Not THAT Shotokan!!!
Posted by: Prizewriter
Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/02/08 12:58 PM
Snooping around the karate forums as I like to do now and again, I read some old threads about Shotokan on here. A lot of them concern people asking about specific orginizations.
A lot of the posts are pretty critical about many of the major Shotokan orginizations such as JKA, ITKF, KUGB (well, KUGB as it is now...) and the way they teach Shotokan.
Does anyone have any examples of what they consider "good" Shotokan (apart from the Art of War KUGB clip, which is ace!), be it from their own experience, websites, or media they have online (e.g. video clips, images etc...)??
A lot of people here seem to have an interest in Shotokan ( I do, though I don't practice it or know a lot about it), and as I said, some people have some very strong opinions on what "bad" Shotokan is. So surely some folks must have experience/ideas of what they consider "good" Shotokan to be!
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/02/08 01:15 PM
*paging JohnL*
i'm under the ITKF banner, which means nothing to people outside the shotokan world, but it has many differences from the origional JKA style, and the modern KUGB style.
what i consider to the be older JKA style:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=rYG4OpE9lR4this is what i consider near the pinicle of technical skill in technique for these guys. not my cup of tea, all shotokan guys have roots that mix in the not to distant past, but i'm glade what i do has changed from this stuff.
this is more of what i call JKA stuff:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=P0TNTFj3EuQthis i don't like. repetetion is key for skill building, but what you repeat is vital!, lol. ippon kumite, kihon, and (solo) kata practice define this stuff. i don't like it. the only punch practiced is the full extention reverse punch, no thought to close punching. back leg kept "straight" means the hip is pulled on and the lumbar spine in placed under extreme presure on contact. but do it this way because sensei says. i don't like it.
the ITKF stuf fi've posted on here usually gets ripped by non ITKF guys, and most people in general.
this is kata the ITKF shoots for in competetion standards:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gPP8s_KXEpUthese are some drills to develop timing:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=FBIlzeeFQ2ghttp://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=fUYqrcU0RW8http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2JeuvI5bYFYalot of people don't like the ITKF, i do. i think it's got it's flaws too, plenty of them, too many to list here, lol. but they apply to shotokan in general, mostly.
what it's got to offer that the others don't is, in my mind, a reason behind everything in shotokan that makes you think "ummmm, why am i doing this?" real scientific/commen sense reasons why we do things the way we do. which i can sink my teeth into alot more then having some one tell me to do a kata 1000 times before next week to improve my technique. which is nonsense.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/02/08 07:10 PM
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzX7dUDDfMhttp://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym6NALT5VsQThe above are two of the best representations of modern Shotokan being used in a fight-effective way.
Modern Shotokan as it is commonly taught has alot of flaws, many of which are evident in both of these clips, but it has many strong points which make it in my mind a very effective art and a worthy discipline. Best of all is how much more the art has to offer the individual who develops himself beyond the limits of the Japanese conventions.
"Best of all is how much more the art has to offer the individual who develops himself beyond the limits of the Japanese conventions."
Amen brother.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/03/08 06:38 AM
Being an ex-Sefrican (South African) I can't help but recommend the shotokan of Malcolm Dorfmann, Stan Schmidt, Norman Robinson and Rob Ferrier; quite simply superb karate.
Have a look at "Kill or be Killed" and "Kill and Kill Again" - movies featuring James Ryan in the lead role. Clunky Sefrican productions, but excellent karate from the JKA masters of the era...
Posted by: Barad
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/03/08 08:20 AM
I thought you were Serbian-Australian?
Ben
Posted by: dandjurdjevic
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/03/08 09:18 AM
Indeed. I'm a Serbian-Australian with a South African accent (I lived there from age 10 to 18).
Posted by: Barad
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/03/08 09:40 AM
Must get confusing!
Posted by: Barad
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/03/08 09:50 AM
Sho,
I cannot deny there is some impressively hard and skillful kumite going on there. However it is still long range against "karate" attacks, mostly using the standard Shotokan tools gzaku zuki and (high) mawashi geri. Excellent for stamina, timing and guts but IMO not in itself enough to be fight-effective for most people training this way. Like you, I have seen hundreds of people over the years aspiring to this but only a couple, perhaps like the people in those clips, who I truly believe could adapt to HAOV outside of tournament and dojo. Still a worthwhile discipline, as you say, depending on what you hope or expect to get out of it I suppose. I think the Japanese have peddled a lot of myths over the years about what Shotokan can do for you and what the movements mean, however.
Ben
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/04/08 02:19 PM
Or maybe, being a "DO" and not a "JUTSU", Shotokan was never really intended to be a serious fighting method despite the desire of its practitioners to believe otherwise. The 20 Precepts would certainly suggest that.
"Or maybe, being a "DO" and not a "JUTSU", Shotokan was never really intended to be a serious fighting method"
bahahahaha
your grouping all shotokan dojo into one training paradigm, like its a way to make a point or something. my karate is a serious fighting method, its no more a way of life as video games is. its a hobby and not a religion.karate is weird no matter if its japanese based or the all mighty okinawan method.
"despite the desire of its practitioners to believe otherwise"
bahahahaha
"The 20 Precepts would certainly suggest that."
out of everything funakoshi wrote, i like this the best:
"War is a tool God gave man to organize the world."
that seems to sum it up well. budo dosen't outline the way for me.
Posted by: Dobbersky
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/04/08 07:13 PM
Sorry to hijack this thread for a moment
As this is an active Shotokan thread I have a question to ask.
I own the Sensei Kanazowa's 3 disc set and I wanted to know why are shotokan kicks done with your arms out by your sides thus giving zero protection for your upper body?
I mean this in a respectful way and please would you answer so I will understand.
Thanks and sorry again for hijacking this thread
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/04/08 08:58 PM
Quote:
"Or maybe, being a "DO" and not a "JUTSU", Shotokan was never really intended to be a serious fighting method"
bahahahaha
your grouping all shotokan dojo into one training paradigm, like its a way to make a point or something. my karate is a serious fighting method, its no more a way of life as video games is. its a hobby and not a religion.karate is weird no matter if its japanese based or the all mighty okinawan method.
"despite the desire of its practitioners to believe otherwise"
bahahahaha
"The 20 Precepts would certainly suggest that."
out of everything funakoshi wrote, i like this the best:
"War is a tool God gave man to organize the world."
that seems to sum it up well. budo dosen't outline the way for me.
No, Shotokan is "Karatedo" and not "Karatejutsu", which is why I stated that. *I* am not grouping anything, as I am not the one who created Karate or came up with those two conventions. I was speaking more towards the original intentions of the one who created Shotokan (or who is given credit, anyways). Yeah, to each his/her own, and you practice the way that you choose to practice, you certainly won't get any argument from me as that is a "you" thing and not a "me" thing. The point I was trying to make is, it would be nice to understand the original intention of the style and its conventions so as to not be disappointed if that style ultimately fails at doing what one tries to make it do as opposed to what its creators designed it to do and intended for it to do. Kind of like, know the proper context of the product in question and don't get it twisted, sort of thing. If budo doesn't outline the way for you, then why exactly are you practicing a BUDO to begin with 
? That's like saying I don't do dairy products but I am on a diet that is dairy-heavy 
. Again, know the product and what it entails.
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/04/08 09:03 PM
Quote:
Sorry to hijack this thread for a moment
As this is an active Shotokan thread I have a question to ask.
I own the Sensei Kanazowa's 3 disc set and I wanted to know why are shotokan kicks done with your arms out by your sides thus giving zero protection for your upper body?
I mean this in a respectful way and please would you answer so I will understand.
Thanks and sorry again for hijacking this thread
I would reckon that it is for training and balance purposes. When I learned how to kick in Shotokan, we did the same thing during our line drills - arms out and to the sides for balance. As we became more advanced, our kicks were done in a fighting stance during line drills. I am guessing that this is the case in the Kanazowa (Kanazawa?) films?
Posted by: dandjurdjevic
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/04/08 11:48 PM
The arms down in kicks is, as far as I understand it, an isolation exercise; just as your arms swing counter to your legs in running, counterbalancing your kick makes it stronger ('every action has an equal and opposite reaction).
Personally I think it grooves too much of a bad habit...
9 times out of 10 when you hear someone use the terms "do" and "jutsu" they imply a "jutsu" is more effective because of what ever reason. you sai it yourself: "shotokan was never ment to be a serious fighting method" semantics.
"If budo doesn't outline the way for you, then why exactly are you practicing a BUDO to begin with?"
because i'm not japanese, my cultural belief structure is fine on it's own, with out the dojo kune, and the niju kune, and any other rule that was made by the samurai and got poorly translated, understood and used out of context.
you can still learn the techniques of the system and fight with them.
sometimes at gradings for lower level kyu ranks, they are asked to do the kicks with the arms down at the sides so you can see the proper "pendulum" action in the hips, used to generate power in front kicks.
you can see hip action if the arms are in a fighting stance too, but with the arms our of the way i guess it helps more.
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/05/08 04:59 AM
Quote:
9 times out of 10 when you hear someone use the terms "do" and "jutsu" they imply a "jutsu" is more effective because of what ever reason. you sai it yourself: "shotokan was never ment to be a serious fighting method" semantics.
"If budo doesn't outline the way for you, then why exactly are you practicing a BUDO to begin with?"
because i'm not japanese, my cultural belief structure is fine on it's own, with out the dojo kune, and the niju kune, and any other rule that was made by the samurai and got poorly translated, understood and used out of context.
you can still learn the techniques of the system and fight with them.
I wasn't trying to imply that one was more effective than the other, just that the focus and the intentions were different - one is a method of Japanese character building (DO), and the other is strictly for fighting and nothing else (Jutsu). One is designed and optimized specifically for combat while the other is designed more to emphasize the teaching and cultivation of certain cultural practices and intangibles that are not entirely combat focused. More effective? I think they both are effective in addressing what they were designed to address in the first place. Neither is inferior to the other, they each have their own purpose and goals and these must be taken into account when bringing up the subject of effectiveness. The "Do" is not about winning or losing, it is about character development, so it is effective at accomplishing this task. The "Jutsu" is not about perfecting one's character or any other pseudo-religious conventions, it is about the science of combat and training specifically to improve one's combat efficacy, and again, it is effective at accomplishing this task. Both "Do" and "Jutsu" are equally effective at accomplishing their designed tasks. The point is those tasks are different. A "Do" was never meant to be serious fighting method because if it was then it would've just remained a "Jutsu" so that it could focus strictly on that area and forego the trappings of the "Do". If you choose to take this as me implying that something is inferior or ineffective then I don't know what to tell you because that is not what I am trying to imply at all. I am trying to say that they are different and have different purposes, but they are equally effective in their own way and both get the job done. They just happened to be designed to do two different jobs.
You completely missed the point in my questioning of your reasoning behind practicing a budo when you don't personally subscribe to the idea of budo. You may not be Japanese, but what you are practicing certainly is! You are not Japanese but your art and its conventions are Japanese and both teach and express the ideas of budo. Your personal beliefs and conventions may very well be just fine, but you must realize that practicing a budo involves studying budo, expressing budo, and ultimately becoming budo - that is the whole point of a budo, which is why I find it so baffling that someone would participate in such a thing when they clearly don't want to be part of what it entails. You don't need a dojo kun, but guess what, as a practitioner of a budo, it comes with the territory and is an indispensable part of the training. Throwing these things out would be "bad" budo, and in a funny kind of way, it touches on the topic of the thread. Hmmm, it is like training in a sport-only style and rejecting the conventions and ideas of competition and what it all entails. The point of me asking the question was to highlight the fact that there are other styles that would be right up your alley and better conform to your views and standards than a budo, so why bother going the budo route when you plainly disagree with budo?
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/05/08 05:36 AM
Quote:
you can still learn the techniques of the system and fight with them.
This represents a profound misunderstanding of the budo. Do you practice sport Shotokan? If so then I can better understand where you are coming from and the whole budo thing becomes null and void because you are not practicing the art, but rather the sport and that is something else entirely (Don't flame me - I am not suggesting that one is better than the other, just that they are different realms with different conventions).
Now, the OP was about "good" Shotokan. To explain "good" Shotokan we must first define what Shotokan is. Shotokan is KarateDO and it is a Budo. Therefore, "good" Shotokan would theoretically be Shotokan that is practiced in a way that is true to its KarateDO and Budo roots and conventions. Physically speaking, "good" Shotokan would be Shotokan that is fast, explosive, powerful, straight-line, low to the ground, plenty of "pop" to the techniques, efficient movements with no wasted motion, and excellent use of tai sabaki (sorry no video 
).
"one is a method of Japanese character building (DO)"
well, i practice shotokan and we learn how to fight, the self defence stuff. so is it a "do" or a "jutsu"? both? who cares?
"but you must realize that practicing a budo involves studying budo, expressing budo, and ultimately becoming budo"
i'm sure you know people who have been training karate for a long time and completly miss the idea of budo, and there are even people in karate who are complete arse holes. the good people i know in karate were good to start with, and budo never made them better people with "stronger charactures". i don't think budo works like it's advertised.
"why bother going the budo route when you plainly disagree with budo?"
i like the physical technique of the style, so i learn that and pay lip service to the mystical crap. what we basically do in class is practice violence as a hobby, i've never been convinced that you can learn non violence through consistant practice of violence, imo.
"This represents a profound misunderstanding of the budo."
a profound misunderstanding of what you call budo maybe. i herd "budo" defined as being about death, and being at peace with your own unescapable death, and basically meeting it like a man when the time comes. so, i do practice a budo, but bowing to someone and using another language to name things isn't an integral part of it for me.
"Do you practice sport Shotokan?"
i have competed 3 times in 5 years of practice. its fun and a good ego stroke, but far from the main reason why i
practice.
"(Don't flame me - I am not suggesting that one is better than the other, just that they are different realms with different conventions)."
lol, im not flaming you. i guees what im trying to say is that there are more "realms" out there then the few used by karate circles.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/05/08 02:47 PM
Quote:
"Do you practice sport Shotokan?"
i have competed 3 times in 5 years of practice. its fun and a good ego stroke, but far from the main reason why i
practice.
I am not sure if he was specifically talking about competing. You can not compete and still practice sport Shotokan. You can also compete and not train in a form of sport karate. IMO its more about training methodologies and training practices. For example, do you point fight in trianing?
at competetion we do Ippon kumite, not the WKF stuff, ITKF Ippon kumite is a bit different in design and purpose. we do train that in calss as well but we don't spend much time on it. more time is spent on partner work and application by far.
only about 5-10% of the people involved with the ITKF compete, so its hardly the goal of training. Shiai is a place where you can come and test your skills if you want.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/06/08 05:19 AM
FWIW I am generally very suspicious of Westerners who emphasise budo. I do not find it fits well into Western culture but it appeals to some because it is exotic and appears to offer a life plan. When I practiced more conventional Shotokan, I came across hordes of people who styled themselves as budoka and revelled in elements of a pseudo-Japanese identity. Nor did I find that Japanese karateka were universal models of integrity ,some were, some were not, same as in the West. Some were pretty violent bullies and on a few occasions anti-Western racists who enjoyed the idea of hundreds of fawning Westerners bowing down to them but at the same time never believing they could physically match any Japanese or understand mystical budo (in an art less than 100 years old!)
I am with Student in that I believe you can practice Shotokan perfectly well for its physical techniques (and argue another day about whether they are the optimum techniques for defence or not) and just ride the cultural gloss borrowed from Kendo and Judo. Most Shotokan clubs claim they teach self-defence as part of the art so they see some practicality clearly.
Knowing a few Japanese over the years and having a passing acquaintance with contemporary Japanese culture and business, to non-karate practicing Japanese, the sight of Western karateka dilligently practicing what they believe is an expression of authentic Japanese culture is about as odd as an Englishman like me seeing Japanese people recreating English Civil War battles, as a few groups in the UK do, interesting but odd and hardly representative of British or English culture.
Ben
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/06/08 01:12 PM
Quote:
"This represents a profound misunderstanding of the budo."
a profound misunderstanding of what you call budo maybe. i herd "budo" defined as being about death, and being at peace with your own unescapable death, and basically meeting it like a man when the time comes. so, i do practice a budo, but bowing to someone and using another language to name things isn't an integral part of it for me.
No, that's bushido - yet again, KNOW THE PRODUCT!
Quote:
"Do you practice sport Shotokan?"
i have competed 3 times in 5 years of practice. its fun and a good ego stroke, but far from the main reason why i
practice.
Understood, and glad that you enjoyed it.
Quote:
"(Don't flame me - I am not suggesting that one is better than the other, just that they are different realms with different conventions)."
lol, im not flaming you. i guees what im trying to say is that there are more "realms" out there then the few used by karate circles.
The "don't flame me" was specifically in reference to something that I said in that post alone that could've been taken out of context. Yes, there are more realms, and on a certain level I agree with you 100%, but Shotokan is a specific art with specific components and a specific purpose, and all were outlined by its creators. You take it as though it is me personally making these claims when I am merely just pointing out what the style is and what its creators intended it to be used for. It is not as though I am taking my personal opinion and throwing it in your face or trying to shove it down your throat. It is what it is, I didn't create it, I am just pointing out what it is.
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/06/08 01:39 PM
Quote:
i practice shotokan and we learn how to fight, the self defence stuff. so is it a "do" or a "jutsu"? both? who cares?
You learn how to "fight", huh? Okay, I could blow this right out of the water, but I won't even begin to go there. Who cares? Well, for one, the people who actually know the style and are aware of what they are practicing and the creator's purpose behind that style care very much. Nobody is going to a "Do" to learn serious fighting, and nobody is going to a "Jutsu" to seek perfection of character. Nobody who knows what they're doing, anyways.
Quote:
i'm sure you know people who have been training karate for a long time and completly miss the idea of budo, and there are even people in karate who are complete arse holes. the good people i know in karate were good to start with, and budo never made them better people with "stronger charactures". i don't think budo works like it's advertised
No, I know many people who fall far short of the ideal of budo even though they practice budo. Everybody is human and nobody is perfect, but they accept it as a part of their training and at least try to follow it in some way as their overall journey through karatedo. If you are going to do something, do it all the way and cultivate all that it has to offer. Otherwise, don't waste your time or your instructor's time. Go 100% or go home.
Quote:
i like the physical technique of the style, so i learn that and pay lip service to the mystical crap. what we basically do in class is practice violence as a hobby, i've never been convinced that you can learn non violence through consistant practice of violence, imo.
So your karate is basically half-assed? It is all a part of your training because it is all a part of the style that you practice, which is the whole point. A lot of that stuff contains some valuable insights into the very style that you are practicing, it just happens to be communicated a little differently than what we are used to as westerners (which makes sense, seeing as how Shotokan is an Eastern martial art with an Eastern way of doing things, not Western). There are plenty of styles out there that eschew the "mystical crap" that you speak of and get right to the nitty gritty, so why not seek out something that is more in line with your own tastes? Why waste time on the "mystical crap" in the first place? You've never been convinced that you can learn nonviolence through the practice of violence? Well, you must've never heard of the saying "nobody hates war more than a soldier".
first off, are you serisouly thinking im taking this personally? this is just a discussion, a honestly not a bad one.
"No, that's bushido - yet again, KNOW THE PRODUCT!'
the difference between budo and bushido is that one is ment as self cultivation, and the other is a way a service to another man or family thats leads to your death in service. also, there are no finite translations of these terms from japanese into english, what they imply has changed over the years and will continue. so i really see this as semtanics, what you call budo is not what i call budo or bushido. not really worth arguing over.
"It is what it is, I didn't create it, I am just pointing out what it is."
yeah, and i've already told you that i practice shotokan and i don't take it as a way of life. so with out all the budo stuff, how am i still practicing a budo? you do it one way, and i do it another, im not wrong so please stop telling me what shotokan is, because im currently studying shotokan and i have a good idea about what i want it to be.
no offence intended, im just saying that i don't practice shotokan the way 99% of shotokan guys do, but it's still shotokan.
i also question the use of bowing and use of japanese terms. some people think thats it's respectfull to learn the japanese culture if your learning a japanses art, and i don't. in the japanese culture its considered polite to bow, in the west we use a hand shake, they both imply respect, but neither garentees that i respect ther person im bowing to. so, when i think about it, why not call it a thrust punch, or shake your partners hand before you work with them?
some people also think that when you line up at the begining of class you the person who calls the rest of the line to kneel and bow to the front and such, should be yelling these things like a military command, they think it's "respectfull" and i'll ask how is yelling at someone to bow respectfull? if i can say it loud enoug for them to hear it, and they do it, how am i being disrespectfull? its a habbit of the system from its military days, nothing more or less.
i know that most shotokan people don't agree with me, and if my instructors knew how i actually felt about all the stuff we get on with in calss they might not like me so much, and i think thats a characture flaw of the person who judges me really. because i don't like yelling commands at people, and i don't like it when people call me sempai in class, my parents gave me a name, why not use that? i've actually asked people to call me "mark" and not to call me sempai, and most people won't do it. they are disrespecting my wishes in favor of "budo". how silly is that?
not to mention that there are little riturals that lots of shotokan dojo use that many don't, so are the ones who don't use them all disrespectfull? for example, when myt dojo started we had a silent bow to the front, and one to the instructor, and that was it. now we have thoes still and in addition we now bow a thrid time and we all say "domo aragato gosa masu" (not spelt right, but i don't care, lol) why do we add this now? were we heathens before? are we practicing a budo now that we have this thrid bow in class? maybe we should add more bowing? or maybe less? or how about a bow to all our dead relatives? and our cars for brining us to karate so we can train in the first place? see where im going? the set of rituals you practice in class, the language you use, the set of cultural behaviours you use don't make a row of beans as to what your actually doing. just because some people in japan called what we do a budo, dosen't make it so for ever. what did they call it before it was a "do", before "jutsu"?
you call something a "jutsu", but in days gone by in japan it was called "bugei", so which word do you want to use?
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/06/08 02:10 PM
Quote:
FWIW I am generally very suspicious of Westerners who emphasise budo. I do not find it fits well into Western culture but it appeals to some because it is exotic and appears to offer a life plan. When I practiced more conventional Shotokan, I came across hordes of people who styled themselves as budoka and revelled in elements of a pseudo-Japanese identity. Nor did I find that Japanese karateka were universal models of integrity ,some were, some were not, same as in the West. Some were pretty violent bullies and on a few occasions anti-Western racists who enjoyed the idea of hundreds of fawning Westerners bowing down to them but at the same time never believing they could physically match any Japanese or understand mystical budo (in an art less than 100 years old!)
I am with Student in that I believe you can practice Shotokan perfectly well for its physical techniques (and argue another day about whether they are the optimum techniques for defence or not) and just ride the cultural gloss borrowed from Kendo and Judo. Most Shotokan clubs claim they teach self-defence as part of the art so they see some practicality clearly.
Knowing a few Japanese over the years and having a passing acquaintance with contemporary Japanese culture and business, to non-karate practicing Japanese, the sight of Western karateka dilligently practicing what they believe is an expression of authentic Japanese culture is about as odd as an Englishman like me seeing Japanese people recreating English Civil War battles, as a few groups in the UK do, interesting but odd and hardly representative of British or English culture.
Ben
It is not so much that I emphasize budo, it is more along the lines of - if you practice a budo then it is part of the total package and it is an indispensable part of your training. It doesn't fit well into Western culture, but guess what? You are practicing an Eastern martial art that was meant for practitioners within the Eastern cultural sphere. It doesn't need to fit into Western culture. You are coming to Karate, not vice versa. It wasn't created for us, and it wasn't created with us in mind. When you take something from another culture, you are adopting that culture, in a way. I see what you mean about the Japanophiles, though. It is as if they worship everything that is Japanese, Japan is their religion. However, there are plenty of level-headed people who follow the budo and subscribe to its ideals and they do just fine.
As far as styling oneself as a budoka, well, if you practice Karate you are a Karateka, if you practice a budo you are a budoka, see what I'm saying? Shotokan is a budo, so you would be a Karateka and a budoka. I have never really thought of the budo as being something mystical, and I have never seen it presented as something mystical in the serious schools that I have both trained in and had the pleasure to visit. It is merely a culture and a way of doing things, no better or worse than any other way, imo. It is an integral part of what you are practicing, though.
A lot of people claim a lot of things, doesn't mean that it is so. A lot of TKD schools claim to teach reality based self defense, but they really don't - they teach some weird disjointed "self defense" techniques that would only get you killed (and most TKD players would agree), but like you said, that is another thread.
A lot of people take things way too far and become fanatics. This applies to not only Japanese culture, but everthing in life. I have Japanese relatives who were born and bred in Japan and according to them, they see the attempts of Westerners to participate in their culture as flattering (except for the Japanophiles, they see them as annoying and retarded). I guess it all depends on the level of fanaticism, some follow the budo in moderation and some go over board with it. The latter are akin to the extreme anime fan types out there. Let's not forget the impact of romanticism within Western thought, too. I believe this accounts for a lot of the over board types out there, as this same exact behavior is very prevalent within many Western activities (Dungeons and Dragons, anyone?). It is a case of Westerners projecting their own culture onto something foreign that was never meant to be interpreted through that culture.
"I could blow this right out of the water, but I won't even begin to go there."
don't bring up that shotkan practioners can't use their art to fight, its not worth your time to deal with all the "flaming" that would follow, lol.
"Who cares? Well, for one, the people who actually know the style and are aware of what they are practicing and the creator's purpose behind that style care very much."
why does what i do have anything to do with anyone else? if they i'm defilking "their" art because i don't do it all then thats their problem, not mine, lol.
" Nobody is going to a "Do" to learn serious fighting, and nobody is going to a "Jutsu" to seek perfection of character"
i told you a few times now that just because someone calls what i do a "do", dosent mean that it is. it's intended use is what i intended to use it for. funikoshi is dead, and i can do what i want with what i know.
"Nobody who knows what they're doing, anyways."
your funny.
"If you are going to do something, do it all the way and cultivate all that it has to offer. Otherwise, don't waste your time or your instructor's time. Go 100% or go home."
i would arguee that you are limiting what fighting arts have to offer by using very limiting terms like "do" and "jutsu". i do train 100%, thanks for implying that because i don't give a darn about the dojo kun that i don't do real karate.
"So your karate is basically half-assed?"
yeah, thats exactly what i said...
"It is all a part of your training because it is all a part of the style that you practice, which is the whole point."
the dojo kun, and the niju kun are not a part of every dojo. not every dojo recites them after class, so you go ahead and call every one who doesn't use these things regulary in class half asseres, see how far you get with that.
"There are plenty of styles out there that eschew the "mystical crap" that you speak of "
more then we could count.
"so why not seek out something that is more in line with your own tastes?"
the only thing in town is TKD and shotokan, and i made my choice. until i go somewhere that gives me access to judo again, im with shotokan.
"You've never been convinced that you can learn nonviolence through the practice of violence? Well, you must've never heard of the saying "nobody hates war more than a soldier". "
is war a "do" or a "jutsu". now, this might blow your mind, but if you can learn peace from war? then is it a stretch to learn peace through practice of what you call a "jutsu"?
basically, you are not able to say that shotokan IS a "do" because not every one practices it as one. and if they don't do it they way it was "intened" they are not wrong, or half assed. the initial intention of a style is nothing. just one mans idea of what he wanted done. i can garentee you that what ever art you practice your not practicing it as it was intended to. tell me i'm wrong, i've herd that before, but i'm usually not far off.
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/06/08 03:02 PM
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first off, are you serisouly thinking im taking this personally? this is just a discussion, a honestly not a bad one.
Nah, not taking it seriously and sorry if I came off that way. It is really good debate and I appreciate your feedback.
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the difference between budo and bushido is that one is ment as self cultivation, and the other is a way a service to another man or family thats leads to your death in service. also, there are no finite translations of these terms from japanese into english, what they imply has changed over the years and will continue. so i really see this as semtanics, what you call budo is not what i call budo or bushido. not really worth arguing over.
Not arguing, just debating. We are talking about what Shotokan is, and I am merely presenting what Shotokan is according to the man who is credited with its creation, that's all. Btw, you just showed that there is a clear difference between the two, yourself.
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yeah, and i've already told you that i practice shotokan and i don't take it as a way of life. so with out all the budo stuff, how am i still practicing a budo?
Because Shotokan IS a budo! Along with Judo, Aikido, and Kendo.
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you do it one way, and i do it another, im not wrong so please stop telling me what shotokan is, because im currently studying shotokan and i have a good idea about what i want it to be.
The thread is about what Shotokan is (or least this little part of it 
), so that is why I was explaining about what it is, it was not to spite you, and I am humbly sorry if it seemed that way. I don't think that you are wrong, different, but certainly not wrong.
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no offence intended, im just saying that i don't practice shotokan the way 99% of shotokan guys do, but it's still shotokan.
I am not offended in the least, and I think that you have do nothing but present your views in a very clear and educated manner. I was relating everthing to Funakoshi and his Shotokan conventions and I didn't mean to imply anything about anyone's training (I am still figuring this whole forum thing out 
).
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i also question the use of bowing and use of japanese terms. some people think thats it's respectfull to learn the japanese culture if your learning a japanses art, and i don't. in the japanese culture its considered polite to bow, in the west we use a hand shake, they both imply respect, but neither garentees that i respect ther person im bowing to. so, when i think about it, why not call it a thrust punch, or shake your partners hand before you work with them?
I respect your opinions. The whole point is that you are not practicing a Western martial art, you are practicing an Eastern martial art and that is how its done. It is part of the whole experience. I don't think that you are being disrespectful by not doing those things, just that you are missing out on the overall experience and perhaps going through some needless annoyances by practicing something that involves doing or at least encouraging you to do those things which you find so offensive.
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some people also think that when you line up at the begining of class you the person who calls the rest of the line to kneel and bow to the front and such, should be yelling these things like a military command, they think it's "respectfull" and i'll ask how is yelling at someone to bow respectfull? if i can say it loud enoug for them to hear it, and they do it, how am i being disrespectfull? its a habbit of the system from its military days, nothing more or less.
Again, it's a cultural thing. You are practicing a style that comes from another culture and has conventions that are based in another culture. The views on these things are totally different and shouldn't be looked at from a Western perspective because they are not Western conventions. You are taking something that was created in one context and applying it to in a completely different and often counter context. Imo, it is no more disrespectful for them to "yell" at you as it is for you to refuse to bow or be called sempai (which is actually a compliment in that culture). It is a matter of cultural perspective, and you are practicing something that comes from another culture.
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i know that most shotokan people don't agree with me, and if my instructors knew how i actually felt about all the stuff we get on with in calss they might not like me so much, and i think thats a characture flaw of the person who judges me really. because i don't like yelling commands at people, and i don't like it when people call me sempai in class, my parents gave me a name, why not use that? i've actually asked people to call me "mark" and not to call me sempai, and most people won't do it. they are disrespecting my wishes in favor of "budo". how silly is that?
Hmmm, I believe that you are missing the point to all of it. Nobody is trying to disrespect you in any way. As a matter of fact, the fact that they call you sempai is a sure sign that they not only respect you, but they actually hold you in high regard. Nodoby is disrespecting your wishes in favor of "budo", the things they do is a part of budo, and since you practice a budo, it comes with the territory. This is why I say that I think that you would be better served finding something else that fits better with your personal tastes. If it offends you that much then why even put up with it? Why waste your time and money to do something that obviously makes you so uncomfortable when you can spend your time and money in something where you don't have to put up with those things?
I don't think that your teachers would be angry at you if you came clean with them and told them what was on your mind, they would more than likely respect you even more for being a man about it and being straight up with them (if they are decent and mature teachers, that is). I did the same thing in one of my classes when I told my instructor that I thought he was yanking me around and that he wasn't teaching me anything remotely useful for real world self defense. I thought that I was surely done as his student when I did that, but guess what, he actually thought even more highly of me for having the courage to be that open and that honest with him and he even made one of the club officers. Of course, he offered to teach me some "self defense" at his home outside of class if that is what I really wanted from him.
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not to mention that there are little riturals that lots of shotokan dojo use that many don't, so are the ones who don't use them all disrespectfull? for example, when myt dojo started we had a silent bow to the front, and one to the instructor, and that was it. now we have thoes still and in addition we now bow a thrid time and we all say "domo aragato gosa masu" (not spelt right, but i don't care, lol) why do we add this now? were we heathens before? are we practicing a budo now that we have this thrid bow in class? maybe we should add more bowing? or maybe less? or how about a bow to all our dead relatives? and our cars for brining us to karate so we can train in the first place? see where im going? the set of rituals you practice in class, the language you use, the set of cultural behaviours you use don't make a row of beans as to what your actually doing. just because some people in japan called what we do a budo, dosen't make it so for ever. what did they call it before it was a "do", before "jutsu"?
Nobody is a heathen and nobody was even suggesting that you or anybody who trains like you is a heathen. You are looking at it in Western terms again - do it like we do it or you are evil and backwards (and you even used a Western word ). Not at all, my good man. Neither are you disrespectful, as I said above, just different. It is not a matter of the Japanese calling it a budo as that is what the man who created it made it to be and intended it to be. All of those things that you mention are part of the package, that is what I am saying. You are taking the bowing thing too far - do you try to shake your car's hand or hug it? No, that is nonsense, but you do shake people's hands and hug your loved ones as a sign of respect. That is all it simply is - another culture's way of saying I respect you. "Do" and "Jutsu"? They didn't call it anything before it was "Do" because it didn't exist before it was "Do", it has always been "Do" because that is what it is and that is what it was created as. Now, go back before Shotokan and you find something more along the lines of "Jutsu", you know, like the Okinawan stuff.
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you call something a "jutsu", but in days gone by in japan it was called "bugei", so which word do you want to use?
Shotokan was never a bugei. None of the "Do" were bugei. The "Jutsu" were - JuJutsu, AikiJutsu, Kenjutsu, etc. These were military methods with no focus on character building. The "Do" were more recent de-fanged versions of the "Jutsu" with the primary purpose being Japanese character development. "Jutsu" were indeed bugei.
Again, sorry if my posts sounded personal and argumentative, that was not my intention at all. It was in the spirit of debate and if I have crossed the line then I humbly apologize. I get really passionate about the martial arts.
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/06/08 04:26 PM
You know, I will say this. Shotokan is a budo, but it is not just a budo. It is many things to many people, all of them equally valid so long as they meet the needs of the ones who practice them. It started out as being strictly something, but things grow and evolve, after all, that is how Shotokan came to be in the first place. It may be a "Do", but you know what, with the bunkai movement, it is fast becoming a "Jutsu" with a heavy emphasis on the studying of applications and training focused mostly on training those applications for self defense. Student, I think that you make an excellent point concerning the turn off of Japanese character building to most of the people who are not Japanese (and you too, Barad). While it may be the original intention of the style, it is not the final intention of the style and I believe Funakoshi said something to the effect that Karate must continue to grow. I think that is one of the things that made TKD that much more interesting to me - it was allowed to grow and have diversity, and it was not required to rigidly adhere to certain conventions. When Karate left Okinawa and went to Japan, it changed to reflect the tastes and conventions of the Japanese. I believe that it is only right for Karate to be allowed to do the same in our neck of the woods. So, I guess that I am saying that we all are "right" concerning this area of Shotokan, we just have different aims and viewpoints. I am old school, so I guess that provides a better view of where I am coming from. However, I am also progressive and believe that nothing should stand still forever, either. I see the "official" definition of Shotokan is being exactly what its creators made it to be, but I also believe that since Shotokan has grown and evolved in the hands of others that the definition can and should be expanded to include the changes made to the style, as well. Okay, I am now off of my nerdy soapbox.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 05:51 AM
Yugen,
I am not sure there is any definitive form of Shotokan per se. There are a multitude of Shotokan groups with different emphases, some physical, some defensive, some spiritual, some sporting in various measures. Politics (and sometimes business) dictates that some or many Shotokan groups will dismiss other groups as inauthentic.
The budo stuff, as I said, is mostly grafted on to Okinawan physical practices (i.e. derivatives of tode) from Judo and Kendo (along with belts and gradings and a formal syllabus), as Kano was very supportive of Funakoshi in the early days and Funakoshi wanted his art to be accepted in Japan. Karate is not historically a Japanese budo art in my understanding and these things are relatively newly attached to karate. They also reflect 1920's/30's/40's Japan and are thus an anachronistic mishmash of Zen, Shinto and good old-fashioned Japanese militarism, echoed unconsciously in the shouting and militaristic style of many Shotokan classes. IMO this "budo" has no more to teach you morally than attaching any other religious-political-ideological cocktail to self-defence practices. In other words, it is irrelevant. Why not go to church instead if you fancy a bit of moral guidance?
Ben
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 11:12 AM
I understand, Barad. I am not trying to come off as one who jam the budo down somebody's throat (even though my previous posts would suggest otherwise, my bad), just trying to maintain some form of objectivity by going back to the source and presenting things in a way that is consistent with the aims and conventions of the style's founders. As far as budo, well, Shotokan certainly is a Gendai Budo (apart from a Koryu Budo, which would be a historical budo art). Using the word Karate is way too general because there are so many forms of Karate out there, some of them budo, some of them sport, some of them something else. We were talking specifically about Shotokan Karate, which to my understanding, is a budo along with Judo, Aikido, and Kendo (though not a Koryu Budo like those three, but definitely a budo, nonetheless).
Now, the budo teaching you something morally or giving you moral guidance? I agree - it doesn't teach you anything like that - BY WESTERN STANDARDS. I find it funny that you automatically attached church to the discussion because budo is not a religion and interpreting it as such represents yet another misunderstanding of what it is. What I get in church is something entirely different from what I get in budo because the two offer two different things. Budo is merely the way that Japanese choose to do things within their art, not some perfect, ultra-clean religion that Westerners try to make it out to be because they choose to interpret it in Judeo-Christian terms. Ditto for "perfection of character", we tend to interpret it in Western terms when in fact, the "perfection of character" that is being referred to is a Japanese convention, not a *Judeo-Christian/I'm right and you're wrong, you heathen* perspective. It is the "flavor" of Japanese martial arts (well, not all Japanese martial arts, but certainly the one that we are talking about here). What I see is a prime example of the cultural barrier - something was created in another culture to meet the needs and conventions of people within that particular culture, then somebody outside of that cultural sphere participates in it, misunderstands it (or at least, misunderstands the role that it plays within it), and proceeds to dismiss it or worse due to this misunderstanding. I personally don't fancy any moral guidance from a martial art as I don't adhere to the *Karate Kid Mystical Karate From Mr. Miyagi* line of thinking. However, I believe that in practicing something, you should practice the whole thing to get the maximum value out of it. Plus you may find something that you might like, and if you don't, at least you kept an open mind to another culture and expanded your own horizons by that much. You don't have to follow budo, but imho it doesn't make sense to practice a budo if you don't subscribe to budo, it is rather backwards. If I hate dairy or am lactose intolerant, I am not going to eat cheese and eggs anyways and then complain about the effects and talk about how much I hate dairy. However, that is nothing more than opinion, to each his/her own, and if you are satisfied then that is what counts. There is certainly nothing wrong with taking something and personalizing it so that it makes sense within your own culture. That is actually a good thing to do, but you should at least understand the totality of it and what it entails before doing such a thing.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 11:33 AM
Yugen,
I hear what you are saying-maybe it was just my experience with Shotokan. I spent 20 years doing it (to 3rd dan) before switching to Kissaki 5 years ago. I have to say the presentation of the 20 precepts as a comprehensive life guide and vague talk about perfection of character through dilligent practice of Shotokan were extremely common from Japanese and Western instructors alike. To me this felt pretty much like moral guidance, which was not what I signed up for. Also, I rarely saw anyone who appeared to have benefited from that aspect-happy, good people would have been the same without karate most likely and violent bullies were still violent bullies (including a few Japanese instructors on pedestals) with every kind of person in between. Nevertheless it did not stop me enjoying the physical practice for many years, until I ultimately found Kissaki, which I find more practical, with a better understanding of the kata and the principles of movement and application.
Ben
can i ask what "style" or orginization of shotokan you belonged to when you trained?
Posted by: Barad
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 01:43 PM
Sure-I was in the KUGB (Karate Union of Great Britain) for a few years, a now-defunct (I think) organisation then headed by the late Enoeda Sensei and linked to the JKA. I spent two years, rather wasted, at a Shotokan group I forget the name of under BASKA (British All Styles Karate Assoc) and then spent many years under Mike Springer, now a 7th Dan in his 60s (I would guess by now) with his small organisation Ashanti, a superb Shotokan technician, especially his kata, also highly graded in Okinawan kobudo. In fifteen years or so, I never saw him put a foot wrong, as far as I can remember, always fast, fluid, perfect-looking Shotokan. Like I said, the last five or six years I have been with Kissaki, ultimately headed by Vince Morris, which I really enjoy because it is totally focused on practicality and it gives me the answers to the questions I always had about the meaning and application of the Shotokan kata syllabus that I spent so long learning.
Ben
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 07:52 PM
Greetings all, apologies for not jumping in sooner.
Much of what has been said in this thread I feel is based on some extremely common misconceptions about Shotokan and about Japanese martial arts in general. These misconceptions are so common they are taken as raw unavoidable fact, but in actuality they are based on opinion and nothing else.
The first is the notion that Shotokan was not created to be a fighting art. This is so far from correct it is amazing that it is so widely held as true.
Nothing of Gichin Funakoshi's writings supports this. When he gets old he points out that he feels karate's place in a modern non violent world (not his exact words but certainly the context in which he was writing) was as a means of building health and character in young Japanese men and women. Every thing he says about Karate (shotokan) in both Karate Jutsu (his first book) and Karatedo Kyohan is about guiding the student to develop fighting ability.
It's been shown on this forum that the rationale behind the elongation of Shotokan stances was based on developing speed and strength for close range fighting.
Shotokans only problem for fighting historically is simply that the Japanese stopped listening to Funakoshi before he taught them how to use what they were practicing. In that abyss of information they poured many myths and misconceptions.
The other big misconception discussed is the notion that a do is any less combative than a jutsu. I've written about this at length before so I'll be brief here.
We all know that technique goes out the window when adrenalin and fear hit you in real life fights. Before people had "animal day" training etc, they worked on disciplining and calming the mind by building determination and confidence through hard, punishing training. This is Do. The flowery good character stuff is a follow-on from this. Do is the natural progression of jutsu.
Now while you can train the Do aspect without ever learning to fight, I am writing this to point out that the label of Do is simply not an immediate implication of a lack of fighting ability, it was simply added to express the psycho-spiritual aims of a particular schools training. An extra dimension to a fighting art as opposed to the removal of anything.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 08:12 PM
Barad,
I hear what you are saying about the Shotokan in those vids. For me they are good examples of typical Shotokan. I have come to feel that this long range linear style has enough strong points to be effective, particularly in the sloppy mess of big hits that is a real fight. Like you I've met few who could do it, but how many ever trained in such a way to develop that. It is in my view the training which is at fault not the style, and all it takes to adapt is for someone to start throwing real world punches at real world distance in one of those "traditional" shotokan clubs. A few weeks of training like that with continous drills and they'd be more than competent to get into one outside a nightclub after a few pints.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 08:18 PM
Posted by: dandjurdjevic
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/07/08 10:54 PM
I particularly like from 2:10 to 2:29! Talk about a big lead-up to an anti-climax!
Posted by: Yugen83
Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! - 10/10/08 08:47 AM
I see what you are saying, Shonuff. Perhaps I got a little carried away, and I definitely did not mean to offend anyone or imply that their training was somehow less relevant than anybody elses. I don't believe that Shotokan *can't* be used as a viable means of self defense (anything can be used as self defense if it is trained for that purpose), just that according to a lot of what has been presented about Shotokan karate would suggest that self defense is not the style's first or primary aim, at least not "official" Shotokan. Such things as the 20 precepts, the original bunkai not being passed on, the changes that were made to the kata by Funakoshi, and the fact that it was being introduced to school children as physical fitness and changed/defanged to reflect this new role would suggest that Shotokan's primary purpose was no longer self-defense. Plus the movements that are labelled "blocks" when they are something else, and presented that way for the most part (unless you read some Anslow and Abernathy
). You can see where my own misconceptions arise in my attempt at defining what is "good" Shotokan
. So, my apologies to all for coming off like a retard. By the way, I am surprised that nobody posted this vid yet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_zmL6BRCOA