Give me that Old Style Karate!

One thing is "Old Stuff" sells. If someone puts Secrets, Forbidden, or Old School in the title of their book/DVD they will sell copies.

I like seeing the old videos just as much as seeing any good Karate video. I would like to see more old sparring mainly because I wonder what the rules and equipment were like. I am really into different types of sparring.

good points and I agree with you. my point is, there are some things that have no basis for privacy, given the decision was made to show anything.

If 'documenting' (agreed that there are different definitions of the word) a fighting style, I would think that the first and foremost thing that would need to be explained is what sets -their- style/training method apart from the others? It's never mentioned beyond generalities.

I'm not saying it was non-existant, but there is no fighting philosophy there - just rote kata movements, pre-arrainged kumite and strength training. does it not give the impression that is all there is? why would someone want to give that impression, if the goal is to propegate a training method which they (probably) believe is optimized for their assumed SD/fighting style? or maybe that's not what was ever claimed until after the fact...

let's set aside trying to assume what was in the mind's of the style founders. We'll never know. Today, is it good to only show basics which are perhaps only abstractly connected with SD skill-building? Telling the student that the advanced stuff comes later? Compare that with 'modern' methods of styles which show openly to someone how to defend themselves practically from day one? There is no culture of 'secrets' or ladders to 'advanced technique' - only stuff that works and does not work, evidenced by direct experience in those workings. no abstraction or delayed holdings of lessons.

Given all the frauds, which makes more sense today? Perpetuating a culture of esoterics is what led to the great majority of karateka not really knowing what to do with their kata beyond perfecting the body mechanics of it. Was that the vision of the style founders? To have people dancing their way thru the art and going thru motions, - then just teaching those motions to the next gen?

Clearly the esoteric system of propegating an art hasn't worked. maybe it did 100+ years ago on a small island of village groups, but the model seems out of place in the here and now. sure it's promoted an art to many who do the aerobic activity of karate-bo. not to mention that passing on the wisdom of the peaceful mindset, good character, etc. All good things, but without the function of the core priniples openly accessible, non-interpretable and actionable...there is going to be loss of that center which everything else is surrounded.
The development of character, the strength building, the mental toughness - all skills/attributes that can be developed elsewhere. It becomes an egg full of air, with the promise of being filled later.

Thats what I see when I see old footage like this thread's video and old publications showing drills like this: the documentation of an art's air. The building of a shell with nothing inside and no indication of how it goes from empty to filled.

yes, old footage could be just showing the basics and non-secret/public stuff...and could also be that they simply didn't have much more fighting skill substance than what is shown.

maybe.

Ed,

You write "The old footage I've seen only delivers the same promise: keep doing this and you'll progress to bigger and better stuff - yet they don't detail what that is exactly according to their theory or proven method."

I disagree, it's just a glimpse of those people. I don't see any promise with it and believe you're incorrect trying to assume that's what they're showing.

Nor is there any reason to assume more than what is shown.

Training then was just with an instructor. The early movies were nothing but experiements not tools.

The early books were written for on purpose, to try and impress the Japanese martial establishment that Okinawan martial arts had merit, not a training tools. And remember that drive was driven hardest by Miyagi Chonju who gained the highest recognition, along with Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu and Nakashone.

Still that they took that time shared more about the past than any other source.

I posted that drill more for the 'uniforms' being worn than anything else. I remember the older Okinawan instrutor explaining that Sanchin, if it wasn't done 'naked' wasn't truly Sanchin, at least in his lineage.

Hey if you don't like what's shown you don't have to do it.

I'd still would rather see older performance when the occassion rises.

It beats the **** out of much of the modern, IMVHO.

Ed, do you know of anyone in the here and now who openly uses modern media to show anything more?

Lots of people talk about having methods superior to the outdated (and usually very pointedly Japanese) training methods, but with the exception of Dan Djurdjevic I can't think of anyone who shares anything new or different to what is in the old footage.

I was referring to all older docs/films, not just this. and yes you are right, at least they did take the time to show something. What clothing is worn during training, has more to do with climate and culture than a measure of anything else. naked one-step robot kumite or similar drill with a parker and ear muffs on is still robot kumite. IMO.

good point. I guess it's easier to not show and have people wonder, than it is to show and explain.

Sho as regards karate, while there is a lot being shown, the more interesting details are rarely displayed. {note for other arts this isn't necessarily the case. There is a lot of effective aikido training and siliat training that get into the depths of how their art can be applied, whether you care is of course your own issue.]

Why would most want to share further.
1. the older tradition, except for public displays, the rest is private, and that is still more the rule. Nobody has to put it out there for our amusement.
2. Those who care about their arts realize what is involved is a very long process, and to show a piece of the end result isn't really giving anything anyway.

Look I'm a nice guy and am willing to share on my dojo floor with several choices.

As technique of no technique I may show anything to someone who drops by because I know the likelihood of their being able to use it is very small and if they can they're welcome to it because they earned it.

If someone wants to train with me formally I never turn people away, but I do take the time to make sure they know what they're doing and if that turns them away, that's ok.

The same applies to those who have prior trianing, from a few months to several decades. I promise them nothing of their prior training will be of any use and they will have to start from the beginning, and then they find out I wasn't kidding. I also let them know it will take about 1 year before the begin to see how it's working together, and every time those who've joined are asked if I was right.

Of course I don't charge for instruction, don't really want new students with prior trianing for some things they're incapable of getting the way I want becuse of that training, but so be if if they choose to train.

While I've shared a small bit of my students work, it's only to a point. The rest isn't video it's live on the floor.

Victor

I wasn't suggesting that anyone should share anything, mearly pointing out that while we can make criticisms of the old video footage, there isn't actually anything much different going on now.

I personally think that while we may not want to show all our systems secrets out of a sense of pride in our achievements and as a means of safe-gaurding the integrity of our arts, there is nothing wrong with sharing ideas, particularly as regards training methods and drills.

The same notions of a veil of secrecy which surround the more advanced levels of training in Karate in general are precisely the same lines the seniors of Shotokan have put forward to keep their mystique and their hold over their organiations. Spend 20 years doing basics and you'll be ready for the advanced levels, which are actually more basics.

As with the seniors of Shotokan, I'm more inclined to believe that if it isn't shown it isn't there, or at least it isn't enough of a focus to be significant.
People show what they do, what they train and feel is important. If they show seniors doing 3-step kumite then even though it may not be the extent of their system it is something they feel is important enough to record or demonstrate.

Shotokan is the best example of a group of people who can talk for days about the depth of their art while never actually training anything other than repetition of kihon kata and sport kumite. However the more experience I gain of other styles the more I see the same behaviour.

I don't expect every style or every martial artist who thinks they have something different to put a video up, but the law of averages suggests that there would be at least a few.

The fact of the matter is that the old way is old. We live in the information age with video and internet in the palm of most western people's hands. We do not take our arts to war, most will never even have to fight in self defense and certainly not against challengers from other styles of MA. There is no great need for secrecy in the modern age and everything to gain from sharing. Even with that belief I understand why a degree of reservedness is preferable, but I'm not convinced that every film of wooden uninventive basics hides a greater depth in the practitioners knowledge.

Sho,

Well I'm off to work and can't fully respond till this evening. When you suggest Shotokan is something most of those definitions are very different from the 10 years of Shotokan I trained with Tristan Sutrisno who does have decades of training layers and technique studies that take a very long time to get good enough to use. Then again he makes them work.

I even have some rather extensive video records of his teachings but have no intention of sharing them nor is it his inclination to do so either.

People share for their own purposes. His fathers training came from study in Japan in the 1930's and Funakoshi Sensei was his instructor to some extent. Of course he isn't JKA either.

Will chat further later.

You're teasing Shonuff now Victor!

Even I want to see these videos!

Interesting thread. I think both Ed and Victor are right...historical records are essentially dead. It wouldn't be a problem if people didn't mistake martial arts training for historical studies.

Victor,

My point was simply that I don't believe people hide what is the bulk of their arts behind what is a minor part when they are choosing what to put on film.

You've mentioned Mr Sutrisno before, I'm sure the footage you have shows something of this layered application practice that you've talked about. I'm sure of this because the way you speak of him it sounds like application was an important part of his training.

As far as pointing out Shotokanka who train with more depth than my previous post credits, I know that there are many, however there are far more IMO that don't.
You could add Vince Morris and the whole of Kissaki Kai to the list those who train with depth or even Kenneth Funakoshi.

Actually since they have both chosen to share their work why not take those two?

Morris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UYvr-PdOyI

Funakoshi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWaYlujL1Y

Two completely different approaches to the same subject.

The thing is I know K Funakoshi works his applications in much the same way as Mr Morris. His bunkai are divided by level, the higher levels being the more real, more damaging and effective techniques. Yet we have two completely different visions recorded.

K Funakoshi holds to the Traditional ways of Shotokan. The kind of drill you see in that video is what his students train in. It is how they pass gradings, it is how they train. They talk about the "higher level" applications, but they do not do them, they persist in useless non-functional drills and wait to be spoon fed anything useful at seminars. Then because of lack of practice they have huge difficulty mastering anything beyond the simplest techniques at the most useless of ranges.

Each has chosen to show what is important to them. Each has given a fair reflection of what they do. What they haven't shown is the extent of what they know, but what is the point of a fully stocked bar if nobody can ever get a drink?

Dan/Sho,

I wasn't trying to tease talking about Tristan's art. I have many clinics on videotape he did training my students in various portions of his art, but he alwasy requested I do not share them further and I have respected that. If anyone drops in I'm quite willing to let them see them, but they don't truly make the point, which is where I want to start.

I trained with Tristan over 10 years, never as his student but as a friend that he choose to share exactly what he was training his senior students in as their studies progressed. Very different from being a senior student, but it did share a bit of the shape of his art.

I first met Tristan at tournaments competing against him. Anyone who knew him there had absolutely no idea of his art, because tournaments are what they are. He was superb in our region in kumite, but kumite was never, ever part of his classes, and his skills didn't come from playing tag but from extensive two person drills.

He was (and in fact still is) explosive in his technique, and his senior students on more than a few occasions could attest what happens even when the good aren't perfect, a lot, a very lot of pain is involved.

His Shotokan was based on Funakoshi sensei's teachings, he was insistant that karate was not to be used for violence, and from his trianing it's why I fully ascribe that only children think the purpose of karate is to fight or destroy.

Yet he was extremely potentially destructive, both philosophy and ability at the same time.

His father's approach to bunkai is beyond analyzing kata, the applications, study of which really begins at sho-dan, have almost nothing to do with the kata, so a kata becomes a holder for dozens of destructive sequences, and at each of their 5 levels of black belt all of the bunkai change. I'm not sure but that their techniques number in the several thousands, but not walk throughs. His art becomes more committed and complicated as the studetns dan studies advance, but he did all of them like a hot knife cutting through butter.

In my area there is not much of the karate groups that reside in Europe. Forgetting all of the mcDoho groups, most of the traditional approaches are Shorin, Goju, Uechi, Isshinryu and other Okinawan originated groups.

I've seen a lot of 'americanized Shotokan' but the JKA keep to themselves. But some of the Americanized Shotokan I've seen were awesome fighters.

That is what makes all of the generalizations, such as Shotokan (or Isshinryu) is such and such.

If you would watch Tristan's tapes you would say he was a very good technian at what he was showing, but have no idea of the context how his entire art fits together, nor do I, I only know of the portions I've been exposed to.

We only should be worrying about what we're doing. If someone uses 3 step sparring (I do not) that doesn't make it worthless. I do accept if that is all they do there is something missing, but it also may only be a very, very, very small part of what they do, and have value, great value in the right program.

IMVHO, being Indonesian, the Sutrisno program is a total amalgamation of Shotokan, Indonesian Siliat, 1930's Aikido training, Kobudo and other arts. Each a separate course of trianing, but in his kata bunkai all of them intertwined to form a very destructive total.

When the internet age began I started looking at what others in Shotokan were doing, and I haven't seen anything resembling his studies, but fully accept that just because something is being shown, it doesn't mean that represents the entire picture. Perhaps it does, and perhaps, it's just what you're seeing.

Frankly if a group is only doing long distance 3 step sparring I want them to continue to train that way and all in their lineage keep doing so forever. I bet if you think hard you can realize why, so I won't critize them if that's what they do.... ahem!

Sho, interesting videos, I had heard of Vince Morris but never looked him up. The truth is from my various instructors and my own studies I have more than any 4 people can begin to study.

IMVHO there is no comparison of the Sutrisno movement to what the Morris and/or Funakoshi vidoes are showing. It's like if you took Tristan and put him in quicksand he'd still be 2 or 3 times faster than they are. Which btw is a critical portion of his advanced training, it truly covers things that are advanced and working on blinding speed in all those techniques is part of it, and it is a logical method to do so, not just being told go faster.

I have a grasp of how his studies proceed, but my own choose a different direction that I fully belive in.

I accept your analysis of those you've seen or trained with, but not having those experiences and very, very different ones with the same name, see things a bit differently.

We really never know anything but what happens on our dojo floor. Cherish that, work hard and with the others no matter what they do the best. If their efforts are flawed, cool.

It is better for you spirit to focus on the best, and not running down those you don't agree with.

And I guarantee you the purpose of karate is not to become a destructive fighter, and if you disagree with me perhaps I'll introduce you to Tristan.

Me I'm old, fat, slow and decrepit and my art works best when I'm behind you and you don't know what's happening.....

Except for the obvious Shotokan movement it looks a lot like the way Bando/Kali or Indoasian training, they often trained wear bare escessene with sharp weapons!!

The drills are definitely 'dead' drills, they are very similar to the kiso kumites we have beginners do sometimes, it's a fine drill to get people used to moving in stance etc. etc. but beyond that it doesn't have alot of function.

Still, I would never assume that video like this is what defined someone's training by any stretch.

Training basics is training basics, alone or in 2 man drill.
To become good at something, training and maintaining basics are very important.

The old 'nude'footage lets me think about sandangi.
Sandangi is the first partner-drill we teach. It has multiple function. For beginner it is a starting point for learning partner work, distance, getting used to contact etc... . For intermediate student focus on execution of stance, technique and add power even after contact to force partner to use power too and understand concept of 'sticky hand' (muchime). For skilled students add speed in execution. Do it till you are exhausted, can you still keep balance, power, timing and speed ??? It's just simple basics right !!!

Then do it in beach sand, when it's hot and you sweatting, without gi to absorb the sweat. It's only basics but it can become a real power training with accidents and bruises once you start training towards exhaustion. Can you still maintain the basics ???

Training basics is the key to training advanced stuff. I do sandan-gi regulary.