. I didn't really see anything that I would call “Wing Chun”.
I believe training hard. I believe strongly in practicing sparring hard. But I also think that its only us full if you support it with undersizes that build good Wing chun skill. If you want to train fast reactions with a tan sao.. then do the exercise that build that reaction. If you want to train speed then have then throw hard fast hooks. If you want to work on timing ect.. you can have them move and vary them like boxers attack. ect..
JMO I will look for some clips of me training hard.. normally no one is free to tape them though. 
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/06/06 10:01 AM
Uh, OK - let me clarify my position on this.
I asked a direct question: are there any videos etc. that show WC being sparred or fought with in a hard, full-on fashion. I DID NOT POST THE VIDEO! Tezza was nice enough to hunt it down. Even though it's far from an ideal example, it was what he could find.
Look, I welcome opinions as freely as I give them, but no I didn't say "here's another video - discuss."
JKogas - I'm really sorry if I came off as flip to you. I have nothing but respect for you insofar as this forum goes and my aim was not to ruffle your feathers. Your point was spot on and I agree especially because I still subscribe to the MMA training curriculum. However, I really don't think I deserved the reaction you posted. I was just pointing out that I wasn't looking for an MMA answer to a WC question - no big deal. Just keep in mind sometimes posts, emails etc. don't always come off the way the writer intends them to.
I hate it when this happens. When a simple inquiry becomes a debate for no real reason. I guess I should know better than to ask such questions by now. I just wanted information, I posted with my hand outstretched. Thanks guys (not sarcastic)
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/06/06 12:02 PM
Well honestly its not a common training drill traditionally. I have always been discouraged by my seniors and by Disciples of Ip Man. The reason being you first are only fighting WC people in class. Its unrealistic. Second you need allot of protection (mostly on your shins and stomach area). which makes it hard to fight.
Lastly it build bad habits.
That being said every suggest sparring hard with Other styles. and In class if one person decides to be a "street fighter".the problem is that most schools don't have a free person to tape these sessions. Here is a old clip of Someone in the Circle with mid-power.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/112699h.mpgBest bet is to get a clip of some good WC fighters in a MMA fight or NHB fight or some San shao stuff from HK. I don’t know of any that are on tape though. Mostly people don’t like to have clips of them fighting around the internet.
Posted by: Tezza
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/06/06 01:08 PM
Hi guys,
Firstly I would like to apologise as it was me that posted the clips.
Like ShikataGaNai said I only searched for what I could find.
Like you say it is very sloppy but like any hard sparring you tend to forget techniques and then just windmill punch etc.
Sorry if I caused any issues as I was only looking for a video to show what a Wing Chun school doing hard sparring is like.
Peace
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/06/06 02:32 PM
No I think its a good topic. I was told something that really make sense. If you lose your technique during a "real" fight or hard sparring.. then you are not training enough. If you start wind milling.. then you need to start with the basics again.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/06/06 02:44 PM
I wonder if the students in that video started off with a bad foundation? Or maybe they just weren't ready for sparring? Even worse, it might be one of those situations where the "wing chun xxxx" indicates a distorted version of the system that does not respect the basics? At any rate, I totally agree with you - even if I've practiced otherwise in the past
Posted by: Tezza
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 07/07/06 06:06 AM
Agreed. I feel that they were not ready for the hard sparring that they were doing, although it is a good way to learn to control yourself.
If it was me and I forgot everything I would just chain punch my way in.
Posted by: SifuHax
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/10/09 07:34 AM
Quote:
Was merely stating my opinion. Next time you dont want anyone's opinions just f*cking say as much.
Oh, wow. That turned sour real quick . I haven't even seen the vids yet.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/10/09 11:29 AM
SifuHax,
You're commenting on a post (an admittedly BAD one) that I made nearly three years ago. If I could do it over again, I'd have taken a different approach with the topic and the member, whom I have much respect for. I can't recall the circumstances now (for why I would have been such as ass) but, to dig this up is somewhat as tasteless as I was then. The last post in this thread before yours was dated July of 2006.
Want to talk about Wing Chun and sparring? Be my guest. There are no time limits on worthwhile topics and communications. Though it wouldn't be MY decision to dig up an old thread solely to focus on the negative aspects of the conversation.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/10/09 01:15 PM
Yeah, I'm with Jkogas - a LOT changes in 3 years.
Posted by: SifuHax
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/10/09 02:52 PM
. . . ok.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/11/09 02:38 PM
But its cool Hax, just so you know. I didn't want to give you the impression that I was coming on here trying to gun you down. So it's all cool. God only knows, we're not trying to drive new members off or anything. Your voice is welcome here. At the same time, we're also trying to set the tone, if you can dig that (of which, I have not always done the best job).
Posted by: Usenthemighty
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/14/09 02:22 AM
Hey I'm all for Wing Chung but it did look pretty bad, uncontrolled, with no technique.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/14/09 06:10 PM
Seems like it was all straight blast and mount position. It can be said that real fights aren't pretty affairs and that simple things are all you need. I'm not against the straight blast. But if that's all that comes out of the Wing Chun system in a fight, then you don't need to study Wing Chun to get that.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/14/09 06:28 PM
Edited out, no point in necroing this I suppose.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/14/09 09:20 PM
Zach,
Whats the point of having a discussion forum if there is no discussion?
Posted by: Zach_Zinn
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/15/09 01:27 AM
Sigh... well ok here goes:
Oddly enough I agree with JKogas.
While I applaud to some degree (only to some, the head kick on the ground was too much imo) the spirit and cojones it takes to train like that period, I didn't see a whole lot there that would require Wing Chun or any other training.
It seems like you could take some non-trained guys off the street throw the gear on em and let em go at and it would look similar to this. Particularly on the ground it seems like no one has any positional grappling experience whatsoever to combine with the striking.
Again I can see if what people are focusing on is purely adrenaline and contact, this is pretty impressive, but beyond the opening volleys of Wing Chun chain punching I didn't see a lot of trained responses there.
No question it takes a lot of heart ot get in there and mix it up like that, i'm just questioning whether it's particularly good training rather than just a brawl.
I know "it never looks pretty in real life'...everyone knows that, I personally think the videos went beyond just not looking pretty, to showing a lack of any trained technique minus the opening shots.
IMHO properly conducted, more technical sparring, -even sparring with less contact and intensity- is probably more beneficial for most.
So i'm not objecting to the intensity, I just don't understand the point of the intensity without anything there but a couple of chain punches in the very beginning.
SO yeah hope no one takes offense to the critique, I don't train at the level of intensity in the videos, I might have when I was younger but those days are gone...so these are just my observations.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/15/09 09:29 AM
Quote:
Sigh... well ok here goes:
Oddly enough I agree with JKogas.
Don't take it so hard fella, 
Quote:
While I applaud to some degree (only to some, the head kick on the ground was too much imo) the spirit and cojones it takes to train like that period, I didn't see a whole lot there that would require Wing Chun or any other training.
It seems like you could take some non-trained guys off the street throw the gear on em and let em go at and it would look similar to this.
I agree. Right before they go in to fight you show them chain punching and then let them have at it.
Quote:
Particularly on the ground it seems like no one has any positional grappling experience whatsoever to combine with the striking.
The implied notion here is that this is "Wing Chun". I would say it looks like people who've watched MMA and are trying to ape it.
Quote:
Again I can see if what people are focusing on is purely adrenaline and contact, this is pretty impressive, but beyond the opening volleys of Wing Chun chain punching I didn't see a lot of trained responses there.
Thing is, I believe that is most of what you'll see of wing chun in an adrenaline fueled fighting situation. I'm not easily convinced that when the pressure of a real fight is on along with the corresponding adrenal dump, that you're going to see a lot of the compound trapping and other refined skills associated with wing chun. I'm just not.
That said, these guys looked like they had been training for all of a month. None showed the pacing of veteran fighters.
Quote:
No question it takes a lot of heart ot get in there and mix it up like that, i'm just questioning whether it's particularly good training rather than just a brawl.
I agree with you completely. It does take heart. It should also take adequate training and skill. I also think that people should spar those outside of one's own style. These vids all appear to have wc guys sparring other wc guys.
Quote:
I know "it never looks pretty in real life'...everyone knows that, I personally think the videos went beyond just not looking pretty, to showing a lack of any trained technique minus the opening shots.
IMHO properly conducted, more technical sparring, -even sparring with less contact and intensity- is probably more beneficial for most.
So i'm not objecting to the intensity, I just don't understand the point of the intensity without anything there but a couple of chain punches in the very beginning.
SO yeah hope no one takes offense to the critique, I don't train at the level of intensity in the videos, I might have when I was younger but those days are gone...so these are just my observations.
I agree. It was sloppy. Also, lessening the intensity is good to take people out of mere "survival" mode allowing them to move into learning mode with good coaching and supervision. It's always good to turn the intensity up on occasion as well obviously, but I've seen the results when people ONLY spar at high intensity. Not only is there a steeper learning curve, you see a lot of injury and burnout as well.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/15/09 11:14 AM
I think the problem with most WC schools is that either they never spar (the vast majority) or they spend too much time sparring (the small garage schools that treat WC like fight club). Either way, key skills are not being cultivated.
WC sparring is somewhat pointless IMO. WC emphasizes quick wins, or doing enough damage to make way for an escape from danger. A good WC sparring match (WC vs. WC) will generally last all of 3 seconds.
It is much more beneficial to spar against other styles as much as possible. It takes a lot of trial and error, but if your training partners are cool, they'll consent to help you out a little. At a certain point, getting out of the class setting to spar becomes vital, but until then just use mitts, bags, dummy and chi sao WITH real resistance.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/15/09 06:52 PM
I agree when WC put the gloves on it looses its egde and short rapid punches/strike are not as useful, What I saw was inital WC attacks either the stomp kickm or diving back fist returning elbow strike and or as stated chain punching. I did see what they seem to have been taught standing takedowns and continued GnP with a lack of G and more emphasis on pounding which is what WC and most striking arts do. Overall I see them using what they were taught.
Not and for an animal class, it ain't suppose to look pretty. Training like that sometimes is not a bad thing.
But I will add that a person with good Boxing skills or good glove punching skills would have dropped most of them with combinations and foot movement. Granted fighting out of a corner is mostly straight line in and our movement but they were not in a corner. And they didn't apply any angles or circuling which always help to avoid/setup straight line attacks.
Not bad for an animal class. I agree sparring outside of the system would be eye raising with pros and cons.
Posted by: futsaowingchun
Re: Hard wing chun sparring/fighting - 04/26/09 02:11 PM
I like to have my students do what I call micro- sparring. Where a short series of movements around 5-10 fast with power and control then start from the begining again.This prevents injury and getting out of hand and the technques don't get to sloppy. And it's not to competitive compared to full out sparring. There is no winners or losers just two guys working off each other