Posted by: Fangshendo
Fighting - 06/25/05 10:54 PM
When you fight are there rules,or do you fight for your life?
Fighting
Posted by: Rico
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 01:13 AM
You mean on the street? always for your life but I still wont strike someone in the throat if they just push me for example.
Posted by: Neb
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 02:21 AM
take a look at this Shaolin Edict
run before u fight,
fight before u injure,
injure before u maim,
maim before u kill
I think that this is a pretty good idea to follow, however if I was in situation were they would be miluiple opponants, I would maim, rather than injure, and if it was a situatopn where they had weapons (the most common are baseball bats and knives) I would kill. basically u wantto use an equal amount of force.
run before u fight,
fight before u injure,
injure before u maim,
maim before u kill
I think that this is a pretty good idea to follow, however if I was in situation were they would be miluiple opponants, I would maim, rather than injure, and if it was a situatopn where they had weapons (the most common are baseball bats and knives) I would kill. basically u wantto use an equal amount of force.
Posted by: Ubermint
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 04:25 AM
I doubt the ability of any of you people to "kill". Don't inflate yourselves through implication.
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
Play nice people.
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
Play nice people.
Posted by: laf7773
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 04:37 AM
Quote:
I doubt the ability of any of you people to "kill". Don't inflate yourselves through implication.
In your speech you imply "I can kill a man with my bare hands".
But I think you're BSing.
While i agree it's easier for many to talk than to do, i don't think you are in a position to tell anyone what they are or are not able to do. The simple truth is many people don't truly know what they are capable of doing until they are in that situation.
Your post is unnecessary, rude, condescending and arrogant. Don't inflate yourself through ignorance.
Posted by: Rico
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 05:15 AM
There have been plenty of cases of people dying in street fights to untrained fighters... this is why I hate people who go out and look for trouble on a Friday night after drinking.... they dont realise how serious things can get.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 09:35 AM
There are ALSO cases of people who have walked away from PLANE CRASHES. If they can do that, what is it that makes a human being think that he can just push a few of the right buttons and their opponent will just fall over dead?? People have, on a deep level, a need to believe in fantasy. It would be fairly important for us all to weed through all the myth and hype of "martial arts" as we go about our training.
It never surprises me that the people who hold notions of such martial arts "power", are the one's who rarely engage for real with resisting opponents.
-John
It never surprises me that the people who hold notions of such martial arts "power", are the one's who rarely engage for real with resisting opponents.
-John
Posted by: ta_kuan_dao
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 10:23 AM
What is so amazing about ppl killing ppl in street fights? If u ever seen a street fight, it is brutal. Beating someone's head over the concrete repeatedly for a while could possibly kill them. But i do agree that going out and and looking for trouble is a good way to get killed. When u say to kill, it should mean instead that u would kill if giving a chance in that confrontation. Of course, killing someone in a street fight is a good way to get landed in jail.lol
Posted by: laf7773
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 02:09 PM
That is the problem. Too many people don't have any understanding of things like pressure points and energy arts so to them it seems mystical. This ignorance is enhanced by the numerous frauds we have claiming to be able to knock people out without touching them and so forth. Pressure points do work but it is a FAR cry from pushing a few buttons and them falling over, that's only in the movies.
I wasn't referring to anyone using pressure points in my post. I was referring to ubermint's personal attack on other members. He has no way of knowing if any of the members of this forum would be capable of killing someone if they had to. There was no point to his post other than to start an argument.
I wasn't referring to anyone using pressure points in my post. I was referring to ubermint's personal attack on other members. He has no way of knowing if any of the members of this forum would be capable of killing someone if they had to. There was no point to his post other than to start an argument.
Posted by: DefenselessChild
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 02:40 PM
The ability to kill isn't that difficult is it? I mean...if you can disable or knock out ur opponent in any way, you can kill him can't you? I mean all you would have to do is keep beating on them for an extended period of time AFTER they could no longer fight...
not that anyone would do that of course...
not that anyone would do that of course...
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 02:50 PM
You can choke someone to death with your bear hands can you not? 
We do chop strikes and my partner and I also do iron palm training. Do you think that if I can break a slab of concrete on a bad day (with no preparation) I cant break someones adams apple? Gimme a break,
I am not saying that the opportunity will always arise for a throat strike, but it might and I can take it.
Why is it so hard to believe that you can kill someone with your hands? What about breaking someones neck is that also just in the movies?
Its not the deadly art that some people make it out to be but just because you dont train in moves that kill dont believe the hype. Some stuff is lethal and once someone is dizzy/dissorientated its not that hard to do.
I dont train to score points, I train to save my life, and although sports MAs can defend themselves and probably even win against non sports MAs and even be more effective, they dont train in those moves, so how can you judge if its not what you do?
We do chop strikes and my partner and I also do iron palm training. Do you think that if I can break a slab of concrete on a bad day (with no preparation) I cant break someones adams apple? Gimme a break,
I am not saying that the opportunity will always arise for a throat strike, but it might and I can take it.
Why is it so hard to believe that you can kill someone with your hands? What about breaking someones neck is that also just in the movies?
Its not the deadly art that some people make it out to be but just because you dont train in moves that kill dont believe the hype. Some stuff is lethal and once someone is dizzy/dissorientated its not that hard to do.
I dont train to score points, I train to save my life, and although sports MAs can defend themselves and probably even win against non sports MAs and even be more effective, they dont train in those moves, so how can you judge if its not what you do?
Posted by: trevek
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 04:42 PM
Technically, killing someone is pretty easy. Doing it accidentally is also pretty possible, especially if you get carried away. How many people really consider what they are doing when they have a fight and are scared or 'adrenalised'?
Doing it deliberately, now that is a different situation.
Doing it deliberately, now that is a different situation.
Posted by: Ubermint
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 06:30 PM
Quote:
You can choke someone to death with your bear hands can you not?
Sure. But it takes a minute or so.
Quote:
We do chop strikes and my partner and I also do iron palm training. Do you think that if I can break a slab of concrete on a bad day (with no preparation) I cant break someones adams apple?
I do. The lack of correlation between breaking construction materials and fighting an actual human being and the total failure of such people to actually win a fight is well documented.
Quote:
Why is it so hard to believe that you can kill someone with your hands?
Because, contrary to what your sensei has told you, human beings are not made of paper.
Quote:
I dont train to score points, I train to save my life, and although sports MAs can defend themselves and probably even win against non sports MAs and even be more effective, they dont train in those moves, so how can you judge if its not what you do?
Another fallacy. I don't need to have studied at a yellow bamboo academy to know it's BS.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 06:46 PM
It would take you two minutes to choke someone??
You are pretty crap mate!
Really? Its well documented, then please do show me the evidence. O throat strike is just as quick as a punch, and if you read m post rather than try to argue against it for the sake of it, you will find that I say that hits are always opportunistic and you cant tell if you will be able to do a throat strike, but you train in whatever you train, and I train in whatever I train, why is it so hard for you to comprehend that I can perform my techniques as well as you can?
I could say that contrary to what your sensei has told you, you are not as hard as you think! There are places called vital spots, which are far better documented then your "experience".
So are you saying that a throat strike is as unlikely as a chi ball? Do you want to perform the test? How bout you stand and I ll deliver a chop on your adams apple and we ll see if you are alive after a few minutes. I can guaranee you we wont need three tries.
There is a slight difference between what I am learning and what the yellow bamboo is teaching. Many martial arts styles have chops to the throat as a technique, do you think that they are all wrong or that they havent been tested aver all these years and YOU our savior has come to show us the light!
You are pretty crap mate!
Quote:
The lack of correlation between breaking construction materials and fighting an actual human being and the total failure of such people to actually win a fight is well documented.
Really? Its well documented, then please do show me the evidence. O throat strike is just as quick as a punch, and if you read m post rather than try to argue against it for the sake of it, you will find that I say that hits are always opportunistic and you cant tell if you will be able to do a throat strike, but you train in whatever you train, and I train in whatever I train, why is it so hard for you to comprehend that I can perform my techniques as well as you can?
Quote:
Because, contrary to what your sensei has told you, human beings are not made of paper.
I could say that contrary to what your sensei has told you, you are not as hard as you think! There are places called vital spots, which are far better documented then your "experience".
Quote:
Another fallacy. I don't need to have studied at a yellow bamboo academy to know it's BS.
So are you saying that a throat strike is as unlikely as a chi ball? Do you want to perform the test? How bout you stand and I ll deliver a chop on your adams apple and we ll see if you are alive after a few minutes. I can guaranee you we wont need three tries.
There is a slight difference between what I am learning and what the yellow bamboo is teaching. Many martial arts styles have chops to the throat as a technique, do you think that they are all wrong or that they havent been tested aver all these years and YOU our savior has come to show us the light!
Posted by: Fangshendo
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 07:32 PM
If you think it takes a minute or so to choke someone,you are not studying very effective chokes.It is possible to apply a "blood choke" on a resisting opponent and have them out in seconds.
Posted by: Fangshendo
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 07:43 PM
I will walk away from a fight if possible.If I cannot walk away,I will fight with as much intensity as I can.Hopefully I will be more intense and more forceful than the person I am fighting.I do not want to match force for force,I want to always use overwhelming force.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 07:47 PM
I understand what you are saying and I agree, but after you have succeded in gaining the upper hand, that is when you need to exercise control.
Posted by: laf7773
Re: Fighting - 06/26/05 08:29 PM
I don't think myself or ubermint was referring to anyone PHYSICAL ability to kill but more the ability to mentally go through with it. Anyone is capable of taking a life physically but fewer are able to make the conscious decision to kill someone and go through with it than they think. So many people are quick to say "i'd kill someone if they attacked me with a knife" when in all actuality they would most likely freeze up and do nothing. I wasn't arguing ubermint's point because he is right. I was making a point that there is no way he could know something about people he has never met that they themselves don't know and that the tone of his post was uncalled for.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: Fighting - 06/27/05 12:54 AM
Ubermint, it is possible to kill a person with your bare hands. Not as likely as hollywood would have you believe, but still possible. Punch someone hard enough in the temple and you could kill them. And considering the difference in strength between a person's adam's apple/larynx and concrete slabs, a throat strike can indeed be deadly. Now, to the point of your personal attacks against members of the forum. That is prohibited in the rules, and when a mod gets named to this forum, I guarantee your posts will be deleted, as MAGr is currently the front runner for the position, and any other candidate is likely to be on good terms with him.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: Fighting - 06/27/05 05:00 AM
Laf,
Mentally I would never go through with it. I dont think I could kill someone under ANY circumstances, and however much I lost control. We have had many people quitting after a while because the fighting concepts were too violent 'chops, breaks etc', but what I always used to tell them is that the nature is not violent, and that the people in my school are the most peacfull you will find. Just because we know that we can do it doesnt mean we will. Some people will, but the thing that I have been taught in MAs over all the fighting concepets, is mercy .
That is what you learn at the same time, and what everyone who knows martial arts should practice.
Mentally I would never go through with it. I dont think I could kill someone under ANY circumstances, and however much I lost control. We have had many people quitting after a while because the fighting concepts were too violent 'chops, breaks etc', but what I always used to tell them is that the nature is not violent, and that the people in my school are the most peacfull you will find. Just because we know that we can do it doesnt mean we will. Some people will, but the thing that I have been taught in MAs over all the fighting concepets, is mercy .
That is what you learn at the same time, and what everyone who knows martial arts should practice.
Posted by: Fisherman
Re: Fighting - 06/27/05 09:03 AM
To answer the original question...
When sparring your goal is to win, when fighting your goal is to live.
When it comes down to it, your main goal in a confrontation should be to survive.
I surely hope that your martial arts training, whatever it may be and who ever you are, has tought you that there are more ways to survive conflict than fighting.
Fighting should be a last resort, especially if you have a higher skill level. With higher skill level the chances that you will cause your opponent serious harm will be greater.
Sure, it would be great if we could get the skill level good enough that we could dispatch our opponent without harming them. But the chances that there are many of us here with that sort of skill is doubtfull.
Street fights are wildly unpredictable. For anyone to say "I would punch that guy in the temple, fight over" is BS. What happens when the guy moves his head?
My point is; there is a tremendous differnce between fighting and sparring. Sparring is an excellent training tool. Training with others will definately give you an advantage in a street fight. The difference is, with a street fight, you should be fighting to survive.
In the course of a street fight if it comes to a point where you feel your life is threatened, then you need to have enough guts to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. This may require casing your opponent serious harm or even death.
Keep in mind, most street fights begin as shoving matches that escalate into wild hay-maker swings, almost always aimed at the head. Things usually go to the ground because one or both people loose balance and fall down.
The BIG question is; did you really have to fight in the first place?
Quote:
When you fight are there rules,or do you fight for your life?
When sparring your goal is to win, when fighting your goal is to live.
When it comes down to it, your main goal in a confrontation should be to survive.
I surely hope that your martial arts training, whatever it may be and who ever you are, has tought you that there are more ways to survive conflict than fighting.
Fighting should be a last resort, especially if you have a higher skill level. With higher skill level the chances that you will cause your opponent serious harm will be greater.
Sure, it would be great if we could get the skill level good enough that we could dispatch our opponent without harming them. But the chances that there are many of us here with that sort of skill is doubtfull.
Street fights are wildly unpredictable. For anyone to say "I would punch that guy in the temple, fight over" is BS. What happens when the guy moves his head?
My point is; there is a tremendous differnce between fighting and sparring. Sparring is an excellent training tool. Training with others will definately give you an advantage in a street fight. The difference is, with a street fight, you should be fighting to survive.
In the course of a street fight if it comes to a point where you feel your life is threatened, then you need to have enough guts to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. This may require casing your opponent serious harm or even death.
Keep in mind, most street fights begin as shoving matches that escalate into wild hay-maker swings, almost always aimed at the head. Things usually go to the ground because one or both people loose balance and fall down.
The BIG question is; did you really have to fight in the first place?
Posted by: Talimas
Re: Fighting - 06/27/05 03:10 PM
I could never kill someone on purpose, either, no matter how much I lost control or wanted to I wouldn't be able to bring myself to it. The thing that scares me is killing someone on accident, I have watched a good friend die from a very simple fall because the side of his head hit the concrete, a solid shot could easily put someone in that same position with 10x more force then he fell at. Things are to situational to say no one here could ever kill someone with their bare hands (& feet). The road is pretty hard compared to the human skull, anything can happen.
Posted by: BaguaMonk
Re: Fighting - 06/27/05 04:23 PM
Fighting for your life, and fighting with rules are both pretty dumb unless for self development. Unless of course the situation is unavoidable (life or death) than cool. Sparring is just sparring, the best you can do is try to develop yourself the best you can, mentally, physically, hell even spiritually, and develop the skills/tools you need. When the time comes, you should be ready, as long as your thoughts are convulted, and you are calm and clear.
Posted by: Fangshendo
Re: Fighting - 06/30/05 08:56 PM
Of course my training teaches that it is preferable not to fight,but if there is no choice you must fight to win.In my style there are no "dirty" kicks, punches,chokes etc.We do not train to fight to impress,we train to fight to survive.This does not mean we fight to kill or maim,however we do fight in such a manner and style as to be the one who walks away.
Posted by: kilundo
Re: Fighting - 07/01/05 01:28 PM
Quote:
I don't think myself or ubermint was referring to anyone PHYSICAL ability to kill but more the ability to mentally go through with it. Anyone is capable of taking a life physically but fewer are able to make the conscious decision to kill someone and go through with it than they think. So many people are quick to say "i'd kill someone if they attacked me with a knife" when in all actuality they would most likely freeze up and do nothing. I wasn't arguing ubermint's point because he is right. I was making a point that there is no way he could know something about people he has never met that they themselves don't know and that the tone of his post was uncalled for.
I agree his tone was inappropriate. As a side note, I am a low ranking Wing Chun student and I have had knives and shives pulled on me. During those times my training has always kicked in, I quickly disarm the attacker and neutralize the situation. Killing them is an option but rarely is such an option the first choice, and that is as it should be.
If someone pulls a gun I believe that they have decided that my life is expendable, as such it is my life I must defend. If it means their death then so be it, they made their choice and they must suffer the consequences of that choice, just as I will have to do as well. Would I feel badly for killing them in that senario, no, not at all, if it is me or them I will always choose me, as I have far too much to live for to be plagued with self doubt on such an issue.
This is an interesting thread, thank you for the reading material.
