Wing Chun
Hey guys, im new to this site. Im currently doing my diploma in wing chun coaching at Master Jim Fung's International Wing Chun Academy. I've done 13 years of Shaolin Kung Fu (animal styles and weapons) prior to this. Im finding now that the basic principle of relaxation and forward focus is the key to being successful in any martial art. Just wondering if anyone can comment on this or is anyone else studying wing chun or has studied. Thanks.
Posted by: Taison
Re: Wing Chun - 12/15/05 10:43 PM
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Just wondering if anyone can comment on this or is anyone else studying wing chun or has studied.
Excuse me, but I don't really understand your question. . What do you want me to comment on? If it's Wing Chun, I rather not do any negative comment or I may have a few people running me over. 
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basic principle of relaxation and forward focus is the key to being successful in any martial art.
I don't know, I think I agree with you there. But personally, I'm not a master at relaxation.
-Taison out
Haha, thats ok. My question is has anyone else used these principles in their art? If so how effective have they found them to be?(The principles of relaxation and forward focus that is).
Posted by: Ayub
Re: Wing Chun - 12/16/05 07:26 AM
I think you should start by expaining EXACTLY what you mean by relaxation and forward focus, as the interpretation I have from the phrase is common to pretty much all martial arts and boxing too. In the case of punching, that would be keeping your arm relaxed and driving through your target (in the forward direction
). which is generally prescribed in all fighting arts.
Ayub
Posted by: JohnL
Re: Wing Chun - 12/16/05 08:44 AM
I don't think it's as complex and in-depth a question as people are making out. Hey, maybe I'm just a simple guy!
Relaxation - Yes.
Forward Focus - Only if the opponent is in front of you.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Wing Chun - 12/16/05 08:52 AM
I dont mean to be rude but if you have done 13 years of kung fu you should have realized that a long time ago.
I agree that relaxation is key to any martial art, or any sport for that matter. Any effective physical movement in any sport has to be performed in a relaxed manner with tention at the right time in the right place, that is how you become fluid and powerful.
As for the forward focus, it depends. I agree with JohnL, sometimes you have to give forward focus, but if you are meeting force, I would not recomend a 'head on' strategy, rather circular focus. Sometimes you have to use angles, sometimes you have to absord and sometimes you have to move forward.
I think what you mean by forward focus is the root or the stance if you like. I agree that the root should not be liable to destabilization and therefore balance should be maintained, opposed to the force being given.
Lol, Im not offended. What I've discovered just recently, is that when I apply the roots of wing chun to any other form I practice whether it be choy li fut, animal styles, boxing, muay thai or even just basic exercise and movement, is that I become more perceptive.
One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there. So I asked what he means. I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement. But I touched his shoulder, bicep, chest and back and the muscles werent tense. I was surprised. He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.
So now when I go back to practice my previous stuff, I apply this same principle and find that the techniques are 10 times more powerful, and I dont feel like a tense meathead. I feel this is why bruce lee did so well in every other art he studied. Im not saying wing chun is the best art, but definitely one of the most scientific approaches to fighting that helps lead us beyond it.
Feel free to comment. Thnx
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Wing Chun - 12/16/05 12:59 PM
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One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there. So I asked what he means. I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement. But I touched his shoulder, bicep, chest and back and the muscles werent tense. I was surprised. He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.
Hmm Sounds like Some Chi Kung "magic".. Relaxing is in every physical art. You move smooth and fast if you relax as much as possible.. but you MUST TENSE MUSCLES in order to pull or push your limbs. Everyone knows this idea, but most can't do it.
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So now when I go back to practice my previous stuff, I apply this same principle and find that the techniques are 10 times more powerful, and I dont feel like a tense meathead. I feel this is why bruce lee did so well in every other art he studied. Im not saying wing chun is the best art, but definitely one of the most scientific approaches to fighting that helps lead us beyond it.
Bruce Lee = Movie star.
How much tension do you really have? I have practiced with people who come from years of Martial Arts.. that are so tense even when they are just standing in place..
Wing Chun is just a name, don't read too much into it. Every Martial Art uses science, don't be fooled by the propaganda. The question is do you really know how and why your technique(ie relaxing) works and Can you use it? Science is a method.. you can apply it to anything. If you can prove you theory.. then you are doing ok.
JMO
Certain things take time. I am no master so I will say yes, the level of tension I carry is probably reasonably high.
Once I was doing astral projection. The method I was using for it involved visualisation and feeling your body with awareness of sensations. I was visualising climbing a ladder and I felt like I was lifting out of my body - I thought it was actually working. But when I opened my eyes, my arms were out in front of me performing the motion of climbing a ladder and suddenly I could feel the muscluar tension. From this I understand what is meant by controlling your body with your mind. However, this is much harder to do when standing up practicing the sil num tau form. And to be able to use this in a fight take years of practice to become good, but to master it takes a lifetime.
Relaxation works because no energy is absorbed by tensing the muscles. All the energy delivered into strikes moves 'through' the target. If it is possible to become 100% relaxed whilst moving, then 100% of your energy can be delivered 'through' the target. If you punch a well structured tree nothing will happen except a sore fist and the bounce-back effect. Thats because the tree isn't tense, it is just well structured and can absorb your force. But if you were to hit the tree with a stronger structure, say a demolition ball, then the trees structure would collapse. Both the tree and the demolition ball have structure, however the ball has a stronger structure. What we're taught to do in WC is move our bodies as one unit to maintain the strongest possible structure behind our hits. And to keep the structure strong, all the parts must be relaxed in their joints. This sounds much easier than it is to do.
When I apply this to choy li fut especially, the destruction that can be caused is phenomenal. It could completely destroy wing chun. And I'm sure if you can apply this method to ANY other art, then the power generation would be much higher. I emphasise choy li fut the most because it is swinging arms. Just like swinging an iron ball on a chain, similar to the demolition ball. It destroys everything. Obviously other principles can counter things, but this is the basic idea.
On another note, thanks for the input and always feel free to write whatever you want. Your forcing me to understand these things and I'm learning a lot just by writing about them, so once again, thanks.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Wing Chun - 12/17/05 01:43 PM
To be fair, I have to say that although in all martial arts to perform well and to get power and fluidity you need relaxation. But correct me if I m wrong but I dont know many MAs appart from WC that actually train specifically to contract and relax. There is a very big emphasis in WC to train how the strike is delivered, there is a lot of emphasis on how the hit is supposed to feel.
From what I know, an art like shotokan doesnt do this. Of course the better you become the more relaxed you are anyway and the more aware you are about how things should feel in order to deliver maximum power/ minimum commitment but they dont really train for it. (Do they?)
Yes every art uses science, but not every art applies all aspects into drills, it just so happens that WC drills you relly hard in this area.
My two yen.
P.S. Although I hate all the Bruce Lee schizophrenia I have to say that the man was not just a movie star, he was a great fighter. In fact probably better fighter than actor!
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Wing Chun - 12/17/05 05:14 PM
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But correct me if I m wrong but I don't know many MAs apart from WC that actually train specifically to contract and relax. There is a very big emphasis in WC to train how the strike is delivered, there is a lot of emphasis on how the hit is supposed to feel.
Maybe as whole a Style will not, but Good fighters will start to understand this idea. Its just simple body mechanics. you are bound to figure it out eventually. Relaxing means = faster, fluid movement. Maybe you are familiar with a school of Wing Chun that focuses on how a hit feels ( I could make a joke..). I don't really think I have been told to think about how my punches feel. I am normally told to pull this part of the body or push here ect..
Maybe you are talking about Chi Sao with the idea of always relaxing? Chi Sao can have many ideas.. and forcing your self to relax is a idea.
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P.S. Although I hate all the Bruce Lee schizophrenia I have to say that the man was not just a movie star, he was a great fighter. In fact probably better fighter than actor!
I used to think the same too.. but How many fights have I seen him fight in? Really what do I know about his MA abilities? He is just a actor who studied MA. He looks good, makes good poses.. maybe a good fighter.. maybe not. NO PROOF. I have yet to see anyone fight with JKD.. so I can't comment on its ability. I haveread many JKD books and watched many JKD videos prior to starting Wing Chun. I notice that it doesn't have a LARGE portion of Wing Chun. Why?
I have read that he took the MOST EFFECTIVE PARTS.. ok thats one persons opinion. Its not my opinion because the most effective stuff I don't see in JKD. JMO
I asked my Sifu why his styles differers so much from us, and were are all the rest of our techniques. He didn't finish learning the whole style... Why not? He had the money to go back and learn the rest. His teacher (I think Wong Shun Leung) was supposed to be a good fighter.. so whats the deal? It leads me to believe that mostly Bruce Lee's martial abilities are hype. The idea of mixing styles is great, but maybe Bruce is just a normal person. Stop putting him on this pistole he didn't earn. Sure I love the movies.. but they are just movies.
In my life I have met some amazing Wing Chun Fighters from that period.. so if he was a good fighter.. is he that special? Just me rambling again..
I gotta say I agree with monji. For years and years I've read and studied possibly everything on bruce lee. All the books, movies, mags, commentaries, documentaries, all that stuff...anyway, I have respect for the mans self discipline and achievments, but he was obsessed with creating a strong ego! He once even said, "One day my name will become a household item!" (just like coke). Fair enough that's his choice, but that statement just shows an inferiority complex, and that's why he brought MA into movies. Personally, I feel that if he didnt have this inferiority complex then he never would have contributed so much to the world. So whether it's good or bad, who knows
.
When I was in grade 1, most of the lessons consisted of just punching. A LOT of emphasis is placed on how the strike is delivered, a heavy shoulder, straight spine, driving through with the elbow etc. In fact we still practice punching and continuous punching even now. It never really stops because it's so important to develop the correct shape, movement, structure and relaxation.
Does anyone else think that the movements in single sticking hands should be different? I personally dont like using the palm strike after the tan sau. It tenses up my shoulder too much.
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Wing Chun - 12/17/05 07:46 PM
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Does anyone else think that the movements in single sticking hands should be different? I personally dont like using the palm strike after the tan sau. It tenses up my shoulder too much.
Whats wrong with a palm strike? Are you doing the strike correctly?? When you have you Tan sao and he has his fook Sao.. both should be pushing forward not down or back. They will cancel each other. The only way to hit the person (if he has a good fook sao) is to lift slitly with the elbow then push forward. Your shoulder has to tense a little, but not that much. I have been using palm and ridge hand strikes more and more..
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Wing Chun - 12/17/05 08:09 PM
I didnt say he was the best fighter or the only fighter. I just dont think credit should be taken away from his abilities because he was in movies. There is no video'd proof of him winning fights but there are a lot of documented incidents in his life.
As for him taking what he saw as the most effective parts of wing chun, that is what he said as well, he never claimed I dont think that he created a superior MA. In anycase I think we agree.
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When you have you Tan sao and he has his fook Sao.. both should be pushing forward not down or back.
How would that work? Your fook sau is behind the tan sau.
Actually this new guy who came from another school and obviously different style, whenever he went from fook to tan he would move his tan forward, and I gotta say it made no sense to me and felt pretty awkward. Could you tell me why?
As for the palm, I find it a lot easier to do most things with open palm as the rest of the techniques tend to be that way. For example I would probably find it easier to collapse into a bong sau from a palm strike than a punch.
Yeah, I find it hard to keep that constant forward focus/force on, because its all a mental thing and the concentration is hard to develop. When doing the fook sau movements its much easier to relax because your resting but still focused forward from the opponents wrist. Maybe I gotta still learn to hold my arm out with my mind rather than muscles. Any tips for keeping the shoulder in the socket and relaxed?
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Wing Chun - 12/18/05 12:15 AM
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I didn't say he was the best fighter or the only fighter. I just dont think credit should be taken away from his abilities because he was in movies.
I just get tired of Bruce lee.. maybe its just me. I get tired of allot of things quickly.. LOL
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How would that work? Your fook sau is behind the tan sau.
Actually this new guy who came from another school and obviously different style, whenever he went from fook to tan he would move his tan forward, and I gotta say it made no sense to me and felt pretty awkward. Could you tell me why?
Maybe you do chi-sao different.. but I don't think so. Fook sao is on the outside tan sao is on the inside. When you press your elbow in and push it forward (fook soa) you create a great deal of force forward. That combined with your hand somewhat controlling the tan sao. The tan sao is going forward with the elbow aswell but.. not pressed in so extreme. The fook sao's elbow allows it to protect against the forward motion of the tan sao. They cancel each other. -----> <-----
Its very hard to describe in words.. but its very obvious when you do it correctly. If you start to feel your shoulders hurting.. your not doing something correctly.
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Yeah, I find it hard to keep that constant forward focus/force on, because its all a mental thing and the concentration is hard to develop. When doing the fook sau movements its much easier to relax because your resting but still focused forward from the opponents wrist. Maybe I gotta still learn to hold my arm out with my mind rather than muscles. Any tips for keeping the shoulder in the socket and relaxed?
I think i follow you with the hole mind thing. Yah this is my problem as well. You have to teach yourself to do less. All you are doing is pushing with your elbow forward. Thats really it. If the other person was to let go quickly you should move forward NEVER ANYWERE ELSE. I realized this was one of the purposes of the First form. Learning to do 1 thing and nothing else. For example first part you do allot of fook sao pushing. Nothing should move but your hand being pushed by your elbow. Your body should not move... this is so hard. Some people do the form with too much force.. (JMO) Force is good .. but control is very important too. If for example you are using too much force and to stop being square in your shoulders.. you are using too much force.
These are all from my experience I don't want to sound like I am forcing ideas on you. Try them out maybe you will have another idea. Everyone has a different way of getting to the same place. Just make sure you really get to the goal.
This is just like being in class this discussion, only its net based lol
I've only been doing Wing Chun for about 3-4months now. So Im still trying to understand just how you move from the elbow. Everytime Im practicing the form, the fook sau and tau sau movements, my instructor comes and holds my wrist to feel if Im doing it right. And he's constantly telling me to just think of the shoulder joint rotating, as opposed to trying to push from the wrist. I find it hard to conceptualise it. Sometimes I can do it, but my shoulder ligament hurts as it rotates. My instructor tells me this is normal for everyone in their early stages and slowly it will fall into place naturally. Are there any stretches I can do for those tendons or ligaments or whatever they are in my shoulder?
Posted by: monji112000
Re: Wing Chun - 12/18/05 11:16 AM
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This is just like being in class this discussion, only its net based lol
I've only been doing Wing Chun for about 3-4months now. So Im still trying to understand just how you move from the elbow. Every time Im practicing the form, the fook sau and tau sau movements, my instructor comes and holds my wrist to feel if Im doing it right. And he's constantly telling me to just think of the shoulder joint rotating, as opposed to trying to push from the wrist. I find it hard to conceptualize it. Sometimes I can do it, but my shoulder ligament hurts as it rotates. My instructor tells me this is normal for everyone in their early stages and slowly it will fall into place naturally. Are there any stretches I can do for those tendons or ligaments or whatever they are in my shoulder?
I have always had some slight tightness(NEVER PAIN) when I do this .. but thats because I have my elbow so far in that I can't move it anymore inward. I have found that this is "my" ideal position. Don't do anything that hurts.. its your body telling you that somethings wrong.
I have some stretches for that area some people have shown me.. but its impossible to explain them here.. sorry 
go to the lib. I am sure you can find allot of good stuff.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Wing Chun - 12/18/05 09:40 PM
In the beginning I found that a lot of techniques in wing chun feel awkward but that should as your instructor said straighten itself out as your body becomes used to it.
Try this: get a friend to apply pressure towards your body on your elbow when you extend the fook sau in the first form, your wrist should be completely relaxed and only use your elbow.
Posted by: Natron
Re: Wing Chun - 12/20/05 11:36 AM
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One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there...I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement...He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.
1) Your muscles aren't filled with blood. They're filled with muscles cells, believe it or not.
2) You can't move your appendages without using muscles. Period.
At the risk of being a smart a**, maybe less astral projection and more biology.
Best of luck on your journey.
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One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there...I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement...He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.
1) Your muscles aren't filled with blood. They're filled with muscles cells, believe it or not.
2) You can't move your appendages without using muscles. Period.
At the risk of being a smart a**, maybe less astral projection and more biology.
Best of luck on your journey.
Or, the instructor may be talking about muscle memory in a really bad way... I agree with Natron, it doesn't seem like a very sound concept. We can augment our movements with Qi, but to hold aloft our limbs without muscles and with pure focus sounds more like psychokinesis or NTKO Than reality.
Obviously u gotta use muscle 2 move, I know that. It's the cause of movement I'm talkin about. Whether its conscious or unsconscious. Unconscious movement is average, conscious movement gives you control. To control your body you first have to become aware of it. The resulting effect is less strain more gain. Wing Chun is not a muscular meat headed sport, its a scientific approach to moving your body, giving direction to life. Anything that develops awareness is good for wing chun, even astral projection. If you could reduce wing chun to its root, it is awareness. So anything works.
Posted by: Natron
Re: Wing Chun - 12/22/05 10:17 AM
I do WC myself, I understand what you're getting at...it's pretty hard to stay loose when someone is more or less trying to drill you in the face the whole time
. And anything you can figure out for better structure is definitely going to be a big help as well. Just didn't want you wasting training time trying to do something impossible.
If you make some headway on that, please post so we can all benefit. Best of luck.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Wing Chun - 12/22/05 11:18 AM
I have respect for the mans self discipline and achievments, but he was obsessed with creating a strong ego! He once even said, "One day my name will become a household item!" (just like coke). Fair enough that's his choice, but that statement just shows an inferiority complex, and that's why he brought MA into movies.
Just a word on your statement of he had a inferiority complex. As a minority at that time he was a visionary and obviously had a strong ego, to have even thought he could challenge the powers that be. How many Chinese/Asian actors do we have even today that have made into Hollywood as a leading man without MA skills, their kinda paint in a corner? Not many maybe Sulo of Star Trek fame and even he wasn't the lead. Bruce's has body been laid to rest years ago, but his spirit lives on. He is a Icon just like Coke.
And the reason he brought MA to the movies. As for why Bruce even brought his version of MA to the movies, he brought some realism to MA pictures. I don't know if U remember the MA flims back in the 70-80s. The Chinese or MA flims industries period was based on legends and pure entertainment almost a Joke "The 5 fingers of Death" the hero or villan sliced 100 times and struck 500 times and he staggers back for more. How many remember the Chinese Connection rhk kick (I think) to the grion and eye gouge the guy seen no more. Bruce brought reality to the MA flim industry with some flash. Most people like his kicks, I always liked thoughs fast Wing Chun trained hands and his timing even in stunts you have to be good to pull off some that. I know it was just movies, but have you seen, The 5 fingers of death, ....
Ok back to Wing Chungs elements of success.
Haha, dont get me wrong, I love Bruce Lee man. He was the one who inspired me to train 8-9hrs a day everyday for 6 years straight b4 I started college. He is absolutely incredible. It's truly a waste that he died so early! My point was, that ego is a hindrance to complete inner success...coz there a lot of guys and girls I've met who are very good MA's, but they have no real inner depth or understanding about life in general and the higher purpose of MA training. From reading the book "Artist of Life" (a collection of Bruce Lee's uni papers and philosophies) I know he had a much deeper understanding of life than most.
Back to WC, I saw somewhere else a couple of days ago a post saying WC doesnt do a lot of ground work. I can't remember where I saw this, but anyhow, we do quite a lot of groundwork and kicking at my academy. Nothing is left out of our training, elementary wing chun kicks & punches, forms, blocks, grabs, knife attackers, more than 1 attacker, breaks, chi sau and all the drills, groundwork, internal work (more so from level 1 onwards), attacks from behind...there's so much more. Even I was surprised when I first started at how much my school covers!
i've practised Wing Chun for a while already. although i still consider myself a rookie, i noticed something while doing all the different pracises.
Always focous on the elbow, giving power into the fists or palm.
my sefu told me afterwards that's an apporpriate way to deliver punches via the middle line of the body.
Think about it, which delivers a more powerful attack , the elbow or the forearm (with the fist at the front )?
I usually relax my whole arm and drive the elbow forwards with my forearm lying horizontaly, That's how my chain punches go and found it pretty effective.
However, i could be wrong, so please correct me if i'm wrong.
Posted by: Yuzi
Re: Wing Chun - 01/19/06 05:09 PM
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One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there...I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement...He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.
1) Your muscles aren't filled with blood. They're filled with muscles cells, believe it or not.
2) You can't move your appendages without using muscles. Period.
At the risk of being a smart a**, maybe less astral projection and more biology.
Best of luck on your journey.
Sorry for interruption...I'm from Hong Kong and I have very limited english knowledge. I've been training from Grandmaster Chu Song Tin's Wing Chun for years. Chu Song Tin's helped Yip Man to teach all his students during his old age as well. Our linage in the Wing Chun fields is known to be very hard to deal with and even the other Yip Man's students don't like to play sticky hands with Chu because his hands are very heavy. Chu's is around 120-130lb, slim and skinny and there no chance that his hands can be heavy. But when people ask him how to do it, he just simply reply "just stand up straight, using no muscle, put down ur shoulder and relex." But these are just the surface descriptions of how to do it, ever since then ppl starting talking about it without knowing what is it.
2) You can't move your appendages without using muscles.Period.
Believe it or not, we really don't use the forarm muscles but we use out joints, spine and mind instead.
For example: If there is a stronger and heavier guy pushing you and you have to keep balance and not fall back. What you would do is to push back to maintain balance right? But what if he is more muscluar than u and heavier than u? You still get push back. But we wont be able to get pushed away even I am 130lb and the opponent is 200lb, because we know how to connect our joints, abandon the muscle and turn the body into 1 piece instead or 5 pieces(head,2 hands,2legs).So the situation will be like the 200lb guy is pushing a iron wall so all his energy will transfer into the ground instead of you. To make it simple, you just imagine yourself as a conductor and when the lightning hits you, it transfer into the ground. To get this miracle done, you but have to abandon the usage and habbit of the muscle on ur forarms, and shoulders. But this is diffcult beacse you are born to use the forearm to pick up objects.
here is an article then Chu's wrote:
Click here to read
At the end of the video you will see how it's done.
Download here
As a reminder, Chu's is 73 yrs old
Also I dont's understand why people keeping say Wing Chun got no strength and they only have speed... or they hvn't seen any Wing Chun that has internal work out like us in HK. Chu's style Wing Chun is hard to deal against even you mastered you techniques beacuse techniques are useless without real power. During the sticky hand pratice, nobody can roll up Chu's hand no matter how muscular you are. It feels like you are lifting up 100lb object. This is what I'm talknig about puting you body weight out.
Thank you for reading this post, I hope it helps people to understand the real Wing Chun instead of the external movements only.
Posted by: DummyP
Re: Wing Chun - 02/02/06 11:06 AM
Hi there,
its_only_a_name about your name: names are useful for reference in forum conversation.
about your wing chun: It's the same old story, but even the best wing chun teachers are always emphasising the importance of relaxation.
...of course, being relaxed and forwarding is useless unless you've trained the hand techniques well
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Wing Chun Kung Fu (from a beginners perspective)