As I say I don't know an awful lot about karate, but traditional Shotokan kumite seemed to be very much rooted in the concept of ichigeki hissatsu, or the one cut. In the Samurai tradition ichigeki hissatsu was considered the highest skill. It meant to take your opponent out with one strike of a sword, regardless of what happened to you. The idea would be to strike before your opponent, so defense wasn't always at the top of the list. Could be your karate school follows this tradition. What association does your Shotokan class belong to? JKA? ITKF?
It could just be your class though and the way they teach??
Hi Razma. This is typical and I can relate to your observation. The offensive aspects of martial arts are easier to work on than the defensive ones. The blocking in karate is much more important. Actually from a Goju ryu prospective blocks are called uke, as in receive the technique. We don't block it, we make your technique part of our response. We flow with it. This is one of the major differences between the different styles of karate. Not better or worse, just different. Shotokan karate is hard style karate.. linear.. attack in a straight line. In my past M.A. life I did ITF TKD so I have some experience with "banging it out" straight on. IMHO working solely on offensive techniques is fine for tournements but isn't always the way to go as far as self-defense. I guess it comes down to what do you want out of your training. Shotokan is a good style that can make one very fast and hard to defend against,but sometimes it's better to be able to evade the attack. Banging it out linear is for tournements. All I can say is keep training hard!! It will sort itself out. Karate is a journey that has no end. I'm sure that you will find what you are seeking.
My school works under the JKA Organization. I enjoy practicing offense. It's what I've always been good at. And my training is real good at making people fast.
And to answer Prizewriter's question. He says that the ultimate aim of my style is to defeat an opponent with one blow.
And to Gojuman it really does seem to sort itself out. I'm still not sure what I want out of my training. Right now I'm working on improving my stances and such so that I can get more power. Most of my training is for speed and power.
Razma, maybe you could help by telling at what kyu/dan level you are training. Some schools start by learning attacks. Some do this to learn tha attacks, so you know what to defend for. (IMO this only works for karate-kumite-competition, not for self-defense.)
I don't know that much about Shotokan or JKA.
The karate I practice starts the curriculum (9th kyu) with tsuki:punch, gedan-uke:low-block and mae-geri:front-kick. So you see, there is already a uke from the start.
I must also say, that we don't do sparring until 5th kyu level (because of the full-contact form we do) where the level of techniques must be up to par. Yakusoku- or tangan-kumite practice always uses attack and defense at our school.
You could ask your instructor about it. He might have a reason to do things this way.
I think the JKA still does Ippon Kumite? One good hit and it's over. Below is an example of JKA kumite from back in the day. Seems very much the emphasis is on attack in the Kumite below, with the idea of "being first" i.e. hit the other guy before he hits you!
I'm at the 3rd belt level. Orange belt at my dojo. I don't know the kyu system. I'm a good ways away from my first dan rank. We practice and he's taught me all the basic blocks and we just got into blocks and counter attacks. The main thing is that we practice punches and kicks and practice landing them. But we only do blocks in the air. I'm gonna have to talk to him a bit about what's coming up. My training place is currently closed down for the summer, but my class is the adult class and we're supposed to be organizing some training during the summer.
Just so I understand correctly... You practice blocks in the air against no resistance, but you practice punching and kicking each other with no blocking??? Do you just stand there while the other person punches and kicks you?
It actually takes quite a bit of time to develop appropriate skill in any technique. I bet your instructor is taking time developing new material before you're skills in previous studies mature.
Personally I liken all kyu (or beginner) training as just that skill development, not preparation for fighting.
It is always difficult for beginning students to understand the pace of their training until they move beyond it and the logic becomes apparent.
The choice comes down to you to train or choose to do something else, but from the little described the training seems appropriate.
Of course I've only been doing this 38 years now and perhaps I'll learn something better next week.
To prizewriter. No, we don't practice against each other. We practice with pads. It's just straight aggressiveness without the other person participating.
And to Victor. It seems like a snail pace at first, but then I read that Gichin Funakoshi had students working nothing but the first kata for 3 years before starting a new kata. So in comparison to that I'll have to happy. I can't even begin to imagine training for 38 years. I don't plan to ever stop training so I ope I'll get to that much experience.
I'm honestly thinking it's just a time thing to let these skills develop. I remember reading somewhere that the problem with alive training from the start was that you never get the technique down the correct way. I'm probably just getting antsy because I can make some great sounds with my punches and kicks but I can't defend myself well.
A big problem in arts like boxing, Judo, BJJ et al... is that everyone wants to bypass their vegetables and go straight to the ice cream. A lot of people want to spar, but people are often reluctant to drill their techniques first. A good coach will do a lot of “alive” drills and then introduce new students to sparring.
I know blocking might seem like an important part of “self-defence”, but I also have spoken to karate-ka who are dubious about how realistic certain karate blocks are. In fact I think there are several threads on here about it too. If you are worried about “self-defence”, I would encourage you to educate yourself further on the causes and prevention of physical violence. I sincerely believe a person can build an effective self-defence program without going near a martial arts class. Marc MacYoung (a reformed violent criminal) has an excellent website with a lot of free advice on self-protection and criminal behaviour (and how to stay safe):
Do some reading and don’t believe that martial arts = self-defence. 99% of people go into a martial arts class because they are afraid (whether they admit it or not). Martial arts can help you get over that fear certainly, but you’ll have the most success in any art when you learn to love it*. Just enjoy your training.
Prizewriter I couldn't find the thread from the search box. What blocks do you think is ineffective? I've only learned the first 5 so far, but they all seem effective and usable.
I am not a fan of blocking in general (parries and/or evasion are much better, IMHO), but I have to say that the downward block is one of the least effective blocks I can think of. About a 50/50 chance you'll hurt your hand blocking a good kick, with the added bonus of leaving your face open at the same time.
Prizewriter I couldn't find the thread from the search box. What blocks do you think is ineffective? I've only learned the first 5 so far, but they all seem effective and usable.
Regarding blocks being effective, depends. I use to think TKD blocks seemed effective until I realized they were only effective against TKD punches lol! Here is an example of what I mean:
Looks nice, but no one punches like that outside of traditional arts like TKD or Karate. Certainly the sort of blocking I learnt in TKD would be useless against the sort of punches boxers throw:
Prizewriter... Did you have to bring up the ITF clip. lol. I've been trying to purge those old techniques from my long term memory. Now you go and show them to me. This is terrible!! I'm sure that the bad dreams are just around the corner. You know the ones...Bad guy squares off with TKD black belt.. BB goes into stance...bad guy beats the ---- out of BB. Awww!!!!Whew, it was only a dream. I shouldn't art bash, but I have found that very few techniques from my TKD days have passed muster to be included in my current skill set.
I am not a fan of blocking in general (parries and/or evasion are much better, IMHO), but I have to say that the downward block is one of the least effective blocks I can think of. About a 50/50 chance you'll hurt your hand blocking a good kick, with the added bonus of leaving your face open at the same time.
Aren't all the blocks taught pretty much parries? That's how I've always thought of them.
It seems like they'd work with proper footwork. Height and everything else would have to change but I don't think they were ever meant to be stationary positions.
Aren't all the blocks taught pretty much parries? That's how I've always thought of them
Not in all systems. American kenpo defines blocks as defensive maneuvers that act on a perpendicular (or nearly so) to the incoming strike. A parry is defined as a defensive maneuver that acts on a parallel (or nearly so) to the incoming strike.
This is why I tend to think of blocks as a last resort, 'oh sh1t' reaction because they will result in hard impact, and little control of the opponent's momentum. Parries are better (IMHO), as they offer much less impact, and better control of the opponent's momentum. Evasion is even better, as it offer little or no impact, and frees all of your weapons to strike back at the same time.
So, I agree with you that footwork will make blocks work better, but then, why block when you can hit?
To MattJ To open them up for a better strike. Like using an outside inside block to get behind them. Basically, to maneuver yourself to where they have few ways to hit back.
And to 47MartialMan
I agree with you, but now, I'm thinking that we're just using these lower belt levels as skills training. He has told me before that we will do live training, but he wants us to learn the skills first.
I would think that using a block to re-direct a persons body shape to move yourself in to a better position is pretty risky IMO. I assume that is what you are talking about?
First of all, what if it isn't a straight punch? Could you still use that block to stop a left hook aimed at your head? Or an uppercut?
What happens if you miss with your block or it doesn't redirect the attacker as you hoped?
What happens if the attacker throws many punches at once? Or gets close enough to grab your blocking arm and starts a grappling match??
Matt had it totally right, footwork is the best way to avoid an attack and position yourself for a counter.
This is just an Aikido demo, but notice the positions the defender gets himself in to here just by using footwork. He doesn't use any hard blocks.
In Tai Chi they don't spar yet it is an awesome martial art.
Relax if I have worked out the level your at you've only been training less that a year.
Your first point of call for ANY question should be your Sensei/Sempai.
It takes around 3 1/2 to 5 years to get to black belt level and you will learn a lot. Don't worry about how fast you learn the techniques as the longe you practice the better you will become at those techniques.
Sorry if I come across as a wiseass but they do spar in Tai Chi. It's called Tui Shou, aka "Push Hands". Two non-compliant Tai Chi practioners try to push/pull each other out of an area. It tests a students structure and sensitivity skills. Think of lightweight sumo wrestling and you'll start to get a pale idea of Tai Chi sparring.
To MattJ To open them up for a better strike. Like using an outside inside block to get behind them. Basically, to maneuver yourself to where they have few ways to hit back.
And to 47MartialMan
I agree with you, but now, I'm thinking that we're just using these lower belt levels as skills training. He has told me before that we will do live training, but he wants us to learn the skills first.
Beginning with attacks (in regards to sparrring) makes sense to me. Attacking requires a specific mindset. Most people have to redeveloppe this mindset. (This depends on the way you were raised. Ethics and such.) When you start to early with the defensive skills, you might focus to much on evading and stepping back.
A sparring match is never won without scoring points through landing attacks.
A similar mindset has to be developped to apply in self-defence situations. (Think pre-emptive striking and such.)
That is correct Martialman. In our class the sparring we do is only to work on techniques for self-defense. It didn't take to long to find out that my tournament teqhniques from the past weren't gonna help in this type of sparring.
We do Bogu-kumite, that means more or less: You are going to be hit. Hit hard. If your techniques are not up to par, you are going to injure someone. (Low level participants tend to be the worst opponents injury wise.) But befor you start blocking/parrying, you have to know how to attack. 'Give before you take.' (Or something like that ) Knowing how to attack, will tell you what to defend for.
That is correct Martialman. In our class the sparring we do is only to work on techniques for self-defense. It didn't take to long to find out that my tournament teqhniques from the past weren't gonna help in this type of sparring.
keep training, Mark
I see a lot of tournament videos where the techniques are fast but don't have anything behind them. Why do people train like this? It may win trophies but won't help in an actual confrontation.
I guess because some people are interested in winning trophies and tournament competition. Personally I couldn't care less about tournaments, but if the participants enjoy them, then great.
Because they like to win trophies - there is nothing bad in that by itself
What is bad when these people who ONLY train that type of martial arts claim to be able to do and teach things they never really learn i.e self defense.
Competition is not a bad thing but I do not like or approve of big competitions and tourneys I believe there is enough competition in the dojo where you train between your fellow practitioners.
When tournaments become focus the martial part of any art gets shadowed and much often completely lost as people only practice for tournaments and alike of course if the competitions are full contact things are very much different but semi-contact, light contact or even no contact is clearly dominating most hugely popular martial arts these days.
If what your looking for is a strong and powerful technique then be prepared to work for it, it's a lot easier to become a good competitive Karateka than an actual martial artist and a Karateka.
What is bad when these people who ONLY train that type of martial arts claim to be able to do and teach things they never really learn i.e self defense.
Agreed. Not that there aren't tournament people around who can't defend themselves. I'm sure there are plenty who can, but being good at tournaments doesn't automatically mean that you are good at self-defense. People can claim anything they want. It's just talk. The reality check comes when they are put into a situation where they have to defend themselves for real. Then they learn the truth about what they can do, good or bad. People who go around claiming to be able to do this or that have a problem with self-esteem. Besides ourselves, and possibly our instructors, nobody really cares about what we can do as martial artists, and if someone enjoys bragging about what they can do, then their attitude isn't right in the first place.
We're going back to "levels of contact" discussion.........
Again!!!!
I being a Knockdown Karateka will only say that a Blackbelt SHOULD be sparring Full Contact "Knock Down" with other Blackbelts whereas Lower grades should be between NON-Contact (Whitebelt) and FULL Contact(third Brown)
I forgot about the "Push hands" in Tai Chi but its not the same as the Sparring I'm used to. The closest Chinese Art to have Sparring Clsoe to my type of Sparring is "San Shou" or "San Da". "Cung Le" is a famous practitioner of the style
Regards Sparring and Defence, its just confidence and Shadow Sparring builds confidence and also the One Step gives meaning to some of the defences etc in Karate
I have boatloads of respect for your style of karate. Correct me if I'm wrong here but are you saying that at black belt level all sparring should be done at full contact only? Is there nothing to be learned by the give and take between opponents at a lower level of contact? I realize that knockdown Karate is the real deal. I'm not a wimp here(just getting old.)
I have boatloads of respect for your style of karate. Correct me if I'm wrong here but are you saying that at black belt level all sparring should be done at full contact only? Is there nothing to be learned by the give and take between opponents at a lower level of contact? I realize that knockdown Karate is the real deal. I'm not a wimp here(just getting old.)
keep training, Mark
Mark-san, I have huge respect for Goju Ryu too, I have a couple of Goju Yudansha that come and "play" quite regularily
For Black belts, I would say in the Dojo, its Full Contact with Common Sense. You're not out to damage and destroy your training partner, just not tippy tappy bouncy bouncy one strike and scream, it MUST be continuous and no points just knock-down rules!
Continuous sparring is definitly the way to go. Tag ...you're it... doesn't cut it. I was checking out one of your old posts (432374) and took in your kata from Ashahara. Most impressive.Your kata looks like a real fight is happening. Not too many kata I've seen are like that. You know what I mean. Most look like old school. Which is cool with me. The Ashahara kata looks like someone just opened a huge can of whup--s. They flow different than I'm used to seeing. Different,but cool. I wish I wasn't so ancient and could get in there and bang like that,but I'd probably get knocked out.Ha!Ha! I'd get hit so hard I would wake up and my clothes would be out of style.
Matakiant-san, I practice Ashihara Karate, although Influxes of Tang Soo Do and Wado and Jujitsu have filtered through. Ashihara is a Full Contact Style, created by Ashihara Kancho, who was an Uchi Deshi and Senior Instructor of Oyama Sosai. There are many Youtube videos of the Kata and the level of Kumite we use
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
And if you think full contact should begin at third brown how long is the average transition from that to black belt in your style.
When I stated that it should begin at 3rd Brown this was a general statement to ALL Karate Styles like Shukokai (Shito Ryu), Wado Ryu & ShotoKan etc, notwithstanding the Knock-Down styles (Kyokushin/Ashihara/Enshin) which are "Full Contact" from Day 1. The average transition from 3rd Brown to Black, well the Minimum is 12 months from grading but it is on invitation, to me this would involve a different Thread on the subject, but briefly I feel that it should be a minimum of 2 years and that the transition is a mental not physical one as the train of thought for a Mudansha compared to a Yudansha is completely different. You never need to tell a Yudansha you need to do this or that etc whereas a Mudansha needs direction/instruction all the time.
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
Ohh and does it actually begin at third brown in your style?
Matakiant-san in my style Full contact sparring begins when the student is ready to progress whether they are Brown or White, Ashihara is "Full Contact" from the beginning as is Kyokushin, but we have a rule in the Dojo that the Lower Grade controls the pace, so if the lower grade "taps" them the higher grade Taps, but on gradings the higher grade does put the lower grade under pressure (levels dependant of what grade they're going for) to allow the to honour the grade they're going for.
That is correct Martialman. In our class the sparring we do is only to work on techniques for self-defense. It didn't take to long to find out that my tournament teqhniques from the past weren't gonna help in this type of sparring.
keep training, Mark
Agreed. Too many martial artists out there tend to frown upon other arts. Thinking that sparring cannot lead to defense progress
I believe that sparring as a way to flow and react between opponents is very important. One must be ready to shift the body to gain an advantage for the counter. This give and take helps hone our reactions. Recently my sensei attended a seminar where the Chinese arts were the order of the day. The next couple of classes after sensei returned were full of techniques that came from that seminar.This was great to focus on areas that we sometimes forget to emphasize. In Goju ryu it's easy to concentrate on the "Go" and forget the "Ju." We try to counter with a strong,locked down strike but forget that not all reactions are to be force on force. With this in mind we did some sparring drills where evasive footwork and "slipping to the side" of the incoming attack were the order of the day. It was great to get back to our roots so to speak.GOju is hard and soft. I found that when I neglected the soft aspects that my sparring becomes much too rigid. It just doesn't flow.
That is true the Go/Hard aspect of the Goju-Ryu seems easier to apply and understand, but really the Ju/Soft is more natural and flowing. Sometimes its diffucult to set the opponent up to flow with but just the open blocks are less forceful and still do the job. The idea of usihg less force to get job done becomes more important the older we get. Less movement and angles while just out/inside of him doing damage to his center line to drop him makes alot of sense instead of al that hard trading punches. The Ju/soft method as you know can be quite powerful, which seems to be a paradox.
Bunkia and Kiso Kumite does open the eye to the real purpose of Karate it was to stop, maim and kill back in the day, not score points.
Thanks Neko456. It really is an eye opener to concentrate on the soft/Ju portion of the style. I'm humbled greatly by the softer side of Goju ryu. As a old dog (51) who isn't very graceful in his movements, "Ju" is difficult for me. I've come to the point in my life where I don't have the strength and endurance of my youth. I want to be competant in my chosen style, but need to be smarter in how I train. The days of slugging it out are over.....almost. Starting back up in the martial arts after along layoff (12 years) has presented me with many challenges.The biggest being getting my head around being middle aged. Getting old stinks. I guess I just got to keep at it.
In order to work soft techniques you have to want to be soft. Instead of hard blocking or resisting someone pushing you take a step back then turn and now you can push them. Its like the open door theroy 1st you are solid then you open to let them past then you close behind them. Its all just a mindset you must resist standing and resisting/slugging it out unless you have a angle. You have to adjust from high kicks & throws to low kicks, trips and sweeps. And strikes that grabs and twist. Working body movement instead of any block at all. Keep training but more mind then body.
