Martial Arts History of China and India

So did Washington really chopped down the cherry tree?

*looking for another hole*

BP, I'm sure Washington chopped more than a few cherry trees down in his life, the question is, did he chop one down and then tell his father when asked about it.

Back on topic.... Indian martial arts have the Greeks (well, actually Macedonians) to thank for.

Why?

A long time ago there was Athens, Sparta and Macedonia, amongst other smaller municipalities, under the leadership of Alexander the Great they joined to form Greece. All of which had kick a$$ armies and military training regimes (especially Sparta) and then they all invaded Asia, reaching almost all the way to China. They mixed highly with those cultures and traded knowledge. Greeks gained knowledge is astronomy and navigation and seamanship among other things, and Arabs learnt about fighting, philosophy, democratic and autocratic systems, trading etc.

They reached India and hence eyrie says that there must have been some influence in fighting techniques. I dont know but I would think that some of it rubbed off, considering the Greek army were so successful.

mag, that's pretty close. Alexander did get quite a way into India before he was wounded and had to turn back. And the Athenians had democratic rule before Alexander was born. I'm sure there were some influences both ways there, especially since the Macedonians spent so much time in Persia.

Bushi,
Alexander died at the age of 32 from pneumonia, he wasnt wounded.
Athenians had it before the time of Alexander thats correct (its a shame they ve lost it now, with corruption and what not).
Did you know that they had this law called ostrascism that stated that if anyone one man got to rich in relation to the rest, he was banished from Athens until his wealth diminished? Also the richest people had a rota system of who contributes the most taxes for building ships every year.

But the most impressive thing about the ancient Greeks, was self critisism. They had the frame of mind to critisize their own rule, their own shortcomings. Women had no place in society (as has been everywhere until recently) but the head playwright wrote a play satirizing the male brutishness and making the women seem the more logical and the final victors of an encounter. This play was not only written by men, but funded by men and watched by men. The state would also fund plays that would ridicule the very people who funded it. There are other countless example of this.

And I m sorry for going into a rant, but it just a shame that instead of progressing from there we have actually taken leaps backwards.

There is much conjecture on how he died. I think pneumonia may have been symptomatic rather than causal.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no12/03-0288.htm

As I understand it, per a History Channel special that was on quite recently, Alexander did make it into India. There would have been communication between India and Persia in those days, so anything the Greeks took to Persia would have had influence across the mountains.

There is no connection whatsoever between Kalaripayattu and Kung-Fu. Kalaripayatttu was formed around the 13th century and Daruma Bodhidarma was alive around the 6th century who traveled to China. There is a 700 year gap between him and the formation of Kalaripayattu. Also, Daruma Bodhidarma was born in the ancient Pallava kingdom of Kanchipuram which is situated in the state of present day Tamil Nadu where Kalaripayattu is not a native art of the state. As a matter of fact Tamil Nadu itself has several martial arts which predate Kalaripayattu thousands of years and are even mentioned in the Tamil literature such as the Silappadikaram during the Sangam Age of the 1st century A.D. Another piece of Tamil literature which mentions of these martial arts is called the Purunaruru or which is basically Four Hundreds songs on War and Wisdom written around 500 B.C.E.

Another thing I would like to point out is that India was not in existence before the arrival of the British around the 1600s. It was the British who unified the states and other regions into India along with Burma and Pakistan. Before the British, the Indian sub-continent consisted of many countries and kingdoms. The latest parts of the sub-continent to be brought into the Indian Union were the 5 French territories of Pondicherry in 1956. Before that, it was Assam, Manipur, and the other Eastern states which came under the British rule and became part of their India during the late 1800s which can be found at Thang Ta: Martial Art of Manipur. At one time the states of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and even parts of Sri Lanka were originally called Tamil Akkam. It was one Tamil administration with three major dynasties being the Pandyan, Cholas, and the Cheras. The Pallavas were also part of Tamil Akkam at one time. However, their empire was divided by Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh. The land where the Cheras ruled later came to be known as Kerala where they formed their own language out of Tamil called Malayalam. As a Matter of fact, Tamil Akkam had such a powerful army and navy in Southern India and Sri Lanka, that not even the Mauryan Empire of Asoka could over power it. It is amazing how Emperor Asoka was able to conquer from North India to Pakistan, Afghanistan and much of central India, but could not conquer Tamil Akkam! This was probably due to their martial expertise as well. Much information can be found along with a map of the Mauryan Empire of Asoka in K.A. Nilakanta Sastri's Age of the Nandas and Mauryas. Another good book to read on this would be Asoka and the Decline of the Mauryas by Romlia Thapar. Here is a link to the map of the extent of Asoka's Empire

Going back to Kalaripayattu, it resembles a lot like Ninjitsu. This art may have been modified over the years to its present state. As for the Martial Arts of Tamil Nadu and Northern Sri Lanka, they are called Kuttu Varisai (empty hand combat), Varma Kalai (pressure point study), and an array of weapons arts. Kuttu Varisai resembles a mix of both Karate and Kung Fu having its own animal forms too. There is one stance in Kuttu Varisai which resembles the horse stance which is found in Kung Fu and Karate. However, it is called the Bear stance.

There are many weapons arts and each weapon is a mastery of its own. One of the most famous one is called Silambam which is similar to the Bo staff fighting in Japan. There are a total of 96 Katas for this art. Another weapon is the Erathai or the double stick similar to the Filipino Kali or Sinawali. There are two unique weapons which are not found outside of Southern India which is the Surul Pattai (steel blade whip) and the Madhu (deer horns). Other weapons arts of the Tamil country are the Val Vitchi (single sword) and the Eretthai Val (double short sword).

Between the 2nd to 12th century AD the Pallavas and the Cholas have done intensive sea trade with Southeast Asian kingdoms like that of Angkor (Cambodia), Sri Vijaya (Indonesia) and even as far as China. It is possible that the Pallavas may have had contact with Japan during their seafaring naval expeditions. A good source on that would be in the book titled Traditional Cultural Link between India and Japan (During the 8th and 9th centuries) written by Dr. Kalpakam Sankarnaryan and Dr. Motohiro Yoritomi. There is a possibility the inhabitants of the islands of Japan may have adopted certain forms of Kuttu Varisai and Silambam by the Pallavas. Silambam which might be precursors to Kendo, Ken-Jutso, and Karate.

During the Chola Empires zenith between the 10th and 12th centuries they had conquered much of Southern India and Eastern parts going through Manipur, Assam, and Southern Burma. There empire stretched to as far south as Sri Lanka & Maldives, and to the East was Sumatra, Java, and Malaysia (Kadaram). Their martial arts must have been one of their exports along with various other arts like dance, architecture, and the Tamil version of the Ramayana. The Ramayana (or Ramayanan, Ramavataram) was re-written from Sanskrit to Tamil by the sage Kavicakravarti Kamban of the 9th century A.D. of the Chola kingdom of Tanjore, Tamil Nadu. There are certain moves which are in Muay Thai which are called the Hanuman or Lim Lom. Hanuman was a warrior in the Ramayana epic. Three sources on this can be found in Cholas by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri, Mystery of the Maldives by Thor Heyerdahl, and Muay Thai: The Most Distinguished Art of Fighting written by Panya Kraithat and Pitisuk Kraitus.

As for the Shaolin, it may be possible that Daruma Bodhidarma did go there and introduced Dhyan [Zen (in Japanese), Chan (in Chinese)]. The absence of fighting forms in China before Daruma Bodhidarma is absolutely false. If there was no fighting form in China, then how did there armies fight which most definitely predates the arrival of Daruma Bodhidarma? There were fighting forms in China. It was Daruma Bodhidarma who introduced his concept of breathing exercises, the arts of the vital points and the 18 Lohan which can be seen in Kuttu Varisai of present day Tamil Nadu. His introduction of these Dravidian combat forms and exercises was adopted by the Chinese which later evolved into Kung - Fu. However, Bodhidarma was also not the only Sage who went to China.

There was another Tamil sage who travelled to China well before him around the 5th century B.C. by the name of Boghar Siddha. He was accompanied by Lao Tse the founder of Taosim and who was the first Chinese to propound the theory of duality of matter -- the male Yang and female Yin -- which conforms to the Siddha concept of Shiva - Shakti or positive-negative forces. In Tamil, Yin and Yang translates to Idai Nadi (female, moon) and Pingelai Nadi (male, sun). The unification of the two becomes Lingam which is a symbol of Siva. The Sanskrit adaptation of the Yin and Yang is Shiv and Shakt (or Siva and Shakti). The Sanskrit translation of the unification of Shiv and Shakt is called Prana. Prana is "breath" and is understood as the vital, life-sustaining force of living beings and the vital energy in all natural processes of the universe.

Acupuncture from Tamil Akkam was also introduced to parts of Asia. This was called Varma Cuttiram also known as Varma Kalai. Originally formed as a medicinal healing art, this can also be used to maim and even kill people. Arts in China which relate to the Varma arts are Tai Chi and Dim Mak.

In Southeast Asia the arts of Krabi Krabong in Thailand and Silat in Indonesia bear a lot of resemblances of the Dravidian warfare arts of Southern India. The animalistic styles and even forms of animism found in Silat are also found in Kuttu Varisai where invokes a specific animal spirit or energy into ones body. Many Chola and Pallava Naval and Merchant ships landing in parts of Southeast Asia have not only brought with them the Hindu and Buddhist religions, but the martial arts as well which fused with the indigenous fighting styles of Southeast Asia. Source Tamil Merchant Guild in Sumatra written by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri.

In the Bible in the book of Solomon and Esther it mentions about trade and contact with India. The term India was used in the King James Version which was translated from Hebrew and Greek during the 1600s and the rise of the British Empire. The King James came about after the British took control over many kingdoms and countries forming it into one British Administration and giving the name India. India is actually a Latin word for Indo or Indus in Greek which is Hindu in the Persian language of Farsi near Iran and Pakistan. In the Tamil texts it mentions about King Solomon’s trade and contact with the Chera, Pandya, and Chola kingdoms of Tamil Akkam. King Solomon was not the only one in contact with the Dravidian kingdoms but Rome, Greece, and Egypt. This information can be found in Foreign Notices of South India: from Megasthenes to Ma Huan written by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri. Other than spices, precious stones, silk, and exotic animals being exported to Rome, Greece and the Middle East, weapons and fighting styles were exported as well. The Romans and the Greeks who traveled to Tamil Akkam were known by the ancient Tamils as the Yavanas. Weapons like the trident amongst others were imported to Rome including certain fighting forms which were used in gladiatorial fights in Rome. More information can be found in Silambam fencing from India by Manuel J. Raj and The Commerce Between the Roman Empire and India by E.H. Warmington.

There are even older fighting styles found on the African continent which may have found its way to the Indian sub-continent and from Australia. These are known as Dambe of Nigeria which one hand is bound for punching, and kicking and head butting are allowed. Similar arts to Dambe are Adi Thada of the Tamils, and Muay Thai of Thailand. The Ringa wrestling of Madagascar is similar to the Tamil wrestling called Malyutham. Amongst the many fighting styles and sports of Africa is the Savika bull fight which can also seen in the Tamil Nadu and parts of Northeastern Sri Lanka bull fights known as Jalli Kattu. Ancient Tamil texts mention of an ancient land mass connecting India with Australia and Madagascar. It also mentions names of cities and rivers which lie beneath the Indian Ocean today. The Indian sub-continent and Australia both lay on the same tectonic plate called the Indo-Australian plate. The tsunami of December 2004 also proved the Lemurian theory when it washed back a couple of miles exposing temples and artifacts in the Bay of Bengal near Mammalapuram, Tamil Nadu. That was the fourth tsunami recorded in the history of South Asia. The third was during the early 1900s. In the Tamil Silappadikaram it also mentions of a great flood or tsunami which wiped out an ancient Pandyan city. An interesting book which goes into detail is called The Lost Land of Lemuria: Fabulous Geographies by Sumathi Ramaswamy The resemblances between Tamils, Malayalees, Australian aborigines and East African are very close. There is an ancient weapon that was used in Tamil Akkam called the Valari which resembles the Boomerang of Australia. The Velari was shaped like the boomerang, but was tipped with a metal blade. Here is an article written by Dr. S.JAYABARATHI JAYBEE on the Valari Weapon

In conclusion, martial arts of India today were actually the martial art of Tamil Akkam thousands of years back and not ancient India. India or the Indian Union did not come into play until after the arrival of the British around the 1600s. Kalari Payat is a very dynamic martial art with an array of weaponry including pressure point attacks and massage. However, it does not go any further back than the 13th century as quoted from Phillip Zarilli's When the Body Becomes All Eyes: Paradigms, Discourses and Practices of Power in Kalarippayattu, a South Indian Martial Art . Daruma Bodhidarma was also well alive almost 700 hundred years before the formation of Kalaripayattu. There were many other sages and monks who have travelled from present day Southern India to China well before Daruma Bodhidarma. Till this day, the sub-continent of India remains a mystery to many people around the world. There are many reasons. One reason is because many people have a habit of modifying history, changing culture, uplifting certain cultures, neglecting other cultures, and try to invent a new culture and call it ancient. Also many vast exaggerations on India which most people claim to be facts are speaking of nothing more than a fools paradise of a modified "mix and match" culture...

Alex was wounded several times in his campaigns. One of the notable events being when he jumped over the wall of a city on his own and his body guards had to rescue him (something I couldn't believe that film missed out!).

However, to what extent it contributed to his death is open to debate.

I am more concerned with the apparent idea that nobody knew how to fight until the Greeks arrived. We seem to be overlooking the fact that there were vast armies in this part of the world who had pretty successful track records until Alex arrived (Persians et al).

With regards to the self-criticism, it is also interesting that the playwrights also wrote plays using the subjects of ancient legends and used them to criticise contemporary events and politics, including over zealous military campaigns etc.

I doubt that Alexander was the one that impacted Indian MA, which in turn impacted Chinese MA since the history of China reaches farther back than that of Alexander. There was a China before it officially became China under Qin shi Huang Di (the 1st emperor of China). There are records of previous ruling dynasties and of course there were the 7 kingdoms. China already had MA back then. I think of it as what Wu Shu really was before it was changed. I dont think that Chinese MA all sprouted from the Shaolin Temple because much has happened in China before Buddhism was even introduced to the country.

I would dare say that Alexander had a strong influence on the grappling art of Vajramushti of Gujurat, Northwestern India. It resembles quite a bit like the Greek Pankration. Also in Northern India close to Afghanistan are many stone sculptures of the Buddha and others which basically have Greek features . However, there was no India at the time back then just like how Iran and Iraq didn't exist during the time of Alexander, when it actually was Persia. The kingdoms he fought there were the Ghandaras, Aspasios, Assekenois, and the Kambojas of Northern present day India.

While the Northern part of the sub-continent was subject to numerous invasions from the Indo-Aryas, Greeks, Mongolians, and the Islamic Moghuls; the southern part had the three oceans for protection including a powerful Navy. There was a lot of sea commerce and trade between Tamil Akkam (present day Southern India/ Sri Lanka) and the West (Greece, Rome, Egypt) including the East like China. Just like Daruma Bodhdarma wasn't the only person from the sub-continent to travel to present day China, Alexander wasn't the only Greek or foreign traveller to the Indian sub-continent.

One of the earliest travellers to the Indian sub-continent by sea was the philosopher, Herodotus (5th century B.C.). It was he and other Greek writers who clssified the Dravidians (Greek word for Thamilians - Tamils) as Eastern Ethiopians. Another, Greek traveller Megasthenes visited one of the Pandyan kingdom of Tamil Akkam around 350 B.C. to 290 B.C. Roman philospher Gaius Plinius Secundus travelled to Tamil Akam around the 1st century A.D. He discovered that Sri Lanka and Southern India was divided by a river, and later learned that it was an island! Other travellers were the merchant fleet of King Solomon (1000 B.C.), Emissaries of Augustus Caesar (1st century A.D.), Marcian of Heraclea (400 A.D.), and Marco Polo (between the 12th and 13th centuries). It was at the turn of the 15th century when Portuese traveller Vasco De Gamma sailed to the Indian sub-continent and colonized the Southern Part from Bombay (Bom Bahia in Portuguese meaning Nice Bay) all the way to Sri Lanka (Cey Lao in Portuguese). The names Cey Lao and Bom Bahia later were changed to Ceylon and Bombay during the British rule. Some good sources to read more on this would be Foreign Notices of South India: From Megasthenes to Mahuan by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri and The Commerce Between the Roman Empire and India by E.H. Warmington

Going back on whether the Greeks had an influence on the fighting techniques in India, I can say yes and no. Yes for the fact that Vajramushti grappling resembles a lot like Pankration, and no it did not influence the martial arts in present day Southern India and Sri Lanka. The fighting styles of Tamil Akkam were absent in Central and Northwestern India. If one were to see the route how Daruma Bodhdarma and others travelled to China it would make sense. It seems as though the places touched during these travels from Tamil Nadu was Orrisa, Manipur, Assam, Nepal, Tibet and then to Shaolin. All these places have similar and very close styles to those found in the southern Dravidian states of present day Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Therefore, the route must have went along the Eastern coast of the Indian sub-continent heading north.


It is interesting how a group, empire, or nation during history would move eastwards where ever it may be spreading their cultural influence. For example:

Greeks spreading influence to east to Persia and present day Northern India

Eastern Africans spreading influence to present day South India and Sri Lanka

Dravidian or Tamil kingdoms of South India spreading influence east to Southeast Asia

Chinese Dynasties spreading influence east to Korea and Japan

Indigenous Indonesians spreading influence east to South Pacific

Polynesians spreading influece east to Meso-America or pre-Colombian America, basically South America.

More information on this can be found in Thor Heyerdahl's American Indians in the Pacific and Mystery of the Maldives.