HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM

Posted by: MAGr

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/09/05 09:26 AM

yes, we are talking about the same thing.
I would agree with yoy, there have been very few situations where I would think the gan sau block would be effective. The more deflective version that you are talking about makes more sense. The blocks that I would use for body shots would be jum sau, low bong sau and possibly low pak sau. The only time that I have used the gan sau is for a roundhouse kick in combination with tan sau.
If you dont know it, its from the wooden dummy form and you do a gan sau with the left and a tan with the right simulteneously with a left facing turning stance to block a roundhouse kick from the left. I think that is one of the best blocks I have seen for a roundhouse kick

Posted by: MattJ

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/09/05 12:05 PM

Quote by Mannie -

Quote:

This is not a difficult question. Or maybe it is.

Why don't you tell us how YOU test YOUR system.

Posted by: Mannie

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/09/05 09:12 PM

Hakarac Boxing test it system by constantly taking its students, techniques and mindset into uncontrolled zones.
Some of the previous sugestins mentioned are just some of the few.
We constantly take our students to sparr and compete with different schools from different styles. We take selected students to train with law enforcement and security personel.
We verbally attack them, surprise attack them and random weapon attack them.
Also:
1. 2 attacking 1
2. Environmental attack (No lights-Between furniture-loose gravel-etc..)
3. Multiple attacks
4. 75% (wear an eye patch-stone in your shoe-hold onto a child-etc...)
5. Chaos (defend yourself by getting someone to attack you without technique)
And the list goes on and on.
Take yourselves outside "if he does this i will do that"

Posted by: MattJ

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/09/05 10:21 PM

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Those are some good ideas, Mannie. I have advocated using different scenarios for training like that for a while now.

I do like the stone-in-the-shoe, etc ideas. Good way to really work an imbalanced situation.

Posted by: Mannie

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/10/05 09:40 PM

Hi MattJ,
Do you have any other different scenarious that you know off and dont mind sharing so i can try out.

Thanks,
Mannie de Matos
Hakarac Boxing

Posted by: ta_kuan_dao

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/10/05 09:59 PM

sorry i guess i have to apologize for my response. it was just that one of ur replies sounded pretty arrogant that i got angry. And u won't like me when i'm angry.
*sound of muscles growing, clothes ripping, skin turning green, and "Arrrrggggghhhhhh!"*

Just moderate ur posts in the future, be more polite. humility is really a virtue and WILL get u far in life.

Posted by: JonRobbie

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/15/05 06:17 AM

Without a doubt, best way to test your system against others would be to enter and participate in full or semi contact tournaments, sure there are rules to abide by but i would imagine it gives you a good idea

Posted by: MAGr

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/15/05 06:33 AM

Yes I agree, that entering tournaments with people you have never met and styles you have never gone against is probably the best way to test your system (barring starting fights on the street). I want to start entering tournaments, but I want to go watch first and then see how it is, scope it out, act like a pussy for a bit and then finally enter next season. I need to find an annual tournament in london or the surrounding area first, that is open to all styles and has rules that I like, i.e. not too many.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/15/05 04:19 PM

I think that tournament test techniques taught and helps in delivery of techniques under rules. A lot of stylist (Aikido people I know not picking just true in this case) that don't fight tournaments look and imagine what they could or would do if fighting. All I can say is "thinking about it is different then do it or being there".

Some of these same people join our animal classes. Though condifdent they are ripped off their feet and thrown in a corner by real attacks, because their timing and distance is off or they are not ready for the sudden vicousiness of an quesi-real attack. Some go away dishearten others revise and adapt and make their art work.

Magr U are right, except for entering real fights on the street or MMA competition Open tournaments are the closest thing to fighting and seeing anything thrown at you. Years ago (no pad then) I was hit in the throat by a old style Kempo guy, After I recovered I took it to him then. We shook hands afterwards, it never happened again, it one of my favor strikes now. It don't take much and you can't breath

.

Tournaments are fun and you meet a lot of swell people. I'm betting on you, like the Joker said in Batman 1 " Wait till they get a load of You". Give them hell, and have alot of fun!!!

Posted by: MAGr

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/15/05 04:35 PM

you were hit in the throat and he was not disqualified??
And now you hit people in the throat and you are not disqualified/banned from your school??
Come one man, smells like a porky to me.
Do you mean neck by any chance?
Big difference between neck and throat.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/15/05 05:09 PM

He hit me below the adam apple just above the trechea, I dropped to one knee coughing and holding my THroat.
I hit people in the street in the thorat he proved that a tap will work, I hit harder then a tap. Back then you could take some of this straight to the street. I think he got a warning.

Back then you got a warning if you knocked the guy out and didn't bring blood, if he ran into the technique you got a point, when he woke up. Some open tourney you bust a guys grion cup you get a point, twice they asked you to pull and gave a warning. It was closer to real Martial arts back then. No joke, mediocre MA fighters looked like Hockey player back then. Back Then not now, they look like Movies stars now hair and make up

.

Its not like that now its padded and it just a hard fun game of tag, don't take it too serious. Now you can still get hurt if you are careless but if you are good and the competition is good the most you will get is sore ribs or briused check bone. Its all fun at now. At 3rd kyu & up theres light contact to the open face, semi-heavy but controled to the padded helmet & body to a solid touch???

Its not like it use to be you had to stop the guy or you peed' blood or spit blood. Ole timers unite tell him like it was. Anyway its all fast fun now sorta, you can get hurt if you are careless.

You will do well U sound like the movie star type.

Posted by: MAGr

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/15/05 07:32 PM

Quote:

You will do well U sound like the movie star type

Hey man , thanks!
I always wanted to be a movie star, hell of a lot better than having two jobs and college at the same time.

I think all that 'real' martial arts has done something to your grammar.
I do martial arts for several reasons and yes self defence is one of them. But what is the point of learning to defend yourself by risking your health?
Maybe some people like it. Good for them and you and all the 'real' martial artists.

Part of the reason I do martial arts is that if I do get into a fight I wont have to pee blood. I dont see why looking for it makes you a better martial artist.
Makes you harder? I dont care how hard someone is, a throat strike is a throat strike, an eye gouge is an eye gouge, and if their knee is boken they wont be able to walk.

Quote:

Back then you got a warning if you knocked the guy out and didn't bring blood,

Oh yeah? Nowdays you win!
wait a minute! you win even if you DO bring blood!
Mate what are you talking about?

I would never endanger someone's life unless my life was in danger. That is not what a tournament is about.

So do you also practice neck snaps and elbow breaks??

I sincerely hope that I never have the misfortune of sparring with anyone as irresponsible as you sound.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/16/05 09:59 AM

You didn't read my entire reply,

Its not like that now its padded and it just a hard fun game of tag, don't take it too serious.

As for your statment... I sincerely hope that I never have the misfortune of sparring with anyone as irresponsible as you sound.

I have retired for tourney competition, the last time I competed in 2003, I broke a guys nose, aiming for the side of his helmet. He turned into a hook kick, instead of ducking. The guy shook my hand and wished me well and left to go to the hospital. Everybody agree it was not my fault.

I kinda thought it was, irresponcible no just getting Old. I use to be fast enough that he wouldn't have reacted until my foot was back on the ground. By the way I won that event knocked down two spunky competitors, ribs got bruised theirs and mines. I had fun but I can tell I'm losing it, I'm still not sharp enough to continue tourney semi contact sparring with other full contact training, I do.

As for explaining what I meant by Back Then, you'd have to have been there. It was from a different era, I see I can't explain it now to you and I won't try again. One of the reason I admire Old men like Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, Byong Yu, Joe Lewis, Joe Hayes, Mark Warren, Little JohnDavis and Benny Urquiez is they still got all their teeth, another inside joke, you'd have to have been there.
Never fought them they were some of my idols, I was probably 5th kyu then.

Have fun its a young mans Game. Fore give me for trying to take back in the past.

Posted by: ta_kuan_dao

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/16/05 07:11 PM

yeah i remember reading about the old school karate competitors like Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Benny Urquidez, Ron Van Clief, and Bill Wallace, and thnking that those were the great days of karate. Back then, ppl loved competing but also cared about reall fighting ability and techs. Unfortunately, now sport karate is ore about playing tag and sacrificing power for speed.
I bet u can tell i'm big-time exponent of full-contact, huh!

Posted by: mantis1997

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 09/17/05 02:43 AM

yeah but know a days people have real world jobs and families to come home to and explaining a broken nose to your employer or a broken knee etc is a little harder you have to think real world i mean we all have a living to make if you really want to prove your art you have to go out on your own and test it if that means taking out the local yocals or some bouncer then that is what it takes i have no need to test my own art it is there for when i need it to defend my woman or my child or my mother in other words just use your best discretion and dont go looking for trouble cause it will find you it always seems to find me.....

Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 10/06/05 07:46 AM

Quote:

Hi MattJ,
Do you have any other different scenarious that you know off and dont mind sharing so i can try out.

Thanks,
Mannie de Matos
Hakarac Boxing

Have you tried the situation where a frightened/hysterical wife/girlfriend is grabbing onto to your arms while you are trying to protect both of you? I have seen it happen more than once.

Scottie

Posted by: NottaMaster

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 10/20/05 06:20 AM

One thing I have enjoyed regarding testing our system is just hearing about what has happened to people out in the streets or even in practice. Wouldn't you say that it is nearly impossible to do "true reality" tests since many of our techniques can be very brutal, causing permanent damage or death. Even the UFC has 31 fouls that aren't allowed, so how can you test something that you can never really use outside a life-and-death situation?

Any interesting stories that either affirmed or disproved techniques in practice? One other thing I would be curious to hear is if anybody had legal troubles (or close calls) due to somebody suggesting excessive force when it was self-defence. (Perhaps both those are for another thread...sorry.) :-)

Posted by: AF_Sting

Kung Fu is a way of life...isn't life the test? - 11/02/05 12:12 AM

We practice light sparring, do speed/strength drills, conditioning exercises and work on awareness. Sometimes we go with heavier contact, but not many of us can afford to be injured (the whole military readiness thing). IMHO, if anyone is doing full tilt contact all the time, they are either talented to an extreme or very sore. My idea of training is building my body and keeping it as conditioned and whole as possible. The rarity of actual combat, coupled with the even greater odds of fighting hand-to-hand with a skilled opponent make hardcore training less of a priority for me. Please understand that I don’t fault anyone for wanting to push their limits or test their skill, I’m just not there anymore. I have enough humility to know I’m not the best in the world and enough experience to know that I can handle most situations. Do I really need to thrown a stone in my shoe to adapt to it if that situation occurs? Do I really need to break my leg to know what types of limitations I’ll have? I adapt regardless of my environment, which is one of the beauties of kung fu (at least the system I study). If you train your body and mind, the venue does not matter.

-Sting

Posted by: kronin

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 12/22/05 01:21 PM

Quote:

Hi everyone,

How do you test if your system is effective as a self defense art.
And i dont mean against your own system of techniques.
And i also dont mean in a controlled or passive way.
How do you test it and know do you know it works.

Mannie de Matos
Hakarac Boxing

There is something they discuss in Black Belt magazine all the time that they call Adrenal Training or something like that, where the instructor wears thick pads all over his body and attacks you. You learn to defend yourself at full contact. That´s the only way that I think you can really test the effectiveness of your art. Another way that my instructor experienced while in the Philipines was to go to a bad neighborhood bar with the instructor and get in a fight. In the Philipines they had martial law, so you weren´t likely to get shot. Don´t try that in other places or you might, or end up in jail. That is a very dangerous way that I wouldn´t suggest though.

Posted by: kronin

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 12/22/05 01:25 PM

When I used to practice a more combat oriented form we would practice doing drills over and over and over again so that everything became automatic. We did very little sparring. Now I do some of the internal work that approximates the adreneline rush that you would get when being attacked. Zhang Zang (Standing like a tree postures)is very good for that. It looks like you aren´t doing anything from the outside, but it is one of the most difficult forms of Chi Kung that exists.

Posted by: musicalmike235

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/02/07 08:41 PM

Hmm, whats that concept I have heard so much about? Oh yeah, its called Mixed Martial Arts Tournaments.

Posted by: jpoor

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/03/07 08:29 PM

Quote:

Hmm, whats that concept I have heard so much about? Oh yeah, its called Mixed Martial Arts Tournaments.

That would not answer two of the points from the OP:

Quote:

How do you test if your system is effective as a self defense art.

(the key being self defense, NOT competition).

Quote:

And i also dont mean in a controlled or passive way.

(MMA _is_ controlled, whether we admit it or not).

Posted by: musicalmike235

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/03/07 08:33 PM

Even though MMA is competition in a controlled environment, it is close enough to a real fight where it still makes a great test bed. Let me ask you this, would you really honestly believe that an MMA fighter would be unable to defend himself out on the streets?

Posted by: MattJ

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/03/07 08:37 PM

Quote:

(MMA _is_ controlled, whether we admit it or not).

Controlled? Certainly. All training, scenario based or not, must be controlled to avoid injury to the practitioners. Otherwise we are fighting for real, not training.

There is nothing saying you can't add multiple opponents or weapons, surprise attacks, etc, to MMA style training. Another question may be, "What is better than MMA training for testing your system?"

I haven't seen anything better. But I am interested to hear other ideas.

Posted by: jpoor

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/03/07 08:39 PM

They would probably be better equipped than the average Joe, but may not be as well equipped as someone who has trained specifically (and properly) for combative self defense.

I could say the same for quite a few hockey player, rugby players, etc.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/04/07 12:26 AM

Theres no way to really test your system thats legal. And really just because everybody in your class got into a real fight and kicked butt don't mean you will.

The only thing you can do as mentioned is do reality based training, scenarios, multiples and range work. Train in street clothes with the shoes you usually wear. Be able to modify your methods in order to survive. And have a planned escape route.

Like I mentioned you can be the best tourney fighter and do great in class, but when you are faced with someone viciously saying and wanting to hurt you. You don't know, some people mentally freeze other people trainng kicking in. Mentally you have to forced yourself in survival mode, its strongest primal urge we have, the will to survive, let it out.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/04/07 12:31 AM

Quote:

......We weren't talking about training in this instance. We were talking about competitions. By controlled, I meant there are rules.

There are ALWAYS rules. Everywhere you train there are rules.

Quote:

In SD _training_ or _testing_ of the system's effectiveness, there shouldn't be rules other than don't injure your partner.

Then that's is more rules restrictive than in an MMA competition, correct?

-John

Posted by: NewJitsu

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/04/07 07:17 AM

If you're concerned how effective your own art is and your proficiency in it, address your classes and your fear of fighting. Some people would advocate competition (and then you naturally open up the realism / rules / sparring / UFC debate that seemingly rages on most threads. Others I know attcaked their questions head-on and applied for Door work. Starting at Universities and working their way up to bars, clubs and so on.

If you spend an unhealthy amount of time wondering about the real effectiveness of your art, then choose one of the two, I reckon. Or just stop worrying and concentrate on training and hope you never have to use it for real.

Posted by: jpoor

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/04/07 09:23 AM

Not really. The rules in place in MMA are there specifically to prevent injury as well as possible.

What I mean as far as SD testing is that techniques should not be limited. That said, we have to know that you can't really knife hand someone in the throat or gouge out their eyes. You can go full force on other techniques and then "pull" on the ones that are really dangerous. It ain't perfect for sure.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/04/07 09:48 AM

Quote:

Not really. The rules in place in MMA are there specifically to prevent injury as well as possible.

So you're telling me that people are injured right and left in your training for SD?

I don't think you're seeing my point. If you're not getting injured at ALL in training, how can you honestly say that what you're doing is more "real" than what occurs within an MMA match?

Quote:

What I mean as far as SD testing is that techniques should not be limited.

But they ARE limited! They're limited in how you use them. Thus is my point.

Quote:

That said, we have to know that you can't really knife hand someone in the throat or gouge out their eyes.

Bingo!

Quote:

You can go full force on other techniques and then "pull" on the ones that are really dangerous. It ain't perfect for sure.

Examples of which are?

What is anymore perfect than full resistance from those you're training against?

-John

Posted by: jpoor

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/04/07 10:02 AM

Quote:

So you're telling me that people are injured right and left in your training for SD?

Nope, not at all what I'm saying. I think we're actually agreeing on things, just stating them a bit differently.

Quote:

I don't think you're seeing my point. If you're not getting injured at ALL in training, how can you honestly say that what you're doing is more "real" than what occurs within an MMA match?

Actually, I am seeing the point. MMA a may be a good way to test _parts_ of a system. Just as I've mentioned before though, the focus is different than in a true SD situation. I'm also not saying that one is more real than the other.
While MMA may be the best we have at the moment for SD training/evaluation in some people's minds, I don't think it is a _good_ way. The focus is not there.

Quote:

What I mean as far as SD testing is that techniques should not be limited.

Quote:

But they ARE limited! They're limited in how you use them. Thus is my point.

You're right, the how (to what degree) is limited, but the what (which techniques used) shouldn't be.

Quote:

That said, we have to know that you can't really knife hand someone in the throat or gouge out their eyes.

Bingo!

Quote:

You can go full force on other techniques and then "pull" on the ones that are really dangerous. It ain't perfect for sure.

Quote:

Examples of which are?

Hmm, what about, a wrist lock or other throw that puts the attacker on the ground followed by head stomp. You go all out on the off balancing and throw, but stomp the floor next to the head, or pull the technique for light contact. Again, it ain't perfect.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the red-man suit, high gear suit, etc used a lot more often. With proper protection and some imagination, you can even do eye gouges and testicle squeeze/yank etc.

What is anymore perfect than full resistance from those you're training against?

-John

Posted by: groundfighter

Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM - 07/04/07 11:46 AM

Any training is done in a controlled environment. Even your system has controls. There are no uncontrolled zones. If there were your sensei would have been sued long ago for poked out eyes and crushed larynxes. lol Scenario training is good if you are training for that sort of thing. I am a big fan of open sparring against students of lower/ equal/ and higher skill levels. It prepares you for what you train for, fighting. It is the basis of all scenario training IMO. Lights off, rock in shoe, one arm behind back, one man in wheelchair, 17 men on one, etc are good for the rare class to give you an idea of what difficulties you may face but I feel strongly (unless someone sucessfully convinces me otherwise) that one on one sparring is the truest test outside just fighting in the street. Everything else is merely a difficulty to be overcome using ingenuity and mental toughness (not so much multiple attackers but if you face more than two, you are in big trouble no matter the system lol)
J

HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM