The melting pot of kung fu

Interesting. My base art (American Kenpo) utilizes elbow blocks/deflections as well, but not as a codified technique...they are in the techniques, but you have to find them. They are not pointed out as such. WC is the only art I have seen where they are "pointed out", so to speak.

AKK also employs what they call "checks", which are very similar to the WC trapping techniques, so I had a model for how to utilize sensitivity excercises from that.

The rest was trial and error . It took a while, believe me. I can't believe I'm going to write this, but we actually used the tournament scenes (Bruce vs. Bob Wall) from "Enter the Dragon" as a model to begin our Chi Sao training.

Sounds really bad, I know. But it turned out to have very good functional application.

I am not sure I understand your competition/training question, but if I am reading it right, my answer is both.

We are actively trying to "score" on each other in a resistive format, but as a means of improving sensitivity.

Although I am a big advocate of "find an instructor in your area" there is sometings in fils that can be translated, after you have a solid martial arts base. Also if you want to see a good wing chun film and believe there is only one, its called warriors.
Also in chi sau, try and feel the energy exchange of force that goes between you and your partner, it helps your sensitivity if you consciously think about energy flow.

Yes, good, chi sau is a way of improving sensitivity through scoring points.

As for the comment on bong sau and wing chun not having any blocks, I am aware that you dont use force against force and that they are redirections of force rather than block, but how would you call them so that you apply a common protocal with all MAs?

I think wing chun has some similarities with the filipino MA. Chi sau and lop sau are similar to hubud. I think that hubud is like doing bong sau, then tan sau and then striking.
Also, I think that a lot of wing chun is in some of the karate katas.

Here's my stab at this:

First of all the way WC does chi sau seems very unique to WC. It is a tan/bong sau roll and a low to high fook sau. Other styles, such as Praying Mantis that do chi sau don't have a set pattern per se. They just touch hands and go with the flow, trying to stay sticky. I haven't experienced tai chi push hands yet, but I believe it's just involving deflection of energy/feeling energy. Techniques seem to come muhc later in tai chi training. I think I've seen a Hung Gar version of push hands. But I think it was more of a sensitity drill than the chi sau we're talking about.

Bong Sau, I'll agree with everyone else that it's a hand unique to wing chun. So unique to WC that it was featured in at least one magazine cover. I've heard the asking hand section from bil jee has crane/snake origins. The pigeon toed stance seems pretty unique to WC as well. Center line theory and such are heavily used in WC, but I've heard about it in many other styles. Hands like kwan sao and gan sao may be shaolin in origin. I've learned blocks similar to it. Differences are in angling of the body, etc. In summary, I think most of the wing chun hands are modified versions of other styles. Maybe bong sau's like taht too. It could've been an elbow technique in other styles, modified to be the bong sau in wing chun, much like gan sau came from the shaolin block I mentioned. Chain punching could've come from any style that used vertical punching.

As far as chi sau in tournaments, I've heard some wushu tournaments like UC Berkeley have a chi sau/push hand section. I personally only did chi sau in learning. It's a very efficient way to learn sensitivy and application of techniques, while being somewhat safe and controlled. I have very little problems seeing chi sau going full out combat, or giong a bit lighter into tournament style.

Sorry so lengthy, and hope this helps.


Edit: About the enter the dragon scene.. that is a wing chun type of chi sau, but not THE chi sau that wing chun is known for. The kind of chi sau I believe focuses more on bridging the gap. They are also a lot less sticky.

As I understand it Wing Chung is one of the three major styles that came out of the Shaolin Temple. It was created by a Shaolin Nun who created the system of deflection and infighting to suit her size relative to male martial artists. Meaning that because of her weaker body type she needed to avoide direct strikes and utilize her increased speed to get in and out quickly when fighting.

I take Shaolin Ch'uan Fa which incorporates all elements under the Kung Fu umbrella and I have been told is based upon the original style of Kung Fu practiced in the Shaolin Temple. We study a 5 animal system, which means that we learn techniques that apply to all different body types and physical abilities so that you can match your fighting style to your opponent.

To address your question about Wing Chung utilizing what the founder thought were the best techniques I have this to say. Every family style was created because that practitioner felt that certain movements were more effective for him or her to use in combat. A simple example might be a monk who was a good kicker decided to focus on mostly kicking techniques and developed his own style from there. That does not mean that everyone human can make these techniques work as effectively. That is why certain styles are better for certain body types and attitudes. Hung Gar is another style that came out of the Shaolin Temple, it is a Tiger Crane style that uses a lot of Tiger techniques to overwhelm the opponent. But if you are a small person trying to get Hung Gar techniques to work on a larger person you may have trouble because so much of getting techniques to work has to do with how you compare physically to your opponent. Some would argue that good technique will always win out but I would say that there can always be a wrong technique for the wrong occasion.

That's the great thing about kung fu is that people don't get to caught up in styles or systems. The best kung fu teachers I've meet have all said the same thing "it doesn't matter the style, good kung fu is good kung fu"
My core style is choy li fut. But you can see the heavy influence of hung gar and chin na in there as well.
In reference to the chi sau drills we do them as well. But in our class it's not a pre-arranged set of movements like in wing chun. All styles have their own set of drills to gain "sensitivity". Even when I did boxing we would do drills where we would lean on each other with our forearms touching so we could gain sensitivity. You could feel the opponent drop to the right/left and you would jam their punch with your forearm because you always kept contact with their forearms. I boxed for 12 years off and on.
Bong sau is used in many different styles. Again we used it in boxing as well. Great way to deflect jabs. As the person jabs you lift up your elbow slightly.
In choy li fut the wooden dummy is mainly for conditioning whereas wing chun is used more for sensitivity.
The goal of good kung fu is not about styles but being able to generate good quick power from what ever position you are in.

Kevin

Bong Sao means to tie up not WING ARM. This is a common misunderstanding. People watch too many movies get the wrong Idea.

I know that Hung gar, Jow Ga, CLF all have things called Bong Sao. Same thing with Du Ma, tan sao ,jee keun ect.. they are all general technique names. The actual movement isn't the same.. DUH
People add fancy names to make them "cool" but they all are basic ideas. Like wing arm they thing Wing chun has animal movements.. well maybe the Main Land version does.. but not the HK version.

If you look at different students on Ip man you will find different styles. Most are soft and short range... but I happen to know One disciple who isn't short range and is very hard.

Don't play semantics, Monji.

Bong Sao is TAUGHT as "wing arm", no matter how you attempt to define it. I have not seen it taught AS THAT in any other style, as a codified part of it. Again, please show me examples.

The fact that WC uses it as a distinctive, purposely taught technique is the difference that I am refering to.

wing chun chi sau does NOT have a set of pre arranged movements. It has them in the beginning in order to tech you the movement so that you gain control and energy flow, but certainly not in the more advanced levels.

Quote by MattJ

Bong Sao is TAUGHT as "wing arm", no matter how you attempt to define it. I have not seen it taught AS THAT in any other style, as a codified part of it. Again, please show me examples.

MattJ we don't do the bong sau excatly like wing chun but we do use blocks that use the lifting of the elbow to slip a punch. I did it in boxing and clf. I think that "distintive" bong sau look like in wing chun is done that way for proper form. My friend has been in wing chun for 3 years with several years in other arts and when we spar his bong sau block looks nothing like the block in the chi sau drills that we do.

Kevin

LOL This isn't a semantic

Do you also learn Dragon crushing the pearls?
Yes many BS Sifu's teach anything they want.. but if you translate Bong sao it means TO tie up. It is in every style.. because every style has something that ties up. Its a general term. Many styles have Tan sao ect..

IP man WC has NO direct animal movements, and NO WC isn't the most effective or effortless blah blah blah created.. its just a MA. Nothing is perfect ect..

What is a name? Take Bong Sao, if you pretend to say WING ARM you loose the meaning of the name. A name only helps you remember what the thing does.. Are you going to flap your bong sao?

You can't make general statements about WC or any Style or system. Everyone has a different view.

Some people teach blocking in WC( some teach covering).ect.. ect.. its all relative.


How did you learn to use your Bong Soa?
I have been told by someone to cave-in as soon as I get pressure..
I have been told also that you can use it for a good straight punch..

I have been taught to jam in or redirect ( tie up)
and if I want to cover against a straight punch to add the tan sao... because it will never completely cover any good straight punch (wc or western boxing punch)

if you look at the form as movements you loose allot. The form only shows theory's or ideas.. how to cover with the elbow ect..

I love wing chung's methods of fighting. But I like the Shaolin footwork better, as well as xingyi footwork. btw I find xingyi works really well if you combine it with wingchung methods, but alot of the stiffness/structure has to be loosened.

people have a seriously wrong impression of wing chun, either that or I am studying something different. Our footwork is very mobile and much more so because we dont use a very wide stance. The angling that we practice is a testiment to the footwork, getting in and out of the guard. Bridging the gap?. And paddy cake Paddy cake is a far cry away from what we do in class. Full contact fighting, pad work drills up the.., heavy bag.
The bong sau is a transitional move you dont block with a bong sau.

example of a lao sao
http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/092499za.mpg
first he covers everything with a tan-gan, then follows with a lop sao and a knee.

example of a bong sao +tan (qwan sao) used to stop a high round kick.
http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/102299d.mpg

another were bong is used to cover a area with a tan with.
http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/120899e.mpg
or
http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/121099f.mpg

its all in the way you use anything
Lop sao or bong sao

I didn't get permission from the people in the videos.. so please don't bash people who don't have a chance to respond.

The style of kung fu I study is based on wing chun and jeet kune do.We use bong sao (high and low),the low bong sao looks a lot like a "wing" deflection in cali.Taun sao ,pak sao,die jung and guang sao are the other deflections we use.It is stressed in my system that we deflect,not block, as in other more traditional systems.A deflection is not based on power meeting power and is therefore more effective.Also a deflection can be turned into a strike very quickly.

Keep in mind that strong blocks are meant to hurt the attackers weapons. If you destoy the atacking arm, you may be much safer. Remeber the iron bidges. Wing Chun is not always the pansy art that so many make it seem.

I am in no way trying to insinuate that wing chun is a pansy art.A strong deflection can also be used to inflict pain on an attacker's arm or leg.We do use blocks, such as a double arm block against a high roundhouse.This is very effective and when applied using proper body mechanics is devastating to the attacker's shin.All I was saying was that deflections are stressed more in my system than blocks.

As it should be in my opinion.
The strength of the block should be determined by the situation. You give soft blocks when they are over commiting their bodies for example to draw them in and unbalance them. On a hard hook I would jam it because a deflection may collapse under the pressure aswell as the fact that the harder they hit the more it would hurt them. But ofcourse there are exceptions. Just use the type of block that matches the other person's srike, I would not use the bong sau on a boxer for example, more pat sau and dip/gan sau (slapping block and 'iron forearm' blocks.)

Good post MAGr. I wish I had used the word "deflection" instead of block in regards to the bong sau. Sorry you got raked over the coals on the "tricks" thread. I know what you meant.

Kevin

I am sure other teachers have a different understanding but..

most techniques have a hard and soft way in WC. Hard would be direct and fast but dead on. This is good for some people .. but the main problem with these type of covering or blocking is that they can't take allot of power. If you are not as strong as the person punching or kicking your really out of luck. A softer,slower way is to redirect or deflect the persons attack. You can take much more power when you redirect.. because your not actually taking the power.

Timing is a big deal when looking at both sides