Bassai

Posted by: Kimo2007

Bassai - 12/30/08 01:49 PM

Looking for info on the ending to Bassai. Are there variations to the end? I am seeing shuto strikes on Shotokan sources but I thought there was a different version.

Specifically I am looking for the Shudo-Kan version (Toyama) if anyone is familiar.

Thanks
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Bassai - 12/30/08 05:10 PM

youtube is your friend -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QeEqJ6uJmM
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: Bassai - 12/30/08 05:58 PM

That is very close, it's a Cat stance with a double shuto strike. I have seen other endings as well, mostly minor changes in stance and angle of the strike.

Thanks for the link though, best one I have seen (in terms of matching what I was looking for)
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Bassai - 12/31/08 03:42 PM

no problem, glad it was of use.

Passai/Bassai seems fairly consistant with the ending in relation to general principles across the shorin based systems.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: Bassai - 01/02/09 08:13 AM

The book advertised on the right hand side of the screen (usually) about The Meanings of Forms & Kata for Adults Level, depicts some really good insight into the Bassai Kata, it explains that within the kata there are no less than 14 neck wrench techniques within the kata

I've not seen them myself but then again I don't actually practice Bassai yet

Thanks Guys

Happy new year!!!!
Posted by: Barad

Re: Bassai - 01/02/09 08:38 AM

Not to be contrary for the sake of it but who really needs 14 neck wrenches, even if they are there in the kata? I think a similar comment was made recently about learning 200 wrist locks. I find a couple of neck grabs are sufficient and enough to practice (varying dependent on where you grab the head and say whether you dig into the eyes or not and which way you want to twist the head also to control or to break).

I know it is tough up in Manchester (lived there until 17) but there must be a limit to how many necks you want to wrench in a week!

Ben
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: Bassai - 01/02/09 01:54 PM

application on kata can be tricky. just because some one says there are at least 14 neck wrenches dosen't mean there are. it all depends on how you view your application. you could, for example, take the idea that as long as each hand is moving in an opposite direction (past eachother) then you can potentially apply this movement as a neck wrench, or an arm bar ect.

so, take heian shodan, every downward, rising and shuto block could be applied as a neck wrench. infact, even the punches could be neck wrenches. one hand grabs the top of the hair while the other grabs the chin, pull with one hand push with the other and bingo bango, neck wrench city.

or you could be a real inovator and grab some one's hand at the wrist and again at the elbow, then "punch" with the "striking" hand holding the elbow and there you have a quick arm bar. not enough to "break" it, but you get control of their structure.

the same movement can be used for so much.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: Bassai - 01/05/09 09:02 AM

I agree with you Student

Yeah Barad things are getting tough in Manchester, in the area I'm from even the Rotwiellers walk around in pairs

I perceive this is why there are so many styles of Karate, each having its ethos on how kata bunkai each Karateka having a different view on what techniques mean what

Thanks guys
Posted by: karateka75

Re: Bassai - 02/22/10 11:58 PM

check out www.karatecoaching.com i just joined that website and they have a lot of very great and unique ideas about kata, bunkai and much more stuff... i have never seen something like it, really a great thing those guys did put together
Posted by: Ives

Re: Bassai - 02/23/10 06:13 AM

Kimo2007,

In our Genseiryu-no-Bassai(-Dai) the last strikes are performed as "Yoko-Nukite-gamae", so they are basically Nukite-uchi.Our 'Sho'-version also has Shuto-uke/uchi. The exact meaning/applications behind it, I don't know, I haven't had a go at these kata.

As for Shudo-kan/Toyama: we study a Wangshu-no-kata (Enpi in Shotokan) form a Toyama lineage in our system.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: Bassai - 02/23/10 12:06 PM

I'm learning the Tang Soo Do version of Bassai, Not too sure which is the correct version as this is different to Shotokan and Wado versions.

I do like the explaination in the book that is available in the adverts to your right

"The Meanings of Forms & Katas" Adult Level It suggests 14 neck wrenches in the kata

Excellent kata
Posted by: Ives

Re: Bassai - 02/26/10 05:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
I'm learning the Tang Soo Do version of Bassai, Not too sure which is the correct version as this is different to Shotokan and Wado versions.


What do you mean by correct? There are literally hundreds of Bassai version, all with some differing specifics.

However since you are trainig in Wadoryu, I'd stick with that version for a while. But that's just my take on things.
Posted by: MAGon

Re: Bassai - 04/11/10 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
I'm learning the Tang Soo Do version of Bassai, Not too sure which is the correct version as this is different to Shotokan and Wado versions...


???? I'm curious as to why you say the TSD version is different. I cross trained (As a Shotokan nidan) in a TSD dojang in the late 80's for about 3 mos. At that time, it was remarkable to me how SIMILAR TSD forms were to Shotokan. What was different was that the TSD versions were less stylized, more down to earth and closer to the true application (bunkai) of the techniques than Shotokan's.
Have things changed so much since my time?
Posted by: Ives

Re: Bassai - 04/21/10 01:37 PM

@ Kimo2007: Have you found some interesting variations? Let us hear your findings.

And what is the Bassai version you are currently training?
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Bassai - 04/23/10 01:32 PM

I studied the Tang Soo Do version of Bassai Dai back in the later 70's under Frank Trojanowizc (Cindy Rothrock's original instructor). There were no TSD application studies at that time (nor in most of the arts I trained in at that time).

Several years later I trained in the Tristan Sutrisno Shotokan Bassai Dai, which contained an entire universe of application studies and very solid Bassai Dai practice.

IMO the Shotkan kata version was more grounded than the TSD version of those years.

Certainly there is great variance between schools in the same style and many changes as time passes.

Patasi (the source of Bassai) is much older than Tang Soo Do, and it is apparent that the TSD version is a variation of the Shotokan of Funakoshi Ginchin, with a TSD flavor.

That isn't good or bad, in the end its what you do with the technique that matters, no matter which one.

In 1977 a book was published in Japan with 15 of the main Patsai variations (and there are many more sub variations) Perhaps as many variatinos as many schools teach the kata.
Posted by: MAGon

Re: Bassai - 04/28/10 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Victor Smith
I studied the Tang Soo Do version of Bassai Dai back in the later 70's under Frank Trojanowizc (Cindy Rothrock's original instructor). There were no TSD application studies at that time (nor in most of the arts I trained in at that time).


What a difference 10 yrs., or perhaps a different dojang, make. As mentioned, I crosstrained with a TSD teacher in the late 80's. The moves were less stylized, more grounded. The bunkai (I.e: The situation envisioned and the response to it) was clear to me just from watching the form.

Originally Posted By: Victor Smith
Several years later I trained in the Tristan Sutrisno Shotokan Bassai Dai, which contained an entire universe of application studies and very solid Bassai Dai practice.


I only know Sutrisno-sensei by reputation (I understand from "elsewhere", where they speak nononsense ( wink ), that you two are friends).
But from all I've heard, I'm not surprised to read what you wrote about the kata experience at his dojo.
You do have to admit, though, that he's not your run-of-the-mill JKA instructor.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Bassai - 04/28/10 08:38 PM

Sutrisno Sensei, instructor and friend is not JKA. His Shotokan studies came from his father's training in Japan in the 1930's and the standards one associates with JKA Shotokan are not the ones his art defines.

In the end though all that matters is one technique that works, and any training program can provide that ability.

A movement can have one application (very old style Northern Chinese) or it can have dozens and dozens, but any one with sufficient skill developement can stop almost any attack.

It's not numbers after all. Techniques are applied one by one when stressed.