Knees in or out for horse stance?

Posted by: ShaolinNinja

Knees in or out for horse stance? - 11/07/05 07:15 PM

Most kung fu systems involve a horse stance where the feet are spread and pointed forward, the back straight and the knees pushed outwards towards the toes. Wuzuquan, however (and maybe some other systems, I don't know), uses a different varient where the knees are pushed together so "it's like you're holding a basketball between your knees and a pencil between your buttocks."

What's the idea of pushing the knees in instead of out? Does it target different muscles? Does it reduce stress on the knees?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 11/07/05 10:15 PM

probably depends on application. the knees together could be for simultaneous protection while creating a 'rooting' effect to hold ground. The open stance can be utilized nicely for throws (or to prevent from being thrown) and sinking power...not necessarily in that order

practice both. then, whichever situation you find yourself in...take your pick.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 11/07/05 10:18 PM


It just so happened I've done both. Knees out in my boyhood days and knees in much older.

The different approaches taken is due to a fundamental difference in combat-technique philosophy.

The knees out is more suitable and less clumsy when the combat techniques involve 'bigger / wider longer' hand and leg movements and less static (i.e. some jumping etc.)

The knee in can be seen mostly in the arts from Fukien Province, where as you mentioned Wuzuguan (5 Ancestors) and other karate progenies came from. These arts have predominantly close range, short striking movements and the knee in stance is better at generating enough power for this kind of in-fighting techniques -- hence the pigeon-toed stance for the sanchin kata in karate and Wuzuguan. Another well known short-range system that adopts the knee in is of course Wing Chun.

The most representatives of the knee out system with long range, open, large movements are Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar and to do these large, open, hand swinging movements, the knee out is better for power generation.
Posted by: To_cool_moon332

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/08/05 04:16 PM

HI your knees would be like out and straight and if you were taking basic clases of this stuff like tae kwon do or white crane or white tiger kung-fu you would know this stuff and it would be pointing out straight like someone sayd in the post ubove. Your welcome and im just helping out
Posted by: Taison

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/08/05 10:31 PM

Well being a former Shuai Jiao practitioner, I did knees out cuz it helped to generate that space where we can push ourself up on throws [like the hip throw, we bend down on our knees and then push up hip onto their addomen]. It also helps when we are being tackled, thus going into the horsestance will lower the centre of gravity and you won't fall over [theory].

As for knees in I've only experienced in Karate, especially the Sanchin Dachi. It helps protecting the groin area because you're twisting your knees inward, thus sending the "sack" into the body.

Now the karate term for these two movements, if I recall right, is Kiba Dachi [Horsestance] and Sanchin Dachi[Pigeon toed-stance].

-Taison out
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/08/05 10:58 PM

Butterfly, Leo & Taison, Long Live S.E.A.?

Its a Zoo.

Butterfly = Insect

Leo = Mammal

Taison = Jungle Man?

Yep, we'er gonna conquer the world!!!!
Posted by: Taison

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/08/05 11:26 PM

Quote:

Butterfly, Leo & Taison, Long Live S.E.A.?

Its a Zoo.

Butterfly = Insect

Leo = Mammal

Taison = Jungle Man?

Yep, we'er gonna conquer the world!!!!




LOL, as said before, This is insane. . .
I looked on the FA map, and saw that there's only 3 people in Asia, while the rest is in the US. Assuming Leo is of Hokkien ancestry, and you're ethnic Chinese. We got like 3 chinese dudes here. My grandma is of Teo Chow, Tae Jiew, whatever you call it [Chao Zhou city, Canton province] so that makes me 1/3 Chinese.

Indeed, it's a zoo.

-Taison out
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/09/05 08:14 AM

From what I have gathered at this point, the knee position will be dictated by the position of the foot. In dynamic stances it is always a good idea to have the knee and the toes pointing in the same direction. This lessens the amount of torque being placed on the knee joint, and lessens the chance you will have knee damage.
Posted by: monji112000

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/10/05 01:29 PM

The knee should point to the direction that you are attacking. Since you would prob be turning into another stance I would try to keep the knees in as much as possible.

If you are using the traditional horse then look at
http://www.shaolinwolf.com/morechitrainharder/stances1.htm
He explains the idea of linking each part of the process of generating power. Most people make the mistake of not turning the feet.. it couses as small loss of power but also allot of stress on the knees. Even boxers follow this princ.

In WC we follow this idea strictly. Its a Night and day thing try testing it.. you will see that same results.
Posted by: goedikey

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/10/05 01:39 PM

I recently have been taught that one great application of the horse stance was to sit on a opponents leg to break it. It was demonstrates to me during close quarters where the opponent was trying to sweep. That was VERY effective.
Posted by: Anonymous

Post deleted by oldman - 12/12/05 02:41 AM

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/12/05 12:55 PM

That stance is used in AKK, but as part of a takedown/kneebreak. Not associated with women.
Posted by: monji112000

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/12/05 01:26 PM

Quote:

Out of curiosity. Are the arts with knees in associated with women? Like Wing Chun?




In reference to Wing Chun, its the same horse. The purpose of a pushed in knee is becouse they are "taking short-cutts". Trad. Kung Fu moves from Horse to bow stances to produce power. Ip Man figured that you could skip some steps.
Posted by: Anonymous

Post deleted by oldman - 12/14/05 09:12 PM

Posted by: Dudley32

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/14/05 09:19 PM

Quote:

HI your knees would be like out and straight and if you were taking basic clases of this stuff like tae kwon do or white crane or white tiger kung-fu you would know this stuff and it would be pointing out straight like someone sayd in the post ubove. Your welcome and im just helping out




Wow, That looked like a big blur.

Im trying to discern what you are attempting to say. Are you saying that white crane, Taekwondo, and White Tiger (and what in the world is white tiger, ive heard of tiger but not white tiger) have weak horse stances and more advanced arts (if their is such thing as advanced and non-advanced arts) are better by putting their knees in?

Maybe Im just stupid but could you please explain this response.
Ty

Matt
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/14/05 10:13 PM

Make that 4...

I thought the distinction was North and South and how to generate power for different fighting ranges?
Posted by: monji112000

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/14/05 10:26 PM

Quote:

I would probably disagree on the stated reason for the purpose.

I believe it has more to do with training different sets of muscles and the differences between men and women.




Its ok to disagree, but I believe from my personal experience that they are the same. Maybe other styles that use a knee in horse other than Wing Chun are different. I have over 7 years experience with Northern and Southern Kung Fu before looking at Wing Chun. I have had friends in Karate, Western Boxing and Bjj.

I have found that all ( that I have analyzed) styles in the end generate power in a similar way.

JMO

its fine to disagree...
Posted by: Taison

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/15/05 01:17 AM

You Chinese?

Seems another member joined the trio. . What do you call that? Quadraple?

Back to topic, no matter in what direction your knee is bent towards remember this, out means lower centre of gravity for anti-takedown. In means higher centre of gravity, good blocking position? For takedowns, I suggest you just fall on top of the guy, for blocking don't, evade is better and it doesn't hurt.

-Taison out
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? - 12/15/05 06:23 AM

A quartet.